Being Evil [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Being Evil [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
True Cavalier
02-06-05, 01:16 PM Greets

A character in my group is going all the way to chaoticness, and he now wants to assasinate a bartender that tried to steal from the group in the last session.
This is in a very lawfulish town, though it has its problems, and he may get away with it. I am all for giving PCs many options, but there are a few issues.

1) I suspect that player wants just to try that, get killed, and make a new char. What do you think about switching characters mid-campaign? It somewhat ruins my plotline at this stage (relatively early in the campaign). Anyway, I made it clear to him that making new chars is possible but new chars will be 1 level below old chars.

2) In-group fighting. The party has, besides the evil sorcerer, a LG cleric and a LN dwarf. If the sorcerer kills the NPC, the other two are bound to know eventually, and it may turn out well (with no fight, or with the sorc leaving) but what if it causes the group to break apart? It would screw the plotline big time, if everyone had to make new characters.

I am afraid of the 2nd problem, especially since I am pretty sure the dwarf won't take sides and it will be just an issue among the cleric and sorcerer. I am not expecting ooc fighting in any way, but remaking new characters for everyone... well...

What would you do? Is the "Let PCs do what they want in the world" important enough to take the risk for creation of new characters? Should PCs shut up and go on the next adventure :P ? Or maybe I should try a more diplomatic (though it may sound bad) approach, like having the NPC in question fall victim to a disease and die, or fall victim to assasins (that have been stalking the players for some time), or just be SO GOOD to the players from now on, that the sorcerer won't be interested in killing her any more?
murte
02-06-05, 02:11 PM It is a game, not a story. Your plotline is not the object of the game, having fun is. The plot might make it more interesting, but is in the end, inconsequential.

Breaking the law is not evil. Revenge killing is not necessarily evil. However, if the LG cleric feels it was bad enough, I doubt his/her god will allow healing to work on this transgressor until amends can be made.

If the Player is not having fun with the Character let them retire anywhere except in the middle of a dungeon. Your rule about new PC's come in 1 level under the lowest party member is a good one, maybe even too leniant.
discipleofevil
02-06-05, 03:22 PM how about the bartender just happens to fear for his life so he hired bodyguards. bodyguards use subduel damage to knock out the pc without killing him. turn pc over to authorities. player must now decide whether or not to play this pc. if the answer is no and he brings in a new one, then make the new pc a cell mate of the old one and the old one told him what has been happening and vowes to help out the other pcs.
problem solved
as far as penalties, its not really killing the pc, but i still say make the new one 1 lvl lower then the lowest party member. this will discourage the replacement char theory.
charred
02-06-05, 03:31 PM I can't say it better than murte did, so lets just say that I competely agree with him. Your plot is the background, not the goal. I think you should let the sorceror do it. You can't let another player's diapproval of another's actions dictate who can and can't do things in the game. The sorceror has as much right to their choice of action as anyone else. Would you try to prevent the cleric from donating to the poor if it would make the sorceror furious because the PC thinks it is a waste of money?
True Cavalier
02-06-05, 05:42 PM Would you try to prevent the cleric from donating to the poor if it would make the sorceror furious because the PC thinks it is a waste of money?

This HAS come up before, repeatedly :D The cleric did it, of course.

I'l let him go on with it. And maybe stress the fact that said npc is a scum (well, she is... just doesn't deserve death) so that the cleric can reluctantly take it.

Of course I am still going to be tough with the law. Make him be smart about it or he can get caught.
Andrew_980
02-06-05, 05:42 PM this is why every version of D+D says PCs should not be evil
raido
02-06-05, 10:54 PM My thought would be to let it happen.
The good thing about something like that is that while it may mess up the story or plot a little, the event could provide a multitude of side-quests or plots down the track.

e.g. Bartender killed now. Sometime later the brother/sister/father/son/daughter/relative is looking for the person who killed them, or has hired an arbiter to seek out the person and seek retribution. Or, better yet, bartender rises as a restless spirit and spends the rest of the campaign tailing the character and ridiculing every action, commenting on every deed, and spoiling anything the character tries to do that requires subtlety. That would be humourous (well, to me at least! hehe)...

I would see these situations as exciting possibilities for you to expand your story in ways you didnt originally think of. Also, creating a fluid campaign that responds to the players will encourage immersion in your story, and everyone will enjoy it more!!

yours,
~raido.
Well, that's my 2 cents.
clarkvalentine
02-06-05, 11:16 PM Never "disallow" the players to do things. However, keep some things in mind.

- Actions should have consequences. Evil characters should be treated as such by NPCs. Very Evil characters should be known far and wide, and treated accordingly.

- The GM's story might not be important, but many players consider it important that the game tell some story, rather than be a series of unconnected events.

- Have Fun is the most important goal. I've found that a party that cannot work together is extremely un-fun to a lot of players. If this is the case for some of the players in your group, reminding the others of this might be a good idea.
True Cavalier
02-07-05, 02:17 PM I am blessed with a good group, there won't be any real problem there. But it would be perfectly in character if the cleric abandoned them after this, or turned to the authorities, it would break the group, and the story can only continue as long as at least one party member remains alive.

As for the consequences, I am using a very nice reputation system. The work has been done already.

And the sorcerer did not start as evil - I would want to avoid having a good and an evil char together. The sorcerer started as Chaotic Good, then insisted in coup-de-gracing foes he had put to sleep, then he stole (from the npc he wants to kill) and now he is planning to commit murder.

In NO way am I going to say "No". But I could "subtly" (sort of...) prevent it if I wanted, eg by keeping the PCs REALLY busy with everything else around them (eg the main plot that is thickening) or by simply getting rid of the npc myself (eg since her inn was ruined, she could just leave town).

Another thing is that said player has not yet told me how he wants to go about doing it. He just mentioned it in what he wants to do in the near future. I think playing murderers in MMORPGs has done him some harm :D
kliate
02-07-05, 08:14 PM Lets see how this might play out...

If the Sorceror offs the bartender quietly, see scenario 1
Otherwise, see scenario 2

Scenario 1:
The bartender's staff show up to prep the bar for another busy night, only to find that he hasn't shown up. Out of concern, one of the barmaids runs over to the bartender's home (never mind if it's the upstairs of the bar or down the street - she looks for him) and either finds no trace of him (see scenario 3) or his corpse (see scenario 4)

Scenario 2:
Realising his life is in danger, the bartender lets out a scream. If possible, he runs for his life into the most public area he can get to while continuing to make as much noise as he can. If the bartender reaches a friend or town guard, see scenario 5. If the bartender is killed before he can reach anyone, see scenario 6.

Scenario 3:
Growing worried about the missing bartender, the barmaid returns to the bar distraught. After considerable discussion, the bar is closed with an explanation that the bartender has gone mysteriously missing. This prompts local authorities and adventurers to investigate the situation and bring anyone responsible to justice. <end>

Scenario 4:
The barmaid screams at the sight of the corpse, and runs into the city street, panicked. After the concerned townsfolk try to calm her down, she relays the horrific story of her finding. If the corpse is positioned in a manner that the barmaid may be held responsible for, see scenario 7. Otherwise, see scenario 8

Scenario 5:
The friend of the bartender interposes himself between the bartender and the attacking sorceror. The bartender is encouraged to go find more help to stop the murderous lunatic. <end>

Scenario 6:
One or more locals may have witnessed the murder despite being unable to interfere. Continue through scenario 1, except that certain witnesses may be able to come forth and help identify the murderer.

Scenario 7:
The barmaid will be held as a potential suspect, although she will try to get whatever friends and family she has to prove her innocence. If the witnesses from scenario 6 are involved, her innocence may be proven easily (unless the sorceror decided to disguise himself as a barmaid?). Otherwise, those who care about the barmaid will attempt everything within reason to discover what actually happened. <end>

Scenario 8:
The townsfolk and authorities grow worried about the death. Guards are increased everywhere, patrolling the streets at night. Outsiders of the town will be looked at suspiciously and may even be ostracized. If any evidence links the attack as being magical in nature, outside spellcasters will be treated with both fear and disrespect. Local clerics will attempt to commune with their deities (or otherwise divine what is going on) to bring the guilty party to justice. <end>

Of course, there are several other ways of dealing with the situation if you do let it go through. Perhaps one enjoyable possibility would be to allow the murder to happen and have the party hired to see what they can find out. If the other players don't know about the sorceror's murder and nature, you'll have an opportunity for a particularly interesting adventure.
ShadowDragon8685
02-07-05, 08:24 PM I enforce a "No NonGood character" policy. I also enforce a policy if "If your character ever falls from Goodness, they cease being a character and become an NPC unless you mean to Atone them, and fast."
FriendoftheDork
02-07-05, 10:17 PM evil character is not a problem. Characters not accepting each others alignments is. Either enforce a group alignment or let the players choose one. Then every PC has to stick to that or leave the group.

As long as the evil PC murders the bartender in quiet and the cleric doesen't find out, everything's fine. If he reveals it though, the cleric should try to talk him out of it.

It amazes me how many DMs allow the PC to create characters with no regard to alignment then comes to this board to rant about it. The core rules should say something about this, as far as I know only the BoVD does this sufficiently.

Atm i play in two evil campaigns and DM one myself and it's fine as long as the players can agree to accept one another. Even some metagaming on this can help alot. Bottom line is for everyone to have fun, and having your PC killed/betrayed by party member is not fun for both.
Warslayngawds
02-08-05, 03:20 AM My 2cp, is that when putting together groups of PC's (usually with the same players) abide by one of the 2 rules
All characters must be either Good and Neutral or Evil and Neutral, thus in an Evilly aligned game neurtal characters are welcome, but good ones are not. The oppostite would be true for Good aligned games, neutral characters are ok, but Evil ones are not.
or, All alignments are kept purely between the characters player and the DM exclusivly, the other players don't need to know what it is.

With your actual situtation, if the players are not going to turn on each other after their characters do, and every action is taken wholly within alignment and is IC, don't fight it, what comes of it will likely be as much fun as any plot you can come up with. Possibly you may even be able to incorporate their actions into the grand scheme you have planned, that would be best.

As a side note, when I finally figured out that I couldn't pull my players around by the nose and insist they get involved in the plot of my campaigns, I found that we all had a lot more fun and they got involved in the story more. I just had to give them reasons they would in character. It helps when you know the beginning, and the end, just let them fill in the middle.
Tuneless Bard
02-08-05, 08:30 AM I do not allow players to be Chaotic Evil....which is what the sorcerer seems to be...If I feel a player is ever having an alignment shift towards chaotic evil, I will give them one warning....if they do not heed the warning, then I alter thier alignment and take over the character....perhaps to become a villian later on...

regardless...an evil person should not be in a group with a good person...and even more importantly, a person with such obvious chaotic tendancies should not be in a group with a lawful person...

tell the player that he needs to get attonement cast on himself or roll up a new character....

and as a side note, any time i feel a player is intentionally trying to get rid of thier character, whether just plain saying it or doing stupid things to try to die or screw up the order of everything....I make them lose two levels...
True Cavalier
02-09-05, 07:56 AM First of all, as I said, he did not start as evil. He has not even done anything evil - yet, he was just kind enough to inform me about his future plans.

I really like the various scenarios above. A few nice ideas too :D

Maybe I will talk to him and give him all options, then let him decide. The way I see it, he will perform the evil deed, and immediately after his character will become an NPC, and he can make a new one as he wants, without breaking the party. Then there's an adventure about hunting the old character down.
Cantankerous
02-09-05, 01:24 PM First up, killing is in no way chaotic. It can be evil, but chaotic? Nope.

If killing were chaotic, even in the most lawful of societies, then every devil (Baatorian) in existence would be chaotic evil, not lawful evil. Commiting an act that is counter to the specific laws of a specific culture is not even unlawful per se, if it is otherwise traditionally valid, such as murdering your rival in the Hells. It would be easy to imagine it being against the laws of some of the given places within the Hells (like in the Iron City of Dis for instance) but it is still within the ethic of the alignment... just don't get caught.

Killing a person who has stolen from you is almost always evil though... as a matter of proportion, so I absolutely can NOT see a supposedly lawful good Cleric condoning such an action.

Isshia
aaron3579
02-09-05, 02:50 PM First up, killing is in no way chaotic. It can be evil, but chaotic? Nope.
Isshia

I agree that ending life is nether *inherently* lawful or chaotic, as it can be used either to promote or to attack order.

However, killing can certainly be chaotic; the assassination of JFK is a prime example of an effort to spread chaos, as are many assassinations of public officials (District Attorneys are another good example).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
True Cavalier 02-06-05, 01:16 PM	Greets A character in my group is going all the way to chaoticness, and he now wants to assasinate a bartender that tried to steal from the group in the last session. This is in a very lawfulish town, though it has its problems, and he may get away with it. I am all for giving PCs many options, but there are a few issues. 1) I suspect that player wants just to try that, get killed, and make a new char. What do you think about switching characters mid-campaign? It somewhat ruins my plotline at this stage (relatively early in the campaign). Anyway, I made it clear to him that making new chars is possible but new chars will be 1 level below old chars. 2) In-group fighting. The party has, besides the evil sorcerer, a LG cleric and a LN dwarf. If the sorcerer kills the NPC, the other two are bound to know eventually, and it may turn out well (with no fight, or with the sorc leaving) but what if it causes the group to break apart? It would screw the plotline big time, if everyone had to make new characters. I am afraid of the 2nd problem, especially since I am pretty sure the dwarf won't take sides and it will be just an issue among the cleric and sorcerer. I am not expecting ooc fighting in any way, but remaking new characters for everyone... well... What would you do? Is the "Let PCs do what they want in the world" important enough to take the risk for creation of new characters? Should PCs shut up and go on the next adventure :P ? Or maybe I should try a more diplomatic (though it may sound bad) approach, like having the NPC in question fall victim to a disease and die, or fall victim to assasins (that have been stalking the players for some time), or just be SO GOOD to the players from now on, that the sorcerer won't be interested in killing her any more?
murte 02-06-05, 02:11 PM	It is a game, not a story. Your plotline is not the object of the game, having fun is. The plot might make it more interesting, but is in the end, inconsequential. Breaking the law is not evil. Revenge killing is not necessarily evil. However, if the LG cleric feels it was bad enough, I doubt his/her god will allow healing to work on this transgressor until amends can be made. If the Player is not having fun with the Character let them retire anywhere except in the middle of a dungeon. Your rule about new PC's come in 1 level under the lowest party member is a good one, maybe even too leniant.
discipleofevil 02-06-05, 03:22 PM	how about the bartender just happens to fear for his life so he hired bodyguards. bodyguards use subduel damage to knock out the pc without killing him. turn pc over to authorities. player must now decide whether or not to play this pc. if the answer is no and he brings in a new one, then make the new pc a cell mate of the old one and the old one told him what has been happening and vowes to help out the other pcs. problem solved as far as penalties, its not really killing the pc, but i still say make the new one 1 lvl lower then the lowest party member. this will discourage the replacement char theory.
charred 02-06-05, 03:31 PM	I can't say it better than murte did, so lets just say that I competely agree with him. Your plot is the background, not the goal. I think you should let the sorceror do it. You can't let another player's diapproval of another's actions dictate who can and can't do things in the game. The sorceror has as much right to their choice of action as anyone else. Would you try to prevent the cleric from donating to the poor if it would make the sorceror furious because the PC thinks it is a waste of money?
True Cavalier 02-06-05, 05:42 PM	Would you try to prevent the cleric from donating to the poor if it would make the sorceror furious because the PC thinks it is a waste of money? This HAS come up before, repeatedly :D The cleric did it, of course. I'l let him go on with it. And maybe stress the fact that said npc is a scum (well, she is... just doesn't deserve death) so that the cleric can reluctantly take it. Of course I am still going to be tough with the law. Make him be smart about it or he can get caught.
Andrew_980 02-06-05, 05:42 PM	this is why every version of D+D says PCs should not be evil
raido 02-06-05, 10:54 PM	My thought would be to let it happen. The good thing about something like that is that while it may mess up the story or plot a little, the event could provide a multitude of side-quests or plots down the track. e.g. Bartender killed now. Sometime later the brother/sister/father/son/daughter/relative is looking for the person who killed them, or has hired an arbiter to seek out the person and seek retribution. Or, better yet, bartender rises as a restless spirit and spends the rest of the campaign tailing the character and ridiculing every action, commenting on every deed, and spoiling anything the character tries to do that requires subtlety. That would be humourous (well, to me at least! hehe)... I would see these situations as exciting possibilities for you to expand your story in ways you didnt originally think of. Also, creating a fluid campaign that responds to the players will encourage immersion in your story, and everyone will enjoy it more!! yours, ~raido. Well, that's my 2 cents.
clarkvalentine 02-06-05, 11:16 PM	Never "disallow" the players to do things. However, keep some things in mind. - Actions should have consequences. Evil characters should be treated as such by NPCs. Very Evil characters should be known far and wide, and treated accordingly. - The GM's story might not be important, but many players consider it important that the game tell some story, rather than be a series of unconnected events. - Have Fun is the most important goal. I've found that a party that cannot work together is extremely un-fun to a lot of players. If this is the case for some of the players in your group, reminding the others of this might be a good idea.
True Cavalier 02-07-05, 02:17 PM	I am blessed with a good group, there won't be any real problem there. But it would be perfectly in character if the cleric abandoned them after this, or turned to the authorities, it would break the group, and the story can only continue as long as at least one party member remains alive. As for the consequences, I am using a very nice reputation system. The work has been done already. And the sorcerer did not start as evil - I would want to avoid having a good and an evil char together. The sorcerer started as Chaotic Good, then insisted in coup-de-gracing foes he had put to sleep, then he stole (from the npc he wants to kill) and now he is planning to commit murder. In NO way am I going to say "No". But I could "subtly" (sort of...) prevent it if I wanted, eg by keeping the PCs REALLY busy with everything else around them (eg the main plot that is thickening) or by simply getting rid of the npc myself (eg since her inn was ruined, she could just leave town). Another thing is that said player has not yet told me how he wants to go about doing it. He just mentioned it in what he wants to do in the near future. I think playing murderers in MMORPGs has done him some harm :D
kliate 02-07-05, 08:14 PM	Lets see how this might play out... If the Sorceror offs the bartender quietly, see scenario 1 Otherwise, see scenario 2 Scenario 1: The bartender's staff show up to prep the bar for another busy night, only to find that he hasn't shown up. Out of concern, one of the barmaids runs over to the bartender's home (never mind if it's the upstairs of the bar or down the street - she looks for him) and either finds no trace of him (see scenario 3) or his corpse (see scenario 4) Scenario 2: Realising his life is in danger, the bartender lets out a scream. If possible, he runs for his life into the most public area he can get to while continuing to make as much noise as he can. If the bartender reaches a friend or town guard, see scenario 5. If the bartender is killed before he can reach anyone, see scenario 6. Scenario 3: Growing worried about the missing bartender, the barmaid returns to the bar distraught. After considerable discussion, the bar is closed with an explanation that the bartender has gone mysteriously missing. This prompts local authorities and adventurers to investigate the situation and bring anyone responsible to justice. <end> Scenario 4: The barmaid screams at the sight of the corpse, and runs into the city street, panicked. After the concerned townsfolk try to calm her down, she relays the horrific story of her finding. If the corpse is positioned in a manner that the barmaid may be held responsible for, see scenario 7. Otherwise, see scenario 8 Scenario 5: The friend of the bartender interposes himself between the bartender and the attacking sorceror. The bartender is encouraged to go find more help to stop the murderous lunatic. <end> Scenario 6: One or more locals may have witnessed the murder despite being unable to interfere. Continue through scenario 1, except that certain witnesses may be able to come forth and help identify the murderer. Scenario 7: The barmaid will be held as a potential suspect, although she will try to get whatever friends and family she has to prove her innocence. If the witnesses from scenario 6 are involved, her innocence may be proven easily (unless the sorceror decided to disguise himself as a barmaid?). Otherwise, those who care about the barmaid will attempt everything within reason to discover what actually happened. <end> Scenario 8: The townsfolk and authorities grow worried about the death. Guards are increased everywhere, patrolling the streets at night. Outsiders of the town will be looked at suspiciously and may even be ostracized. If any evidence links the attack as being magical in nature, outside spellcasters will be treated with both fear and disrespect. Local clerics will attempt to commune with their deities (or otherwise divine what is going on) to bring the guilty party to justice. <end> Of course, there are several other ways of dealing with the situation if you do let it go through. Perhaps one enjoyable possibility would be to allow the murder to happen and have the party hired to see what they can find out. If the other players don't know about the sorceror's murder and nature, you'll have an opportunity for a particularly interesting adventure.
ShadowDragon8685 02-07-05, 08:24 PM	I enforce a "No NonGood character" policy. I also enforce a policy if "If your character ever falls from Goodness, they cease being a character and become an NPC unless you mean to Atone them, and fast."
FriendoftheDork 02-07-05, 10:17 PM	evil character is not a problem. Characters not accepting each others alignments is. Either enforce a group alignment or let the players choose one. Then every PC has to stick to that or leave the group. As long as the evil PC murders the bartender in quiet and the cleric doesen't find out, everything's fine. If he reveals it though, the cleric should try to talk him out of it. It amazes me how many DMs allow the PC to create characters with no regard to alignment then comes to this board to rant about it. The core rules should say something about this, as far as I know only the BoVD does this sufficiently. Atm i play in two evil campaigns and DM one myself and it's fine as long as the players can agree to accept one another. Even some metagaming on this can help alot. Bottom line is for everyone to have fun, and having your PC killed/betrayed by party member is not fun for both.
Warslayngawds 02-08-05, 03:20 AM	My 2cp, is that when putting together groups of PC's (usually with the same players) abide by one of the 2 rules All characters must be either Good and Neutral or Evil and Neutral, thus in an Evilly aligned game neurtal characters are welcome, but good ones are not. The oppostite would be true for Good aligned games, neutral characters are ok, but Evil ones are not. or, All alignments are kept purely between the characters player and the DM exclusivly, the other players don't need to know what it is. With your actual situtation, if the players are not going to turn on each other after their characters do, and every action is taken wholly within alignment and is IC, don't fight it, what comes of it will likely be as much fun as any plot you can come up with. Possibly you may even be able to incorporate their actions into the grand scheme you have planned, that would be best. As a side note, when I finally figured out that I couldn't pull my players around by the nose and insist they get involved in the plot of my campaigns, I found that we all had a lot more fun and they got involved in the story more. I just had to give them reasons they would in character. It helps when you know the beginning, and the end, just let them fill in the middle.
Tuneless Bard 02-08-05, 08:30 AM	I do not allow players to be Chaotic Evil....which is what the sorcerer seems to be...If I feel a player is ever having an alignment shift towards chaotic evil, I will give them one warning....if they do not heed the warning, then I alter thier alignment and take over the character....perhaps to become a villian later on... regardless...an evil person should not be in a group with a good person...and even more importantly, a person with such obvious chaotic tendancies should not be in a group with a lawful person... tell the player that he needs to get attonement cast on himself or roll up a new character.... and as a side note, any time i feel a player is intentionally trying to get rid of thier character, whether just plain saying it or doing stupid things to try to die or screw up the order of everything....I make them lose two levels...
True Cavalier 02-09-05, 07:56 AM	First of all, as I said, he did not start as evil. He has not even done anything evil - yet, he was just kind enough to inform me about his future plans. I really like the various scenarios above. A few nice ideas too :D Maybe I will talk to him and give him all options, then let him decide. The way I see it, he will perform the evil deed, and immediately after his character will become an NPC, and he can make a new one as he wants, without breaking the party. Then there's an adventure about hunting the old character down.
Cantankerous 02-09-05, 01:24 PM	First up, killing is in no way chaotic. It can be evil, but chaotic? Nope. If killing were chaotic, even in the most lawful of societies, then every devil (Baatorian) in existence would be chaotic evil, not lawful evil. Commiting an act that is counter to the specific laws of a specific culture is not even unlawful per se, if it is otherwise traditionally valid, such as murdering your rival in the Hells. It would be easy to imagine it being against the laws of some of the given places within the Hells (like in the Iron City of Dis for instance) but it is still within the ethic of the alignment... just don't get caught. Killing a person who has stolen from you is almost always evil though... as a matter of proportion, so I absolutely can NOT see a supposedly lawful good Cleric condoning such an action. Isshia
aaron3579 02-09-05, 02:50 PM	First up, killing is in no way chaotic. It can be evil, but chaotic? Nope. Isshia I agree that ending life is nether inherently lawful or chaotic, as it can be used either to promote or to attack order. However, killing can certainly be chaotic; the assassination of JFK is a prime example of an effort to spread chaos, as are many assassinations of public officials (District Attorneys are another good example).