Post/Author/DateTime	Post
albinomonkeyking 09-08-07, 02:30 AM	I've hit a lull in playing d&d. Well, really many of my friends moved away or we had falling outs so until I finish up this semester I will most likely be without d&d. I feel like I'm getting rusty so I wanted something to get the ol' engine kicked back into gear. So, without further delay: What in your opinion makes a good BBEG or villian? Furthermore, if you feel like putting in your favorite BBEG that would be great. I was recently discussing books with a friend and we agreed that some of the best villians are ones that aren't completely evil. They may be doing bad but you can empathize with them. Honestly, I've never really tried the approach. Any experience or stories to share? Thanks for any response.
heffroncm 09-08-07, 02:44 AM	The "power corrupts" BBEG is one of my favorites. He starts out of some noble cause, and becomes increasingly powerful and jaded as he goes until he rots at the core. Raistlin Majere is a good example from D&D literature. Another fun one is the insidious politician. A powerful man, with ear of the secular authority, who can never be directly linked with any wrongdoing.
PhaedrusXY 09-08-07, 02:53 AM	And then there is of course "the monster". A villain who though entirely mortal, does things so inhuman that they'd make an illithid blush. I saw this fine example (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12824962&postcount=35) of that archtype earlier today. The thread on the Bard BBEG "revolutionary" on this board was also alot of fun.
heffroncm 09-08-07, 03:03 AM	And then there is of course "the monster". A villain who though entirely mortal, does things so inhuman that they'd make an illithid blush. I saw this fine example (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12824962&postcount=35) of that archtype earlier today. The thread on the Bard BBEG "revolutionary" on this board was also alot of fun. That's... ugh. ... My player's are going to hate me next month ^.^
Thubby 09-08-07, 03:11 AM	any good bbeg should be intimidating. the characters and the players should all be looking at each other going "are we going to survive this?" as to best type, they all have their merits in my book, but if i had to pick a favorite i'd say iether say the "not quite evil" one like you said. or the "relentless evil", that thing that never seems to die, and seeks nothing but your utter destruction. terminator is a good example, if a bit small scale. the key to a not so evil bbeg is that they should be working to a non evil end, or at least in their mind. or it should not be their fault, like if they're possessed. a good story in my campaign involved one of the high level npcs of my world got lyncropathy. being who he is, he could decimate a small country in his time out of control. and that was the case, as time went on he became more and more consumed by the disease, his thoughts slowly warped and corrupted till the hero he used to be was only a legend. he gained followers, wearwolves like himself and others. in the beginning the party would encounter him regularly, they got to know him, he helped them in quests, shared camp with them, became their friend. but eventualy was too far gone, he would be almost schizophrenic in the few times they saw him, and he was too strong to be captured, couldn't be cured, and so he ended his life the terror of a kingdom on the end of their blades. darkside is, was, and always will be one of the coolest villains ever. whatever he achieved, that is the perfect villain.
Hakar_Kerarmor 09-08-07, 03:12 AM	My favorites? The Ur-Quan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEFALqujPPU
Ghostwheel 09-08-07, 03:19 AM	One strong possibility is to use the fact that some cultural aspects become corrupted over time. As an example, imagine if Star Trek's Borg had begun as a simple attempt by one species to extend their natural lifespans. Over time they became they became the grotesque assimilators that we all love to hate. Another example might be one culture having an edge over another, perhaps magical, technological, or psionic. What might have started as a benign attempt to protect the less advanced culture (or Race) could have morphed over time into something far more sinister; perhaps a de facto form of slavery. Now, I think that working a Borg-like race into DnD would be problematic; but if someone were to do all of that work, I would love to see the result. The second idea would be much easier to work into DnD, but would also offer a lot of exciting possibilities. Just remember that time can alter circumstances so that what was once benign, can become evil. It can happen to a culture as well as to an individual.
heffroncm 09-08-07, 03:24 AM	My favorite all-time BBEG in any of my games actually started out as a PC. This little faekin Wizard was a bit obsessed with fire. He was determined from the start to tap the elemental font of fire and learn the secrets of the world from this purity. About a year of play goes by, when he finally gets his chance. He is consumed by the fire, reborn stronger and more pure, and becomes completely unhinged. It is now his character's goal in life to unleash the purifying flames of rebirth upon the entire world. He wants to burn you. For your own good. To make you better. The entire plot thread developed almost unknown to me, as I thought I just had a wizard who was a pyro on my hands. Suddenly, he twists my entire description of what was supposed to be a near-religious event into the justification of his new quest for world destruction. It was a jaw-drop moment for me, and one of the most talked about moments in my groups gaming history. Eventually, a new group of heroes had to stop the sprite from putting his "cleansing" into action. To the end, they felt sorry for the poor, psychotic little guy.
JulesCARV 09-08-07, 03:41 AM	I like the idea of a crude, thuggish villain who tends to make a lot of mistakes and isn't too bright, but nonetheless pulls through through sheer brute power. Needless to say, such a semi-incompetent villain might have to have a higher ECL than normally seems appropriate, thanks to his less effective use of his power. I'm thinking maybe a physical bruiser like a barbarian, or possibly an evocation-oriented sorcerer or warmage. Maybe a crime boss. His ineptitude doesn't make him harmless, mind you. Where a more competent villain might cleanly have an embezzling mob subordinate assassinated, this guy might fireball him while he's shopping for groceries, killing the subordinate and five innocent bystanders out of stupidity and lack of imagination.
Drag0nUL 09-08-07, 04:05 AM	To be honest, I am not very good at making memorable BBEGs. So far I have only succeeded twice. My favorite one actually started out a PC. A mighty holy warrior (a multiclass paladin) that had been trained from childhood to serve as a champion of a realm in dire need for heroes. Behind the scenes however, his trainers were part of a dark and sinister organization and he was 'created' with the main purpose of destroying their rivals. He eventually discovered the truth, confronted and defeated his mentor and his closest allies. So now a nationwide organization of spies and warriors remained leaderless. 'So much power going waste. This power could and should be used to do good.' So he assumed the leadership of the organization and turned it to an evil-fighting machine. In time he discovered that even with these resources at his disposal there were evil things he couldn't prevent, places he couldn't reach. So he needed more power. Therefore he seized control of the country and so the Kingdom of the Pure was born. All was good for now, but what was going to come of this world after he died? He had to become immortal it was his holy duty! And a lich he became. Corrupted with absolute power, The Kingdom of the Pure and his leader had become a paragon of merciless inflexible justice. Anyone offending his vision of what was right had to be punished. And there was only one punishment even for the most insignificant transgressions: death. To make things a bit clearer: I didn't plan for this character to fall from the start, but rather it came as a logical evolution of his personality. And the Kingdom of the Pure and its Undead leader featured on the campaign map for another 2 campaigns afterward (until he was finally dealt with; pretty hard to do; I had really built him as a tough nut to crack;) ) as a pretty important villain.
Lormador 09-08-07, 09:05 AM	It's possible to run a law/chaos split just as well as a good/evil split. Think about this campaign a little. The PCs are good, but are all strongly chaotic. They live in a lawful good town, the outlying area of a paladin in a distant city who takes it upon himself to defend the town and collect taxes and such. Put in some unintelligent, unorganized monsters from a source nearby to serve as an opportunity for the players to cooperate with the political powers that be, so they can be distracted on the one hand and torn on the other when the lawful nature of the paladin-ruled area begins to show itself. The town rulers can begin to forcibly move people away from the monster-infested area, exact taxes and tolls making it more difficult to do business, force the players to surrender their weapons in certain area, pay a fee for traveling armed, etc. At some point the players will rebel against this good-hearted tyranny, and if they aren't chaffing fast enough, the situation is ripe for a black-hearted rogue with many ranks in Forgery, Bluff, and Disguise to make their lives difficult.
LFK 09-08-07, 11:51 AM	An awesome villain is one who's motivations are logical, who's motivations make sense and seem rational on some twisted level. Dr. Breen from HL2 is a good example: he's doing horrible, horrible things to humanity, but he honestly believes that the only hope for any aspect of humanity to survive is to give in to the Combine, that war would just get our entire species wiped out. Roy from Blade Runner doesn't want to die. Lady Eboshi from Princess Mononoke is destroying the environment, driving out the animal spirits, but because this isolated town of hers, economically fueled by the iron they mine, is the only way she can give hope and new life to the prostitutes, homeless, lepers, and other miserables that she sympathizes and shelters. Good villains are memorable, dramatic, engaging. Awesome villains can be empathized with. Of course this does involve the characters being able to learn the motivations of your villain in some way.
HarlequinHelsing 09-08-07, 01:16 PM	I've always been a fan of the 'Untouchable' villain. This one could either be incredibly lucky and adept at avoiding capture by the PCs, or in a position of power such that the PCs cannot deal with him without incurring some serious repercussions. One of my favorite things to do to my PCs is have the BBEG walk by them on the street while the PCs can't do a damn thing against him. Even better if it's not immediately obvious that the villain is untouchable. What's the paladin gonna do when the BBEG falls to his knees in a climactic fight, and a little girl runs to his side, crying, 'Papa?' Untouchable BBEGs are incredibly fun to use, just as long as you aren't DMing a party of meatheads whose response to every problem is 'I hit it again.'
albinomonkeyking 09-08-07, 02:27 PM	Wow, there are a lot of good ideas in here. I've never tried the 'untouchable' villian, political villian, or the 'transformed hero'. Hmmm, maybe I'll toy around with that. Maybe all three, maybe just a combination of two. Good stuff everyone, you guys have great imagination.
richard_k 09-08-07, 04:41 PM	One of the most memorable baddies from my childhood atleast was Skeletor...maybe a BBEG that resembles him or just his personality...though Frank Langella in the movie played him very well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gley6088MLU
Castlequeenside 09-08-07, 06:44 PM	Reading this thread makes me feel so lame, all my baddies end up being dragons in human form. :( I should probably mix it up a little bit.
Zephania 09-08-07, 06:55 PM	One of my favorites is the "Mastermind/Controller"..they guy who appears to be the PC's friend all along, getting them to do his bidding. The BBEG like this I'm running right now is also a Fiend of Corruption, with the goal of sacrificing the material plane as a whole to attain godhood. Also, the "Lingering Power" villian is fun. The camapign continues even after he's been killed, because of all the stuff he's started. Like the extra quest to destroy the phlactery of the lich, which he embedded in a baby, now a young boy. Fun with a paladin in the party!
albinomonkeyking 09-08-07, 07:12 PM	Reading this thread makes me feel so lame, all my baddies end up being dragons in human form. :( I should probably mix it up a little bit. Don't sweat it, that's why I made the thread. ;) Most of my games are usually: 'Oh, there is the BBEG, get him!' A long campaign later they realize the guy they were after was either not as bad or being used by someone they had never even knew existed. I was getting tired of the same 'ol so this is inspiration.
Makuta999 09-08-07, 08:53 PM	lol My best BBEG was actually a detailed henchmen of a bigger BBEG, but the BBEG turned out to be absolutly stupid in comparison. William the Ghost. Basically he's the "I'm helping you, but not really." kinda evil guy. I made it so that he was a great illusionist, and kept the player's going "wtf? wtf? wtf?" and turned them against each other/confused them. As well, I constantly let them know that they where facing something evil, but I only let one player know in-game. Out of game, when the players had split up to start searching, and William started lying to another player, they all looked at each other with scared wide eyes, and basically started going "Oh crap oh crap oh crap". Such a fun guy to play. Right now he's possessing the character of one of the guys who left. And the entire party knows it. Unfortunatly, they didn't know it originally, and so William sliced open one of the character's throats, and has basically been bothering them ever since. Muhahaha! Such a fun bad-guy to play.
LFK 09-08-07, 09:24 PM	Another great bad-guy scenario (since this isn't actually a personality) is the Orchestrator. The guy himself is just some 12hp schmoe with a lot of money and a family name. Applications: - 'Untouchable' member of upper society. Will be missed if he disappears (discourage assassinations). - 'Invisible' until the PCs cut swaths through his minions to his 'secret lair' (private den in his summer palace, lakeside retreat, pleasure yacht...) then have to either kill him and deal with the weight of slaying a largely defenseless, physically inferior, unarmed opponent in a one-sided battle, or attempt to bring him to the authorities to be judged, a journey that may have risks of its own. - 'Red Herring' who just provides a great moral dilemma moment before the real puppet master reveals himself.
Marstead 09-09-07, 12:19 AM	Spoilers for Metal Gear Solid 2 and Final Fantasy X contained herein! I try to go for a Solidus Snake kind of villain. Though MGS2's plot was incredibly hyper-complex, the basic idea--that Solidus Snake was actually sort of a revolutionary who was trying to save the world from the threat of the Patriots using the only means available to him, and you are forced to fight and kill him because you are a pawn of the Patriots yourself--is a great one. If you set it up right, you can make your party actually want to side with the BBEG in the end, or have them--the pawns of the BBEG's enemies--kill him and then take up his quest afterward to defeat their puppetmasters. Jecht is a great villain-type too (though he isn't really the BBEG, you can use the concept for your campaign). In FFX, Jecht is actually a great hero who was forced to perform a ritual that made him a mindless killing machine, for the good of the world. Of course, he didn't know about the mindless killing machine part when he performed the ritual (but if he had, he may have done it anyway). This could make for a great final battle, when the party has to deal with a BBEG who's a great hero from history and can't control himself from fighting the party, but has to be killed.
Salla 09-09-07, 12:23 AM	My favorite BBEGs combine two things: 1. A motivation that's typically 'not all that evil but taken to an illogical extreme that makes it dangerous'. Like, say, a druid who goes beyond stopping the exploitation of nature and simply intends to kill every sentient being he can, including himself once he's done, and leave the world to the animals. 2. A PC race, not a monster, particularly an elf. Why? Because nobody ever suspects PC races of being villains. Especially elves. I mean regular elves, not drow. He can say *anything* and the players will believe him.
taradusis 09-09-07, 12:38 AM	My favorite BBEG aren't even individuals.I think that ideas in the form of cults or organizations make the best opposition.I mean look at how tough it's been to stamp out things like Nazism or the KKK?An organization like marvels Hydra that keeps coming back under new management makes for good opponents.
Thubby 09-09-07, 02:35 AM	My favorite BBEG aren't even individuals.I think that ideas in the form of cults or organizations make the best opposition.I mean look at how tough it's been to stamp out things like Nazism or the KKK?An organization like marvels Hydra that keeps coming back under new management makes for good opponents. well, yes, those are good enemies, but a bbeg is the guy in charge. if you thought of WW2 in dnd terms, Hitler would be the bbeg.
Marstead 09-09-07, 02:43 AM	My favorite BBEG aren't even individuals.I think that ideas in the form of cults or organizations make the best opposition.I mean look at how tough it's been to stamp out things like Nazism or the KKK?An organization like marvels Hydra that keeps coming back under new management makes for good opponents. I agree, villain groups work great as well. A well-worked group can have different villain archetypes in the elite ranks--you could have one guy who's not evil at all, and disapproves of his fellow officer's actions, another who is super-lawful to the point of punishing everything that doesn't live up to his standards, and another who is completely psychotically evil. I'm currently running a campaign (Norse cosmology) where Half-Elves are a Nazi-like group that believe they are the most pure race and through selective breeding and eugenics will eventually become capable of surviving Ragnarok. They are ruled by the Vardiskar, a group of 36 hyper-elite 15th+level magic-users named for different emotions (Love, Terror, Pride, Fury, etc.) who operate as judge, jury, and executioner throughout their societies and the societies they've dominated. I have several Vardiskar who are actually Lawful Good (Duty), a couple neutral ones (Indifference), and one who is psychotically evil (Curiosity, a Josef Mengele-styled wizard scientist who performs twisted experiments on human and elf prisoners). The differing traits for each Vardiskar means the party reacts to them very differently.
Drag0nUL 09-09-07, 06:31 AM	The main design problem with memorable villain groups is that you have to give them rock solid motivations and infrastructure, so that they aren't held together only by the personality of the leader. Otherwise it is just the classical BBEG and henchmen scenario. For example, take a look at the Roman Empire vs. the empire of Alexander the Great. While the first was so solid that you cold assassinate let's say the next 10-15 people in line to the throne and it would still be there, while the second collapsed at the death of the man that held it together. Most of my players, when confronted with an organization prefer surgical strikes to the head (leaders). It would be nice for a change to give them an organization that just doesn't react well to such treatments and keeps coming back
qlawdat 09-09-07, 11:09 AM	I personally LOVE to mess with traditional good/evil. Having a gold dragon be the bad guy is much fun. For example. A gold dragon finds a town if find worthy of raising its young. So the town now has one or two young gold dragons that take a lot of effort to raise, and that keep stealing things (the hatchlings them selves go to great lengths to justify why its ok for them to take whatever they want). And if they try to do anything about it a huge gold dragon (this works better I think when the players are at a level where fighting any dragon would result in near instant death). The parent dragon checks in from time to time, always demanding that its young be treated better and better. In this kind of situation I would have a person that would normally be the bad guy, lets say a smuggler that deals with slavery come to the rescue of the town.
High Octane 09-09-07, 11:59 AM	Skeletor is the quidessential BBEG. I can't think of a more over the top villain that still works. He's meglomaniacal, wallows in evil, is a walking symbol of death and all that is "icky" sort of evil. Even Venger had nothing on Skeletor. If you are looking for a villain though, you really should consider, what sort of feeling do you want to invoke? Do you want a villain that irks them by being outrageously evil, kicking puppies and the like? Do you want a mysterious villain, leaving your players contemplating his origins but knowing full well what they must do to stop him? Do you want a meglomaniacal villain, either bidding for a seat of great power or already having it? Once you figure out what you want your players to feel, it should make the villain creation easier. Here are a few memorable traits to give the villain: Charm: Make the villain likable if it weren't for the fact that he is a villain. A perfect example of this would be Hades from Disney's Hercules (played by James Woods), who is a fast talking humorous sort with a funny Northeast US dialect. Utter Callousness: Make the villain so callous to all the pain and suffering he is causing, to the point that he doesn't even remember who he kills. Killing is like taking out the garbage to them, they might even have sick ways of making it fun. Xykon from Order of the Stick for example is like that, but I like this line from the Street Fighter Movie myself: Chun Li: My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away. A hero at a thousand paces! Bison: I'm sorry... I don't remember any of it. Chun Li: You don't remember? Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me... it was Tuesday. "Honor": This villain is the type who will be willing to fight you on semi-even ground, even though in the end he might betray it when he feels he is losing. Unlike your callous villain, he will see you as a nemesis, rather than an obstacle, so killing you becomes quite personal. Skeletor for example, didn't just want He-Man assassinated at night by a hired goon, he wanted to take down He-Man himself. Just....won't....stay....dead: Ah, the staple of any serial villain. They just keep coming back no matter what you do. This is what I call the Dr. Wily complex, though I'm sure you could give it many other types of names. They always have an escape plan, they always survive, and they come back ******. Strange Habit: This villain is way off. He has some sort of irrational habit, such as a hatred of mirrors, complete fear of getting dirty, hears voices, even argues with himself. Even having a stutter would make him memorable. Veiled Villany: This villain has innocents convinced he is the good guy. He uses your own desire to not hurt good people against you as you are attacked by peasants and militia of a town he has coerced into rising up against their attackers. Angry citizens who you are trying to save and protect hating you? Adoring your villain? In your heart you know they are not the bad guys, but they are doing the bad guys work. The priest from the first episodes of Full Metal Alchemist is like this. Fallen Hero: This may be a paladin turned blackguard, or perhaps a normal hero turned into a vampire. This villain really doesn't strike a chord unless the players know the person. Perhaps they see their long time NPC ally turned into a vampire or worse. Dark Hero: The good guys aren't the only ones with heroes. Often enough the bad guys have leaders they admire and adore, not just fear. This villainous character leads his dark army with promises of glory , heading in on the front lines, being a symbol and champion for his people. He may even be brave and loyal. Still, he follows a dark purpose, and rarely is he merciful. He can often be misguided, or even just taking orders for the wrong team. Often enough though, he leads his people so forcefully and truly for his own benefit. Arthas from the Warcraft universe (after turning undead) is an example of this. A more sympathetic type is Ashram from Record of Lodoss Wars (who is my favorite character by the way, just because he is so deep and complex).
Lyinginbedmon 09-09-07, 03:18 PM	Ah, so many to remember: BroShaCho, for their persistance. A group headed by three epic level characters, a fey, outsider, and undead. One manipulates, another slaughters, and the last plots. Meredith Nussulheim, the 1st High Maester of Grimdolf. Tragically warped and murderously juvenile at times, her terror is only worsened by her appearance: She's a pixie. Vex the Malign, convicted of another crime. Locked away in a room underground for over four centuries, simply for being in a room with people who hadn't survive a disease. Never underestimate a Sorcerous Warlock ghoul. Aust Liadon, ex-hero. Brainwashed by BroShaCho and now one of their best minions, an Elf monk of great power now a sunless vampire at their beck and call. Used to be a PC, no less. Those are the ones that come to mind at the moment.
ito_david1 09-09-07, 03:43 PM	I love the spell caster who can cast mind control spells, and necromantic spells. Old fashioned and still useful to this day, for me at least.
albinomonkeyking 09-09-07, 04:21 PM	Great ideas, especially High Octane. I'm gonna save that list, I think I can do great things with that. Thanks to everyone again.
HarlequinHelsing 09-09-07, 05:24 PM	Excellent list, High Octane. I especially like the 'Strange Habit' part; I can totally picture a BBEG flying into a rage and storming out of a climactic battle because something happened that he wasn't expecting. The more trivial the better: 'Jesus Christ! What the hell is wrong with you?! Do you see what you just did?! Look at this bloodstain! This is Winter Wolf Fur!! This isn't going to just wash out! Get out of my sight. If I see you again, I will kill your families, I will burn your hometowns, I will torture everyone who has ever spoken to you! GO! GO AWAY!!' I'm also a fan of the villain who can't be disposed of through conventional means. Now, this could mean that he can only be killed with a certain kind of weapon, but I'm thinking deeper than that. I'm thinking some immortal villain who will only go away when he hears his mother tell him she loves him. Stuff like that. Make the PCs think beyond the blade.
discipleofevil 09-09-07, 05:49 PM	I saw this fine example (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12824962&postcount=35) of that archtype earlier today. The thread on the Bard BBEG "revolutionary" on this board was also alot of fun. omg so not nice. even if you defeat the guy (and by defeat io mean make him flee) he is still alive and you have probably killed your charges. im sickened yet strangely i see the twisted fun this could make
Xtian 09-09-07, 06:35 PM	I agree with a number of other posts that PCs make some of the most memorable villains. A friend of mine played a necromancer who was constantly experimenting on himself in order to find cures for different diseases, and eventually a way to extend human life. He eventually turns himself into a lich, but by this point, is wrapped up with a party that is striving to keep the two largest nations from tearing each other, and most of the known world, to shreds. In doing so, the party hears about an alliance that one of the countries makes with an incredibly powerful lich, so the party goes to disrupt the alliance and maybe kill the lich. In order to slay his foe, the necromancer promises to release a group of vampires from service to the lich, taking them on as his own elite strike force. After the lich is dead, the necromancer finds materials about becoming a demi-lich, and leaves with his vampires to go collect the necessary material. Over the next little while, he helps the party keep the continent from falling into war and chaos while he prepares himself for demi-lichdom and his vampires build an undead army, mostly for the purposes of protecting the research site. After a successful transformation, the vampires start ordering the undead army to expand the base's territory to make room for more research projects, but do so aggressively, and so upset nearby mortals enough to launch an attack. The necromancer fights to help his undead allies/minions, and in doing so, slaughters thousands of soldiers with his demi-lich powers. As the undead horde grows and starts to march on the cities that fielded the army in the first place, the party confronts the necromancer in the most agonizing and nail-biting battle of the campaign. Somewhat melodramatic, and very ill-thought-out on the DMs part for letting a player become a demi-lich, but a crazy fun adventure.
DonThelonious 09-09-07, 09:04 PM	Okay, I have been tossing around this idea for a cool BBEG: A little girl whose soul is in a magic jar and is being controlled by a Demi-Lich whose phylactory is in the form of a jewel studded false tooth. The Demi'Lich uses magic to control the soulless body. This presents a few interesting problems: 1. The PCs only know that they have a very powerful little girl, possibly possessed or whatever, that they might end up killing. 2. The little girl can be saved but her body must be kept intact and the tooth must be found first. 3. Its a little girl for the love of gods, whats a little girl going to do. Seriously. Just thought I would throw that out there and get some opinions.
Talisman 09-09-07, 09:43 PM	I'm going to sound off in support of the "sympathetic villain," my all-time favorite villain archetype. If I find out a villain's history and go "Well, I don't agree, but I see why he slaughtered those elves"...that makes a great villain. Villains shouldn't be evil for evil's sake...they should have logical (if twisted) motivations, and (except in the case of things like dragons, fiends, and sentient evil artifacts) come across as people who do bad things, not "Mwu-ha-ha! I'm evil!" I also think a truly good villain should do evil things. Not just unpleasant; not just icky: evil. Someone who kidnaps people, roughs them up, then lets them go isn't a true villain. Someone who kidnaps a child, murders them, animates their corpse, infects it with the plague, and sends it back to the parents carrying a message...now that's evil. Favorite villains: Well, I've got 4, 3 from my campaigns, 1 from another guy's. Akulas: Doppleganger wizard. At one point he murdered a family for their house and kidnapped their child. When the parents became ghosts, he held their son hostage to make them do his evil bidding. At the final battle, he strapped the kid inside an animated suit of armor and ordered it (the armor) to kill the party. Frostfire: Werewolf fighter, in a campaign where werewolves were heroic defenders of Nature (think WoD). He became disillusioned with the goddess Gaia after a seemingly-endless battle with the undead. He slughtered his own pack as part of a deal with the god of demons intending to use his demonic might to destroy the undead and save the elves. He ended up living in a demon-infested stronghold, abducting elves for horrible experiments, all the while intending to crush the undead. He truly believes he was a good guy. Mirixal: Mind flayer telepath. I threw him at a 4th-level party; they lived only because I played him as a coward. he pursued the party for about 10 levels, always escaping with his cloak of dimension door. A great example of irredeemable, alien evil. Lord Blaine Hawklin: Human death knight fighter. I introduced him as the Captain of the Guard, intending him to be a BBEG. The party killed him in the second session. So I brought him back as a death knight and sent him after them. He was great because he had a history with one of the characters and was an honorable character. Although he was an evil bastard, he kept trying to get one PC to leave the area for his own safety, because he (Hawklin) honestly didn't want to kill the PC. It developed that Hawklin had adventured with the PC's father years ago, only to betray him when under the influence of Mirixal the mind flayer. The PCs finally trapped him in a forcecage, and Hawklin surrendered, asking only for a clean death. They gave it to him.
Twin2 09-09-07, 09:47 PM	One of my favorite villains has to be Mr. Jonathan Teatime appears in Hogfather. His last name is actually pronounced "Teh-ah-tim-eh." He was taken into the Guild as a child because the administration took pity on him after he lost his parents at a young age. It is never specified what happened to young Jonathan's parents; it is, however, implied that what happened to them was young Jonathan. He is boyishly handsome, with curly hair and a ready smile, but these features are ruined by his eyes. One is glass and the other is off-white, with a tiny, pinhole-sized pupil. He is, undoubtedly, a genius, but also sociopathic to an astonishing degree. His mind has been compared at times to both a corkscrew and a shattered mirror (i.e. something brilliant, sharp, and dazzling, but also fundamentally and irrevocably broken). His main problem seems to be that he 'sees things differently from other people, in that he sees other people as things'. This gets him into a spot of trouble early on, as his assassinations often include the brutal murders of not just the target, but also their family, their servants, and very often their pets, all of which is a direct violation of Guild protocol. However, when the Auditors of Reality need someone to assassinate the Hogfather, Mr. Teatime is just the man for the job. When questioned, he reveals to his superior, Lord Downey, that he often used to lie awake in bed at night and think of ways to kill, not only the Hogfather, but also the Tooth Fairy and the Soul Cake Tuesday Duck (Discworld's version of the Easter Bunny), among others (including Death). He commissions the help of a cadre of lowlifes, ranging from big Banjo Lilywhite to the locksmith Mr. Brown, and sets about putting his ingenious plan into action, which inevitably pits him against Susan Sto Helit and her grandfather, Death. Most of the time, Mr. Teatime seems a pleasant, albeit odd young man. He only seems to get irritated when people mispronounce his name. However, he possesses physical abilities which defy physics, and has been known to perform feats such as stabbing through all layers of clothing but stopping before hitting flesh, doing the same thing but with eyelids instead of clothing and eyes instead of flesh, flipping on thin air, and killing so fast he appears to be a blur, all of which he will do without any notice or provocation. Rumours among his associates (somewhat confirmed in the GURPS Discworld RPG sourcebook co-written by Pratchett) imply that the glass eye is in fact a scrying crystal, which might go some way towards explaining his abilities but also means that he implanted notoriously erratic Discworld magic into his own eye-socket. The Assassins' Guild lists him as having vanished without trace since the events in Hogfather, though they have named a "Teatime Prize" in his honour, which is given annually to the student who devises the most creative, but technically accurate, hypothetical inhumation, preferably complete with maps and a proposed route that avoids or disables any guards. You know it's something special when you're dealing with a guy who's been thinking up ways to kill the version of santa, the easter bunny, and even death on discworld in his spare time. Brilliant, and erratic at the same time willing to go to lengths most people can't even fathom to reach their goal.
TheWildKing 09-11-07, 08:43 PM	When I think of what makes the best BBEG, I always go straight to the jackass that traveled with you, helped you, shared in the hardship of the adventure, and then when you finally run into the "BBEG", he walks over next to him and says, "A good start, my apprentice, but now you may see how a master works!" Just makes me ****** when i remember how many hits i took for this guy :headexplo
High Octane 09-11-07, 09:52 PM	Great ideas, especially High Octane. I'm gonna save that list, I think I can do great things with that. Excellent list, High Octane. *Feels warm and tingly inside*
Goon_for_Hire 09-11-07, 10:02 PM	I find that the absolute best BBEGs are essentially human... they either are human(oid) or were at some point (liches, elans, etc.) Throughout the campaign, characters are going to come across some truly terrible, horrendous vile stuff perpetrated by monsters, but in the end, no matter how mant atrocities tey can pin on "monsters" the ultimate one is the work of someone who started out just like them. When I build up my BBEG I make no bones about making them a little creepy... dropping hints and the like, but I generally prefer not to actually come out and connect them to evil events early on. The players suspect but cannot prove that the individual is the BBEG. The longer you can keep the PCs suspecting that the individual is dirty but can;t prove it the better. When they do find out what the BBEG is up to it should also turn out to be grander more horrifying, and more ambitious than the PCs ever dared to dream. Before that happens, the PCs should get to know the villain. I like to make them initially friendly, even downright helpful (in hopes of either sabotaging the PCs with a ticking time bomb of a curse or hireling). I also like to show off the character's awesome political, martial, or magical power... The PCs should see a high-level NPC with rarified talents demolish monsters or enemies early on in a way that will leave them shocked... ...That way when the PCs are finally certain the BBEG is in fact thier target, they are quaking in their boots and quite clearly aware that picking a fight immediately would be suicidal. When I can I prefer the misguided badguy or one who has been forced into their position to an out-and-out evil villain, but sometimes real scum is what the PCs want. My two best villains were Countess Lobelia: One the queen of the nation in question, politics forced her to pursue endless ranges of dark magics to keep the nation on control in the face of overwhelming corruption in the courts. Eventually, desperate to take control she became a lich, and then unleashed a Phane to try and rewind time and undo a critical error in her early reign. It didn't work, and the queen ended up defeated by a time-travelling hero who saw her acts as evil rather than crazy and misguided. By the PCs time she is an embittered demilich who uses a simulacrum of her living self to insinuate herself back into politics. She actually starts as an ally, helping a small movement of knights (The PCs) "kidnap" the crown princess before she can be executed. She gives them shelter and smuggles them out of the kingdom proper, and later works with them as agents of the King to expose the assassination plot... because she hopes to ultimately be above suspicion and have the princess' loyalty when the king meets his untimely death. Baron Sorren: A Nobleman who built a small border fortress at the edge of unclaimed marshlands to help protect the kingdom from rebels, barbarians, and monsters who might use it as a route to attack the kingdom. Sorren's magic, charisma, and shrewd politics allow him to make even a feif in swampland thrive. Of course his mysterious foreign human warriors help... the ones that he brough back from a distant land in which he adventured. What people don;t know is that the Baron's magic comes from the worship of Wastri... he converted while adventuring abroad, and became the mightiest cultist the God of Bigotry ever had. The foreigners are his devout acolytes. His prosperity comes from hidden slave labour camps of demihumans, and his castle that he "miraculously" created in one night was made from a village of rebellious gnomes he "pacified" with his pet gorgon, then stone shaped. Early on Baron Sorren is tier leige-lord, and while he is rude to the party gnome, he is generous with the PCs, heaping vast rewards on them for hunting down smugglers and pirates in the marsh.
albinomonkeyking 09-12-07, 01:40 AM	Once again, thanks for the posts. I think this will be my most profitable threads, I'm already thinking of half a dozen new villians. One in particular I'm a bit curious about though... When PC's go from good to BBEG (or just villian) how does the transition work? In your experiences is it more of something the PC wants that you simply play along with? Is it planned from the beginning, i.e., 'I was wondering if you could play this character...' or 'I want to play this character who turns evil...' Does it happen along the way? I'm really interested in how you make the dramatic shift; I just know my PC's would really hate the character so I'm curious to try it.
Rechan 09-12-07, 02:54 AM	The most successful BBEG I had in a campaign was actually an accident. The PCs were wandering around in the arctic wilderness. So, as a lark, while two were hunting food, I had them find an abandoned mine opening. They go in, and find that it's collapsed, but there's "a red gem sticking out of the pile". Being PCs, they unwittingly yanked it out; the Gem was the pummel on a broken axe haft. The haft was sticking out of a dwarf skeleton underneath the rubble. The PCs shrugged, pocketed the haft (and the head of an evil looking axe near the body) and walked off. Half way through the adventure, one of the PCs turns to the wizard and says what they did. The wizard's eyes get huge. On the way back, they check the cave. The body's gone. They find a corpse in the snow, a local native with its blood drained. The PCs ran. The Vampire dwarf chased them, raised hell in their Town base of operations, and fled. I intended to bring him back. His motivation? "You took my axe. That's very sentimental! Give it back!" I agree that an Organization can sometimes function much better than a straight up BBEG. A good example being a cabal. 4-6 equally leveled villains with a specific goal. If one falls, you still have villains who can "level" appropriately, and if two fall, the cabal can start putting its resources into putting the screws on the PCs. I'm about to insert several semi-BBEGs into my Detective campaign (The Psion's evil brother who's a telekinetic bully; the Master Detective defamed and shown up by the PCs; the slightly inept but politically well-placed detective who turns against the PCs because he discovers one is 'marked as an abomination'). The fact that each of the PCs gave me a "secret" and the BBEGs are going to find these secrets out and put the hurt on them, well... ;)
SevenOfSerenity 09-12-07, 08:18 AM	but I like this line from the Street Fighter Movie myself: Chun Li: My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away. A hero at a thousand paces! Bison: I'm sorry... I don't remember any of it. Chun Li: You don't remember? Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me... it was Tuesday. The entire Street Fighter movie was complete crap, but hidden within all of the awful is this one nugget of raw genius. :P
nightwing 09-12-07, 12:48 PM	Drew 20th level aristocrat S 10, D 10, C 10, I 16, W 24, Ch 30 Max ranks in all Cha based skills. No spellcasting abilities. No armor proficiencies. Simple weapon proficiency. Drew was born with the ability of True Resurrection by touch. This ability, coupled with his unearthly wisdom and charisma, have gained him a veritable army of followers. He has no particular combat ability at all. He makes friends quickly and easily wherever he goes. His allies have put upon themselves the duty of protecting him. Allies include: a fleet of fighters acting as bodyguards, rogues actings as scouts and information-gatherers, wizards creating protective charms and wards for him, etc. Drew does not seek evil for evil's sake, but his desire for control and influence often causes misfortune to entire cities and nations. Because he has found it so easy to influence those around him, no one has yet stood up to him in person. He has even talked assassins sent to kill him out of completing their missions. His resurrection ability is a mystery. He does not worship any diety or divinity at all. If all else fails, he uses the promise of resurrection as a bargaining tool for those who would ally with him. He is completely willing to demonstrate his resurrection ability for anyone. He keeps a squirrel in a cage just for this purpose. He has a servant or follower kill the squirrel, then resurrects it in front of his audience. The challenge for the characters is to wade through his myriad of followers to get at him. The Challenge for the DM is to then make Drew so charming and personable that the PC's want to be his friend, or even better, side with him.
Zanedor 09-12-07, 01:55 PM	Two BBEG types that I find rather interesting to use are: The Shadow: Always in the background and using his/her minions to do the dirty work so much so that the PC’s never get to see them until the last battle save for out of to corner of their eye, or some times they’ll be an acquaintance of the PC’s. The Sentient/Possessed Object: It’s not the guy holding the sword trying to kill you it’s the sword it’s self. These guys are really hard to kill because the PC’s may not know that it’s the real bad guy. This is made harder when the item has a tendency to make its way into the hands of new pawns once you kill its currant host.
AKA_Bait 09-12-07, 02:22 PM	Any really good BBEG needs just four things: 1. Motivation to do Evil. These can be sympatheic motivations or selfish. Personally, I prefer a mix of the two. 2. A distinctive feature or look. What little thing can the PC's notice that will make them jump? 3. A personality flaw. Is he greedy? Selfish? Hot tempered? Your BBEG needs some flaw in the way he plans, or else how would the PC's ever stop him? 4. Some power/ability/class levels that are hardcore enough to scare the pants off of the PC's if they meet them at a low level. As for my personal favorite BBEG that I've made: Silus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55087).
jacob22 09-12-07, 03:04 PM	I too have been using a bard bbeg. This one is a lady who works for a thieves guild with a ninja. So far she's used modify memory to get the group thrown in jail and while they were stuck there she happened upon some ogre bandits. One charm monster to their leader later and the group is ambushed on the way to the next town, which they were exiled from on account of the murder charge. The other abilities of the bard make me drool with anticipation of the havoc she will be able to wreak on the pcs. So far all they know is she smells of lilacs...
Kraikken 09-12-07, 03:37 PM	My favorite BBEG, had to be Cannus, a character that started as a well intentioned Baron of the people who tried to save his friend, the King, and the people he loved from the clossing and crushing grip of the Guilds. Who struck first, niether side can say, yet the victem was the daughter of the King, and Cannus was branded a traitor and a monster when at last the Guilds discovered the wicked heritage that tainted his blood, his house having descended from "noble" werewolves. During the ensuing "Guild Wars" that many of the campiegns stretched across we witnessed Cannus and his Barony Go'r have to turn to darker and more terrible tactics to hold off the endless waves of Guild Mercenaries and Imperial soldiers. Many things where sacrificed, and eventually Cannus himself turned to his own distant heritage for unspeakable powers to save his people from being utterly destroyed only too embrace the powers of a full Werewolf and the madness that accompanies it. Yet even as terrible as he had become, his people followed him without question, having them all commited terrible acts, forced to make perverse deals and sacrifice their living souls for the power to fight back. One of his more perverse creations where the Pit's, where a series of "Doctors" would experiment on the bodies of sorcerers to see if their magically infused bodies could be augmented to be made into weapons or seperate entities. That spawned the BBEG Pit Doctor Krav. Through the actions of this character several other BBEG where spawned as a result of the experiments. My own character, The Beast Kraikken, among them. Even decades after the Guild Wars ended the campiegn still has flavor and back history from which to draw even new players into as many magical items where made and castle's ruined to now be explored. Kraikken, The Beast "I fear no King with a thousand men and all the riches of the world. I fear but a single man, with a sharp blade, and nothing left to loose".