Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sjay1 09-15-05, 11:39 AM	like the titles suggests i'm looking for a nice way to give high lvl clerics / druids a challenging combat.... Thanks already...
tarsia 09-15-05, 11:55 AM	Grapple them. Get some critter with plenty of grapple bonuses and have some 'personal' time. :D
mike_beavers 09-15-05, 12:35 PM	up close and personal like previous poster said. If not grappling, hit often and hard to force him to make concentration checks to cast spells
Illion the Red 09-15-05, 12:40 PM	Iron Colossus
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-15-05, 12:45 PM	I would say anything capable of producing an Anti-Magic Field Beholders perhaps? Conversely, anything that can cast better spells and dish out more damage. I would avoid undead for the obvious reasons, but Spellweavers usually stop them in their tracks. Not alot of melee, but they can cast up to 6 LEVELS of spells at the same time. Did I mention they have ALL of the meta-magic feats as well. :smirk:
solbergb 09-15-05, 02:33 PM	Can't grapple a prepared high level cleric (freedom of movement) without doing something about his spells. If you CAN grab the cleric, it tends to shut him down fast. Picking on the reflex save, the focus and spell comp pouch helps if they're buffed to the nines. A lot of clerics have trouble with people who do something as simple as grease them, silence them and have the party fighter start chopping away at their comps. They have lots of VS only spells, but not a whole lot of silent non-component spells, they can't activate divine feats without a focus and reflex spells like grease or a trip attack from the fighter can keep them from moving out of the silence. (whose level 4 party accidently killed a level 14 entropomancer because they didn't know he was suppose to get away and they happened to have in the party mix perfectly timed grease and silence spells, plus some extra magic missiles to cope with AC and a lot of aggressive fighters who first chopped away components then sometimes got a lucky hit on the AC. Yes the shard of entropy (about the only thing he could do in that situation) hurt. But a level 14 with a reflex save of "2" is gonna have some problems if you focus on it) The rules of challenging divine casters. 1. Don't let them buff 2. Dispell any buffs they have or work around them 3. Don't let them buff 4. Many encounters per day to drain their prepared spells and limit options 5. Don't let them buff 6. Pick on their weaknesses (low reflex saves, any low attributes they might have, components and foci) 7. Don't let them buff 8. Enforce the code of conduct for their deity/ethos 9. Don't let them buff 10. If you do let them buff, space out encounters so they can't use one set of buffs over and over. 11. Dont' let them buff 12. Strictly enforce the prayer time. Unlike arcane casters they don't get to choose when they can recharge their spells. Enemies who know their prayer time can attack right before it, when their spells are likely at the lowest ebb (attacking during doesn't really help, you are allowed to delay prayer if you physically can't pray when you are supposed to) I hope that's clear :) If you let divine casters buff, they'll walk over any normal opposition. All of the ways of coping with them involve not letting them get the use of all their spells in all encounters per day. Even #6, which doesn't depend on whether they are buffed is about preventing them from getting the use of more spells. #6 is a lot harder though on a cleric buffed with divine power, righteous might, freedom of movement and things like spell immunity or spell resistance.
Mirikon 09-15-05, 03:39 PM	like the titles suggests i'm looking for a nice way to give high lvl clerics / druids a challenging combat.... Thanks already... Forcecage + Transmute Rock to Lava Other clerics or druids High level wizards, who knew they were coming. 1,000,000 Kobolds, with the Swarm Fighting feat Asmodeous
ShadowDragon8685 09-15-05, 03:42 PM	Shatter his Holy Symbol. BAM, crap-poor Fighter. :)
scott644 09-15-05, 04:35 PM	Just use illusions to draw them out and make them use their spells - then hit them with the real thing.
OctoberRaven 09-15-05, 04:38 PM	This reminds me of the old D&D adage: The best way to stop a Barbarian from charging is to take away his Greyhawkian Express card. Seriously though, perhaps a mindflayer with antimagic field...I forget if AMF works on psions.
psionichamster 09-15-05, 04:51 PM	fight clerics like you would Jedi: use poison, lots and lots of inhaled poison disrupt their casting hit them just before they prepare their spells (if at dawn, they need that 15min of conc. to prep...thats 300 rds of combat with only the spells they had last prepared. prob no armor either) pay off the rogue to backstab him use environmental hazards he can't avoid...lava/acid/spiky death summon lots of monsters to slow him down...just be sure they're either grapplers, poisoners, or both. preferably use neutral monsters use a specialized dispeller w/ the spell "Reciprocal Gyre" from CA. basically, they have to save for each buff they have on (not sure of the save, tho) or take damage based on the lvl of the spell kill his god kill his ministry challenge his faith give him more of x than his god possibly could turn him to the dark side (via domination/charm/diplomacy/etc) and watch as he becomes your errand-boy of evil hire ninjas hire pirates hire ninja-pirates. (really, the easiest way to drop a cleric is w/ a sneak-attacking rogue w/ throwing daggers or a shortbow, poisoned weapons, TWF (or RapidShot), and invisibility and haste. cost: around 1000-1500 for the haste potion/invis pot/poisoned weapons) namaste' the hamster
OctoberRaven 09-15-05, 04:54 PM	hire ninjas hire pirates hire ninja-pirates. Also, try ninja-pirates riding on cyborg dinsosaurs armbed with Febreeze.
Kalidor 09-15-05, 05:01 PM	http://www.raphaelk.co.uk/web%20pics/Tibet/first/Dancing%20Monks%20B.jpg "Oooh! Oooh! Pick me! Pick me!"
Sjay1 09-15-05, 05:02 PM	allright nice suggestionts..thanks a lot..I really like most of your ideas!! And am so going to use them
ck2001wendt 09-15-05, 05:09 PM	Hey, Clerics really ARE the Jedi of D&D! Worst case scenario, you're up against a Divine MM (Persistant) Divine Favor + Divine Power + Righteous Might cleric. Poison won't work (high fort + neutralize poison + restoration). Will saves and Fort Saves won't work. Grappling generally won't work (Travel Domain + Freedom of Movement is pretty popular). AMF field are a good bet, but even that won't save you from an Initiate of Mystra. I'd think about:. -Touch attacks (probably relying on Plate + a Tower Shield). Orbs of Force are good. -Reflex Saves, but not necessarily Energy Damage (Prot. v. Energy, Resist Energy, Energy Immunity). -Battlefield control to cut them off from the rest of the party. Physical barriers like Walls of Stone to make them burn a spell or a round. -Trip him or Sunder the stuff he cares about. -Rogues. Rogues who can get past a cleric's defenses will mess him up. The best Assassin tool I've ever seen is Radiant Holding ammunition. It reduces all ammo damage down to one point of force, but it's a touch attack. You could probably build a pretty good death squad with some Spellthieves (Complete Adventurer), Radiant Holding Ammo (Magic of Faerun), Craven (Lords of Ruin; adds Char level to SA damage), and the conditions for an SA. Think about a couple of Rogues who have activated an AMF scroll, then walk up to the Cleric and proceed to flank him senseless.
Sjay1 09-15-05, 05:12 PM	Worst case scenario, you're up against a Divine MM (Persistant) Divine Favor + Divine Power + Righteous Might cleric. Poison won't work (high fort + neutralize poison + restoration). Will saves and Fort Saves won't work. Grappling generally won't work (Travel Domain + Freedom of Movement is pretty popular). . well..that about summs him up...
psionichamster 09-15-05, 05:45 PM	Also, try ninja-pirates riding on cyborg dinsosaurs armbed with Febreeze. if that don't work, you gotta work on getting samurai Lincoln. cuz, ya'know, samurai Lincoln wins. period. worse comes to worst, just content yourself to consistently harry him and pick off his followers. eventually, he'll slip up, and will have the emnity of the people (since he couldn't protect them, after all) that's when you hit him in his sleep with rogues/assassins/ninjas namaste' the hamster
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-15-05, 05:58 PM	I'll stick with Beholders. AMF on tap!
DOKS_DM_Bill 09-15-05, 06:09 PM	IMO the best way to challenge a Cleric of above average level is to present challenges that are morally questionable, as combat isn't what it's all about. Every enemy was meant to be fought, and odds are in the favor of a prepared cleric...... But not every situation can be overcome by brute force. destroying useful magic items such as a phylactery of faithfulness, and then presenting difficult situations that aren't combat oriented. Most clerics cannot heal an entire army, cure every disease or such. Remove disease can't be cast on an entire water supply of a town, forcing them to track down it's source. If you spend all your time trying to stop your clerics, you'll teach them how to just try harder. Clerics are all about standing up for what they believe in, whatever that may be. It takes about 6 seconds to throw a diseased corpse in a water supply, 3 days to fester, 1 week to kill Thousands. and Years to clean up. Don't forget about non-combatants in or near fights with many monstrous humanoid races, THEY HAVE KIDS TOO! and it's an EVIL act to harm innocents no matter what their alignment is. Clerics are the champions of their Deities/Causes they are the representatives on the Prime Material Plane. If you're still having a problem with a good cleric PC, Enemies are not above taking Prisoners/ Killing Innocents. Sowing Dissention among the followers of a specific deity is another good tactic. Framing a cleric also isn't a bad option. trying to watch them talk their way out of problems with a Fallen Shadowbane inquisitor who was decieved into believing the cleric is guilty. well those are just some ideas
tiercel 09-15-05, 07:32 PM	Often, the biggest weakness of a cleric is his friends. Clerics have been juiced up in the 3rd edition to compensate for "no one wanting to play the medic." If your cleric can get away with spending most of spells buffing and attacking, he's going to trash whatever's in his path. If you can hurt his party, though, you will make him spend his spells (and his in-combat actions) healing buddies, which will keep him from opening a can of holy whoop...ing on your BBEG. (Of course, your cleric doesn't HAVE to heal his buddies, but if he doesn't, he won't have buddies for very long, and his deity may have a little chat with him, depending on his portfolio....)
Esgarblackpox 09-15-05, 07:52 PM	face him off against a nisherba (from monsters of faerun) they eat magic. but they are only CR 7.... so throw a couple at him.
OctoberRaven 09-15-05, 08:24 PM	Hey, Clerics really ARE the Jedi of D&D! No they are not. Paladins are clearly more Jedi-like than Clerics.
Rhomphaia 09-15-05, 08:46 PM	No they are not. Paladins are clearly more Jedi-like than Clerics. And monks aren't?
OctoberRaven 09-15-05, 08:58 PM	And monks aren't? Not really, they only thing they have similiar to Jedi is no armor. Jedi (not counting Sith) are always LG, and are all about protecting the Republic and destroying evil. Also they have the law enforcementness that Paladins have. Of course, Jedi do have psionics too. So Psion Paladins I guess?
Nightbane 09-15-05, 09:03 PM	Bestow Greater Curse is always fun.
Sildatorak 09-15-05, 09:13 PM	Groups of rogues with spellstoring weapons charged with dispel magic are fun, especially in groups. Even if the cleric wades in fully buffed, some of those dispel magics will manage to strip away a buff or two. Cutting down the cleric's offensive capabilities makes the fight go longer and the rogues will get more opportunities for sneak attacks. You should throw at least 3 rogues (preferably more) since you know that one will die to harm in the first round. Without a buddy to flank the rogue NPC is no challenge.
Esgarblackpox 09-15-05, 09:26 PM	but if the cleric was smart, he could just put his back to a wall....no more rougish sneak attacks...
ShadowDragon8685 09-15-05, 09:36 PM	Guys, you're trying way too hard here. Get back to Basics time. Spellcaster F-ing-up 101 stuff. Silence. Cast on something very sticky. Ranged touch attack = spells with V components don't work. (Tanglefoot bag works nicely.) Readied actions to Improved Disarm him of his Holy Symbol when he goes to cast. Chances are that unless you have in-depth roleplayers, they've never upgraded past the wooden symbol they start with. Guess what? Most monks can Sunderize that puppy without having to roll if they have it in their hands. They can probably do it even if he's holding it. Try an Evard's Black Tentacles. He'll have a fun time spellcasting while he's playing oily-wrastlin' with a bunch of hentai tentacle monsters. Heck, how about just having a couple of big things perform Mennoth's Foosball Tackle on him. As a readied action. He won't be able to cast from the bottom of a dogpile. Plus, he's a Cleric. He has all the weaknesses of a Fighter, too. I'll bet he's slow as crap. Exploit this. I'll bet he's wearing armor, too. Heat Metal, anyone? Exploit his poor Reflex saving throw and his crappy Touch AC.
psionichamster 09-16-05, 09:38 AM	maximized Ray of Enfeelblement at 10th caster lvl -11 str, anyone? touch attack, no save. want to get even more silly (high level cleric, after all), and max/empower it. 16 str penalty? even w/ divine might, bull's str, he's still at like -6 or 8 str (dont remember if DM was +2 or +4) then the rogues step in and whack him with as many POISONED daggers as possible yes, his save is good. yes, he can then spend spells and rounds nullifying any poison that hits him. but the more chances to save, the better. look at it this way. there is a chance that he will fail the save, even if it's 1 in 20. 5% multiplied by 12 or 14 (3 rogues w/ TWF, BAB 6, and potions of haste). and if he fails, he takes some nasty stat damage (i rec. str poison, like centipede-the bigger the better- especially if you are going with the above strategy. worst comes to worst? he spends the next round moving 30 and nullifying what you just did, or quicken casting/casting to fix himself (neut poison/restoration, IF he's prepped the for the day). Rather than killing you with melee attacks or flamestriking you. of course, just find a dragon w/ CR equal to the clerics, +1. pay said dragon to kill this guy. problem solved (i mean, it's easier to take out a dragon of CR than a prepped cleric of equal CR, especially after he just fought the cleric.) namaste' the hamster (also: tanglefoot bags are a touch attack, DC 15 reflex or be stuck, provoke conc. checks for casting, and need slashing weapons to remove. my personal favorite alchemical weapon by far!) h
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-16-05, 09:50 AM	You could also send an Ur-Priest after him. :smirk:
Esgarblackpox 09-16-05, 09:59 AM	how many rouges are we talking here? 1 in 20 is alot of rouges. alot of us seem to think that using a ridiculous # of rouges (which would probably alert him to the fact that the DM wants him dead) is the best way to go. dragons work well too.
MarkB 09-16-05, 10:20 AM	of course, just find a dragon w/ CR equal to the clerics, +1. pay said dragon to kill this guy. problem solved (i mean, it's easier to take out a dragon of CR than a prepped cleric of equal CR, especially after he just fought the cleric.) Depends on how high-level the Cleric is, and what he's got available. My 18th-level Cleric was recently instrumental in defeating a CR25 Fiendish White Wyrm dragon by the simple expedient of Gating in a Celestial Gold Dragon of similar CR.
Sildatorak 09-16-05, 04:42 PM	but if the cleric was smart, he could just put his back to a wall....no more rougish sneak attacks... Not if you throw a grappler in the mix :devil:
DOKS_DM_Bill 09-17-05, 03:10 AM	Delay Poison means poison attacks are useless. a Defiant would work best, totally negating any Divine spells. Frostburn has some really nifty spells "Shivering Touch, Lesser" and "Shivering Touch" that do 1d6 / 3d6 Dex damage by touch with no save, SR does apply though. maximize that or empower it or hell even have it Energized and empowered 6d6 Dexterity damage damage (3+2+2 = 7th level spell slot)
Andrew 09-17-05, 05:45 AM	Demons or Devils. Plural. One demon is expected. Sometimes they come in pairs. When there's a third one, people die. At least one of the demons wades in and tanks. The second one lobs greater dispel magic. The third either backs up the first or backs up the second if the dispel doesn't take.
yellowdingo 09-17-05, 07:55 AM	best bet: Have them beaten and robbed in their room in the inn, hell, have every inn, church and house they stay in firebombed in the middle of the night by unknown assailants. Being followed by one rival cleric with nothing more than a ring of invisibility and a haversack of molotov cocktails with instructions to burn down any place they spend the night can prove more effective than direct physical assaults. If every village, hamlet, and wheatcrop they pass burns to the ground that same night people are going to start thinking terrible things about your little cleric. Have their clothes deliberately contaminated with lice, mites, ticks, and everything else that is uncomfortable and annoying every time they sleep on dirt out in the wilderness. Constantly harried, harassed, waken, prevented from getting sleep, praying in meditation, for day after day after day until the scruffy little cleric falls over sweating and twitching funny, "I gotta sleep, I gotta sleep, I gotta sleep...".