Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raygenh 09-27-06, 05:08 AM	I`m fairly inexperienced with altering or inventing rules, but I thought I`d give this a try because it bugs me now and then. I want to make a rule that covers something I don`t feel is done well in D&D, that is when someone is completely unaware of his attacker. The flatfooted rule is certainly a hefty penalty for many characters, but for some (particularly ones that rely almost solely on heavy armor) it changes the stakes little unless the attacker happens to be a rogue. However, realistically (and I do try to introduce SOME realism into combat in order to make it more dramatic) if your victim really has no clue you`re about to stab/slash/bash him senseless, you can basically just hit him anywhere you want and you are almost guaranteed to kill or give him a serious injury at least. Therefore I propose that there be a category of unawareness beyond flat-footed (I will use a working name for it: offguard) that entitles any attacker to a hefty bonus on his attack roll and an automatic critical hit (which, since I use vitality points, is quite lethal). Of course sneak attack would also be applied. The difference between "offguard" and standard flat-footed would be this: Flat-footed: Although unaware of his attacker or where he is being attacked from, the person is still at least somewhat in a position of combat readiness. This means they should be at least keeping their wits about them for any threat, which means that for example a fighter exploring a dungeon who, although he might not know specifically that there is a cloaker about to claw him from behind, he is doing his very best to detect any danger. He is aware that he is in a dangerous area and is thus better able to react when he hears the cloaker slash at him a second or two before the blow connects. Normal flat-footed rules apply. Offguard: Not only is the attacker completely unaware of his attacker, he is not in any position of readiness for combat. He is completely unprepared to react to anything that should attack him. An example would be a ranger who is sitting down at a table enjoying a meal and chatting happily with friends. Not only does he not know the waiter behind him is actually a doppelganger assasin, even if he heard the enemy draw his dagger there is no way he could react fast enough to rise from his seat and defend himself in any way. When the doppelganger attacks, he can basically just stick his dagger in the ranger`s throat. All of this assumes that no one at the table notices the doppelganger draw his weapon and shouts a warning, but given that the ranger is totally unprepared for the attack, the doppelganger gets an automatic critical hit, which under vitality rules could easily kill the ranger if the doppelganger is at all a worthy foe. Basically the reason why I thought this up is so situations like this don`t happen in my game: (To the player playing the rogue PC) "Under the effect of the invisibility spell, you follow the necromancer as she prepares for bed. She is sitting in front of a mirror, admiring her beauty which she stole from other women with her dark magic. She is totally unaware of you. Player: I stab her with my +3 shortsword (which is already drawn) *Various dice are rolled, damage isn`t sufficient to kill the necromancer DM: Because you rolled a lot of 1s on your sneak attack, your character for some reason didn`t manage to hit the throat or any other lethal spot... for some reason you missed and stabbed her shoulder blade or something and she didn`t die even though she was sitting motionless in front of you and you`re an 11th level rogue with enough know-how to stick a knife in someone`s throat.. she turns around and you two have to fight now... you can`t pull off any more sneak-attacks either... cause your invisibility spell is gone.." To me, the above scene stretches the players` suspension of disbelief a little too far, so I thought this rule up as a solution. Under this rule, combined with vitality, the automatic critical hit would almost definetely take out the necromancer or leave her with 1 or 2 wound points tops. I`m aware there are probably a number of problems with this variant... and I have by no means ironed out the wrinkles so I post this in the hopes that someone with more experience can make some suggestions. Any thoughts?
MinusInnocence 09-27-06, 05:45 AM	How about you just rule that if you are not aware of your attacker, you are considered Helpless regarding attacks from him? This means something very specific in D&D v3.5; there are a variety of consequences, among them being that the Helpless quality makes you eligible for Coup de Grace. I think that is WAY overboard... the game is not meant to simulate real combat situations, it's basically about superheroes. I mean did you know that even SLEEPING CHARACTERS are entitled to Reflex saves under the Core rules? How is that reasonable? Sure, they're treated as being Dex 0 but that's only a -5 penalty.
Raygenh 09-27-06, 05:57 AM	Well, no matter how much you tinker with the rules of a game, it is completely impossible to simulate the intricacies of combat completely. However, situations like the one I`ve mentioned have come up all the time in my games (not only for rogues, even for fighters and such) and there is nothing remotely close to a plausible explanation. Although D&D is a game about superheroes, I still think they should follow the limits of reasonable assumptions about physiology. If someone sticks a dagger in your eye and out through the skull, you are dead, no matter what numbers are on your character sheet. As for the sleeping example I think that`s stupid and would never allow it in my campaign. I suppose you`re right that this might all be resolved by using the helpless rule though. My only issue is that it should not take a full six seconds for an experienced warrior to insert his broadsword into your skull, aka it would be a standard action not a full-round.
Weaponbreaker 09-27-06, 07:22 AM	Ok I agree that the rules for flat footed may seem a little light when compared but remember, this is a system where magic is involved. Sure that ranger and necro might not be able to react to the initial attack but they might have had that feeling of being watched all night and when the blade touches skin they move to see what it is. I want you make a cardboard knife and try to 'stab' an RPGin friend to see how hard it is to actually place a blade where you want when you want with out him reacting a little bit. I work in a corrections facility and while many people get 'shanked' (esentially a sneak attack) in most cases it takes 5-10 stabs to hit the right spot to ensure death and only when they have time to stab 30-40 times are they to able to ensure death to their victim. Usualy they have friend grapple and make the victim helpless then they have no fear of the victim fighting back. The "Surprise Round" and flat footed work well, you will just make everybody in your games want to be rogue/warlock so they walk around invisible and do nothing but sneak attacks as you might just break the game, especially since you use the vitality system.
Aeromus 09-27-06, 07:58 AM	Flat-Footed is when you don't react fast enough to a danger you either didn't know was coming, or you react slow to danger you knew was coming. What you're suggesting is just easily handled with a circumstance bonus. +2 to hit, for being "invisible/hidden/completely unaware" gets to auto-win initiative. Your rule is just no good. Sorry.
Raygenh 09-27-06, 08:20 AM	In response to Weaponbreaker: You make a very good point... I don`t want to argue with you because clearly you know more about this than I do... but I still can`t see how one fighter with a broadsword in hand can`t manage to deliver a fatal or damn painful blow to another one who is facing the other way, with sword and shield not at the ready, and under the impression that the thing behind him is a lampost (through an illusion spell). You are definetely right about the rogue/warlock combo being way overpowered though... even just a rogue becomes way too lethal... Maybe I`ll assign an additional -2 penalty to AC (so even a character who depends solely on armor is easier to hit while flat-footed) and also rule that a rogue rolls sneak attack damage normally, but if the result is lower than average for that number of d6s than the average result is used instead. Again, there are probably a number of problems with this as well, so feel free to criticize this/tear it to pieces.
Raygenh 09-27-06, 08:25 AM	Flat-Footed is when you don't react fast enough to a danger you either didn't know was coming, or you react slow to danger you knew was coming. What you're suggesting is just easily handled with a circumstance bonus. +2 to hit, for being "invisible/hidden/completely unaware" gets to auto-win initiative. Your rule is just no good. Sorry. Maybe my rule is no good, in fact, it definetely is no good. But what you suggest is no good either. What I need is a substantial guarantee of a serious bonus to damage if someone is attacked while completely unprepared, whether or not they are being attacked by someone with sneak attack. In other words, not only should a fighter be more likely to hit his opponent if they are unaware, he should do a lot more damage if he does and the foe was totally unaware. I know my rule is dysfunctional, but if anyone has some good ideas, please enlighten me.
Weaponbreaker 09-27-06, 08:50 AM	You are definetely right about the rogue/warlock combo being way overpowered though... even just a rogue becomes way too lethal... Maybe I`ll assign an additional -2 penalty to AC (so even a character who depends solely on armor is easier to hit while flat-footed) and also rule that a rogue rolls sneak attack damage normally, but if the result is lower than average for that number of d6s than the average result is used instead. Again, there are probably a number of problems with this as well, so feel free to criticize this/tear it to pieces. Both suggestions are reasonable and well within the guidelines adding or subtracting a number due to circumstance is always better than a new rule as (hopefully) most new rules spend a weeks or sessions in R&D to avoid making 'broken' aspects. Although it happens a lot. Also you might to find a good feat tree for sneak attacks so that a rogue who has spent all his efforts to sneak attack like a master can around 15-18th level gain a new feat that allows him and extra attack or doubled sneak dice or max sneak dice or other kewl feat that lets a high level rogue just plain ole put the hurt down on an attack made on an enemy that is unaware of his presence.
Raygenh 09-27-06, 09:18 AM	That feat tree might be a really good idea... It would solve another problem my players sometimes have... unless you`ve bought lots of sourcebooks (which I haven`t really) good feats for rogues are few. I think my suggestions seem alright... but I want to give some kind of damage bonus to a non-rogue character. Something substantial, but not lethal (your description of shanking seems to make sense, upon further reflection). Any ideas whatsoever are welcome.
Inigo Carmine 09-27-06, 09:59 AM	If someone sticks a dagger in your eye and out through the skull, you are dead, no matter what numbers are on your character sheet. I think one problem you might be having is your giving a description to something before all of the results are in. Yes, a dagger through the brain is usually lethal, but unless you actually did the damage to kill them, your dagger didn't go through their brain. You don't get to describe the way your attack works before it hapens anymore than you can say "I charge the ancient red dragon, deftly dodging all of his attacks. I leap into the air and plant my spear through its eyesocket and into it's brain" in the middle of combat with the dragon. The fact that the target doesn't know you're there doesn't matter, though you do get large mechanical bonuses to help you succeed at what you're trying to do. Remeber that unless helpless, the intended target can still move. They still have an effective 10 dexterity score for their AC (unless it's even less). They sway back and forth, they suddenly bring their arm up and scratch the back of their head, or turn to get something in that lower drawer on the left side of their desk. Last but not least, remember: your average person has 2 hp (10 con commoner). Your average fully trained soldier with combat experience has 4 hp (10 con warrior). Chances are you can kill these people without too much trouble if you sneak up behind them; especially if you're a rogue with sneak attack. When you start talking about people with a PC class, or multiple levels, these people are total badasses. They're no stranger to conflict. They know how to turn a poentially lethal blow into something less so, they can react to the slightest clues of an attack faster than most people. Maybe they heard the hiss of air as you stab with the dagger and take evasive action to throw off your mark just a little bit. And finally, despite all of this, even if you do manage to land a blow, remember that people sometimes walk away from situations you wouldn't think a person could survive. People have survived airplane crashes, skydiving when their parachute doesn't open, gunshot wounds to the head/brain, or even one and a half inch / 3ft long metal spikes run completely through one side of their brain to the other (Phineas Gage). The odds of putting your dagger through someone's throat and managing to miss every major artery/vein/etc are low, but so is rolling 5 1s for your sneak attack damage.
Raygenh 09-27-06, 11:45 AM	You`re right, and at this point any enthusiasm for my original idea I might have had has been ripped to shreds because it was a pretty stupid idea and I thank everyone in this thread for pointing out all that`s wrong with it. However, I still want to give not only attack bonuses but damage bonuses to everyone who is attacking an unaware opponent, not only rogues or characters with similar abilities. What I`m trying to figure out is how to make that reasonable, that is to say hopefully not too different from core rules. I`ve already established that I think an additional -2 penalty applies to AC if unaware of the attacker (plus the loss of Dex etc), and rogues can choose to take the average sneak attack damage for the d6s if they roll lower than average, but none of this gives a sufficient advantage to say a barbarian who is attacking a completely unprepared fighter in my book. Although you`re right about the "badass" bit, and that pairs especially well with the spirit of vitality points, I still feel a need to make stealthy attacks a greater advantage for even the non-roguish character than they are in the core rules. Basically, how much of a damage bonus is appropriate? Maybe the weapon damage roll is treated as maximum (only the weapon, bonus dice from flaming etc are rolled as normal)? Or is that too much?
Kradlo 09-27-06, 11:52 AM	The D&D combat system is an abstract system. The normal hit point system is intentionally abstract, as is the vitality point system from Unearthed Arcana. In reality, an experienced combat veteran (say, a 15th level fighter) won't survive a 10-story fall any better than a green recruit (1st level warrior). In the game, it's another matter. Is it realistic? Hardly. But it's one of the core principles in D&D, making combat an abstraction rather than fully detailed and "realistic." You can make more realistic combat systems that will more closely detail the actions in battle, but there are downsides to those systems. For one thing, the more detailed the system, the slower it moves. You can spend six hours figuring out a single combat of 10 melee rounds (I've seen it), and it won't make the game any better. The other downside is that it makes the characters more vulnerable, and thus less heroic. D&D is set up so that the heroes may get blooded and bashed around, but that they don't often die. In reality, a knife in the carotid artery will kill you in seconds regardless of your "class" or "level," but D&D heroes are larger than life and may survive an attack that would have killed a "lesser" being. Your ranger that has a doppleganger attack him from behind may be flat-footed, and thus denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, but he's far from helpless. There are any number of explanations as to how the abstraction could be described, but if he took a heavy hit from a sneak attack and survived, you could say that the blade deflected off a rib instead off piercing the heart. In any event, if the rogue that struck the necromancer failed to kill her with his attack from invisibility, the surprise round is over and it's time for initiative. The rogue's high Dex score (and hopefully Improved Initiative) will give him an edge there, and if he wins initiative, he can execute a full attack sequence while his target is still flat-footed, giving him sneak attacks for every strike. That ought to finish her off nicely. "The necromancer turns her head momentarily at a strange breeze, just as your blade thrusts for her throat. The blade tears through her flesh, causing blood to spill from the wound, but the edge narrowly misses the carotid artery or her jugular vein. As the veil of invisibility fades from you, revealing you to her fear-widened eyes, you go into a blur of motion, stabbing again and again into her abdomen, thrusting up into under her ribcage and piercing her heart. She slumps to the floor, dead."
Raygenh 09-27-06, 12:10 PM	Ok.. I think I`ve decided what I`ll do. My original idea was total garbage, but I think I`ll make the following alterations to make being flat-footed a little more dangerous: 1. A flat-footed character loses Dex bonus to AC etc, and suffers an additional -2 penalty to AC (this is so a character with no Dex bonus or anything else is still easier to hit if he doesn`t know what`s coming) 2. A rogue sneak attacking an unaware opponent rolls sneak attack damage normally, however, if the result falls below the average value his sneak attack should have (ex. 35 dmg for a 10d6 sneak attack) he may simply choose that value over what he rolled. This means that a really low damage sneak attack will never occur if the target was really unsuspecting. 3. Any character making an attack on an unaware opponent uses the maximum value for their weapon damage roll but not for bonus dice such as flaming weapons etc. This is to give bonus damage to everyone, not just rogues and other characters with stealthy abilities. If anyone thinks that the above are overpowered or really disruptive in some way, more attacks are welcome. I would really like to put this one to rest. The first two seem reasonable to me, the third I`m not quite sure, it might be too strong, especially at low levels. By the way, thanks to everyone who`s replied so far, it`s been more than helpful.
Cifer 09-27-06, 01:51 PM	1. A flat-footed character loses Dex bonus to AC etc, and suffers an additional -2 penalty to AC (this is so a character with no Dex bonus or anything else is still easier to hit if he doesn`t know what`s coming) You should, however, think about what a character with no dex usually represents: Someone who doesn't make real attempts to dodge attacks but rather relies on them going klonk somewhere in his several layers of metal. -2 sounds reasonable. 2. A rogue sneak attacking an unaware opponent rolls sneak attack damage normally, however, if the result falls below the average value his sneak attack should have (ex. 35 dmg for a 10d6 sneak attack) he may simply choose that value over what he rolled. This means that a really low damage sneak attack will never occur if the target was really unsuspecting. 3. Any character making an attack on an unaware opponent uses the maximum value for their weapon damage roll but not for bonus dice such as flaming weapons etc. This is to give bonus damage to everyone, not just rogues and other characters with stealthy abilities. You might go for a kind of "take 10" here: When a character truely has one or more rounds to set him up for a strike on an unaware character, he can elect to deliver an "average" blow. He tries nothing fancy, but goes for a sure hit that's going to hurt: If he hits, he deals exactly the average damage of his weapon, calculating in base weapon damage and sneak attack, but not magic stuff which is too random to be affected this way. However, he must say this in advance, thus foregoing his chance to potentially do more damage.
Malakai_Demonos 09-27-06, 02:15 PM	You do know that a coup-de-gras is a maximized critical hit. That means you deal the most damage you possibly can. I don't think sneak attack damage is maximized. But, can you you say pick to the face. Also, the person who eats the ton of damage has to make a save equal to it. So an average 11th level rogue sneakes up behind an average 15th level necromancer. Lets say the necro has a con of 14 and the rogue a str of 14, pretty common for people of these levels, maybe even too low. But, rogue uses a +1 pick to attack the necro. (1d6+4 (str and a half + magic) max and times 4) = 40 damage then add in 6d6 if sneak attack. And well, the necro is not going to make a fort save of 40+ Now, imagine a barbarian with a goliath great hammer (2d6 damage, and x4 crit)(3d6 for a large one) and his immense str score and you might start crying. There you go, no need to change the system. I once used this against my players. Some amphibian pirates borded their ship during the night and put everyone to the knife, just a common short sword. No one made their listen checks. :weep: Only a couple died, but they were ******.
Cifer 09-27-06, 02:20 PM	@Malakai You do realize that only helpless creatures can be couped? Helpless hereby means completely motionless and incapable of motion or more specifically: paralysed, sleeping or bound. Your players had every right to be "******" if they were not sleeping.
Weaponbreaker 09-27-06, 05:23 PM	I like your thinking on the last post and might add that to my current RHoD campaign. Makes things a little more deadly and makes characters WANT to spend points on listen, spot, and sense motive plus find new uses for those skills.
makeshiftwings 09-27-06, 09:19 PM	Raygenh, I'm sure you want people to stop arguing against your idea but I have to point a few more things out. First, as everyone said, D&D combat isn't supposed to be realistic; it's purposely designed so that combats take several rounds and give everyone a chance to recover and come back. So, trying to simulate reality is usually a bad idea, since if you start with this one instance "a sneaky rogue should be able to kill someone right away", then other players might start complaining, since realistically, getting hit with a greataxe five times should also kill you, as would getting struck by lightning, incinerated by a fireball, swallowed whole by a monster, falling a hundred feet onto a pit of spikes, etc. High-level characters are supposed to be unrealistically lucky and superheroic; they can get stabbed in the back ten times and just stand up and walk away. The second problem is that if you allow your PC rogue to do uber damage to NPC's, then NPC's should be allowed to do uber damage to the PC's. This will result in lots of angry players. If you make a system where an enemy rogue of the party's average CR has a really good chance of insta-killing nearly anyone in the party, then the game is less fun. The third problem, which ties in with the second, is that then you need to have all the players tell you when they're "standing around acting dumb with their weapons down and shields not ready". Any remotely tactical (or call it metagamey if you must) player is going to say "My character never does that. He's always waiting for an attack at any moment." Even if they don't, you'll get into arguments. The current rules are very straightforward on what happens when a player is surprised. If you as the DM start saying "No, this time you were REALLY REALLY surprised! You're dead!", they will of course claim "No, I was only normal-surprised! We're in a seedy part of town! Of course I wasn't being double-flatfooted! My character knew that inkeeper was sketchy looking! I was triple-looking at him, so I could only be single-flatfooted!", etc.
Raygenh 09-28-06, 02:24 AM	Ok. It seems like everything checks out. All three alterations seem to be good to go. A slight change to #3 would be the character rolls weapon damage, and then can choose between that or the average, rather than just getting the maximum. This eliminates the possibility for a really soft hit despite having such a great advantage, but isn`t way too strong at low levels. I think instead of having two categories of surprised I think I`ll just alter the rules for flat-footed. This would prevent arguments from breaking out, like the ones makeshiftwings described about whether the party or character was "surprised" or "really, really surprised", which would be tiresome to say the least. All of this does make the mundane sense motive, spot, and listen checks more valuable because they can of course be used at virtually any time where as magic items or spells like detect invisibility etc usually require a conscious choice and the frequency of their use is limited. I always like shifting some more power to the characters themselves rather than their equipment, and this does that somewhat. The only drawback I can see is it might promote some kind of paranoia among PCs who will now suspect every commoner in the market might be an assasin and know that even inferior foes can do a number on their health and so they would be constantly saying "I check out this guy, and look at the one over there, I back up against a building and slide against the wall slowly, looking in all directions constantly!". Overall though, I don`t think this will happen unless as a DM you choose to have the PCs constantly be attacked while unaware (while they`re celebrating their last victory over elven wine, while the two wizards are playing chess, while the fighter is polishing his armor), which gets annoying no matter what set of rules you play with. If you instead use it now and then to heighten suspense/drama etc or to reward a fighter PC who manages to sneak up on your evil cleric BBEG then I think this rule will be quite functional. As long as it isn`t exploited all the time, I don`t think players are going to want to play out their characters constant checks for danger anymore than you do.