Being cruel to be kind... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Being cruel to be kind... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Toby
10-22-05, 05:22 AM Ive just started DMing for a small group one of which has the attention span of a goldfish, all he ever does is look through books on how to improve his character, currently a rogue, and turn him into an assassin. He pays little attention to whats going on even in fights, so I started hitting him with stuff like falling masonry and wandering monsters whenever his attention was elsewhere and now he's complaining that i'm being heavy handed and picking on him. I've asked him out of game if he's enjoying the game and he says he is but wont listen when I try to get him to pay more attention. The rest of the party are ****** at him too. Am I being harsh? Is there a better way to deal with this?
Leap_UK
10-22-05, 05:55 AM When you say he isnt paying attention in battles, test this by having someone target him specifically and come after him on the grounds that "he doesnt look like he knows what he's doing, as compared to the others"......predators always go for the weak.

He will probably grow out of the book fetish thing (or become a rules lawyer (groan)) in time....and if not, well you are running a game not a charity. Take a hint from nature - which teaches us not to do stupid things by making them hurt.....
punisher911
10-22-05, 05:56 AM First of all, make sure you never confront a player during the group. You should always do it alone on a 1 on 1 level so he doesn't feel isolated and think everybody is against him.
1. Players should only have their PHB with them during the game anyway. Just stress to the player that game time is game time. Character and all other research should be in between gaming sessions.
2. Once again and most importantly, players should only have the PHB in their immediate possession during games. That should also help dispell the "research" he's doing during the sessions.
3. You should also let him know that you and the other party members would like him to pay more attention to the intimate details of the situations you give because as a Rogue, he needs to know when and where to look for possible traps and the like. You could do things like set traps that would effect the whole group as not to single out any one player. Let them teamwork their way out of a nice pit trap that he shoud have found if he was paying attention and doing his Roguely duties.

...and yes I said "Roguely"

Hope that helps.
Kursk
10-22-05, 11:22 AM When you say he isnt paying attention in battles, test this by having someone target him specifically and come after him on the grounds that "he doesnt look like he knows what he's doing, as compared to the others"......predators always go for the weak.

Great one!
Robert 22
10-22-05, 11:58 AM 1. Players should only have their PHB with them during the game anyway. Just stress to the player that game time is game time. Character and all other research should be in between gaming sessions.

Don't even let them have a PHB. This really is a very modern sort of thing. When I started rulebooks were expensive and people played multiple games. You simply couldn't afford to all have a copy of the rules. I find it truly bizarre when GMs allow players to walk in with a handful of books under their arm. Nobody should have more than a character sheet and a notepad at the table. Equipment lists, a checklist of common actions, and a few other tables might be handy in certain circumstances, but the players should not have them, you should.

Robert
allencon
10-22-05, 01:38 PM Well short attention spans can be an issue. Perhaps this particular person neeeds a different module for interacting. As some people learn/ pay attention better in lectures, or tactile experiences, or personal research, maybe trying to work with him to find something he could do at table time that would be part of what's happening with the others. That way he could contribute, still pay attention in a modality that appealed to his particular sensory response dynamics.

As for "banning all materials but the character sheets," I don't think works well in most situations. Yes people should have all foreseeable information within their character sheets, but banning things like the basic rule book when looking for insight on a particular situation that is happening at game time, or for those classes who prepare spells each day and unlike "this other poster" can't "memorize" every spell on their list without referrence to a book, isn't a problem.

Checking for rules should not however take up a large portion of time. Dm's should be highly knoweledgible in regards to the rules and game mechanics. Rulebooks are still expensive, perhaps proportionately even more so than when they were first produced. To that end there's nothing wrong with people sharing matterial. But the outright banning of players bringing anything but their character sheets is asking for trouble in most situations. Especially for newer players who don't understand the mechanics of the game too well.

Remember DND from the dungeon master's perspective IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR EGO, OR YOUR STORY LINE. It is about YOUR PLAYERS, and ultimately how they decide to tell their characters stories within the set of circumstances you provide. If the players have no problems taking more time to check on rules, that is their perogative. YOUR JOB as a DM is to facilitate them in finding the information they need. Not to act as some high and mighty font of all knoweledge who is offended when his players start thinking and learning for themselves.
rbrt_Spade
10-22-05, 01:47 PM Don't even let them have a PHB. This really is a very modern sort of thing. When I started rulebooks were expensive and people played multiple games. You simply couldn't afford to all have a copy of the rules. I find it truly bizarre when GMs allow players to walk in with a handful of books under their arm. Nobody should have more than a character sheet and a notepad at the table. Equipment lists, a checklist of common actions, and a few other tables might be handy in certain circumstances, but the players should not have them, you should.

Robert

you need them for spells and other things for actions. i dont expect my players to memorize every spell and rule in the book. also the player should bring anything that they are using from a non core book
Rabid Dire Wolverine
10-22-05, 02:24 PM I know what it's like to have a short attention- wait, gotta go.
imperialjunkie
10-22-05, 03:11 PM Ive just started DMing for a small group one of which has the attention span of a goldfish, all he ever does is look through books on how to improve his character, currently a rogue, and turn him into an assassin. He pays little attention to whats going on even in fights, so I started hitting him with stuff like falling masonry and wandering monsters whenever his attention was elsewhere and now he's complaining that i'm being heavy handed and picking on him. I've asked him out of game if he's enjoying the game and he says he is but wont listen when I try to get him to pay more attention. The rest of the party are ****** at him too. Am I being harsh? Is there a better way to deal with this?
Is he a new player? If so, his fascination with books and rules might be his way of learning the game. I'd let it slide in this case and focus on the other players.

If he's a vet and this is his play-style, then confront him about it away from the group. Just be firm yet kind about how you'd like the game to run. Player attention and teamwork is important to you. That's fair. A veteran player will respect this or move on.
Talonz
10-22-05, 03:49 PM Remember DND from the dungeon master's perspective IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR EGO, OR YOUR STORY LINE. It is about YOUR PLAYERS, and ultimately how they decide to tell their characters stories within the set of circumstances you provide.

You know I am getting really tired of seeing this. Is not the gm in it for the fun of the game as well? Doesn't his enjoyment come from telling his story and seeing how the players play their role within it?

The gm is not there simply to serve the players. It is a group effort or it is a failed effort.
rbrt_Spade
10-22-05, 04:04 PM i second that.
Blazara
10-22-05, 04:33 PM you need them for spells and other things for actions. i dont expect my players to memorize every spell and rule in the book. also the player should bring anything that they are using from a non core book

For the spell problem, download a spell list. It takes about 1 minute to find it and there is one for every class. It tells you all the basic stuff on there for each spell and the saves etc.. for actions get the reference table from the back of the DMG and photocopy it.
Darrett
10-22-05, 04:44 PM Don't even let them have a PHB. This really is a very modern sort of thing. When I started rulebooks were expensive and people played multiple games. You simply couldn't afford to all have a copy of the rules. I find it truly bizarre when GMs allow players to walk in with a handful of books under their arm. Nobody should have more than a character sheet and a notepad at the table. Equipment lists, a checklist of common actions, and a few other tables might be handy in certain circumstances, but the players should not have them, you should.

Robert

Agreed. The only thing I allow players to have are character sheets, a notepad, dice, and spell lists.

Other books are kept off the table while we play, so people aren't looking up their next few feats during game time.
Bowlich
10-22-05, 06:06 PM I seem to have a different opinion on the handling of books then the other's in this topic: I encourage my players to bring as many books as they can haul to the session. Reason being. I'm very open to allowing players to chose spells from nearly any sourcebook published by wizards (and a handful of those that are not), I've expanded the summoning list, making it possible at higher levels to summon monsters from nearly any of the monster manuals, I make heavy use of certain books (such as stormwracked) in my campaigns making these books even more important at times then the PHB.

As the DM, I'm referencing these books almost constantly throughout the session--and I don't want to have to lend them out constantly to players. Doing so devoids me of being able to look through the books when I need them. Allowing players to copy the pages they need out of these books would be a waste of paper as by the time each was done they'd probably be carrying around 100+ pages each. (spells, stats for summoned monsters, rule for various exotic pieces of equipement, how different feats work, rules for different combat maneuvers, stats for ships, lists of poisons, lists of cooking supplies etc.)

Usually the demand for books is not as grand when the player's are in combat, its when they're preparing for combat--plotting out their battlefield strategies and selecting which items they'll bring with them onto the field in which a lot of books have to be pulled out and consulted. Additionally it would be a complete pain to have only one copy of the arms and equipement guild when the player's reach town. The cook is going to want to look through the book to pick out the spices he wants, the rogue is going to want to pick out some new poisons, etc. etc. Having one copy of this book would make going to town take forever as it would have to passed around to each player.

(and god forbid you ever try to level up with just one set of books. . . it already takes them over an hour to that with each having their own set)
Toby
10-23-05, 05:50 PM Cheers for the replies guy's, yeah the players new and I understand he's keen to learn but it'd be nice to ask him what his characters doing without having to repeat all the background info or what everyone else is doing. I think i'll ban all books except players guide during play time and see where I get with that. Thanks again n may your dice roll high!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Toby 10-22-05, 05:22 AM	Ive just started DMing for a small group one of which has the attention span of a goldfish, all he ever does is look through books on how to improve his character, currently a rogue, and turn him into an assassin. He pays little attention to whats going on even in fights, so I started hitting him with stuff like falling masonry and wandering monsters whenever his attention was elsewhere and now he's complaining that i'm being heavy handed and picking on him. I've asked him out of game if he's enjoying the game and he says he is but wont listen when I try to get him to pay more attention. The rest of the party are ****** at him too. Am I being harsh? Is there a better way to deal with this?
Leap_UK 10-22-05, 05:55 AM	When you say he isnt paying attention in battles, test this by having someone target him specifically and come after him on the grounds that "he doesnt look like he knows what he's doing, as compared to the others"......predators always go for the weak. He will probably grow out of the book fetish thing (or become a rules lawyer (groan)) in time....and if not, well you are running a game not a charity. Take a hint from nature - which teaches us not to do stupid things by making them hurt.....
punisher911 10-22-05, 05:56 AM	First of all, make sure you never confront a player during the group. You should always do it alone on a 1 on 1 level so he doesn't feel isolated and think everybody is against him. 1. Players should only have their PHB with them during the game anyway. Just stress to the player that game time is game time. Character and all other research should be in between gaming sessions. 2. Once again and most importantly, players should only have the PHB in their immediate possession during games. That should also help dispell the "research" he's doing during the sessions. 3. You should also let him know that you and the other party members would like him to pay more attention to the intimate details of the situations you give because as a Rogue, he needs to know when and where to look for possible traps and the like. You could do things like set traps that would effect the whole group as not to single out any one player. Let them teamwork their way out of a nice pit trap that he shoud have found if he was paying attention and doing his Roguely duties. ...and yes I said "Roguely" Hope that helps.
Kursk 10-22-05, 11:22 AM	When you say he isnt paying attention in battles, test this by having someone target him specifically and come after him on the grounds that "he doesnt look like he knows what he's doing, as compared to the others"......predators always go for the weak. Great one!
Robert 22 10-22-05, 11:58 AM	1. Players should only have their PHB with them during the game anyway. Just stress to the player that game time is game time. Character and all other research should be in between gaming sessions. Don't even let them have a PHB. This really is a very modern sort of thing. When I started rulebooks were expensive and people played multiple games. You simply couldn't afford to all have a copy of the rules. I find it truly bizarre when GMs allow players to walk in with a handful of books under their arm. Nobody should have more than a character sheet and a notepad at the table. Equipment lists, a checklist of common actions, and a few other tables might be handy in certain circumstances, but the players should not have them, you should. Robert
allencon 10-22-05, 01:38 PM	Well short attention spans can be an issue. Perhaps this particular person neeeds a different module for interacting. As some people learn/ pay attention better in lectures, or tactile experiences, or personal research, maybe trying to work with him to find something he could do at table time that would be part of what's happening with the others. That way he could contribute, still pay attention in a modality that appealed to his particular sensory response dynamics. As for "banning all materials but the character sheets," I don't think works well in most situations. Yes people should have all foreseeable information within their character sheets, but banning things like the basic rule book when looking for insight on a particular situation that is happening at game time, or for those classes who prepare spells each day and unlike "this other poster" can't "memorize" every spell on their list without referrence to a book, isn't a problem. Checking for rules should not however take up a large portion of time. Dm's should be highly knoweledgible in regards to the rules and game mechanics. Rulebooks are still expensive, perhaps proportionately even more so than when they were first produced. To that end there's nothing wrong with people sharing matterial. But the outright banning of players bringing anything but their character sheets is asking for trouble in most situations. Especially for newer players who don't understand the mechanics of the game too well. Remember DND from the dungeon master's perspective IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR EGO, OR YOUR STORY LINE. It is about YOUR PLAYERS, and ultimately how they decide to tell their characters stories within the set of circumstances you provide. If the players have no problems taking more time to check on rules, that is their perogative. YOUR JOB as a DM is to facilitate them in finding the information they need. Not to act as some high and mighty font of all knoweledge who is offended when his players start thinking and learning for themselves.
rbrt_Spade 10-22-05, 01:47 PM	Don't even let them have a PHB. This really is a very modern sort of thing. When I started rulebooks were expensive and people played multiple games. You simply couldn't afford to all have a copy of the rules. I find it truly bizarre when GMs allow players to walk in with a handful of books under their arm. Nobody should have more than a character sheet and a notepad at the table. Equipment lists, a checklist of common actions, and a few other tables might be handy in certain circumstances, but the players should not have them, you should. Robert you need them for spells and other things for actions. i dont expect my players to memorize every spell and rule in the book. also the player should bring anything that they are using from a non core book
Rabid Dire Wolverine 10-22-05, 02:24 PM	I know what it's like to have a short attention- wait, gotta go.
imperialjunkie 10-22-05, 03:11 PM	Ive just started DMing for a small group one of which has the attention span of a goldfish, all he ever does is look through books on how to improve his character, currently a rogue, and turn him into an assassin. He pays little attention to whats going on even in fights, so I started hitting him with stuff like falling masonry and wandering monsters whenever his attention was elsewhere and now he's complaining that i'm being heavy handed and picking on him. I've asked him out of game if he's enjoying the game and he says he is but wont listen when I try to get him to pay more attention. The rest of the party are ****** at him too. Am I being harsh? Is there a better way to deal with this? Is he a new player? If so, his fascination with books and rules might be his way of learning the game. I'd let it slide in this case and focus on the other players. If he's a vet and this is his play-style, then confront him about it away from the group. Just be firm yet kind about how you'd like the game to run. Player attention and teamwork is important to you. That's fair. A veteran player will respect this or move on.
Talonz 10-22-05, 03:49 PM	Remember DND from the dungeon master's perspective IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR EGO, OR YOUR STORY LINE. It is about YOUR PLAYERS, and ultimately how they decide to tell their characters stories within the set of circumstances you provide. You know I am getting really tired of seeing this. Is not the gm in it for the fun of the game as well? Doesn't his enjoyment come from telling his story and seeing how the players play their role within it? The gm is not there simply to serve the players. It is a group effort or it is a failed effort.
rbrt_Spade 10-22-05, 04:04 PM	i second that.
Blazara 10-22-05, 04:33 PM	you need them for spells and other things for actions. i dont expect my players to memorize every spell and rule in the book. also the player should bring anything that they are using from a non core book For the spell problem, download a spell list. It takes about 1 minute to find it and there is one for every class. It tells you all the basic stuff on there for each spell and the saves etc.. for actions get the reference table from the back of the DMG and photocopy it.
Darrett 10-22-05, 04:44 PM	Don't even let them have a PHB. This really is a very modern sort of thing. When I started rulebooks were expensive and people played multiple games. You simply couldn't afford to all have a copy of the rules. I find it truly bizarre when GMs allow players to walk in with a handful of books under their arm. Nobody should have more than a character sheet and a notepad at the table. Equipment lists, a checklist of common actions, and a few other tables might be handy in certain circumstances, but the players should not have them, you should. Robert Agreed. The only thing I allow players to have are character sheets, a notepad, dice, and spell lists. Other books are kept off the table while we play, so people aren't looking up their next few feats during game time.
Bowlich 10-22-05, 06:06 PM	I seem to have a different opinion on the handling of books then the other's in this topic: I encourage my players to bring as many books as they can haul to the session. Reason being. I'm very open to allowing players to chose spells from nearly any sourcebook published by wizards (and a handful of those that are not), I've expanded the summoning list, making it possible at higher levels to summon monsters from nearly any of the monster manuals, I make heavy use of certain books (such as stormwracked) in my campaigns making these books even more important at times then the PHB. As the DM, I'm referencing these books almost constantly throughout the session--and I don't want to have to lend them out constantly to players. Doing so devoids me of being able to look through the books when I need them. Allowing players to copy the pages they need out of these books would be a waste of paper as by the time each was done they'd probably be carrying around 100+ pages each. (spells, stats for summoned monsters, rule for various exotic pieces of equipement, how different feats work, rules for different combat maneuvers, stats for ships, lists of poisons, lists of cooking supplies etc.) Usually the demand for books is not as grand when the player's are in combat, its when they're preparing for combat--plotting out their battlefield strategies and selecting which items they'll bring with them onto the field in which a lot of books have to be pulled out and consulted. Additionally it would be a complete pain to have only one copy of the arms and equipement guild when the player's reach town. The cook is going to want to look through the book to pick out the spices he wants, the rogue is going to want to pick out some new poisons, etc. etc. Having one copy of this book would make going to town take forever as it would have to passed around to each player. (and god forbid you ever try to level up with just one set of books. . . it already takes them over an hour to that with each having their own set)
Toby 10-23-05, 05:50 PM	Cheers for the replies guy's, yeah the players new and I understand he's keen to learn but it'd be nice to ask him what his characters doing without having to repeat all the background info or what everyone else is doing. I think i'll ban all books except players guide during play time and see where I get with that. Thanks again n may your dice roll high!