Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duvanok 06-23-05, 03:04 AM	Well, I ran a beholder against my players (level 11) for the first time in my long career as a DM. And I must say I wasn't too impressed. It has a respectable AC and can hover way above the battle to avoid the heavy hitters but any arcane casters or ranged weaponed rogue (in this case a ranged weaponed rogue with improved invisibility cast on him) pretty much means instant death. The poor spherical bastard only lasted about 3 rounds. I managed to disintigrate the party cleric but only due to the cleric's incredibly bad roll, and that was the only eye ray that had an effect. And yes, there were lots of beholder underlings around (in this case orcs) to distract. It's not that I wanted to kill everyone, (I am not that kind of DM) I was just expecting a beholder to be a bit more difficult. And can someone please tell me what good a beholder's antimagic field is if it can't use its own eye rays when the field is in effect! It's the equivalent of taking away someone's armor only to give it back right before you attack him. Silly!
Salla 06-23-05, 03:11 AM	The beholder can use his eye rays with the anti-magic cone on, he just can't fire them into the arc containing the anti-magic cone. So, he can maneuver so that the party (say) wizard is in the effect, while still firing most of his rays about at the rest of the party. At least, I think they can ... I've never actually used a beholder. If the old Gamestoppers articles are still on the site (check the Retired Articles), the last one showed a beholder in action.
Old French Admiral 06-23-05, 03:49 AM	Wait. Disintegrating the cleric wasn't enough? Unless I have completely confused disintegration with some lesser effect, that sounds pretty bad to me! Was your group well stocked with Powdered Insta-ClericTM? Just based on the subsequent damage potential for a clericless party, I would view the Beholder as a good opponent.
Mike W 06-23-05, 04:17 AM	The Beholder is a Tech monster. It is not a good single opponent, unless it has used its vastly superior intellect to place itself in a tactically optimal position prior to combat. It knows as well as anyone that, in spite of its obvious racial superiority, it is a fragile sack of hot air and non-euclidean organs. There needs to be something to take the hurt off of the Beholder, because it is very fragile. Heck, my DM just ran our party against a Paragon Beholder a little while ago, and if the party Psion hadn't simply disintegrated it to death, I would've Enervated it to death. Its CR was about 8 higher than our Average party level. That's not supposed to prove anything, it's just an example. :) But yeah.. want to spice up a Beholder encounter? Give it some really nasty warriors... maybe some Skum Barbarians borrowed from his Aboleth ally, or a few paid-off generic thugs. Want to really spice up a Beholder encounter? Do that, and switch out some if its Eye Rays for different ones. The Paragon Beholder had Dominate Monster and Harm on eye rays... not a pretty sight, I assure you.
anders 06-23-05, 04:36 AM	Beholders usually enslave lesser races anyway, so they should have minions. Roll for disintigrate? playing 3.0? In 3.5 Disintigrate just deals damage.. Massive damage. The beholder can use its anti magic ray on caster, while doing other rays as long as he dont use them within his own anti magic field. from memory the beholder can use ~3 eyes on each character. Edit: The anitmagic ray has a cone of about 90' or something, so he can easily position himself so he uses that to his advantage. (nerfing casters, while killing tanks -- or the other way around)
Mike W 06-23-05, 05:07 AM	The roll for Disintigrate in this case would likely be the Fortitude saving throw to take 5d6 damage instead of 26d6 damage. 26d6 works out to about 91 damage on average. An 11th level cleric should average about 53 hitpoints before considering Constitution, and even with a 16 con adding to that would be quite dead. While it deals massive damage instead of insta-death, it still deals massive damage. We're talking "Stick a fork in him, he's done." levels of damage. :)
Mirikon 06-23-05, 08:43 AM	Well, I ran a beholder against my players (level 11) for the first time in my long career as a DM. And I must say I wasn't too impressed. It has a respectable AC and can hover way above the battle to avoid the heavy hitters but any arcane casters or ranged weaponed rogue (in this case a ranged weaponed rogue with improved invisibility cast on him) pretty much means instant death. The poor spherical bastard only lasted about 3 rounds. I managed to disintigrate the party cleric but only due to the cleric's incredibly bad roll, and that was the only eye ray that had an effect. And yes, there were lots of beholder underlings around (in this case orcs) to distract. It's not that I wanted to kill everyone, (I am not that kind of DM) I was just expecting a beholder to be a bit more difficult. And can someone please tell me what good a beholder's antimagic field is if it can't use its own eye rays when the field is in effect! It's the equivalent of taking away someone's armor only to give it back right before you attack him. Silly! Beholders can attack with the eye rays while the antimagic cone is up. They just can't fire into the cone. Typical tactics involve putting the cone on the casters, and then using the eyebeams on the tanks/other PCs. Since Beholders are ruthlessly intelligent, the trick of luring the fighter types off to try and attack it while the spellcasters are caught in the field is a good one, especially when minions come out of surprise and attack the casters while the meatshields are away. Plus, the antimagic field will nix that annoying rogue's improved invisibility. Read the monster description again. Specifically the part about combat. Beholders will often wade into the middle of groups, using as many eye rays as possible. Keep the central eye on the casters, and use the Disintegrate, Charm, Finger of Death, and Flesh to Stone rays on the others. Telekinesis can also be fun, when a player gets tossed into the air, or thrown off a cliff.
Malice Duskblade 06-23-05, 08:50 AM	Beholders have to be tactile to be effective. If it just charges in, facing forward with its anti-magic cone and blasting around the sides with random eye rays, it will probably fail. Charge in with a battleplan. Beholders are intelligent, play them as such. They know how to make the best use of their abilities against different types of opponants. Characters with powerful magic items are good candidates for the antimagic cone - that +3 Greatsword of shocking burst becomes less threatening, and that belt of ogre strength is just plain heavy and awkward. Fighters, paladins, rangers and barbarians have low will saves. These characters also represent the fighting backbone of the team, and the biggest threat to the beholder. Charm person and charm monster are good ways of starting the battle, using both if the first fails. Failing both attacks, use sleep. Slow, fear and inflict moderate wounds also works well against the tanks. Rogues, wizards, bards and sorcerers have low fortitude saves. Disintigrate, finger of death and flesh to stone work quite well here. Clerics, monks and druids have good fortitute and will saves, but this is where the telekinesis spell comes in. The telekinesis eye is great for ranged attacks, lifting and launching objects. The attack is made at base attack plus intelligence, resulting in +11 for the beholder. With a maximum lift capacity of 325 pounds, that's a 13d6 boulder each round. No save. Ouch! Try it again, but with better tactics. Beholders are fun!
Mirikon 06-23-05, 08:56 AM	And, if the beholder is clever enough, you could always do the surprise attack approach. Party's walking along, there's a flash of light, and suddenly the wizard is a pile of dust. Then the beholder attacks, opening up with things targetting will saves of the tanks, and the central eye on the cleric.
astute1 06-23-05, 08:59 AM	I would say you have to think strongly about tactics before using a beholder. You have to use the antimagic cone wisely - to lock down a pesky spellcaster, typically. The eye rays are a little touchier. The big thing with them is how many you can fire at people. I usually say that the DM gets to draw the lines on where the various fire arcs are. That way, if two people bunch up, you can just draw the line between them and fire maximum eye rays at both. If you get creative with three dimensions, you can really start blasting away with a lot of rays each round.
Malice Duskblade 06-23-05, 08:59 AM	It's official. My beholder's going back on the board this saturday. :D
Phrennzy 06-23-05, 10:47 AM	Well, assuming that the party is made up of 4 characters, killing one of them is a big accomplishment. That's 'using up' 25% of their resources, which is what a CR of roughly equivalent level is geared to do. I can understand how you thought the combat would last more than 3 rounds, but you know that combat becomes short and brutal as levels rise. Save or Die spells abound, and fighter types dish out hundred of points of damage in a round. I'd say you are disappointed because it was a short fight, not because it wasn't spectacular.
MrkGrismer 06-23-05, 11:33 AM	A beholder should have enough melee minions to keep a party from closing into melee distance with it, and enough archer minions to pepper the party with arrows while they are in the beholder's anti-magic cone. Any part members that split off from the group in order to go around the melee fighters in order to get at the beholder are subject to the eye rays (3 per 90 degree arc). Alternately having two beholders with one holding its action until the other one has dropped its anti-magic and fired all its eye rays before putting its own anti-magic up is also somewhat dangerous, they still should have minions tho.
Cantankerous 06-23-05, 11:43 AM	There is no monster in the book that is anz better than the manner in which the DM uses it. I can take a octet of kobolds and give a 5th level party fits, IF the kobolds get to dictate the tactics of the encounter. Likewise I can take said beholder and give a 15th level party apoplexy with it, IF it gets to dictate the manner in which the encounter comes off. That becomes the real test in a well run game, can the players figure out a way to cage something in it's lair without IT being the one to dictate the basis of the encounter. Isshia
clarkvalentine 06-23-05, 12:06 PM	Holy crap, you disintegrated the cleric. I'd call that a phyrric victory for the players.
Transit 06-23-05, 12:17 PM	Just wanted to add that Telekinesis is great for keeping the party separated (flung into different corners of the room) so that they're always in different 90 degree arcs. That way the Beholder can make use of all of it's attacks every round.
solbergb 06-23-05, 12:20 PM	Yeah. A kill is usually a sign of a tough fight. Beholders and Gauts can rotate to use all of their eyes. They fire them as a free action, so you use their "good" flight to float in little zig-zags, or just sit in place and rotate, firing one facing before they move, one between move-actions, the rest after the final move action. Part of doing a single beholder encounter well is always ending up with the antimagic cone facing the PC's. This cuts their buffs, mobility and limits them to readied actions with magic. Of course for this to work they should focust paralysis and sleep effects on PC's that have managed to move out of the cone. Beholders should use will-save stuff on archers, fort-save stuff on arcanists as a high priority, as both are dangerous. Going 3 rounds with a beholder will usually leave someone dead. They get 10 save or XXX effects per round, and the dice will catch up to you. Unless the PC is able to screen with something like nonmagical smoke, they can't afford a drawn out battle (cover gets removed by disintigrate rays...) If you have a pair of beholders, they work best if at the end of firing all their rays they end up with their antimagic cones facing each other. That preserves all slept/paralyzed opponents in their proper state, while protecting both from all but readied spells and allowing a beholder that rolled a bad save a chance to figure out a way out of the problem while under antimagic.
Maerdash 06-23-05, 12:27 PM	1st round (assuming no surprise):Beholder activates all eye rays on party wizard until he is killed/charmed, any remaining eye rays are blasted at the party rogue, activates antimagic field (can do this once a round). Uses move action to hover out side melee range. Fighter: Drops sword, draws Bow fires once. Cleric: Draws sling/crossbow, fires once. 2nd round: Beholder deactivates antimagic field (can do this oce a round), activates all eye rays on party fighter until he is killed/charmed, uses remaining eye rays on party cleric. The beholder now has 1-3 dead/charmed characters and the clerics day is looking bad. Of course I'm assuming no surprise with the beholder winning initiative, but surprise is very likely when facing a beholder on his home turf so it's still a fair example.
TinManFan 06-23-05, 01:36 PM	Cleric didn't cast SR and spelldanced it persistant for the whole day? Deserves what he got. Shame shame shame... Look, they're tough if you give them a surprise round and Imp Init. however, you have to consider this is one guy against a party, so unless he's using tactics to gain the upper hand (Concealment, higher ground, enslaved Half Fiend Frost Giant Disciple of Thrymm) he's toast.
TinManFan 06-23-05, 01:38 PM	Also, remember to give him the Improved Flight if beholders count as flying as per the pre-reqs. Amy critter I play that has flight, always take enough feats to get Perfect flying.
wereooze 06-23-05, 02:05 PM	Beholders work best in groups of 12 for a TPK. It was a smashing success for the Mulmaster Beholder Corps.
Duvanok 06-23-05, 05:21 PM	You bunch of bastards! Were were you guys a week ago when I posted a thread asking for advice on beholder tactics?! :pbbbtt: Oh well. . . Yeah, I know killing one of the pcs is generally considered a hard fight, what I was disappointed about was the fact that out of all the eye rays to be fired in those three rounds (just under 30), that disintegrate ray was the only one to do anything. Most missed and those that did find their mark were easily negated by the player's saves. It just seems that if the cleric hadn't made that critical failure on her save (I think she only needed to roll a 5 or higher), this whole encounter would have been a cake walk. In fact, it pretty much was a cake walk for the other three players. I just didn't run things well, I guess. I am, however, very P***ed Off that I missread the antimagic cone rules. I have no doubt the battle would have gone very differently had I not overlooked that major detail. :banghead:
astute1 06-23-05, 05:41 PM	They missed!!! They are touch attacks!!! How high are the player's AC's?
Phrennzy 06-23-05, 05:42 PM	You bunch of bastards! LOL I was disappointed about was the fact that out of all the eye rays to be fired in those three rounds (just under 30), that disintegrate ray was the only one to do anything. Most missed and those that did find their mark were easily negated by the player's saves. You missed with ranged touch attacks? Dude, go put your d20 in the vise...
Maerdash 06-23-05, 05:49 PM	You bunch of bastards! Were were you guys a week ago when I posted a thread asking for advice on beholder tactics?! :pbbbtt: Oh well. . . Yeah, I know killing one of the pcs is generally considered a hard fight, what I was disappointed about was the fact that out of all the eye rays to be fired in those three rounds (just under 30), that disintegrate ray was the only one to do anything. Most missed and those that did find their mark were easily negated by the player's saves. It just seems that if the cleric hadn't made that critical failure on her save (I think she only needed to roll a 5 or higher), this whole encounter would have been a cake walk. In fact, it pretty much was a cake walk for the other three players. I just didn't run things well, I guess. I am, however, very P***ed Off that I missread the antimagic cone rules. I have no doubt the battle would have gone very differently had I not overlooked that major detail. :banghead: For the record I posted there to but I don't give the best advice so..meh. How may I ask are there touch AC's high enough for you to miss from the appearence VERY often, and how high are their saves? Sometimes when saves are high you have to give the beholder a higher charisma to keep the level of the challenge the same. A beholder who rolled a 18 and has a magic item that increases charisma is a much bigger threat than your average beholder.
olshanski_home 06-23-05, 06:51 PM	...but any arcane casters or ranged weaponed rogue (in this case a ranged weaponed rogue with improved invisibility cast on him) pretty much means instant death. A rogue using a ranged weapon gets a sneak attack when invisible, ONLY if he is within 30 feet. If the beholder is hovering 50 feet above the ground, the rogue gets no sneak attack damage. Also, the antimagic cone should do a good job of grounding anyone who tries flying with magic means, and the antimagic zone should have supressed the invisibility. I am also a little suprised that the beholder was missing with his ranged touch attacks... unless the party was mostly monks, the fighter and cleric should have been very hittable with ranged touch attacks.
Molitor 06-23-05, 07:18 PM	You do realize when the inviso rogue pulls an arrow from the quiver to fire, the arrow itself is visible or most of it. I'm not trying to tell you how to DM, it is just something I noticed in your post. Next time you could give the beholder more hitdice and perhaps some gear to boost it's Cha, I believe it is Cha that the DC for it eyestalks are based upon.
Cathon 06-23-05, 08:50 PM	What do you play that greatswords are mostly visible while invisible as well? An archer is holding the arrow between his fingers from the point when he grabs it in the quiver until the moment of release. It is a held item in his possession and it shouldn't be visible until he attacks with it. And I think you could do a pretty respectable beholder encounter just by sending a bunch of raging orc barbarians against the party while they are in the anti-magic cone.
Molitor 06-23-05, 09:20 PM	HMMMMmmm......I must be thinking of another game system. Rolemaster perhaps. :weep:
Duvanok 06-25-05, 02:07 AM	How was the beholder missing with its +9 ranged touch attacks? Well. . . player 1. An 11th level wizard with improved invisibility (or is it greater invisibility?) Player 2. An 11th level rogue with improved invisibility cast on him thanks to the wiz, and under the effects of a fly spell thanks to a potion. Now the dc to "spot" an invisible creature is +20 when moving, +40 when standing still. Since both were moving they both got a +20 to their hide checks against the beholder opposed spot check to see if the beholder could tell which square they were in. The rogue took a 10 each time (special 10th level rogue ability) which put his total hide check somewhere in the mid 40's. Beholder never discerned which square he occupied and therefore could not target him with eye rays. The wiz made straight rolls for his hide checks (with the +20 for being invisible), and the beholder actually "saw" him once. It fired three of his eye rays at him, 2 missed due to the 50% miss chance and the one that hit (the sleep ray) was easily negated by his will save. As for the other two players. . . Player 3, the dwarven cleric. Unfortunately she was in the same 90 degree arc as player 4 and therefore she was only targeted with one ray in the first round. It hit, but she easily saved. Second round, critical failure on her save = Pile of clerical dust. (I felt sorry for her as this was only 30 minutes into the game in real time, with 6 and hald hours left to go in our session). Player 4. 11th level monk who has begged borrowed and done everything next to steal to buy Ac enhancing items over his career. Fighting defensively his Ac is, I believe, somewhere around 34. Touch attack, somewhere around 27. I missed him every time. So, there you go. Now if I knew the beholder could turn on his antimagic cone and still fire his eye rays at those outside the cone, the battle would have gone very differently. I would have kept that big eye right on that damn rogue and his friend Mr. Fireball, keeping them both land bound and useless while the orc minions hacked them to pieces. The monk also wouldn't have lasted long against my throng of orcs without his Ac enhancing magical crap. :mad: Oh well, I would rather error on the side of the players than to accidently do a TPK.
Mirikon 06-25-05, 09:57 AM	The Improved Invisbility isn't an issue. Its called 150ft cone of antimagic. The beholder should have been staring at the mage the entire time. Meaning no spells.
MrkGrismer 06-25-05, 10:00 AM	Now if I knew the beholder could turn on his antimagic cone and still fire his eye rays at those outside the cone, the battle would have gone very differently. I would have kept that big eye right on that damn rogue and his friend Mr. Fireball, keeping them both land bound and useless while the orc minions hacked them to pieces. The monk also wouldn't have lasted long against my throng of orcs without his Ac enhancing magical crap. :mad: Oh well, I would rather error on the side of the players than to accidently do a TPK. Maybe the next encounter should be with the monster adventuring group that feebleminded that beholder as a prank. ;) :D
Duvanok 06-26-05, 01:58 AM	Maybe the next encounter should be with the monster adventuring group that feebleminded that beholder as a prank. ;) :D :rofl: Nice!