Being too hard on my PCs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Being too hard on my PCs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlackRequiem
04-10-08, 02:32 PM Let me set up the scenario I have planned for my next session. The party is 7-8th level consisting of an Archivist, Barbarian, Fighter and a Wizard. My spellcasters have been making things a little too easy and the melee class players feel somewhat useless even after I introduced skill-based challenges that would be right up their alley. But in addition to that the meleers are playing dumb while in combat and that just gets on my nerves when they complain. I want to use this next encounter to make the entire party play more tactically.

The PCs are about to enter a large hallway ( 20 foot across, 100 foot long ). When they all cross the threshold I'll spring out a surprise round on them; two Trolls with levels of Fighter 2\Rogue 2 commanding 8 Orcs with levels of Rogue 2. The trolls feats and weapons are as follows; EWP: Whip, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Wounding Large Whip-Dagger and EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Cold Large Spiked Chain. All of the Orcs have Masterwork Longspears and Power Attack as their Feat. All of their Hit Dice are maximized as I allow my PCs full Hit Dice as well.

You can probably see where this is going, right? On the surprise round trip the spellcasters then keep them down the whole fight while hiding behind the meatwall of Orcs. They'll be provoking AoOs from the trolls left and right. The Disarmer is there to smack away the Meleer's weapons. The Orcs provide a barrier and also make Power Attack AoOs on anyone getting up in their Reach range. If one of them DOES get off a blasty spell, which most of the ones they've taken give Reflex saves, they've got Evasion.

I know they're going to hate me for this but I want to actually challenge them for once. Zerg Rushing and spamming blaster spells only takes you so far. It's also an exercise in them taking more precaution when they go dungeon delving. No one diversifies their skills, their spell selections, etc. No one in my group with the exception of me on the rare times I play as a PC has ever used something like Unseen Servant or Gods forbid someone actually plays a Rogue and does their job! :rant: I've talked to them about this before but they're the kind of players who refuses to adapt until they get beaten over the head with it. They know I don't pull my punches at least.. and they'll definitely know it when I pull this out on them.
iserith
04-10-08, 02:42 PM Fight spellcasters with other spellcasters that use lesser globe of invulnerability while behind ranks of minions.

Try also barbarians with the occult slayer prestige class or perhaps a nice clay golem. These will make it seem less like you are trying to make a point while still making the point.
BlackRequiem
04-10-08, 02:54 PM That's true but I also wanted to make it an exercise of what melee classes with the right Feats can do. Maybe I'll throw those ideas at them first and then leave this encounter as the 'boss fight' for later on.
flamepheonix182
04-10-08, 02:56 PM Seems like it would be a fun battle, I would go for it but just be careful you don't TPK them.
drunkendrake
04-10-08, 03:04 PM Of course, the two magic weapons might also give them an incentive to try these tactics out rather than sell them off. :D
Dark Stryke
04-10-08, 03:06 PM Just be careful with an encounter like this. If the enemies can keep the party tripped/disarmed the whole fight, they are going to die, no two ways about it.

What specifically are the meleers doing wrong? At this level, spellcasters and melee should be roughly on par with each other.
Drackthor
04-10-08, 03:12 PM Another thing to remember, you might want them to play tactically, but they might not want to. If they say to you they're not enjoying D&D as a wargame, then don't try to force them to use tactical thinking. D&D is all about adapting to what makes it fun for the group.
Bruunwald
04-10-08, 03:16 PM Here's the thing, though...

Getting one person to change his ways is a lot easier than getting a whole group to change their ways.

What's happening here is that a hardcore player is trying to persuade a group of non-hardcore players to become hardcore players by ruthlessly beating them over the head with a situation which he, himself, has already stated they are either not capable of handling or willing to handle.

I predict total failure in every way (not to mention a very long, drawn-out combat with lots of rules-referencing). I've tried similar measures myself, with a party with only two really rules-savvy players and about three other casual players. Let me tell you, the casuals never come around to this stuff and the hardcores either end up stealing the show or having their hands full with rules questions. Usually both.

There are two alternatives to this, that as a (hopefully) now mature DM, I would make:

1. Start playing to their playing styles and strengths. Stop fighting how they want to roll and start rolling with them. This might not satisfy your hardcore impulses, but it will be by far more interesting to them and certainly easier than trying to turn them all into clones of yourself.

and/or

2. Find a group of hardcore tacticians to get your jones on with. In our local hobby shop I see all kinds of want ads for players. Some groups ask for hardcore players specifically. There's no shame in it.
BlackRequiem
04-10-08, 04:01 PM Here's the thing, though...

Getting one person to change his ways is a lot easier than getting a whole group to change their ways.

What's happening here is that a hardcore player is trying to persuade a group of non-hardcore players to become hardcore players by ruthlessly beating them over the head with a situation which he, himself, has already stated they are either not capable of handling or willing to handle.

I predict total failure in every way (not to mention a very long, drawn-out combat with lots of rules-referencing). I've tried similar measures myself, with a party with only two really rules-savvy players and about three other casual players. Let me tell you, the casuals never come around to this stuff and the hardcores either end up stealing the show or having their hands full with rules questions. Usually both.

There are two alternatives to this, that as a (hopefully) now mature DM, I would make:

1. Start playing to their playing styles and strengths. Stop fighting how they want to roll and start rolling with them. This might not satisfy your hardcore impulses, but it will be by far more interesting to them and certainly easier than trying to turn them all into clones of yourself.

and/or

2. Find a group of hardcore tacticians to get your jones on with. In our local hobby shop I see all kinds of want ads for players. Some groups ask for hardcore players specifically. There's no shame in it.

Part of it is that. I'd love for them to start playing beyond 'I cast Fireball\I charge and use Power Attack' but I'm tired of handing them encounters on a platter for that and they're groaning that their tactics aren't working even during normal 'easy mode' encounters but refuse to change. Most of them build around what's good for their character at the time rather then what's good for the party and that also gets to me. Maybe I'm being too mean on the combat side of it but I'm tired of them only thinking of themselves and expecting me to hand them gobs of XP and loot for no effort involved.

Though I've never really considered using stuff like Unseen Servant and other utility spells or a Rogue doing what a Rogue is suppose to do as 'hardcore' . That's suppose to be standard to the D&D dungeon crawl. There's being nice and then there's pandering to your PCs and If they don't want to check for traps or search ahead then I feel they deserve to be punished for walking right into it. When we rotate out DMs and campaigns no one complains with our other DMs when smack us upside the head for not being as cautious so I won't be held to some double standard.

Just be careful with an encounter like this. If the enemies can keep the party tripped/disarmed the whole fight, they are going to die, no two ways about it.

What specifically are the meleers doing wrong? At this level, spellcasters and melee should be roughly on par with each other.

Charging into melee combat even from an obvious threat such as a Grease spell, Reach weapon-wielding enemies, caltrops, etc. It's the epitome of Zerg Rushing. They barrel forward with their eyes closed and don't think twice about it until ether the entire party is ( nearly ) dead or they win. That's not just limited to the melee classes, either. Both spellcasters have, repeatedly, moved within clear charge range or melee range of enemies to cast spells then balk at me when I actually hit them or *gasp* grapple them! :eek: :rolleyes: :rant: :banghead:

Another thing to remember, you might want them to play tactically, but they might not want to. If they say to you they're not enjoying D&D as a wargame, then don't try to force them to use tactical thinking. D&D is all about adapting to what makes it fun for the group.

Part of the fun is overcoming challenges. If they walk all over everything without any effort then there's really no point to be playing. Imagine if social challenges were always a breeze? 'No, no, don't roll to convince the King that he should hand over his crown and treasury to you. You're ADVENTURERS! By Gods, you deserve everything the multiverse can provide without having to pick up a single die much less actually having to roleplay!' No DM in their right mind would do that so on that same merit why should I just hand them combat encounters? Victory is certainly possible with the encounter I have prepared and all it requires as a little precaution and I've even given them reasons in our last session to think that there'd be Orcs up ahead laying in wait. The doors to the hallway are wide open and it's suspiciously devoid of hostiles and if after that they still can't take a hint then it's their fault.
syrinth
04-10-08, 10:10 PM I'm choosing now to remind the readers of this thread that the trip build does not allow you to make a trip attempt as an attack of opportunity while someone is standing. Attack of Opportunity yes, trip attack no.

If this was already addressed my apologies.
wraithstrike
04-10-08, 11:52 PM Let me set up the scenario I have planned for my next session. The party is 7-8th level consisting of an Archivist, Barbarian, Fighter and a Wizard. My spellcasters have been making things a little too easy and the melee class players feel somewhat useless even after I introduced skill-based challenges that would be right up their alley. But in addition to that the meleers are playing dumb while in combat and that just gets on my nerves when they complain. I want to use this next encounter to make the entire party play more tactically.

The PCs are about to enter a large hallway ( 20 foot across, 100 foot long ). When they all cross the threshold I'll spring out a surprise round on them; two Trolls with levels of Fighter 2\Rogue 2 commanding 8 Orcs with levels of Rogue 2. The trolls feats and weapons are as follows; EWP: Whip, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Wounding Large Whip-Dagger and EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Cold Large Spiked Chain. All of the Orcs have Masterwork Longspears and Power Attack as their Feat. All of their Hit Dice are maximized as I allow my PCs full Hit Dice as well.

You can probably see where this is going, right? On the surprise round trip the spellcasters then keep them down the whole fight while hiding behind the meatwall of Orcs. They'll be provoking AoOs from the trolls left and right. The Disarmer is there to smack away the Meleer's weapons. The Orcs provide a barrier and also make Power Attack AoOs on anyone getting up in their Reach range. If one of them DOES get off a blasty spell, which most of the ones they've taken give Reflex saves, they've got Evasion.

I know they're going to hate me for this but I want to actually challenge them for once. Zerg Rushing and spamming blaster spells only takes you so far. It's also an exercise in them taking more precaution when they go dungeon delving. No one diversifies their skills, their spell selections, etc. No one in my group with the exception of me on the rare times I play as a PC has ever used something like Unseen Servant or Gods forbid someone actually plays a Rogue and does their job! :rant: I've talked to them about this before but they're the kind of players who refuses to adapt until they get beaten over the head with it. They know I don't pull my punches at least.. and they'll definitely know it when I pull this out on them.
Those ORCs probably wont be a factor unless your group is not optomized, and three casters against 2 trolls. I won't bet on the trolls. They would have to have a poor spell selection to lose that fight, and how do you know the trolls will win initiative, unless you use DM Fiat to give it to them. The party will probably team up on the trolls, and then it is game over, but once again this assumes they have decent spells prepared, and if you want them to fight smarter just discuss it OOC.
runestar
04-11-08, 12:01 AM I don't see how tripping the casters necessarily nullifies them. They can still cast spells while prone, and casting defensively makes up for not being to move out of threat range. The only drawback is that the attacker get +4 to-hit vs them, which in turn translates to more damage via power attack. Unless your casters are relying on touch spells, they will have no problem spamming ranged area affect damage/battlefield control spells.

Are you somehow confusing trip with grapple?

One problem I can see is that your foes all have very poor will saves. Your troll has a base will save of just +2, and your orcs +0, abysmally low for a EL11+ encounter. A single glitterdust (easily dc17 at least by this time) will pretty much take them all out (or at least most of your mooks and 1 of your 2 trolls on average, though note that trolls can counter this somewhat with scent). With total concealment, it should be easy for your fighters to close in and chop them all to bits. And now for the real kicker...

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Alternatively, a well-timed deep slumber or suggestion can take down one of them, while you focus on the other.

Evasion is slightly annoying, I give you that. Your orc rogues have a base reflex save of +3, or +6 if I assume you gave them 16dex. At this time, the wizard's int should be ~ 19 to 20, for a fireball dc of 17 or 18, so on average, a well-placed fireball should be able to take out roughly 1/2 the mooks.

Alternatively, they could resort to spells which do not use reflex saves, such as ice storm, shout or black tentacles (should deal enough damage to take out the orcs, 5d6 averages 16.5 damage, while rogue2 with 14con has 16hp). If extra firepower is needed, the archivist can support with sound burst (stun for 1 round on a failed fort save).

I have no idea how your trolls are qualifying for expertise (they get -4int, expertise requires 13int, meaning you placed a raw 17 in int?).

Might be effective against a party with a 1-track mind who keeps recycling the same old tactics over and over again, but looks like it can be readily countered with just a little creativity. Does your wizard memorize nothing but reflex-save damage spells? If so, then I suppose he does deserve to get whacked.
The_Black_Hand
04-11-08, 12:24 AM Just be careful with an encounter like this. If the enemies can keep the party tripped/disarmed the whole fight, they are going to die, no two ways about it.

If your party dies because they are tripped/ disarmed or both then they didn't plan for these scenarios and deserve to die.

I have spent a couple of combats with a melee type with no armor, no weapon and prone on the ground and still managed to kill the guy attacking me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlackRequiem 04-10-08, 02:32 PM	Let me set up the scenario I have planned for my next session. The party is 7-8th level consisting of an Archivist, Barbarian, Fighter and a Wizard. My spellcasters have been making things a little too easy and the melee class players feel somewhat useless even after I introduced skill-based challenges that would be right up their alley. But in addition to that the meleers are playing dumb while in combat and that just gets on my nerves when they complain. I want to use this next encounter to make the entire party play more tactically. The PCs are about to enter a large hallway ( 20 foot across, 100 foot long ). When they all cross the threshold I'll spring out a surprise round on them; two Trolls with levels of Fighter 2\Rogue 2 commanding 8 Orcs with levels of Rogue 2. The trolls feats and weapons are as follows; EWP: Whip, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Wounding Large Whip-Dagger and EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Cold Large Spiked Chain. All of the Orcs have Masterwork Longspears and Power Attack as their Feat. All of their Hit Dice are maximized as I allow my PCs full Hit Dice as well. You can probably see where this is going, right? On the surprise round trip the spellcasters then keep them down the whole fight while hiding behind the meatwall of Orcs. They'll be provoking AoOs from the trolls left and right. The Disarmer is there to smack away the Meleer's weapons. The Orcs provide a barrier and also make Power Attack AoOs on anyone getting up in their Reach range. If one of them DOES get off a blasty spell, which most of the ones they've taken give Reflex saves, they've got Evasion. I know they're going to hate me for this but I want to actually challenge them for once. Zerg Rushing and spamming blaster spells only takes you so far. It's also an exercise in them taking more precaution when they go dungeon delving. No one diversifies their skills, their spell selections, etc. No one in my group with the exception of me on the rare times I play as a PC has ever used something like Unseen Servant or Gods forbid someone actually plays a Rogue and does their job! :rant: I've talked to them about this before but they're the kind of players who refuses to adapt until they get beaten over the head with it. They know I don't pull my punches at least.. and they'll definitely know it when I pull this out on them.
iserith 04-10-08, 02:42 PM	Fight spellcasters with other spellcasters that use lesser globe of invulnerability while behind ranks of minions. Try also barbarians with the occult slayer prestige class or perhaps a nice clay golem. These will make it seem less like you are trying to make a point while still making the point.
BlackRequiem 04-10-08, 02:54 PM	That's true but I also wanted to make it an exercise of what melee classes with the right Feats can do. Maybe I'll throw those ideas at them first and then leave this encounter as the 'boss fight' for later on.
flamepheonix182 04-10-08, 02:56 PM	Seems like it would be a fun battle, I would go for it but just be careful you don't TPK them.
drunkendrake 04-10-08, 03:04 PM	Of course, the two magic weapons might also give them an incentive to try these tactics out rather than sell them off. :D
Dark Stryke 04-10-08, 03:06 PM	Just be careful with an encounter like this. If the enemies can keep the party tripped/disarmed the whole fight, they are going to die, no two ways about it. What specifically are the meleers doing wrong? At this level, spellcasters and melee should be roughly on par with each other.
Drackthor 04-10-08, 03:12 PM	Another thing to remember, you might want them to play tactically, but they might not want to. If they say to you they're not enjoying D&D as a wargame, then don't try to force them to use tactical thinking. D&D is all about adapting to what makes it fun for the group.
Bruunwald 04-10-08, 03:16 PM	Here's the thing, though... Getting one person to change his ways is a lot easier than getting a whole group to change their ways. What's happening here is that a hardcore player is trying to persuade a group of non-hardcore players to become hardcore players by ruthlessly beating them over the head with a situation which he, himself, has already stated they are either not capable of handling or willing to handle. I predict total failure in every way (not to mention a very long, drawn-out combat with lots of rules-referencing). I've tried similar measures myself, with a party with only two really rules-savvy players and about three other casual players. Let me tell you, the casuals never come around to this stuff and the hardcores either end up stealing the show or having their hands full with rules questions. Usually both. There are two alternatives to this, that as a (hopefully) now mature DM, I would make: 1. Start playing to their playing styles and strengths. Stop fighting how they want to roll and start rolling with them. This might not satisfy your hardcore impulses, but it will be by far more interesting to them and certainly easier than trying to turn them all into clones of yourself. and/or 2. Find a group of hardcore tacticians to get your jones on with. In our local hobby shop I see all kinds of want ads for players. Some groups ask for hardcore players specifically. There's no shame in it.
BlackRequiem 04-10-08, 04:01 PM	Here's the thing, though... Getting one person to change his ways is a lot easier than getting a whole group to change their ways. What's happening here is that a hardcore player is trying to persuade a group of non-hardcore players to become hardcore players by ruthlessly beating them over the head with a situation which he, himself, has already stated they are either not capable of handling or willing to handle. I predict total failure in every way (not to mention a very long, drawn-out combat with lots of rules-referencing). I've tried similar measures myself, with a party with only two really rules-savvy players and about three other casual players. Let me tell you, the casuals never come around to this stuff and the hardcores either end up stealing the show or having their hands full with rules questions. Usually both. There are two alternatives to this, that as a (hopefully) now mature DM, I would make: 1. Start playing to their playing styles and strengths. Stop fighting how they want to roll and start rolling with them. This might not satisfy your hardcore impulses, but it will be by far more interesting to them and certainly easier than trying to turn them all into clones of yourself. and/or 2. Find a group of hardcore tacticians to get your jones on with. In our local hobby shop I see all kinds of want ads for players. Some groups ask for hardcore players specifically. There's no shame in it. Part of it is that. I'd love for them to start playing beyond 'I cast Fireball\I charge and use Power Attack' but I'm tired of handing them encounters on a platter for that and they're groaning that their tactics aren't working even during normal 'easy mode' encounters but refuse to change. Most of them build around what's good for their character at the time rather then what's good for the party and that also gets to me. Maybe I'm being too mean on the combat side of it but I'm tired of them only thinking of themselves and expecting me to hand them gobs of XP and loot for no effort involved. Though I've never really considered using stuff like Unseen Servant and other utility spells or a Rogue doing what a Rogue is suppose to do as 'hardcore' . That's suppose to be standard to the D&D dungeon crawl. There's being nice and then there's pandering to your PCs and If they don't want to check for traps or search ahead then I feel they deserve to be punished for walking right into it. When we rotate out DMs and campaigns no one complains with our other DMs when smack us upside the head for not being as cautious so I won't be held to some double standard. Just be careful with an encounter like this. If the enemies can keep the party tripped/disarmed the whole fight, they are going to die, no two ways about it. What specifically are the meleers doing wrong? At this level, spellcasters and melee should be roughly on par with each other. Charging into melee combat even from an obvious threat such as a Grease spell, Reach weapon-wielding enemies, caltrops, etc. It's the epitome of Zerg Rushing. They barrel forward with their eyes closed and don't think twice about it until ether the entire party is ( nearly ) dead or they win. That's not just limited to the melee classes, either. Both spellcasters have, repeatedly, moved within clear charge range or melee range of enemies to cast spells then balk at me when I actually hit them or gasp grapple them! :eek: :rolleyes: :rant: :banghead: Another thing to remember, you might want them to play tactically, but they might not want to. If they say to you they're not enjoying D&D as a wargame, then don't try to force them to use tactical thinking. D&D is all about adapting to what makes it fun for the group. Part of the fun is overcoming challenges. If they walk all over everything without any effort then there's really no point to be playing. Imagine if social challenges were always a breeze? 'No, no, don't roll to convince the King that he should hand over his crown and treasury to you. You're ADVENTURERS! By Gods, you deserve everything the multiverse can provide without having to pick up a single die much less actually having to roleplay!' No DM in their right mind would do that so on that same merit why should I just hand them combat encounters? Victory is certainly possible with the encounter I have prepared and all it requires as a little precaution and I've even given them reasons in our last session to think that there'd be Orcs up ahead laying in wait. The doors to the hallway are wide open and it's suspiciously devoid of hostiles and if after that they still can't take a hint then it's their fault.
syrinth 04-10-08, 10:10 PM	I'm choosing now to remind the readers of this thread that the trip build does not allow you to make a trip attempt as an attack of opportunity while someone is standing. Attack of Opportunity yes, trip attack no. If this was already addressed my apologies.
wraithstrike 04-10-08, 11:52 PM	Let me set up the scenario I have planned for my next session. The party is 7-8th level consisting of an Archivist, Barbarian, Fighter and a Wizard. My spellcasters have been making things a little too easy and the melee class players feel somewhat useless even after I introduced skill-based challenges that would be right up their alley. But in addition to that the meleers are playing dumb while in combat and that just gets on my nerves when they complain. I want to use this next encounter to make the entire party play more tactically. The PCs are about to enter a large hallway ( 20 foot across, 100 foot long ). When they all cross the threshold I'll spring out a surprise round on them; two Trolls with levels of Fighter 2\Rogue 2 commanding 8 Orcs with levels of Rogue 2. The trolls feats and weapons are as follows; EWP: Whip, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Wounding Large Whip-Dagger and EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes with a +1 Cold Large Spiked Chain. All of the Orcs have Masterwork Longspears and Power Attack as their Feat. All of their Hit Dice are maximized as I allow my PCs full Hit Dice as well. You can probably see where this is going, right? On the surprise round trip the spellcasters then keep them down the whole fight while hiding behind the meatwall of Orcs. They'll be provoking AoOs from the trolls left and right. The Disarmer is there to smack away the Meleer's weapons. The Orcs provide a barrier and also make Power Attack AoOs on anyone getting up in their Reach range. If one of them DOES get off a blasty spell, which most of the ones they've taken give Reflex saves, they've got Evasion. I know they're going to hate me for this but I want to actually challenge them for once. Zerg Rushing and spamming blaster spells only takes you so far. It's also an exercise in them taking more precaution when they go dungeon delving. No one diversifies their skills, their spell selections, etc. No one in my group with the exception of me on the rare times I play as a PC has ever used something like Unseen Servant or Gods forbid someone actually plays a Rogue and does their job! :rant: I've talked to them about this before but they're the kind of players who refuses to adapt until they get beaten over the head with it. They know I don't pull my punches at least.. and they'll definitely know it when I pull this out on them. Those ORCs probably wont be a factor unless your group is not optomized, and three casters against 2 trolls. I won't bet on the trolls. They would have to have a poor spell selection to lose that fight, and how do you know the trolls will win initiative, unless you use DM Fiat to give it to them. The party will probably team up on the trolls, and then it is game over, but once again this assumes they have decent spells prepared, and if you want them to fight smarter just discuss it OOC.
runestar 04-11-08, 12:01 AM	I don't see how tripping the casters necessarily nullifies them. They can still cast spells while prone, and casting defensively makes up for not being to move out of threat range. The only drawback is that the attacker get +4 to-hit vs them, which in turn translates to more damage via power attack. Unless your casters are relying on touch spells, they will have no problem spamming ranged area affect damage/battlefield control spells. Are you somehow confusing trip with grapple? One problem I can see is that your foes all have very poor will saves. Your troll has a base will save of just +2, and your orcs +0, abysmally low for a EL11+ encounter. A single glitterdust (easily dc17 at least by this time) will pretty much take them all out (or at least most of your mooks and 1 of your 2 trolls on average, though note that trolls can counter this somewhat with scent). With total concealment, it should be easy for your fighters to close in and chop them all to bits. And now for the real kicker... You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies. Alternatively, a well-timed deep slumber or suggestion can take down one of them, while you focus on the other. Evasion is slightly annoying, I give you that. Your orc rogues have a base reflex save of +3, or +6 if I assume you gave them 16dex. At this time, the wizard's int should be ~ 19 to 20, for a fireball dc of 17 or 18, so on average, a well-placed fireball should be able to take out roughly 1/2 the mooks. Alternatively, they could resort to spells which do not use reflex saves, such as ice storm, shout or black tentacles (should deal enough damage to take out the orcs, 5d6 averages 16.5 damage, while rogue2 with 14con has 16hp). If extra firepower is needed, the archivist can support with sound burst (stun for 1 round on a failed fort save). I have no idea how your trolls are qualifying for expertise (they get -4int, expertise requires 13int, meaning you placed a raw 17 in int?). Might be effective against a party with a 1-track mind who keeps recycling the same old tactics over and over again, but looks like it can be readily countered with just a little creativity. Does your wizard memorize nothing but reflex-save damage spells? If so, then I suppose he does deserve to get whacked.
The_Black_Hand 04-11-08, 12:24 AM	Just be careful with an encounter like this. If the enemies can keep the party tripped/disarmed the whole fight, they are going to die, no two ways about it. If your party dies because they are tripped/ disarmed or both then they didn't plan for these scenarios and deserve to die. I have spent a couple of combats with a melee type with no armor, no weapon and prone on the ground and still managed to kill the guy attacking me.