Being helpless and Reflex saves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Being helpless and Reflex saves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bakkegaard
10-15-05, 01:36 PM Hi all.

I have a player who insists that even if his character is paralyzed or otherwise immobilized he is entitled to make a Reflex save against hostile effects (taking into account a -5 penalty to his save from having an effective Dex of 0 and so forth.)

I overruled his arguments and disallowed his character a Reflax saving thow when paralyzed or otherwise helpless.

I find my ruling very reasonable and logical, BUT...I could not find any reference in any of my books that supported it.

Is there an official D&D 3.5 ruling concerning this example? What is your own opinion on this?
75RD Drum Clip
10-15-05, 02:00 PM If you are helpless, such as paralyzed or unconscious, how in hades are you supposed to dodge and roll out of the way of a fireball? Your player is flat out wrong. You were right to rule you did. Logic has its place in the game.
Archangel_James
10-15-05, 02:03 PM I think that in addition to the -5 for DEX, he should also have to suffer a -15 circumstance. If he still makes the save after all, then his body twitched at a lucky moment or something.
FriendoftheDork
10-15-05, 02:11 PM unfortunatly RAW doesen't specifically state you cannot make a reflex save, only that you cannot use Evasion or Improved Evasion.

You might think common sense would prevail, but some DMs think that since the rules doesen't specify it you CAN make a save.

So I'm afraid you'd just have to tell your player that helpless people cannot make reflex saves as they are "unable to move", and movement is required to make reflex saves.
bakkegaard
10-15-05, 02:14 PM So I'm afraid you'd just have to tell your player that helpless people cannot make reflex saves as they are "unable to move", and movement is required to make reflex saves.

That's exactly what I did. Everyone accepted it after a while, but I was curious if there was an official ruling upon this.

Thanks for your replies all. Nice to be confirmed... :)
StormCrow42
10-15-05, 02:24 PM To answer the OP's question, here is the FAQ entry on reflex saves, note that their player was correct, helpless your DEX is 0 but you can still make the save.

Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving
throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook
says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge
out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves
if you can’t move?
A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is
subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save
usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save is not
completely dependent on a character’s ability to move around.
It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes
the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other
miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D
game from meeting an untimely fate.
In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter
how bad your circumstances are, but there are a few conditions
that interfere with Reflex saves:
• If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity
drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity
modifier for your Reflex saves.
• If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if
any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have
while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex
saves accordingly.
• If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended
objects can’t make saving throws.
• If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score
drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity
modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and
Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your
lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and
Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your
lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2
penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving
throws.
• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively
0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your
Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever
you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.
orionm42
10-15-05, 02:29 PM Stormcrow beat me to it. Your player was correct.
bakkegaard
10-15-05, 02:50 PM To answer the OP's question, here is the FAQ entry on reflex saves, note that their player was correct, helpless your DEX is 0 but you can still make the save.

I feared that it was so. I'll crawl back to my players and beg their forgivness.
FriendoftheDork
10-15-05, 03:02 PM I feared that it was so. I'll crawl back to my players and beg their forgivness.

...Or you could be a DM and house rule it as you see fit. Just because it's RAW doesen't mean it cannot be changed or houseruled. But it's your call.
bakkegaard
10-16-05, 09:53 AM ...Or you could be a DM and house rule it as you see fit. Just because it's RAW doesen't mean it cannot be changed or houseruled. But it's your call.

I prefer to follow the rules as they are written. The less houserules the better. But I'll confess, in this case I'm inclined to make a houserule.
Lord Schpungus
10-16-05, 10:53 AM The FAQ assumes that you as a DM aren't out to maliciously kill your players because you think it's fun and your duty, but rather that you're setting out to cooperatively tell a story of heroics and fantastic happenings with your players, and have fun together. It's what D&D does best.
Nom
10-17-05, 12:35 AM Even unattended magical objects get to make Ref saves (see PH chapter 9). Of course, like all immobile things their Dex is 0 and thus they are penalised by -5.

Basically, you need to understand what a Ref save models. Against area attacks (the most common), it models partly your ability to "cover up" and partly luck as the attack is generally not uniform. Such saves do not usually model gross movement such as diving behind cover, since characters are not required to move or otherwise act in order to attempt a save.

However, some Ref saves actually reflect activity, such as catching yourself when about to fall. In such a case, the DM might be justified in denying a Ref save if the character is incapable of performing the necessary activities. As for area attacks, the DM should be careful that he does not rule out "dumb luck", like snagging your armour on the lip.

Basically, you should only deny a Ref save if it would be impossible for the character to actually perform the actions required, and "luck" could not aid them.
FriendoftheDork
10-17-05, 02:37 AM I prefer to follow the rules as they are written. The less houserules the better. But I'll confess, in this case I'm inclined to make a houserule.

Don't worry about it, all DMs I have ever known has made some sort of house rule. In fact those that were reluctant to do it where the ones that made one on the fly because it's "too unbalanced" or some such. In this case the rule won't break your game and won't harm the PCs much more than everything else. I for sure would be ****** off if mr palarylzed evil rogue still got the save against my fireball taking almost no damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bakkegaard 10-15-05, 01:36 PM	Hi all. I have a player who insists that even if his character is paralyzed or otherwise immobilized he is entitled to make a Reflex save against hostile effects (taking into account a -5 penalty to his save from having an effective Dex of 0 and so forth.) I overruled his arguments and disallowed his character a Reflax saving thow when paralyzed or otherwise helpless. I find my ruling very reasonable and logical, BUT...I could not find any reference in any of my books that supported it. Is there an official D&D 3.5 ruling concerning this example? What is your own opinion on this?
75RD Drum Clip 10-15-05, 02:00 PM	If you are helpless, such as paralyzed or unconscious, how in hades are you supposed to dodge and roll out of the way of a fireball? Your player is flat out wrong. You were right to rule you did. Logic has its place in the game.
Archangel_James 10-15-05, 02:03 PM	I think that in addition to the -5 for DEX, he should also have to suffer a -15 circumstance. If he still makes the save after all, then his body twitched at a lucky moment or something.
FriendoftheDork 10-15-05, 02:11 PM	unfortunatly RAW doesen't specifically state you cannot make a reflex save, only that you cannot use Evasion or Improved Evasion. You might think common sense would prevail, but some DMs think that since the rules doesen't specify it you CAN make a save. So I'm afraid you'd just have to tell your player that helpless people cannot make reflex saves as they are "unable to move", and movement is required to make reflex saves.
bakkegaard 10-15-05, 02:14 PM	So I'm afraid you'd just have to tell your player that helpless people cannot make reflex saves as they are "unable to move", and movement is required to make reflex saves. That's exactly what I did. Everyone accepted it after a while, but I was curious if there was an official ruling upon this. Thanks for your replies all. Nice to be confirmed... :)
StormCrow42 10-15-05, 02:24 PM	To answer the OP's question, here is the FAQ entry on reflex saves, note that their player was correct, helpless your DEX is 0 but you can still make the save. Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move? A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save is not completely dependent on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate. In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but there are a few conditions that interfere with Reflex saves: • If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves. • If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly. • If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws. • If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. • If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. • If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. • If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws. • If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.
orionm42 10-15-05, 02:29 PM	Stormcrow beat me to it. Your player was correct.
bakkegaard 10-15-05, 02:50 PM	To answer the OP's question, here is the FAQ entry on reflex saves, note that their player was correct, helpless your DEX is 0 but you can still make the save. I feared that it was so. I'll crawl back to my players and beg their forgivness.
FriendoftheDork 10-15-05, 03:02 PM	I feared that it was so. I'll crawl back to my players and beg their forgivness. ...Or you could be a DM and house rule it as you see fit. Just because it's RAW doesen't mean it cannot be changed or houseruled. But it's your call.
bakkegaard 10-16-05, 09:53 AM	...Or you could be a DM and house rule it as you see fit. Just because it's RAW doesen't mean it cannot be changed or houseruled. But it's your call. I prefer to follow the rules as they are written. The less houserules the better. But I'll confess, in this case I'm inclined to make a houserule.
Lord Schpungus 10-16-05, 10:53 AM	The FAQ assumes that you as a DM aren't out to maliciously kill your players because you think it's fun and your duty, but rather that you're setting out to cooperatively tell a story of heroics and fantastic happenings with your players, and have fun together. It's what D&D does best.
Nom 10-17-05, 12:35 AM	Even unattended magical objects get to make Ref saves (see PH chapter 9). Of course, like all immobile things their Dex is 0 and thus they are penalised by -5. Basically, you need to understand what a Ref save models. Against area attacks (the most common), it models partly your ability to "cover up" and partly luck as the attack is generally not uniform. Such saves do not usually model gross movement such as diving behind cover, since characters are not required to move or otherwise act in order to attempt a save. However, some Ref saves actually reflect activity, such as catching yourself when about to fall. In such a case, the DM might be justified in denying a Ref save if the character is incapable of performing the necessary activities. As for area attacks, the DM should be careful that he does not rule out "dumb luck", like snagging your armour on the lip. Basically, you should only deny a Ref save if it would be impossible for the character to actually perform the actions required, and "luck" could not aid them.
FriendoftheDork 10-17-05, 02:37 AM	I prefer to follow the rules as they are written. The less houserules the better. But I'll confess, in this case I'm inclined to make a houserule. Don't worry about it, all DMs I have ever known has made some sort of house rule. In fact those that were reluctant to do it where the ones that made one on the fly because it's "too unbalanced" or some such. In this case the rule won't break your game and won't harm the PCs much more than everything else. I for sure would be ****** off if mr palarylzed evil rogue still got the save against my fireball taking almost no damage.