Beholders, class levels and CRs oh my! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beholders, class levels and CRs oh my! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lifespeed
03-28-05, 07:17 PM Okay, I've got a two part question here, despite the title.

Part the First: I've got a party I'm running for at third level now, and they don't seem to have much trouble handling things. We just finished up the fourth adventure with our third session and I'm planning on putting them through a more old school dungeon with puzzles and traps and action packed fights. At least that's the goal, so we'll see how it goes. I really want them to face off with a beholder for the BBEG of the dungeon and, realizing how bloody nasty full on beholders are, I've decided I want them to fight a gauth beholder, the one with only six eyestalks, none of which can slay them outright. As it stands, if I put them up against the beholder in a room where he can really fight on his terms, it should be a pretty fair fight, as they're quite a capable party, so I'm really not afraid of putting them up against a CR 6 monster.
I've got one little problem though, the beholder didn't design this dungeon, he's simply inhabiting it along with other various nasties, and while he'd easily be smart enough to get past the puzzles and outwit or deal with the other denizins, he has no hands. This is a pretty big problem when things like doors are involved. So, partof the question involves me asking anybody kind enough to comment how they handle beholders or have done so in the past. I've never run one and the one time I met one in a game he was mostly there for flavor. So, any suggestions as to how he can handle himself in the dungeon in a way that makes sense?

Now for part the second: I was thinking it would be cool if he could use dimension door to get around the dungeon, which would mean giving him an item that the PCs would end up with, or giving him seven levels in wizard. I'm pretty sure that giving a gauth beholder seven levels in wizard would make him at least as nasty as a regular beholder, thus defeating the point. Still though, I have a question. How do you add class levels to something like a beholder that has a CR but no level adjustment?

Any help would be mucho awesome.

P.S. For anyone who may cringe at the thought of a 3rd level party going up againt a beholder, keep in mind that I have a ranger with a shock hammer, a rogue with point-blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot and a ghost touch mace, a druid with an eagle companion that literally destorys worlds, and a sorceress who can fire her crossbow every round, not to mention blast off magic missiles like it aint no thing. not ot mention the fact that they wailed on a 3rd level fiendish half-orc barbarian and a 5th level teifling cleric with pretty much no hurt on themselves, and the sorceress was only 2nd level at that point. Oh, and they might get a 5th PC for this one as well, so there's that. No worries 'eh?
olshanski_home
03-28-05, 08:30 PM When you add class levels to a monster, you count class levels as either "associated" or "non-associated".

An associated class level adds to the CR on a 1-for-1 basis...
Example: A CR5 troll with 4 levels of fighter becomes a CR9 opponent.

A non-associated class level adds to the CR on a 2-for-1 basis, until the number of class levels exceeds the creature's hit dice, at which point the non-associated class levels are added on a 1-for-1 basis.
Example: a 4 HD ogre, CR2 with 2 levels of wizard (non-associated) is a CR3 challenge. The same ogre with 4 levels of wizard is a CR4 challenge. The same ogre with 5 levels of wizard is a CR5 challenge. The same ogre with 6 levels of wizard is a CR6 challenge.

The big question: What is the difference between associated and non-associated classes?
All NPC classes are always non-associated.
For bruiser type opponents, levels of fighter, barbarian, ranger, are associated.
For stealthy opponents, levels of rogue are associated
For spellcasting opponents, levels of wizard/sorcerer/cleric are associated.

Many people think that cleric levels are powerful enough that they are always associated.

For your beholder: I am not sure what I would call associated or not. I might consider giving the beholder a magic item that is powered by a central eye ray that can cast dimension door, or simply a cape of the montebank that only transports 1 the user and nobody else... those are both methods that will not really help your party.

Regarding your party... You can play whatever kind of game you want. I personally will not play with a DM that either has not read about appropriate gear value for PCs per level... or that has read it but doesn't understand it.
lifespeed
03-28-05, 08:45 PM Thanks. I'll have to look into the cape idea.
As for character wealth, I understand how the table works, but I feel that some of the numbers are a little high, and so my PCs are a little below average I think, but I haven't gotten around to totaling up everybody's total GP value. It's something to think about. As for the mace, I refuse to allow a bland +1 mace or somesuch in my game, so when they went to identify the mace they got off the BBEG from The Burning Plague and the longsword from The Ettin's Riddle, I rolled up abilities for them. They ended up with a ghost touch mace and a frost longsword. The rogue is holding onto the mace for now as he has the second highest Strength score, and they gave the sword to the ranger, who traded it for a shock warhammer, for which he still owes the merchant a favor. In the two adventures I've run that I actually wrote, I've yet to give them any magic items so the rogue, druid and sorceress are actually a little wanting, but they could have sold both weapons and decided not to. Personally, I don't feel the need to enforce some kind of fair share rule to make my players split everything four ways, as it's their loot. They split cash five ways, throwing in for a party fund, and dole out other loot as they see fit. It works for them and it works for the group I play in.

Ouch, didn't mean to hijack my own thread there, but I felt the need to explain things, as you seemed to be knocking my DMing style. You probably weren't though, so I probably went through all that for no reason. Oh well!

So, anybody else got some helpful beholder tips?
Frostwind
03-28-05, 08:54 PM If you have RoF, it includes beholder mage, a PrC for Beholder only. Its a pretty nasty class that would allow a beholder to cast spell multiple spell per round as a mage. Only problem is that I don't think you could apply it to a gauth, as the main prerequisite for the class is to "put out central antimagic eye". As gauth does not have antimagic eye, I don't think they could qualify for the class.

Giving Item to beholder is a difficult thing for DMs. The only item they could wear would be rings, or maybe amulets (most of them don't have a neck so I'm not sure if they could :rolleyes: ).

hope that help

Frostwind
Cathon
03-28-05, 09:04 PM I'm not sure about Gauth Beholders, but I believe beholders have telekinesis to handle things with. Other possibilities are a magic item that lets him cast open and close many times per day. Most beholders surround themselves with slaves, so he might just have some goblins or kobolds around to handle those silly door issues and maybe hollow out some areas in the ceiling for him to retreat to.
Frostwind
03-28-05, 09:16 PM Most Beholder does not need Kobold to walk around dugeons, they just use disintegrate! :) I don't know if you could control object with the same finess as hand with telekinesis... ugh (just looked in my PHB)... I'm wrong. the SRD says that

Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.

This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.

An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.

Sounds like a beholder can open door without any help! (those kobold would get annoying after all...) If that is true, Beholder could hold object like wand or staffs without problems.

Hope that help

Frostwind
olshanski_home
03-28-05, 10:24 PM [QUOTE=lifespeed]As for character wealth, I understand how the table works, but I feel that some of the numbers are a little high, and so my PCs are a little below average I think, but I haven't gotten around to totaling up everybody's total GP value. It's something to think about. As for the mace, I refuse to allow a bland +1 mace or somesuch in my game, so when they went to identify the mace they got off the BBEG from The Burning Plague and the longsword from The Ettin's Riddle, I rolled up abilities for them. They ended up with a ghost touch mace and a frost longsword. The rogue is holding onto the mace for now as he has the second highest Strength score, and they gave the sword to the ranger, who traded it for a shock warhammer, for which he still owes the merchant a favor. In the two adventures I've run that I actually wrote, I've yet to give them any magic items so the rogue, druid and sorceress are actually a little wanting, but they could have sold both weapons and decided not to. Personally, I don't feel the need to enforce some kind of fair share rule to make my players split everything four ways, as it's their loot. They split cash five ways, throwing in for a party fund, and dole out other loot as they see fit. It works for them and it works for the group I play in.

Ouch, didn't mean to hijack my own thread there, but I felt the need to explain things, as you seemed to be knocking my DMing style. You probably weren't though, so I probably went through all that for no reason. Oh well![QUOTE]
No, you were right, I was knocking your style.
Estimated wealth for 3rd level person is 2700. I usually spread the stuff around so I think no single item should be more than 1/2 of a person's wealth... but I also allow some leeway... they might get something a level early... A 3rd level person might have a +1 weapon... a 4th level fighter almost certainly should have a +1 weapon.
your +1 ghost touch mace, shock hammer, and frost longsword are worth 8300+ gp each... those are items appropriate for a 6th level people if you are very generous... 7th level people would be more appropriate.

Part of my reaction is because I don't know what a gauth beholder is... so I sort of assumed it was on a par with a regular beholder and appropriate for 11th level characters. When I hear "3rd level party with +2 weapons taking on beholders" I just think that something isn't exactly right. The 3rd level characters in my games are seriously threatened by a pair of ghasts or a couple of wererat warriors.
Nom
03-28-05, 10:51 PM How do you add class levels to something like a beholder that has a CR but no level adjustment?Well, you've already mentioned that your PCs are somewhat over-powered, so let's ignore CR. Likewise, LA isn't needed unless you really need to know the creature's ECL; monsters with LA but no "X as characters" are intended purely as cohorts or similar. Monsters with LA: - aren't even intended for that.

So just deal with your beholder on his own merits. He already has racial HD, so just add the class levels as seems appropriate. For power, eyeball (pun not intended) him off against the party and play through some encounter scenarios in your mind; the party doesn't match their "average party level", so CR won't help you much.
Darth Snig
03-28-05, 11:04 PM Going by the description in the MM something expendable, weak and easily dominated. I'd have to agree with the goblin/kobold slaves. Even orc or gnoll slaves could work.

If the gauth is living in a dugeon with other monsters living there as well its going to try to dominate and control as many as it can get away with.

Slaves will be the work the best IMO. The gauth can travel freely through its controlled areas and there's no magic item to worry about.

Hope this helps.:behold:
lifespeed
03-28-05, 11:11 PM Part of my reaction is because I don't know what a gauth beholder is... so I sort of assumed it was on a par with a regular beholder and appropriate for 11th level characters. When I hear "3rd level party with +2 weapons taking on beholders" I just think that something isn't exactly right. The 3rd level characters in my games are seriously threatened by a pair of ghasts or a couple of wererat warriors.

Gauth are weaker beholders with only 6 eyestalks, and they can't insta-kill and so on.
Actually, each of the weapons is equivilent to a +1 weapon, as they only have the abilities, it's just a masterwork mace with ghost touch, and a masterwork hammer with the shock ability, so they're both in the 2300 gp range. No +2s at all.
And besides, if I did have 3rd level characters with +2 weapons taking on beholders, and me and my players were having fun, why is there something wrong with that? Isn't the point of the game to have fun?
olshanski_home
03-28-05, 11:52 PM Actually, each of the weapons is equivilent to a +1 weapon, as they only have the abilities, it's just a masterwork mace with ghost touch, and a masterwork hammer with the shock ability, so they're both in the 2300 gp range. No +2s at all.
And besides, if I did have 3rd level characters with +2 weapons taking on beholders, and me and my players were having fun, why is there something wrong with that? Isn't the point of the game to have fun?
According to the rules, you cannot have a frost, shocking, or ghost touch weapon without at least a +1 enchantment. You'll have to forgive me for assuming that a ghost touch/frost/or shocking weapon was at least +2 because that's how the rules were written.
Saying that a frost or ghost touch "masterwork" weapon is only equivalent to +1 is also not correct. Look at it this way: the difference between a masterwork sword and a +1 sword is +1 damage. (they both have the same +1 to hit). That is a difference of 2000 in price. The frost is +1d6 damage... that is a lot more than just +1 damage... and nowhere near the same in price. The ghost touch weapon has the ability to always hit ethereal and insubstantial creatures... that is another significant ability.... there is a reason that weapons are required to be at least +1 before they gain additional enchantments, and part of it is to balance the price.
Is there anything wrong with having fun? No. Should you and your players be able to play any way you want? Of course.
I look at it this way... my son doesn't know how to ride his tricycle... but he does have a lot of fun spinning the wheels when the tricycle is turned on its side. When his legs are long enough I will teach him to ride the tricycle, and I think he will have even more fun then.
lifespeed
03-29-05, 12:50 AM Thanks for pointing that out, I guess I missed that in the book.
d00m_b4b00n
03-29-05, 10:33 AM The MM does talk about how there are many species of beholders with different appearances and abilities. If opening doors are a problem then give it a telekinesis eye (with a low caster level so as not to be unbalancing)

In regards to treasure, let them have a big pile of whatever, beholders are nothing if not greedy. It's sort of a dog in the manger thing, but with arm envy...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lifespeed 03-28-05, 07:17 PM	Okay, I've got a two part question here, despite the title. Part the First: I've got a party I'm running for at third level now, and they don't seem to have much trouble handling things. We just finished up the fourth adventure with our third session and I'm planning on putting them through a more old school dungeon with puzzles and traps and action packed fights. At least that's the goal, so we'll see how it goes. I really want them to face off with a beholder for the BBEG of the dungeon and, realizing how bloody nasty full on beholders are, I've decided I want them to fight a gauth beholder, the one with only six eyestalks, none of which can slay them outright. As it stands, if I put them up against the beholder in a room where he can really fight on his terms, it should be a pretty fair fight, as they're quite a capable party, so I'm really not afraid of putting them up against a CR 6 monster. I've got one little problem though, the beholder didn't design this dungeon, he's simply inhabiting it along with other various nasties, and while he'd easily be smart enough to get past the puzzles and outwit or deal with the other denizins, he has no hands. This is a pretty big problem when things like doors are involved. So, partof the question involves me asking anybody kind enough to comment how they handle beholders or have done so in the past. I've never run one and the one time I met one in a game he was mostly there for flavor. So, any suggestions as to how he can handle himself in the dungeon in a way that makes sense? Now for part the second: I was thinking it would be cool if he could use dimension door to get around the dungeon, which would mean giving him an item that the PCs would end up with, or giving him seven levels in wizard. I'm pretty sure that giving a gauth beholder seven levels in wizard would make him at least as nasty as a regular beholder, thus defeating the point. Still though, I have a question. How do you add class levels to something like a beholder that has a CR but no level adjustment? Any help would be mucho awesome. P.S. For anyone who may cringe at the thought of a 3rd level party going up againt a beholder, keep in mind that I have a ranger with a shock hammer, a rogue with point-blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot and a ghost touch mace, a druid with an eagle companion that literally destorys worlds, and a sorceress who can fire her crossbow every round, not to mention blast off magic missiles like it aint no thing. not ot mention the fact that they wailed on a 3rd level fiendish half-orc barbarian and a 5th level teifling cleric with pretty much no hurt on themselves, and the sorceress was only 2nd level at that point. Oh, and they might get a 5th PC for this one as well, so there's that. No worries 'eh?
olshanski_home 03-28-05, 08:30 PM	When you add class levels to a monster, you count class levels as either "associated" or "non-associated". An associated class level adds to the CR on a 1-for-1 basis... Example: A CR5 troll with 4 levels of fighter becomes a CR9 opponent. A non-associated class level adds to the CR on a 2-for-1 basis, until the number of class levels exceeds the creature's hit dice, at which point the non-associated class levels are added on a 1-for-1 basis. Example: a 4 HD ogre, CR2 with 2 levels of wizard (non-associated) is a CR3 challenge. The same ogre with 4 levels of wizard is a CR4 challenge. The same ogre with 5 levels of wizard is a CR5 challenge. The same ogre with 6 levels of wizard is a CR6 challenge. The big question: What is the difference between associated and non-associated classes? All NPC classes are always non-associated. For bruiser type opponents, levels of fighter, barbarian, ranger, are associated. For stealthy opponents, levels of rogue are associated For spellcasting opponents, levels of wizard/sorcerer/cleric are associated. Many people think that cleric levels are powerful enough that they are always associated. For your beholder: I am not sure what I would call associated or not. I might consider giving the beholder a magic item that is powered by a central eye ray that can cast dimension door, or simply a cape of the montebank that only transports 1 the user and nobody else... those are both methods that will not really help your party. Regarding your party... You can play whatever kind of game you want. I personally will not play with a DM that either has not read about appropriate gear value for PCs per level... or that has read it but doesn't understand it.
lifespeed 03-28-05, 08:45 PM	Thanks. I'll have to look into the cape idea. As for character wealth, I understand how the table works, but I feel that some of the numbers are a little high, and so my PCs are a little below average I think, but I haven't gotten around to totaling up everybody's total GP value. It's something to think about. As for the mace, I refuse to allow a bland +1 mace or somesuch in my game, so when they went to identify the mace they got off the BBEG from The Burning Plague and the longsword from The Ettin's Riddle, I rolled up abilities for them. They ended up with a ghost touch mace and a frost longsword. The rogue is holding onto the mace for now as he has the second highest Strength score, and they gave the sword to the ranger, who traded it for a shock warhammer, for which he still owes the merchant a favor. In the two adventures I've run that I actually wrote, I've yet to give them any magic items so the rogue, druid and sorceress are actually a little wanting, but they could have sold both weapons and decided not to. Personally, I don't feel the need to enforce some kind of fair share rule to make my players split everything four ways, as it's their loot. They split cash five ways, throwing in for a party fund, and dole out other loot as they see fit. It works for them and it works for the group I play in. Ouch, didn't mean to hijack my own thread there, but I felt the need to explain things, as you seemed to be knocking my DMing style. You probably weren't though, so I probably went through all that for no reason. Oh well! So, anybody else got some helpful beholder tips?
Frostwind 03-28-05, 08:54 PM	If you have RoF, it includes beholder mage, a PrC for Beholder only. Its a pretty nasty class that would allow a beholder to cast spell multiple spell per round as a mage. Only problem is that I don't think you could apply it to a gauth, as the main prerequisite for the class is to "put out central antimagic eye". As gauth does not have antimagic eye, I don't think they could qualify for the class. Giving Item to beholder is a difficult thing for DMs. The only item they could wear would be rings, or maybe amulets (most of them don't have a neck so I'm not sure if they could :rolleyes: ). hope that help Frostwind
Cathon 03-28-05, 09:04 PM	I'm not sure about Gauth Beholders, but I believe beholders have telekinesis to handle things with. Other possibilities are a magic item that lets him cast open and close many times per day. Most beholders surround themselves with slaves, so he might just have some goblins or kobolds around to handle those silly door issues and maybe hollow out some areas in the ceiling for him to retreat to.
Frostwind 03-28-05, 09:16 PM	Most Beholder does not need Kobold to walk around dugeons, they just use disintegrate! :) I don't know if you could control object with the same finess as hand with telekinesis... ugh (just looked in my PHB)... I'm wrong. the SRD says that Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks. Sounds like a beholder can open door without any help! (those kobold would get annoying after all...) If that is true, Beholder could hold object like wand or staffs without problems. Hope that help Frostwind
olshanski_home 03-28-05, 10:24 PM	[QUOTE=lifespeed]As for character wealth, I understand how the table works, but I feel that some of the numbers are a little high, and so my PCs are a little below average I think, but I haven't gotten around to totaling up everybody's total GP value. It's something to think about. As for the mace, I refuse to allow a bland +1 mace or somesuch in my game, so when they went to identify the mace they got off the BBEG from The Burning Plague and the longsword from The Ettin's Riddle, I rolled up abilities for them. They ended up with a ghost touch mace and a frost longsword. The rogue is holding onto the mace for now as he has the second highest Strength score, and they gave the sword to the ranger, who traded it for a shock warhammer, for which he still owes the merchant a favor. In the two adventures I've run that I actually wrote, I've yet to give them any magic items so the rogue, druid and sorceress are actually a little wanting, but they could have sold both weapons and decided not to. Personally, I don't feel the need to enforce some kind of fair share rule to make my players split everything four ways, as it's their loot. They split cash five ways, throwing in for a party fund, and dole out other loot as they see fit. It works for them and it works for the group I play in. Ouch, didn't mean to hijack my own thread there, but I felt the need to explain things, as you seemed to be knocking my DMing style. You probably weren't though, so I probably went through all that for no reason. Oh well![QUOTE] No, you were right, I was knocking your style. Estimated wealth for 3rd level person is 2700. I usually spread the stuff around so I think no single item should be more than 1/2 of a person's wealth... but I also allow some leeway... they might get something a level early... A 3rd level person might have a +1 weapon... a 4th level fighter almost certainly should have a +1 weapon. your +1 ghost touch mace, shock hammer, and frost longsword are worth 8300+ gp each... those are items appropriate for a 6th level people if you are very generous... 7th level people would be more appropriate. Part of my reaction is because I don't know what a gauth beholder is... so I sort of assumed it was on a par with a regular beholder and appropriate for 11th level characters. When I hear "3rd level party with +2 weapons taking on beholders" I just think that something isn't exactly right. The 3rd level characters in my games are seriously threatened by a pair of ghasts or a couple of wererat warriors.
Nom 03-28-05, 10:51 PM	How do you add class levels to something like a beholder that has a CR but no level adjustment?Well, you've already mentioned that your PCs are somewhat over-powered, so let's ignore CR. Likewise, LA isn't needed unless you really need to know the creature's ECL; monsters with LA but no "X as characters" are intended purely as cohorts or similar. Monsters with LA: - aren't even intended for that. So just deal with your beholder on his own merits. He already has racial HD, so just add the class levels as seems appropriate. For power, eyeball (pun not intended) him off against the party and play through some encounter scenarios in your mind; the party doesn't match their "average party level", so CR won't help you much.
Darth Snig 03-28-05, 11:04 PM	Going by the description in the MM something expendable, weak and easily dominated. I'd have to agree with the goblin/kobold slaves. Even orc or gnoll slaves could work. If the gauth is living in a dugeon with other monsters living there as well its going to try to dominate and control as many as it can get away with. Slaves will be the work the best IMO. The gauth can travel freely through its controlled areas and there's no magic item to worry about. Hope this helps.:behold:
lifespeed 03-28-05, 11:11 PM	Part of my reaction is because I don't know what a gauth beholder is... so I sort of assumed it was on a par with a regular beholder and appropriate for 11th level characters. When I hear "3rd level party with +2 weapons taking on beholders" I just think that something isn't exactly right. The 3rd level characters in my games are seriously threatened by a pair of ghasts or a couple of wererat warriors. Gauth are weaker beholders with only 6 eyestalks, and they can't insta-kill and so on. Actually, each of the weapons is equivilent to a +1 weapon, as they only have the abilities, it's just a masterwork mace with ghost touch, and a masterwork hammer with the shock ability, so they're both in the 2300 gp range. No +2s at all. And besides, if I did have 3rd level characters with +2 weapons taking on beholders, and me and my players were having fun, why is there something wrong with that? Isn't the point of the game to have fun?
olshanski_home 03-28-05, 11:52 PM	Actually, each of the weapons is equivilent to a +1 weapon, as they only have the abilities, it's just a masterwork mace with ghost touch, and a masterwork hammer with the shock ability, so they're both in the 2300 gp range. No +2s at all. And besides, if I did have 3rd level characters with +2 weapons taking on beholders, and me and my players were having fun, why is there something wrong with that? Isn't the point of the game to have fun? According to the rules, you cannot have a frost, shocking, or ghost touch weapon without at least a +1 enchantment. You'll have to forgive me for assuming that a ghost touch/frost/or shocking weapon was at least +2 because that's how the rules were written. Saying that a frost or ghost touch "masterwork" weapon is only equivalent to +1 is also not correct. Look at it this way: the difference between a masterwork sword and a +1 sword is +1 damage. (they both have the same +1 to hit). That is a difference of 2000 in price. The frost is +1d6 damage... that is a lot more than just +1 damage... and nowhere near the same in price. The ghost touch weapon has the ability to always hit ethereal and insubstantial creatures... that is another significant ability.... there is a reason that weapons are required to be at least +1 before they gain additional enchantments, and part of it is to balance the price. Is there anything wrong with having fun? No. Should you and your players be able to play any way you want? Of course. I look at it this way... my son doesn't know how to ride his tricycle... but he does have a lot of fun spinning the wheels when the tricycle is turned on its side. When his legs are long enough I will teach him to ride the tricycle, and I think he will have even more fun then.
lifespeed 03-29-05, 12:50 AM	Thanks for pointing that out, I guess I missed that in the book.
d00m_b4b00n 03-29-05, 10:33 AM	The MM does talk about how there are many species of beholders with different appearances and abilities. If opening doors are a problem then give it a telekinesis eye (with a low caster level so as not to be unbalancing) In regards to treasure, let them have a big pile of whatever, beholders are nothing if not greedy. It's sort of a dog in the manger thing, but with arm envy...