Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Halfred 01-21-08, 10:17 AM	I'm running the Red Hand of Doom for a group of kids, ages 11 to 15, at my local library. This past Saturday, they started to explore the Ghostlord's lair. In the first round of the encounter with Varanthian, the half-fiend Behir, the party's only cleric was bitten, swallowed whole, and killed. And the cleric was carrying the ghostlord's phylactery. The 11-year-old player is happy to roll-up a new character for a change of pace. However, I'm unclear about the details of the destruction of a phylactery and the affect it has on the lich. The phylactery has 40 HP., hardness 20, break DC 40 according to MM pg. 168. Varanthian's gizzard deals 2d8+10 damage plus 8 acid damage, for an average of 27 points of damage each round (thus the cleric dies). Do I understand correctly that the phylactery will be destroyed in six rounds? (27 dmg - hardness 20 = 7 damage each round. 7*6=42) Will the lich know that his phylactery is being damaged? Will he know who/where/how? Does he suffer any penalties when it is destroyed, other than the loss of immortality? Thanks for any feedback... --Geoff
Xavorin 01-21-08, 10:58 AM	As far as I'm aware, he does not. It seems that the repercussion is going to be, like you said, loss of immortality. Though of course that's no small loss! It seems a bad move on Behir's part to kill the cleric in such a manner.
kuonji 01-21-08, 11:17 AM	The stats in the MM are for a typical phylactery. Who says the Ghostlord's phylactery has to be typical? :)
Halfred 01-21-08, 01:05 PM	Good points, and thanks. In the Ghostlord developments section, the authors mention that one possible outcome could be that the characters destroy the phylactery and earn the Ghostlord's eternal enmity. I wondered if I had missed some pertinent rules, somewhere.
Nephlite 01-21-08, 03:04 PM	Good points, and thanks. In the Ghostlord developments section, the authors mention that one possible outcome could be that the characters destroy the phylactery and earn the Ghostlord's eternal enmity. I wondered if I had missed some pertinent rules, somewhere. Sage clarified a Lich can't make another one so I'd be angry too if my only contact to immortally was gone.
iserith 01-21-08, 03:13 PM	Maybe the behir rises from the dead (did he die?) and becomes some sort of strange undead monster because he ate the phylactery. That would be neat.
Sinis 01-21-08, 03:14 PM	I'm running the Red Hand of Doom for a group of kids, ages 11 to 15, at my local library. This past Saturday, they started to explore the Ghostlord's lair. In the first round of the encounter with Varanthian, the half-fiend Behir, the party's only cleric was bitten, swallowed whole, and killed. And the cleric was carrying the ghostlord's phylactery. You know, interestingly enough, the very same creature ate my character. The 11-year-old player is happy to roll-up a new character for a change of pace. However, I'm unclear about the details of the destruction of a phylactery and the affect it has on the lich. <snip, some math> Will the lich know that his phylactery is being damaged? Will he know who/where/how? Does he suffer any penalties when it is destroyed, other than the loss of immortality? 1. The Phylactery, is in fact, destroyed. It does not survive the monster's digestion, which takes longer than the few rounds that it takes to be destroyed. 2. The Lich will *not* know innately that it's phylactery has been destroyed. Now, if I were in the lich's shoes and someone took my link to immortality, I'd probably be scrying on it constantly, so it is possible that the Lich will find out that the phylactery has been destroyed at some point. (edit: I'm not sure that the lich in RHoD can actually scry.) 3. The Lich suffers no active penalty from the destruction of his phylactery, except that he wont reform when destroyed. If the Lich knows of the destruction of the phylactery, it very well might change his behaviour (i.e. the people who took it originally will no longer be able to compel his loyalty, and, again, if I were in the Lich's shoes, I'd be going somewhere more stable, and start working towards a more reliable form of immortality).
mtbOgre 01-21-08, 03:29 PM	2. The Lich will *not* know innately that it's phylactery has been destroyed. Now, if I were in the lich's shoes and someone took my link to immortality, I'd probably be scrying on it constantly, so it is possible that the Lich will find out that the phylactery has been destroyed at some point. (edit: I'm not sure that the lich in RHoD can actually scry.) 3. The Lich suffers no active penalty from the destruction of his phylactery, except that he wont reform when destroyed. If the Lich knows of the destruction of the phylactery, it very well might change his behaviour (i.e. the people who took it originally will no longer be able to compel his loyalty, and, again, if I were in the Lich's shoes, I'd be going somewhere more stable, and start working towards a more reliable form of immortality). The entire goal of this side encounter is to stop the Lich from joining the RHOD forces. They could quite honestly tell the GL that they were returning the phylactry and Varanthian destroyed it to prevent them from doing so. While maybe not endearing the party to the GL it should certainly eliminate any alliance between him the the RH. I don't see why the party couldn't still use diplomacy and maybe a little bluffing to get the Ghostlord to withdraw from the RHoD alliance. At this point he really has no motivation to put any efforts forward on the side of the RHoD. Of course it's entirely possible that the Ghostlord will fly in to a rage and try to kill the PCs as the nearest outlet of his rage.
iserith 01-21-08, 03:36 PM	If my ticket to immortality got digested, the last thing I'd want to be involved in is a war.
Dragonsblood 01-21-08, 04:21 PM	If my ticket to immortality got digested, the last thing I'd want to be involved in is a war. Even with the phylactery he might not want to, but he can still provide undead minions without endangering himself.
Sinis 01-21-08, 04:28 PM	The entire goal of this side encounter is to stop the Lich from joining the RHOD forces. They could quite honestly tell the GL that they were returning the phylactry and Varanthian destroyed it to prevent them from doing so. While maybe not endearing the party to the GL it should certainly eliminate any alliance between him the the RH. Yar, I know. :P I don't see why the party couldn't still use diplomacy and maybe a little bluffing to get the Ghostlord to withdraw from the RHoD alliance. At this point he really has no motivation to put any efforts forward on the side of the RHoD. Of course it's entirely possible that the Ghostlord will fly in to a rage and try to kill the PCs as the nearest outlet of his rage. I'm not sure they would *need* to use diplomacy (the skill, anyway). Just telling the Ghost Lord that he should probably get lost, and that the next time he dies he'll stay dead should be enough. If the party is strong enough to beat Varanthian, the Ghost Lord faces really poor odds (being the giant wussy he is), and I'll bet he knows. Further, he's got no reason to help the RHoD organization, and the length of his life is looking pretty bad. Any lich that values the investment of becoming what they are would immediately hide itself and seek a way to correct the problem. Edit: When I played this mod, I was a Paladin. I think we found the Phylactery, figured out what it was, and then destroyed it, long before we encountered the Ghost Lord.
Ebonarc 01-21-08, 04:29 PM	Even with the phylactery he might not want to, but he can still provide undead minions without endangering himself. True, though now he has no incentive to. Since it was the Red Hand's fault that his phylactery was destroyed (since they stole it, not because the behir ate it), I would bet that he would do everything in his power to subvert them without putting himself at risk. His ghost lions aren't going to be helping the horde in Brindol, but I don't think he'll actively fight the horde. Ulwai Stormcaller, on the other hand...:devil:
Kala2000 01-21-08, 05:28 PM	I'm not 100% sure if Varanthian can do all that in just a single round. Some of the "if he hits he can do x as a y action" texts are quite confusing, frankly.
Arcane-surge 01-21-08, 05:42 PM	I don't know anything about RHoD, but I assume that the Ghost Lord is mighty powerful. If he's also super tricky, a True Resurrection might restore him to life (Restores undead to life, but I think that there's a time restriction). If he does that after getting the bits together for a phylactery, he could just become a lich all over again. It'd weaken him a bit, but might be in his best interests, provied he has the time/resources.
Amon_V 01-21-08, 05:45 PM	Well, this MIGHT have played heavily in the PCs favor. Think about it, now the RHoD DESTROYED the Ghostlord's Phylactery. This is a serious curveball against the RHoD--we can be sure that the Ghostlord's undying rage is now going to be directed against the RHoD. It's also important to note that in part IV, the Ghostlord himself makes an appearance--so he's not hiding out Actively fighting the Horde remains a strong possibility. What we have here is a gross blunder on the RHoD's that probably forces the Ghostlord's hand. The Ghostlord is probably going to go on a killing spree against the RHoD--opening up an interesting "Second Front" of Undead Vs. the Red Hand. If nothing else, Part III is done. No need to do any more than Sending the Ghostlord.
Sinis 01-21-08, 08:42 PM	I don't know anything about RHoD, but I assume that the Ghost Lord is mighty powerful. <snip> The Ghost Lord from RHoD is the weakest Lich in print, with the possible exception of one gnome bard from Libris Mortis (I think). SPOILER ON THE GHOST LORD IN THE BLACK TEXT! The Ghost Lord is an ex-druid blighter (prestige class, Complete Divine, terrible spell list). The Ghost Lord is unbelievably terrible as far as being effective goes. He survived all of two rounds from *one* of our party members when I played this mod.
Gerry 01-22-08, 06:30 AM	Even with the phylactery he might not want to, but he can still provide undead minions without endangering himself. The behir is an RHoD behir. They stole his phylactery, then one of their dragon's digested it. I wouldn't help them period! By the way, there is a lot of RHoD advice and resources and threads in the link in my sig. Gerry
Gerry 01-22-08, 06:38 AM	It's also important to note that in part IV, the Ghostlord himself makes an appearance--so he's not hiding out He does???!? Where? Fifth Wave is his minions, but he makes no appearance. If there's a spot I've missed, please let me know. Gerry ps. There's a really good advice thread on RHoD here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=901991) along with the Index of all threads Rhod here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=855450). ghs2
kuonji 01-22-08, 07:31 AM	He does???!? Where? Fifth Wave is his minions, but he makes no appearance. If there's a spot I've missed, please let me know. Gerry ps. There's a really good advice thread on RHoD here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=901991) along with the Index of all threads Rhod here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=855450). ghs2 If you haven't dealt with the Ghostlord prior to the final assault on the church, he is one of many that can potentially attend Kharn at that point. Thus the fight scaling from ELs 9 to 13+ if I remember correctly. There isn't a for sure, 100% chance of him being there, but the potential exists for Mr. Lord to be in on the attack.
eamon 01-22-08, 10:08 AM	The Behir may have seen the phylactery, or felt it. Since the RHOD, too, need the phylacter to command the lich's assistance, The behir might anyhow regurgitate it - preferably before it's destroyed. Otherwise, the RHoD will likely claim the PC's are lying through the teeth, and that of course the RHoD still have the phylactery - so as to hopefully convince the Ghostlord to play along despite not actually possessing the phylactery any more. There is a lot of discussion on in the D&D adventures (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26) board about RHoD, and you should probably post this question there. There'll definitely be several interesting responses from the various RHoD fans on that forum which take into account the personalities involved.
JackSnape 01-22-08, 10:21 AM	I don't know a thing about RHoD, but I think that cleric should be considered a martyr by those who know what happened. Characters and NPCs should remember him fondly. The player should be proud of that character. It's a crappyway to die, but a cool way to destroy a phylactry.
Gerry 01-22-08, 06:10 PM	I don't know a thing about RHoD, but I think that cleric should be considered a martyr by those who know what happened. Characters and NPCs should remember him fondly. The player should be proud of that character. It's a crappyway to die, but a cool way to destroy a phylactry. I gotta agree. In whatever edition of the DMG there's a line or two about how to destroy various magic items and artifacts, ranging from "under the foot of a humble ant" to "into the maw of the Terrasque". This certainly lives up to the latter. And hopefully will be a memorable, repeated "war story" for many many campaigns. Gerry
Phrennzy 01-28-08, 09:52 PM	If the lich finds out that his phylactery has been destroyed, it means a few things: 1. He is no longer 'immortal' in the sense of dying and coming back. His next 'death' is permanent. 2. The blackmail by the RHOD has ended. There is no reason to send forces to aid them. 3. By stealing his phylactery, the RHOD are directly responsible for it's destruction. 4. He no longer need suffer Ulwai in his lair. I see a handful of new undead being made. 5. He has a decision to make: A. Withdraw his troops and begin searching for a way to create another phylactery. Hole up in his giant stone lion (or, as in my campaign, giant stone wolf) and think defensively. B. Continue to support the RHOD out of fear that Azzar Khul will send minions after him if he fails to follow through with sending his undead soldiers. C. Send the undead soldiers against the RHOD, waging war against Azzar Khul in seeking vengeance for blackmail and manipulation. Where do the PCs fit into all of this? They're the ones making the Diplomacy rolls. LOL
Nephlite 01-28-08, 10:50 PM	A. Withdraw his troops and begin searching for a way to create another phylactery. Hole up in his giant stone lion (or, as in my campaign, giant stone wolf) and think defensively. Vain attempts: one can only make one no more. Maybe if becomes Demi-Lich, but than don't they need a phylactery...
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-30-08, 02:25 PM	Edit: When I played this mod, I was a Paladin. I think we found the Phylactery, figured out what it was, and then destroyed it, long before we encountered the Ghost Lord. Grrrr...that's what my players did. "Strong evil and necromancy?! I smash it with my axe!" "You do WHAT!!?" And then they used their staff of life to explode the Ghostlord with heal, so it became a non-issue, but I was stumped for a while... Damn do-gooders.
weepingminotaur 01-30-08, 02:29 PM	Hi guys, I'm running RHOD myself and I'd just like to request that the title of this thread be changed, as it contains spoiler information and at least one of my players is a member on these boards. Thanks! weep
eamon 02-04-08, 07:44 AM	If the lich finds out that his phylactery has been destroyed, it means a few things: [...] 2. The blackmail by the RHOD has ended. There is no reason to send forces to aid them. Except that the Ghostlord shouldn't take the players' word for the destruction - and ulwai's a very charismatic negotiator; further, she has the benefit of circumstances; namely that she's the one that believably stole the phylactery. The ghostlord should play it safe - if there's a chance the RHoD still has his phylactery, let him deliver the bonedrinkers just to be on the safe side; you never know for sure if those PC's aren't just lying, or have destroyed some other phylactery, or mistaken some bauble for the true phylactery or whatnot! If the PC's show the ghostlord the destroyed phylacteries remains... well, he should wreck bitter vengeance on them to his full capability. Realistically, that should mean a TPK or flight from the scene, although the RHoD's ghostlord is very badly optimized and so a party has a decent chance. On the plus side, whatever the outcome of this conflict, once the ghostlord knows for sure that his phylactery is destroyed, his alliance with the RHoD is definitely at an end. I wouldn't let the player's off the hook if they destroy the phylactery. That may be the Good thing to do, but the Ghostlord won't reward them for it. Even if he does end his alliance with RHoD, he'll have a bone to pick with the party and might seek vengeance in the form of an attack on the party, perhaps by undead minions (bonedrinkers and lesser bonedrinkers made from the RHoD's executed squad and perhaps a few ghost lions and brutes), and perhaps even including himself - carefully - in that squad. The party should feel both the positive (alliance broken) and the negative (personal feud with Ghostlord) consequences of this decision.
Sinis 02-04-08, 08:58 AM	Except that the Ghostlord shouldn't take the players' word for the destruction - and ulwai's a very charismatic negotiator; further, she has the benefit of circumstances; namely that she's the one that believably stole the phylactery. The ghostlord should play it safe - if there's a chance the RHoD still has his phylactery, let him deliver the bonedrinkers just to be on the safe side; you never know for sure if those PC's aren't just lying, or have destroyed some other phylactery, or mistaken some bauble for the true phylactery or whatnot! If the PC's show the ghostlord the destroyed phylacteries remains... well, he should wreck bitter vengeance on them to his full capability. Realistically, that should mean a TPK or flight from the scene, although the RHoD's ghostlord is very badly optimized and so a party has a decent chance. On the plus side, whatever the outcome of this conflict, once the ghostlord knows for sure that his phylactery is destroyed, his alliance with the RHoD is definitely at an end. Are you kidding? So, you're connection to immortality is cut off, and the first thing you think of is to pick a fight with four people who killed the Half-fiend Behir outside?! Liches are typically smarter than that. The Ghostlord is a wuss. He knows he's a wuss. After all, the RHoD did take his phylactery and make a servant out of him. He would know what's best for him and leave the area. If he can be sure that the phylactery is destroyed, anyway. I wouldn't let the player's off the hook if they destroy the phylactery. That may be the Good thing to do, but the Ghostlord won't reward them for it. Even if he does end his alliance with RHoD, he'll have a bone to pick with the party and might seek vengeance in the form of an attack on the party, perhaps by undead minions (bonedrinkers and lesser bonedrinkers made from the RHoD's executed squad and perhaps a few ghost lions and brutes), and perhaps even including himself - carefully - in that squad. The party should feel both the positive (alliance broken) and the negative (personal feud with Ghostlord) consequences of this decision. Eh, I think the party should be rewarded. If the Ghostlord is at all smart, he'll be disappearing from the PCs and the RHoD, and the PCs should have some effect for, at least in a fashion, dealing with the Ghostlord. I personally would be very frustrated if my actions (including what amounts to half-killing an evil lich) had no effect in the world. He might come back later to haunt the PCs, but certainly not in the days to follow when the RHoD attacks.
eamon 02-11-08, 04:36 AM	Are you kidding? So, you're connection to immortality is cut off, and the first thing you think of is to pick a fight with four people who killed the Half-fiend Behir outside?! Liches are typically smarter than that. The Ghostlord is a wuss. He knows he's a wuss. After all, the RHoD did take his phylactery and make a servant out of him. He would know what's best for him and leave the area. If he can be sure that the phylactery is destroyed, anyway. That depends. Clearly, the module intends the Ghostlord to be anything but a weakling. Sure; he's careful, and wouldn't take an unnecessary risk; but the module also intends for him to be an overpowering combat encounter (though with the stats as-written that won't necessarily be the case). The ghostlord is tamed merely because someone has leverage - his phylactery. The minute that phylactery is destroyed, the ghostlord will no longer be so constrained - especially not towards the people that destroyed it. Sure, he won't risk permanent death, but if the ghostlord is truly far more powerful than the party, he'll have means to hurt or kill them without risking his life. A smart party will present enough of a threat to keep him at bay, or run fast and far enough to stay safe (though what's to stop the Ghostlord from trying assassination?). Eh, I think the party should be rewarded. If the Ghostlord is at all smart, he'll be disappearing from the PCs and the RHoD, and the PCs should have some effect for, at least in a fashion, dealing with the Ghostlord. I personally would be very frustrated if my actions (including what amounts to half-killing an evil lich) had no effect in the world. He might come back later to haunt the PCs, but certainly not in the days to follow when the RHoD attacks. I think the party's reward should match their actions. This action is impulsive and it's consequences not well thought out. If you find an artifact of a powerful being, then destroying it will lead to enmity. If they don't take steps to ensure otherwise, that's the consequence they will suffer. If they're trying to save an innocent vale from a horde of goblins, then starting a feud with a powerful undead enemy isn't wise. There are positive consequences too - the Ghostlord will cease his alliance with the RHoD (if they prove destruction truly happened), and they're liable to be able to fully destroy the lich later on in the campaign (and in any case, destroying a lich's safety net is always a good thing!). Both positive and negative consequences should be borne by the party. If they anger the lich, he'll hurt them where he best can - and that's probably at the moment they can least use it - namely, while they're trying to do something else. The ghostlord has been around for centuries without being an active threat to the vale. A wise party will choose their battles and try to avoid engaging the lich. If they seek to keep the vale safe, the best course of action is to conserve their strength for the battles that truly matter. If they seek to destroy evil, they should by all means destroy the phylactery - but evil will fight back, nastily, and they may lose the vale as a result (admittedly, that's unlikely, but I'm not going to shield them from it either). The party's actions might have serious consequences - for both good and bad.
Sinis 02-11-08, 08:53 AM	That depends. Clearly, the module intends the Ghostlord to be anything but a weakling. Sure; he's careful, and wouldn't take an unnecessary risk; but the module also intends for him to be an overpowering combat encounter (though with the stats as-written that won't necessarily be the case). The ghostlord is tamed merely because someone has leverage - his phylactery. The minute that phylactery is destroyed, the ghostlord will no longer be so constrained - especially not towards the people that destroyed it. Sure, he won't risk permanent death, but if the ghostlord is truly far more powerful than the party, he'll have means to hurt or kill them without risking his life. A smart party will present enough of a threat to keep him at bay, or run fast and far enough to stay safe (though what's to stop the Ghostlord from trying assassination?). Absolutely, but you have to see it from a Lich's point of view. He has (and basically still does) all the time in the world to formulate his revenge. He's not in an easy spot, mind you. Agents of the RHoD are going to come ask questions about where the Behir is, how the reinforcements are coming, etc. He just doesn't have any answers. It's better for him by far to leave the area, or at least find a new lair while working against the PCs. He may also work against the RHoD. There are positive consequences too - the Ghostlord will cease his alliance with the RHoD (if they prove destruction truly happened), and they're liable to be able to fully destroy the lich later on in the campaign (and in any case, destroying a lich's safety net is always a good thing!). This is what I mean. I don't expect the Ghostlord to thank the PCs for his "freedom". He'll be livid with rage, but that doesn't mean he wont still be a calculating lich. He might send agents against the PCs during the siege of Brindol, or at some other opportune time. He may also send agents against the RHoD. Or, he may simply watch, and try to kill the group that survives the conflict.