Beguiler > Bard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler > Bard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Demonwolf
07-05-06, 06:34 PM First off, lemme make it absolutely clear that this is not a debate about whether the beguiler as a class is innately superior to the bard as a class. Even if there's merit to that debate, that is distinctly not what I want to talk about here. My issue is with a specific character who's playing a bard in a very shortly upcoming game, who may or may not be better off as a beguiler.

The thing is that I've known this player for a while, and the one time he played a bard during that time was the one time he was absolutely unbearable as a player. The issue came because of the fact that he wasn't really essential to the group as a bard- the fighter outdid him in combat (obviously) and the cleric/rogue and my psi-rogue together covered utility casting, healing and skillmonkeyism well enough. This plus the fact that he was something of a newbie (and still is in terms of optimization) made it so that he was essentially unnecessary to the group (a tough situation for any player), which led to him complaining and being passive-aggressive throughout essentially the whole of the game, eventually leading to the quitting of one of our players and the disbanding of the group shortly after.

But in the game immediately before that one, he played the cleric and was probably the most essential character to the entire group, since he was not only an effective healer but also a surrogate tank alongside the monk. We had absolutely no problems during that game.

Anyway, I recently started playing with him again about a year after our ill-fated first group, and the first character he chose was a fighter/barb, and overall he's been dealing atleast as much damage as any of the other characters and has played a fairly important role. And the main reason I suggested him as a player to the DM of our current group is because he's been taking meds to help him with his dealings with other people, and they've actually been helping. A lot of the issues with his temper that were a liability before have faded away to a pretty good extent, and his recent D&Ding has actually been something of a testament to that.

The problem is that he's going to be playing a bard again, and this one is focused almost exclusively on spellcasting- his dexterity is decent at best, plus he's using a crossbow without even having rapid reload, so I don't see him doing much in combat, not to mention the fact that he wanted to focus on an acrobatic style of combat, which is pretty much impossible without rapid reload... I've also looked at his spell list, and pretty much everything there with the exception of Cure Moderate is on the beguiler list, as are pretty much all of the skills he's maxed out. Not to mention the fact that a lot of his spells are offensive debuffs and DC-based, and even though his charisma isn't bad, I don't see it being a wise path to follow considering we'll be fighting some tough opponents. The only real loss he'd incur for switching to Beguiler is one point of BaB (the game's at ECL 5), which is mostly unnecessary and easily compensated. Even bardic music, which he had at his disposal last time, is pretty much negated by the presence of the other bard in the party.

So I showed him the beguiler, and he agreed that it fit his character really well mechanically, but turned it down because it didn't fit the flavor of his character. The thing is that his character was already a rogue before he switched to bard, and he based his decision not to switch on the flavor text of the beguiler. The problem with this is that IMO the beguiler pretty much falls alongside the Incarnum and CPsi classes in that it's a breath of fresh air mechanically and exists to do things that previous classes couldn't, but flavor-wise it's meant to be fairly malleable and the published flavor text is really just filler. The beguiler is meant to be a casting rogue, no more, no less, but of course they can't actually say that. I tried to explain this to him, but he decided to stick with his decision to go bard, but the more and more I look at his character the more and more I wonder if I should have stuck to my guns.

Anyway, I'm debating whether I should rekindle my attempts to convince him to switch to beguiler at the risk of seeming manipulative and pushy, or whether I should let him play as a bard at the risk of having history repeat itself.

Any thoughts?
Archmage Atrus
07-05-06, 07:16 PM No. It's his character. Do you want someone else pushing their ideas on you and telling you to enjoy them? I sure don't.
Board_Rider
07-05-06, 07:26 PM Let him play the Bard. If DMing allow his character to shine by revolving parts of the campaign around his skills and mechanical strengths.
Otto the Bugbear
07-05-06, 09:13 PM Let him play what he wants. At best, I'd talk to the DM and make sure it's not just one big dungeon crawl. While a good bard can certainly hold his own in a dungeon setting, they really do shine brighter when given NPC/PC interaction time.

In short, you did the best you could. Don't try to make his character be what you want it to be. Otherwise, just make up the character yourself and play it yourself, and tell him to stay home.

Cheers

Otto :)
Demonwolf
07-05-06, 09:19 PM Spoke to him about the beguiler again (made sure not to be pushy) and he looked at it again, without regard to the flavor text this time, and still wants to stick to the bard, so I get the feeling he won't be dissatisfied with his choice of his character as long as I ensure there's some use for his character and specifically his character, however minor (and it most likely won't be minor considering it's set purely in an urban setting). Also told him about the fact that there's another bard in the party and that music effects don't stack, and it didn't seem to faze him either, so I'm much more optimistic now.

Thanks for all of your advice.
Keira
07-05-06, 09:59 PM You should have him read the boards, see how people rp Bards, and/or what problems people playing Bards seem to have. If he has a good idea what his character's role is in the party (he seems to have a pretty good idea too) then he should be alright. I'd just chalk up his past history to being a newbie. :D
Archmage_Vall
07-05-06, 11:28 PM I'd just say, "You sure you want to play a bard? I remember the last time, you didn't seem to be having much fun with it."

And if he says some variation of, "Yeah, I'm sure I want to play a bard," then I wouldn't say any more about it and continue with the game.
ashcat_lt
07-05-06, 11:52 PM I'm having trouble picturing a rogue/bard with boring Dex and not-great Cha. His music won't stack with the other bard, but it will free him up to do other things (like cast spells that this one can't). He also provides his own times/day pool from which the party as a whole can benefit.

There are ways to make a character part of the story that have nothing to do with their combat effectiveness. Ask him about his background and work in some plot that involves his character directly. I think it could be kind of cool. You've got the big old fighter killing 10 foes/round, the flashy wizard killing 80 foes/round, the cleric saving lives every time he turns around, the single-classed(?) bard singing Grammy winning balads and inspiring his comrades to bigger and better things. Then you've got the rogue/bard who's not great at any one thing, and mostly hangs out in the corner hoping somebody will ask him to help them out with something. He's the one to whom truly interesting things happen.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demonwolf 07-05-06, 06:34 PM	First off, lemme make it absolutely clear that this is not a debate about whether the beguiler as a class is innately superior to the bard as a class. Even if there's merit to that debate, that is distinctly not what I want to talk about here. My issue is with a specific character who's playing a bard in a very shortly upcoming game, who may or may not be better off as a beguiler. The thing is that I've known this player for a while, and the one time he played a bard during that time was the one time he was absolutely unbearable as a player. The issue came because of the fact that he wasn't really essential to the group as a bard- the fighter outdid him in combat (obviously) and the cleric/rogue and my psi-rogue together covered utility casting, healing and skillmonkeyism well enough. This plus the fact that he was something of a newbie (and still is in terms of optimization) made it so that he was essentially unnecessary to the group (a tough situation for any player), which led to him complaining and being passive-aggressive throughout essentially the whole of the game, eventually leading to the quitting of one of our players and the disbanding of the group shortly after. But in the game immediately before that one, he played the cleric and was probably the most essential character to the entire group, since he was not only an effective healer but also a surrogate tank alongside the monk. We had absolutely no problems during that game. Anyway, I recently started playing with him again about a year after our ill-fated first group, and the first character he chose was a fighter/barb, and overall he's been dealing atleast as much damage as any of the other characters and has played a fairly important role. And the main reason I suggested him as a player to the DM of our current group is because he's been taking meds to help him with his dealings with other people, and they've actually been helping. A lot of the issues with his temper that were a liability before have faded away to a pretty good extent, and his recent D&Ding has actually been something of a testament to that. The problem is that he's going to be playing a bard again, and this one is focused almost exclusively on spellcasting- his dexterity is decent at best, plus he's using a crossbow without even having rapid reload, so I don't see him doing much in combat, not to mention the fact that he wanted to focus on an acrobatic style of combat, which is pretty much impossible without rapid reload... I've also looked at his spell list, and pretty much everything there with the exception of Cure Moderate is on the beguiler list, as are pretty much all of the skills he's maxed out. Not to mention the fact that a lot of his spells are offensive debuffs and DC-based, and even though his charisma isn't bad, I don't see it being a wise path to follow considering we'll be fighting some tough opponents. The only real loss he'd incur for switching to Beguiler is one point of BaB (the game's at ECL 5), which is mostly unnecessary and easily compensated. Even bardic music, which he had at his disposal last time, is pretty much negated by the presence of the other bard in the party. So I showed him the beguiler, and he agreed that it fit his character really well mechanically, but turned it down because it didn't fit the flavor of his character. The thing is that his character was already a rogue before he switched to bard, and he based his decision not to switch on the flavor text of the beguiler. The problem with this is that IMO the beguiler pretty much falls alongside the Incarnum and CPsi classes in that it's a breath of fresh air mechanically and exists to do things that previous classes couldn't, but flavor-wise it's meant to be fairly malleable and the published flavor text is really just filler. The beguiler is meant to be a casting rogue, no more, no less, but of course they can't actually say that. I tried to explain this to him, but he decided to stick with his decision to go bard, but the more and more I look at his character the more and more I wonder if I should have stuck to my guns. Anyway, I'm debating whether I should rekindle my attempts to convince him to switch to beguiler at the risk of seeming manipulative and pushy, or whether I should let him play as a bard at the risk of having history repeat itself. Any thoughts?
Archmage Atrus 07-05-06, 07:16 PM	No. It's his character. Do you want someone else pushing their ideas on you and telling you to enjoy them? I sure don't.
Board_Rider 07-05-06, 07:26 PM	Let him play the Bard. If DMing allow his character to shine by revolving parts of the campaign around his skills and mechanical strengths.
Otto the Bugbear 07-05-06, 09:13 PM	Let him play what he wants. At best, I'd talk to the DM and make sure it's not just one big dungeon crawl. While a good bard can certainly hold his own in a dungeon setting, they really do shine brighter when given NPC/PC interaction time. In short, you did the best you could. Don't try to make his character be what you want it to be. Otherwise, just make up the character yourself and play it yourself, and tell him to stay home. Cheers Otto :)
Demonwolf 07-05-06, 09:19 PM	Spoke to him about the beguiler again (made sure not to be pushy) and he looked at it again, without regard to the flavor text this time, and still wants to stick to the bard, so I get the feeling he won't be dissatisfied with his choice of his character as long as I ensure there's some use for his character and specifically his character, however minor (and it most likely won't be minor considering it's set purely in an urban setting). Also told him about the fact that there's another bard in the party and that music effects don't stack, and it didn't seem to faze him either, so I'm much more optimistic now. Thanks for all of your advice.
Keira 07-05-06, 09:59 PM	You should have him read the boards, see how people rp Bards, and/or what problems people playing Bards seem to have. If he has a good idea what his character's role is in the party (he seems to have a pretty good idea too) then he should be alright. I'd just chalk up his past history to being a newbie. :D
Archmage_Vall 07-05-06, 11:28 PM	I'd just say, "You sure you want to play a bard? I remember the last time, you didn't seem to be having much fun with it." And if he says some variation of, "Yeah, I'm sure I want to play a bard," then I wouldn't say any more about it and continue with the game.
ashcat_lt 07-05-06, 11:52 PM	I'm having trouble picturing a rogue/bard with boring Dex and not-great Cha. His music won't stack with the other bard, but it will free him up to do other things (like cast spells that this one can't). He also provides his own times/day pool from which the party as a whole can benefit. There are ways to make a character part of the story that have nothing to do with their combat effectiveness. Ask him about his background and work in some plot that involves his character directly. I think it could be kind of cool. You've got the big old fighter killing 10 foes/round, the flashy wizard killing 80 foes/round, the cleric saving lives every time he turns around, the single-classed(?) bard singing Grammy winning balads and inspiring his comrades to bigger and better things. Then you've got the rogue/bard who's not great at any one thing, and mostly hangs out in the corner hoping somebody will ask him to help them out with something. He's the one to whom truly interesting things happen.