Best way to 'kill' the party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best way to 'kill' the party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Uratoh
03-08-05, 02:14 PM In the game I'm running tomorrow, the PCs will go face a priest of Shar in a temple, and once beating him, Shar will banish them into the Plane of Shadow, where they'll be 'killed'. essentially they'll be set upon by Nightshades and knocked unconscious, only to wake up in a camp in the PoS with a couple people debating what to do with them...basicly, I need tips on how to run the 'death' bit. do I let them fight it out in a battle they cant win (due to infinite foes) or just describe what happens, etc?
Rock_Slice
03-08-05, 02:37 PM Firstly, why must they die?
Secondly, I'd think the manner of their dying depends upon the group, and how they feel about having the story of their characters being told for them.

Personally, as a player (though that role's getting rarer for me), I would much rather role-play the last battle, as very little says more about a character then how he/she reacts to overwhelming odds. That said, I (now as a DM) would give them a half-fighting chance of survival, and don't be too shocked if they survive. One of my previous campaigns I brought to a close with an encounter 6 levels above them (I know. Practically murder). They managed to kill off the Balor and his army of lessor demons with only one death. As an alternative to having the party just die off as planned, I then stated that they retired.
Ryvin
03-08-05, 02:42 PM Well, just to make sure it's clear, you do realizing this is what everyone refers to as "railroading" the players, right? If the players have no choice but are going to end up dead on the plane of shadow, then you're railroading them down a particular path that you've chosen, and no matter what actions or decisions the characters make can change that. I'm not meaning this as a criticism, however you and your players want to play your game is up to you. Just wanted to make sure you were aware because I know in my experience as a newbie DM it can be hard to tell at first, cause it sounds like it will make "a really cool story".

That aside, decide what you think will be your strongest route as a DM. Are you good with the descriptive text and have a group that enjoys listening to the story unfold just as much as rolling the dice? Or are your players more action oriented, liking to kill every bad-guy in sight?

If you go for the fight option, I'd defintely consider not making it a matter of infinate foes. If they can kill a couple of them, but they just keep coming, it might seem tedious and feel a bit like a pointless battle to the players. Instead, throw something at them that will scare the crap out of them with the amount of damage it can do, to show just how ****** off Shar is with them. (i.e Shadow Dragon or something, not sure what level your PCs are).

However, you still might want to consider having the PC's have a choice in this. Maybe have the fight potentially winnable, or accept the fact that the PC's might escape, but give them a BIG incentive to end up on the Plane of Shadow anyways. Maybe an NPC that they care about or need the help of gets sucked there? If they haven't been plane-hopping yet, you can still have them believe that to be on the Plane of Shadow they must be dead. And they can always go unconious as they pass between the planes. I normally find that if you throw a good hook at the PC's, they'll go along with what your hoping, rather then forcing them into it.

Hope that helped at least remotely.
Uratoh
03-08-05, 02:52 PM They won't actually die, it will be more of a cinematic 'death' (wherein even if they somehow get to -37ish they wont DIE but will be semi conscious and able to barely see the figures that grab them and take them off...). basic plot flow:

PCs fight through the temple
PCs defeat the evil cleric in the inner sanctum
Shar's image appears before the PCs, and taunts them, saying she's finally going to be rid of them (theyve had conflict before...). The group is then sent into the Plane of Shadow against their will, and finds themselves surrounded by Nightwalkers (or similar denizens)
PCs fight valiently but ultimately succumb to fatigue, sheer HP loss, etc
PCs wake up to find themselves in a camp, established by a group of heroes from a previous war who were thought dead after chasing a villian through an unstable gate. The villian later resurfaced, leading everyone to believe the group dead.
PenderGrass
03-08-05, 03:39 PM If this is a new game you are starting tomorrow (with no previous history what-so-ever), then you can just read them that description to start them off. Of course, making it a little more exciting in the telling and so forth. This is a perfectly fine way to start a new game.

But, if you are running an already established game, you are robbing your Players with the ability to make their own decisions by the layout you are presenting. Especially by making statements like:
PCs fight valiently but ultimately succumb to fatigue, sheer HP loss, etc
Granted, you can make things very difficult so as to be seemingly "unwinnable" - but, never underestimate a Player with a cornered PC. They will do the most amazing things - just because they can.

It would be better if you changed the layout for the game in this way:

"PCs fight valiently but ultimately succumb to fatigue, sheer HP loss, etc -if they do not succumb, then they will be found by the group of heros from a previous war."

This way you are preparing yourself for the chance, no matter how slim, that your Players may go a different way then you are currently thinking.

I would also make sure that you set a limit on the number of Shadows/Shadow-Type creatures you are going to unleash on them. If it is limitless, then why are the previous heros not always surrounded by them? This is how you keep the fantastical believable. Plus, if you ever have someone that has issue with it, you can always pull them aside and show them enough of your game notes that you are not just yanking stuff out of your a** because you think it is "cool."

Allowing the Players options is the only way to go after the first intro for a campaign (note the difference between an Intro for a Campaign Start and the Intro for the start of an Adventure in an already established Campaign).

:dragon:

****
Uratoh
03-08-05, 03:44 PM I actually have a reason why the previous heroes arent always surrounded by em...the wizard in the group created an item specificly designed to ward off creatures of shadow. basiclly creates a bubble of 'daylight' that keeps them at bay. Though yeah, I suppose it would be more fun if the pcs CAN win and get some praise from the older heroes (as well as some well-deserved healing).
PenderGrass
03-08-05, 03:58 PM I actually have a reason why the previous heroes arent always surrounded by em...the wizard in the group created an item specificly designed to ward off creatures of shadow. basiclly creates a bubble of 'daylight' that keeps them at bay. Though yeah, I suppose it would be more fun if the pcs CAN win and get some praise from the older heroes (as well as some well-deserved healing).
Even then, at the edge of the "bubble" you would still have an infinitely huge swarm of shadow-things, waiting for it to collapse.

What you could do is have the unending swarm surrounding the bubble. Plop the PCs down near enough to the "bubble" to see it - but make it "impossibly" hard for them to get there - who knows, they may even get there on their own (which would be kinda cool for them to come stumbling into the sphere on the edge of death) - so, even if they don't make it, you can say that the old hero group is investigating the ruckus.

Either way, the PCs should not be locked into losing - all possibilities (even those you don't think of) should still be allowed.

For example, I have designed more than one trap with no set method of overcoming it. I let the Players figure a way out and it is always a nice surprise when they do.

:dragon:

****
Uratoh
03-08-05, 04:07 PM I should also add when I said infinite I didnt mean TRUELY infinite, I meant infinite in the sense of 'Shar forced a large concentration of them to this one spot' type of infinite, ergo 'infinite in terms of the PCs killing them all'. it was also why the other group would notice this...the massing of them. Though ya, giving them a chance would be good...especially pushing them twords the magical bubble of happiness...maybe more give them the distinct impression that it IS dangerous to be here, even for the old heroes etc...
Alcari Ambaron
03-08-05, 04:41 PM what i'd do is this:

The shadows are already massing around the bubble, which they are always doing, in a Dawn of the Dead-like-way.
The PC's are dropped at some distance from the bubble, but they should still be able to see that it's dafe in there.

They then get attacked by shadows, first a few, but increasingly greater numbers swarm them. From now on four thing can happpen:
1) They make a stand and die, but get saved at the last moment by the heroes
2) They make a stand and live through the large wave (unlikely)
3) A wild dash towards the Bubble of light which they survive
4) A wild dash where they are about to die, but get saved from (un)death by the heroes.

but thats just how i would play it.
Shard Avengard
03-08-05, 05:15 PM oh this is easy....

Give ema fight, then bring out the shadows.... the PC's will fall back into a protective huddle. (predictable little things they are).

Then tell them:
"as you stay close together in the protective light, the shadows swarm around your barrier blocking any view beyond.

Their collective swarm is nothing but a black writhing void at the edge of your barrier.

As you look for any signs of an opening, a sinister face appears among the black mass. And with a wry smile draws forth a breath and exhales in your direction...

Your protective light, flickers once....twice.... then goes out....

You feel pain, then weightlessness, then numb, just before you slip into death."

Then have em wake up where ever...

they get a desperate battle they can be proud of, and you get em by the ears... win win.
LordSin
03-08-05, 05:39 PM Let 'em fight one last, grand battle. A cinematic death is always a good way to go.
Ibbins
03-08-05, 05:41 PM Cinematics are the equivalent to blatant railroading. Let them fight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 03-08-05, 02:14 PM	In the game I'm running tomorrow, the PCs will go face a priest of Shar in a temple, and once beating him, Shar will banish them into the Plane of Shadow, where they'll be 'killed'. essentially they'll be set upon by Nightshades and knocked unconscious, only to wake up in a camp in the PoS with a couple people debating what to do with them...basicly, I need tips on how to run the 'death' bit. do I let them fight it out in a battle they cant win (due to infinite foes) or just describe what happens, etc?
Rock_Slice 03-08-05, 02:37 PM	Firstly, why must they die? Secondly, I'd think the manner of their dying depends upon the group, and how they feel about having the story of their characters being told for them. Personally, as a player (though that role's getting rarer for me), I would much rather role-play the last battle, as very little says more about a character then how he/she reacts to overwhelming odds. That said, I (now as a DM) would give them a half-fighting chance of survival, and don't be too shocked if they survive. One of my previous campaigns I brought to a close with an encounter 6 levels above them (I know. Practically murder). They managed to kill off the Balor and his army of lessor demons with only one death. As an alternative to having the party just die off as planned, I then stated that they retired.
Ryvin 03-08-05, 02:42 PM	Well, just to make sure it's clear, you do realizing this is what everyone refers to as "railroading" the players, right? If the players have no choice but are going to end up dead on the plane of shadow, then you're railroading them down a particular path that you've chosen, and no matter what actions or decisions the characters make can change that. I'm not meaning this as a criticism, however you and your players want to play your game is up to you. Just wanted to make sure you were aware because I know in my experience as a newbie DM it can be hard to tell at first, cause it sounds like it will make "a really cool story". That aside, decide what you think will be your strongest route as a DM. Are you good with the descriptive text and have a group that enjoys listening to the story unfold just as much as rolling the dice? Or are your players more action oriented, liking to kill every bad-guy in sight? If you go for the fight option, I'd defintely consider not making it a matter of infinate foes. If they can kill a couple of them, but they just keep coming, it might seem tedious and feel a bit like a pointless battle to the players. Instead, throw something at them that will scare the crap out of them with the amount of damage it can do, to show just how ****** off Shar is with them. (i.e Shadow Dragon or something, not sure what level your PCs are). However, you still might want to consider having the PC's have a choice in this. Maybe have the fight potentially winnable, or accept the fact that the PC's might escape, but give them a BIG incentive to end up on the Plane of Shadow anyways. Maybe an NPC that they care about or need the help of gets sucked there? If they haven't been plane-hopping yet, you can still have them believe that to be on the Plane of Shadow they must be dead. And they can always go unconious as they pass between the planes. I normally find that if you throw a good hook at the PC's, they'll go along with what your hoping, rather then forcing them into it. Hope that helped at least remotely.
Uratoh 03-08-05, 02:52 PM	They won't actually die, it will be more of a cinematic 'death' (wherein even if they somehow get to -37ish they wont DIE but will be semi conscious and able to barely see the figures that grab them and take them off...). basic plot flow: PCs fight through the temple PCs defeat the evil cleric in the inner sanctum Shar's image appears before the PCs, and taunts them, saying she's finally going to be rid of them (theyve had conflict before...). The group is then sent into the Plane of Shadow against their will, and finds themselves surrounded by Nightwalkers (or similar denizens) PCs fight valiently but ultimately succumb to fatigue, sheer HP loss, etc PCs wake up to find themselves in a camp, established by a group of heroes from a previous war who were thought dead after chasing a villian through an unstable gate. The villian later resurfaced, leading everyone to believe the group dead.
PenderGrass 03-08-05, 03:39 PM	If this is a new game you are starting tomorrow (with no previous history what-so-ever), then you can just read them that description to start them off. Of course, making it a little more exciting in the telling and so forth. This is a perfectly fine way to start a new game. But, if you are running an already established game, you are robbing your Players with the ability to make their own decisions by the layout you are presenting. Especially by making statements like: PCs fight valiently but ultimately succumb to fatigue, sheer HP loss, etc Granted, you can make things very difficult so as to be seemingly "unwinnable" - but, never underestimate a Player with a cornered PC. They will do the most amazing things - just because they can. It would be better if you changed the layout for the game in this way: "PCs fight valiently but ultimately succumb to fatigue, sheer HP loss, etc -if they do not succumb, then they will be found by the group of heros from a previous war." This way you are preparing yourself for the chance, no matter how slim, that your Players may go a different way then you are currently thinking. I would also make sure that you set a limit on the number of Shadows/Shadow-Type creatures you are going to unleash on them. If it is limitless, then why are the previous heros not always surrounded by them? This is how you keep the fantastical believable. Plus, if you ever have someone that has issue with it, you can always pull them aside and show them enough of your game notes that you are not just yanking stuff out of your a because you think it is "cool." Allowing the Players options is the only way to go after the first intro for a campaign (note the difference between an Intro for a Campaign Start and the Intro for the start of an Adventure in an already established Campaign). :dragon: **
Uratoh 03-08-05, 03:44 PM	I actually have a reason why the previous heroes arent always surrounded by em...the wizard in the group created an item specificly designed to ward off creatures of shadow. basiclly creates a bubble of 'daylight' that keeps them at bay. Though yeah, I suppose it would be more fun if the pcs CAN win and get some praise from the older heroes (as well as some well-deserved healing).
PenderGrass 03-08-05, 03:58 PM	I actually have a reason why the previous heroes arent always surrounded by em...the wizard in the group created an item specificly designed to ward off creatures of shadow. basiclly creates a bubble of 'daylight' that keeps them at bay. Though yeah, I suppose it would be more fun if the pcs CAN win and get some praise from the older heroes (as well as some well-deserved healing). Even then, at the edge of the "bubble" you would still have an infinitely huge swarm of shadow-things, waiting for it to collapse. What you could do is have the unending swarm surrounding the bubble. Plop the PCs down near enough to the "bubble" to see it - but make it "impossibly" hard for them to get there - who knows, they may even get there on their own (which would be kinda cool for them to come stumbling into the sphere on the edge of death) - so, even if they don't make it, you can say that the old hero group is investigating the ruckus. Either way, the PCs should not be locked into losing - all possibilities (even those you don't think of) should still be allowed. For example, I have designed more than one trap with no set method of overcoming it. I let the Players figure a way out and it is always a nice surprise when they do. :dragon: ****
Uratoh 03-08-05, 04:07 PM	I should also add when I said infinite I didnt mean TRUELY infinite, I meant infinite in the sense of 'Shar forced a large concentration of them to this one spot' type of infinite, ergo 'infinite in terms of the PCs killing them all'. it was also why the other group would notice this...the massing of them. Though ya, giving them a chance would be good...especially pushing them twords the magical bubble of happiness...maybe more give them the distinct impression that it IS dangerous to be here, even for the old heroes etc...
Alcari Ambaron 03-08-05, 04:41 PM	what i'd do is this: The shadows are already massing around the bubble, which they are always doing, in a Dawn of the Dead-like-way. The PC's are dropped at some distance from the bubble, but they should still be able to see that it's dafe in there. They then get attacked by shadows, first a few, but increasingly greater numbers swarm them. From now on four thing can happpen: 1) They make a stand and die, but get saved at the last moment by the heroes 2) They make a stand and live through the large wave (unlikely) 3) A wild dash towards the Bubble of light which they survive 4) A wild dash where they are about to die, but get saved from (un)death by the heroes. but thats just how i would play it.
Shard Avengard 03-08-05, 05:15 PM	oh this is easy.... Give ema fight, then bring out the shadows.... the PC's will fall back into a protective huddle. (predictable little things they are). Then tell them: "as you stay close together in the protective light, the shadows swarm around your barrier blocking any view beyond. Their collective swarm is nothing but a black writhing void at the edge of your barrier. As you look for any signs of an opening, a sinister face appears among the black mass. And with a wry smile draws forth a breath and exhales in your direction... Your protective light, flickers once....twice.... then goes out.... You feel pain, then weightlessness, then numb, just before you slip into death." Then have em wake up where ever... they get a desperate battle they can be proud of, and you get em by the ears... win win.
LordSin 03-08-05, 05:39 PM	Let 'em fight one last, grand battle. A cinematic death is always a good way to go.
Ibbins 03-08-05, 05:41 PM	Cinematics are the equivalent to blatant railroading. Let them fight.