Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rood_Inverse 01-28-06, 02:25 PM	I have one player who tends to unbalance things when it comes to die-rolling. I've given him my dice, dice just bought off the shelf, his dice... and he's amazing. You can't get less than a pair of 18s out of him at character generation. So... I need a "slightly better than average" point buy to try to take to my players. What does everyone recommend?
nastynate 01-28-06, 02:35 PM	32 point buy works well for my campaigns, and I run with high powered uber-optimizing gurus. You'll be able to buy the almost standard 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 playset, that seems very popular these days. It may not seem like much, in comparison to players accustomed to a pair of 18s, but it really is much better this way. My players have no issues building extremely powerful characters within the 32 point buy system.
Rood_Inverse 01-28-06, 02:41 PM	What stat do you start at using 32 point buy? I'm horrible at math and can't follow it backwards to count 32 properly. I always come up just one or two points shy... =\
kaeso 01-28-06, 02:52 PM	I suggest 28, it's the standard point buy that makes your character better than average, but not ridiculously powerful.
nastynate 01-28-06, 02:57 PM	What stat do you start at using 32 point buy? I'm horrible at math and can't follow it backwards to count 32 properly. I always come up just one or two points shy... =\ DMG pg. 169. All stats start at 8, and the higher you want to raise it the more points it will cost.
JohnJohn 01-28-06, 03:30 PM	Maybe I am a die hard dice roller but I haven't been able to get into the point buys or builds. For my campaigns I have players roll 4d6 6 times dropping one die (sometimes people like playing with low stats so it doesn't have to be the highest). Reroll one of the d6's sometime during the process which gives a chance to improve some. I havem't had any trouble with absurdly high stats or or low ones. If a player gets great stats well PC's are supposed to be a cut above the rest. If they have low stats they have something to roleplay off of. Sometimes a player gets a string of lucky rolls.. but hey its my job as DM to kill em off eventually anyways :D .
kraegor 01-28-06, 03:40 PM	An alternative to dice rolling? An alternative to point buy? Just give your players this: 18 16 14 14 12 10 And have them put the stats anywhere they want. Simple, easy, gives them a excellent stat, a good stat, and 3 fair stats and a poor one.
trapspringer 01-28-06, 03:43 PM	I like 28 pt. buy. It's fun to type, functional for all archetypes, and leads to a more-or-less balanced group of players from my experience.
BW0222 01-28-06, 04:10 PM	Rood_Inverse, Most campaigns use a 28 or 32 point buy. 28 is standard -- it makes PCs well above average without being superheros. Most typical NPC commoners would have a 22 point buy and above average folks a 25 point buy. 32 is more common in high-adventure campaigns where the campaign is just tough of you want to ensure that PCs have a better hope of surviving to higher levels. The following link includes the point-buys for various 32 and 28 point buys used in the Living Arcanis campaign. i.e. it shows all possible purchases for 32 and 28 point buys. http://www.onaraonline.org/downloads/32pt%20Stat%20Chart.pdf
Nom 01-28-06, 06:27 PM	28 is standard -- it makes PCs well above average without being superheros. Most typical NPC commoners would have a 22 point buy and above average folks a 25 point buy.Actually, 25 points is standard, which is why it's called "standard point buy" (DMG pg 169). Other point totals are "nonstandrd point buy". I've used 30 in NWN, used 28 for my first campaign, and now use 25. I find 25 is a good cusp, where you have enough points to be good at a few things but not enough points to be good at many things. Admittedly, the PCs are weaker than at 28 or 30 points, but I get around that by just using the CRs as written. If you are wanting an "above average", then 28 is probably a good number. It's roughly the same worth in total points as an "average" roll, but you get a lot more control and expect a higher total bonus. 32-33 is roughly equivalent to +1 LA, at which point you'll start seeing a noticeable effect on your encounter balancing.
WCH 01-28-06, 06:47 PM	25 means that you're required to minmax; you basically need to put 8s in your dump stats, because otherwise you won't be able to use any of your class features. So, for the typical barbarian: 17 Str (13), 14 Dex (6), 14 Con (6), 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha (13+6+6=25) 32 means that you can have the same class important stats, but also a little left over to round out your dump stats. For the same barbarian: 17 Str (13), 14 Dex (6), 14 Con (6), 8 Int, 12 Wis (4), 11 Cha (3) (13+6+6+4+3=32) The result here is that the barbarian can still be strong and not defensively crippled (as he would be if he had under 14 Dex or Con), but can also get his Will save out of the gutter, and make himself at least averagely charismatic. Low-cha barbarians are really bad to play... who wants to be the big tough guy who stutters and has self-esteem issues? Lower than 32 point buy, however, that's an absolute must, as points in Cha give virtually no mechanical benefit, and you need to worry about mechanics before you can bother with RP elements. 36 point buy gives you enough points to keep your stats out of the gutter and be powerful at several things. 17 Str (13), 14 Dex (6), 16 Con (10), 8 Int, 12 Wis (4), 11 Cha (3) Might not seem like much difference, but that boost to 16 Con lets him rage for longer and improves his already huge hitpoints. For the same cost, the 16 could be put in Dex, which would also be quite beneficial. Conclusion: 36 point buy tends to be too strong, but 25 point buy is too weak. 32 allows for well rounded characters who don't absolutely suck, and therefore it is the way to go.
Good Agnostic 01-28-06, 07:00 PM	It's a happy place.
WCH 01-28-06, 07:15 PM	Also worth noting is that 4d6 drop lowest (the actual standard) tends to give characters significantly better than 25 point buy. In general, getting 25 PB equivalent on 4d6 drop lowest is a bad roll... meaning making your characters using that point buy is requiring yourself to have a ****** roll.
JulesCARV 01-28-06, 07:27 PM	My DM uses a 30 point buy for our Eberron campaign. Heck -- you don't have to choose between 28 and 32 points. 30 points is allowed ;) BTW, I think that "average joe" NPCs (commoners, warriors, etc) typically have a 15 point build, 22 point build. I think 10.5 is supposed to be the average ability for everything for a human (after all, neither 10 nor 11 provides a modifier).
OctoberRaven 01-28-06, 07:30 PM	No point buy can ever perfectly duplicate 4d6 drop lowest; in fact 4d6 drop lowest will more often than not give you better stats on average than point-buy.
Skojar 01-28-06, 07:40 PM	25 makes things SOOO much easier to run. All the balancing work done by WotC assumes, it, so giving the players higher abilities or too much money means that the CRs are off, and it takes a lot more guesswork to plan encounters. Also, you can then very easily give your NPCs the elite array. I guest DM in a game in which the players started with 33 and got way too much money. Now I have to put the 12th level characters up against CR 15s ad 16s or they just plow through them, but then the creatures with special attacks have DCs that are a little higher than they should be. It is so much harder to balance the farther you get from 25 point buy.
cdrop 01-28-06, 08:29 PM	Point buy is one method that many people use to determin their stats. It does balance out that issue for many of us who roll the average 10 or below. But what my players and I have found is that a level 0 campaign can make this process a lot more interesting. I don't know of any "offical" rules on this, and quite frankly don't care. But in a level 0 campaign the character's actions determine their stats. In this campaign the players are level 0; they have no class, and all stats start at 10. They begin with 4 hp, but health shouldn't be an issue, because if they die before they even get a class, it is boring. Alignment also starts off neutral, their actions should determine where they tilt. Of course they probably will have an idea what they want their stats to be anyways, because they probably know which class they want; but thats not really different from point buy or just roll'n em up. Because of this, many players will do actions a specific way (warrior bashes things, rogue steals and lies), but that should be expected. Now here is the real key, they may do those actions thinking only benifit, but they might not think what they are really doing. A person starts a bar fight, for no reason other than fighting; his strength may go up, but charisma, maybe even intellegence goes down. If a person smooths talks a man out of his money, his charisma goes up, but his alignment starts to shift torwards evil. See how this works? Depending on what the players do, their stats and classes will be determined. Now it is not just a cake walk, some rolling still happens, depending if the situation calls for it have the player roll a 20 on his action. Like trying to break a barstool over a person should have a strength check. Someone jumping from roof to roof, should have a dex roll. Depending on these rolls, the stats should be changed accordingly. A failed dex check, results in lower dex, however if what they were trying to do was a good idea, maybe int or wisdom should be granted. So if someone was running away from an armed man and tried to get away on the roofs, but fails his jumps, gets lower dex, but an increase to wisdom. Someone who decides just to jump around the roofs for fun, should just lose dex. This idea can be difficult for many DM's, it requires on the fly gaming as well as good planning. The planning comes into play, when you set up the situation in which there are many options for the players and their actions. The on the fly comes into play when the players come up with solutions to the problems you present. So it can take some practice before this style of campaign may be viable to some DM's. One DM ran me through with this idea and I will give you a quick example of how it played out. My friend and I were on the side of a road and had just set up camp. After a meal we were approached by a man in his 20's asking if he could have a bite to eat and share our fire. I was more than happy to let him join us, when my friend was more cautious, asking questions of the man. After about an hour of conversation, the man got up and thanked us for the company and went on his way. With the fire growing dim, we went to sleep. In the middle of the night, my friend awoke, hearing voices in the bushes. He reached over to wake me, but found that I was already awake. We listened to the voices quietly. "I don't think we should be doing this." "Don't be so afraid, we will just grab their things while they are sleeping, then get out." "What if they wake up?" "We can probably take em, I didn't see any weapons while I was there." "Alright, just in and out" Now they started to enter the camp, but before they could break the trees, my friend had snuck from his bedding and was circling behind them. Before they could notice him, I stood up and called to the two men, asking what they think they were doing. Without a reply they attacked, one hanging back in the trees. My friend threw his hunting knife hitting the guy still by the tree square in the eye, killing him instantly. The other spun around seeing his friend fall, then turned to attack me. Unknown to them, we were not unarmed, but had hidden our weapons on ourselves carefully. The one that now attacked was the man that had joined us earlier in the evening, but seeing his friend fall attacked as a man with nothing to lose. As he came at me, I drew a longsword to defend myself, while my friend came from the back. It was a hard fought battle, in the end, the man died when a cut to the thy to restrain him went terribly wrong, the blade hit an artery and he died quickly. Upon my request we buried the man, and went on to the town in which we were traveling... There is an example of gaining stats and a class. Rolls of course happened with all these actions, but I just told you the general story of what happened. Because I welcomed the man to my camp, tried to talk to him when he attacked, and even gave him a proper burial, I became a paladin. Because my friend used sneaking to try and defeat the thieves, he became a Bounty Hunter (the rogue anti-assassin/thief). You might be asking, well how can you just become a paladin or any other class just like that? This is what determined what went on the character sheet, backstory was then brought into play by the DM, saying that we were on the road, be cause I was going to finish my training with a priest at a nearby church. My friend had stumbled into that life, but we had grown up together, and on and on. As you can see, it takes some creative thinking on the DM's part to have it flow, but it can be done. Also this was just one of many ways that you could do this, you could do an acadamy type setting, then when they "grow up" they have their classes and stats; or you could even just have a town's plight be the issue at hand. Its up to the DM to come up with the setting in which to play out the level 0, but it is the players to run the senerio through. Well I hope this might bring a new look to character creation to any reader, and want everyone to remember that it's the DM's world, be creative with it as much as you can.
BW0222 01-28-06, 09:11 PM	Nom, "Standard" meaning that it's the more common purchase in campaigns. I qualified it with saying you get a well above average PC. Living Grey uses 28 for example. I don't know too many which use a 25 point. For those who thing 25 point is workable... many classes such as monks, rangers, and paladins are almost killed at 25 point. Try playing either of these with a 14, 13, 12, 12, 12, and 10. You end up with characters who can't honestly employ their class abilities -- as a ranger you'd almost never have spells, paladins who could either never wear armor or their lay-on-hands, divine grace, and/or spells wouldn't be there. As such, if you use a 25 point buy you'll find that players rarely play non-optimal classes -- cleric, druid, fighter, rogue, or wizard.
ecienavxela 01-28-06, 09:28 PM	Hi. Where can I read about point-buy and the numbers you guys are suggesting (actual stat figures for players to distribute as they please rather than having to roll or point buy)? Thanks!
bholdr_mage 01-28-06, 09:42 PM	The problem with "point buy" systems is that no one has chance. Sure it's all balanced, but there's not as much excitement as when one rolls the dice. You don't get much diversity because everything is EVEN across the board. The problem with dice rolling is that, like been mentioned in many threads, it's unpredictable. So while one character gets 3 18's, another gets mostly 10's. Combine them. I use the 32 point buy system because they are heroes. lower this for a lower powered campaign. Then I give the option of what I call "gambling." Gambling is an option. The player can CHOOSE to gamble; but if they do...they have to gamble on ALL ability scores, not just one. It is in their favor to gamble...but there is always a chance for a lower powered character than when began with. To Gamble, a player grabs 1d8 and rolls it for each ability score. Depending on what number the d8 comes up on for each ability score, depends on if it goes up or down. Below is a list of what happens to the ability score... rolls a 1: The ability score goes down by one. Whichever ability score you are currently gambling for, you must continue with the one directly below it. If it is charisma you are on and you roll a 1, you are done gambling and must take the character regardless of what you rolled. Worst case scenario is a -1 on all ability scores if the player rolled six consecutive d8's and rolled 1's on all six. Highly unlikely. rolls a 2-6: Nothing happens. Whichever ability score you are currently gambling for, you must continue with the one directly below it. If it is Charisma, and you roll a 2-6, you are done gambling and must take the character regardless of what you rolled. rolls a 7-8: Ability score goes up by one. This one is different. If the player rolls a 7 or 8, they CAN CONTINUE ROLLING for that stat to a maximum of their racial ability adjustments (20 dex for an elf, 20 con for a dwarf, and so on.) If they get a 7 or 8 and roll again to get a 7 or 8 it goes up an additional point and they can roll again for that stat. If they roll a 2-6 they have to move on, keeping the adjustment from the 7 or 8 before. If they roll a 1 after a 7 or 8, it goes up one from the 7 or 8, then back down one from the 1. Hope some others can find use for this. I certainly like the method.
olshanski_home 01-28-06, 09:48 PM	I don't know too many which use a 25 point.I use a 25 point buy when DMing. It makes things so much easier, since at that level all of the CRs line up. People who min-max are going to min-max whether you give them 25 or 35 points. Here is an interesting article I wrote about various builds and the effect on game mechanics. the effect of Character Generation methods on tactical combat (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=477756)
fawr 01-29-06, 05:09 AM	I did the analysis of what the standard 4d6 drop 1 with rerolls for low characters and I found that it gave out almost 28pts (27 point something). But that was counting a 3 like it was a big negitive and a single 3 isn't really that bad (depending on where you put it). So if my players don't want to roll I give them 28pts. If you have a high death and non-resurection of "poor" characters then you may have to increase this. Similarly if you want something "slightly" better than rolling the dice. Just give your players this: 18 16 14 14 12 10 The problem with this is that it hurts players who want two or three high stats. A fighter may be better with two 18s and the rest just dump stats while a monk is likely to want a more even stat distribution. It just means that you hurt this type of player and make people more likely to use you standard rogue/wizard/... and less likely to use druids/paladins/clerics. When I show people a point buy I give them a suggested one but they can modify it if they want.
Otto the Bugbear 01-29-06, 09:40 AM	I either use point buy (32), or use a rolling method not found in the books. When rolling, I do the following... Each player rolls a single 4d6 (drop lowest) and records that number. Usually on the white-board we use for combat resolution. The DM rolls extra abilities to bring the total up to 6. The players then vote to keep or reroll. Reroll means erase the numbers, not save them in case rolls go badly after that. This way, everyone has the same opportunity like they would with point buy, while allowing everyone to roll. Which I find most players like better anyway. The super-lucky guy is likely offset by someone rolling a rather low score. The others aren't envious of super-lucky's ability scores -- his start the same as everone else. Oh, and the DM has the ultimate veto power. This way, if four 18s roll, the DM can explain if it makes him uncomfortable having a party with super heroes instead of heroes. Then he can force a reroll. Cheers Otto :)
RogerWilco 01-29-06, 09:51 AM	Hi. Where can I read about point-buy and the numbers you guys are suggesting (actual stat figures for players to distribute as they please rather than having to roll or point buy)? Thanks! DMG pg. 169. as already pointed out by nastynate. We use 32 point buy.
YRM 01-29-06, 12:46 PM	I have one player who tends to unbalance things when it comes to die-rolling. I've given him my dice, dice just bought off the shelf, his dice... and he's amazing. You can't get less than a pair of 18s out of him at character generation. So... I need a "slightly better than average" point buy to try to take to my players. What does everyone recommend? The problem with point buy is, unless you believe a single high stat and a ton of weak stats are actually better than balanced stats, it favors classes that like a lot of good stats. Point buy systems reward characters who buy as many 14s as they can. People who buy 17s and 18s have far less total modifier. Monks, Paladins, Bards, and other classes who favor 3-4 strong stats are better in point buy than a Fighter or Wizard. As such, we use a Modifier = 8 system. No stat lower than 8, three stats even, three stats odd, no two the same, and total = +8. You can use Modifier = 5 or 6 if you want it to be lower. This way, a barbarian or fighter CAN have an 18 STR and another decent stat or two, and they'll still have weaknesses, but they'll have less weaknesses than they would with a point buy system. A paladin can still have balanced stats, and even have one or two that are above average, without taking any 18s. The 3 odd stats give the player goals for adding stat points at least through level 12. Anyway, it's worked well for us.