Big Bad Balor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Big Bad Balor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sergikins
09-25-05, 08:02 PM My players stay out. Adam, Aaron, Josh, and blake. out
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Ok, now that my privacy is ensured :) I have a little problem
Currently, my heros are staying at an abandoned bugbear camp in a undergroud tunnel. Most, if not all of the enemies this story arc have been undead. They will continue through the tunnel next campaign.

Now, after some inspiration from LoTR, I decided to have some huge enemy, like the balor chase them down the hallway, which is 20ft wide. I'm having problems finding the following
1) A large enoguh base creature that can turn into a zombie
2) A formidable zombie opponent.
3) Intimidating enough to send my players packing down the hallway. (They just turned level four)

Anway, I looked at zombie umber hulk. Not intimidating enough. I already threw a zombie dragon at them earlier. A huge horde of undead is boring. They already ran into those.

Essentially, Does anyone know a formidiable, tough creature that can turn into a (hopefully gargantuan zombie) zombie? I contemplated making a huge zombified t-rex, that could be freaky, but I'm afraid the players will stand and deliver instead of running. (which is what I'm aiming for.)
Super_Demolition_Christ
09-25-05, 08:07 PM um, how strong are they. Any sane person under lvl 20 will **** their pants in an effort to lubricate their legs enough so that they can run with their oversized thighs (built from to much easy encounters, and to much beer) upon seeing a Nightstalker

Or a Zombie Tarrasque(cuss the god of death felt the world needed the tarrasque a little longer)

Or a Zombie T-Rex.

How bout a Zombie Hydra, that way you can alter the CR by just adding heads
Razaiel
09-25-05, 08:08 PM Technically, according to the rules anyway, a creature can only be turned into a zombie if it has 10 or less racial HD because its HD are doubled upon becoming a zombie. However, since you are the DM, you can make any creature into a zombie. Anyway, why make it a zombie, why not a skeleton, they can take full-round actions and are just better overall (IMHO). Make a huge red dragon skeleton that is intelligent (use the Awaken Undead spell from BoVD so that it has skill points and feats and will fight like an intelligent creature. Just a thought. If they're level 4, a huge red dragon skeleton should be enough of a threat to cause them to run away screaming. And if they don't, they will probably die.
Josheva
09-25-05, 10:22 PM How about zombie chimera? max CR for a zombie creature.

Zombified ettin might be interesting, also max CR

Gray Render zombie? only large size but its pretty bulky. Max CR again.

Eleven headed Pyrohydra is huge size and again max CR. Biggest of thes options so far.

You could zombify a remorhaz but it wouldn't be max CR. Its huge though.

Th problem with zombies is that the max CR you can get out of them is 6.

If I were you i would either go with the Zombified eleven headed pyro hydra or, if you're feeling ambitious, an Ogre mage Lich that instead of having a permanencied (?) fly spell had a permanencied (again ?) enlarge person.
Someone
09-25-05, 11:51 PM Well, how about a zombie balor? Yes, its incredibly silly. Especially when the thing explodes upon its destruction. Just wait for the players to ask "so why didn't it explode the first time?" or "why was there a zombie with a balor's vorpal sword?"
PlaidViking
09-26-05, 12:10 AM Undead and Balorish, sounds like Orcus. Consult the book of vile darkness and have your PCs draw up new characters.
WCH
09-26-05, 01:29 AM Technically, according to the rules anyway, a creature can only be turned into a zombie if it has 10 or less racial HD because its HD are doubled upon becoming a zombie. However, since you are the DM, you can make any creature into a zombie. Anyway, why make it a zombie, why not a skeleton, they can take full-round actions and are just better overall (IMHO). Make a huge red dragon skeleton that is intelligent (use the Awaken Undead spell from BoVD so that it has skill points and feats and will fight like an intelligent creature. Just a thought. If they're level 4, a huge red dragon skeleton should be enough of a threat to cause them to run away screaming. And if they don't, they will probably die.
Huh? Since when is there a hitdice limit of 20? :confused:
Jancarius
09-26-05, 03:24 AM To keep it from going epic, I think.
The_Elder
09-26-05, 04:28 AM Think Litch.......there are some intristing ideas in LM. like the Litchfend.

The:dice:Elder
Colmarr
09-26-05, 04:44 AM Uh, guys, the PCS are level four! A CR 20 zombie might be a little over the top...

I like the sound of the zombie Ettin. It's large and imposing, and perhaps looks nastier than it is.

As a zombie, it can only make one attack per round, negating the Ettin's superior two-weapon fighting ability. By the book it's CR 9, but given the preceding comment I think it's probably right on the threshold of CR 8.

That's a potential TPK against a 4th level party, but if they're smart they'll leg it (as intended). Just make sure you drop hints that they should.

The chamber is cluttered with debris and the assorted detritus of battle. In fact, the only thing missing are corpses. [Listen check] As you ponder that fact, you cannot help but notice a shuffling sound coming from beyond the massive doors set in the east wall.

Give the players a chance to declare their intent.

Before you can react, the massive doors rock on their hinges, splinters of decaying wood exploding into the room. The door rocks again, the strain echoing through the tomb. And then they can hold out no more. The third blows shatters the ancient wood from its hinges, toppling the door into the chamber. Through the shattered frame, a massive figure shambles into the room. Flesh weeps from its bones, massive tusks protruding through holes in the skin of its face. It carries a tree trunk in each putrescent hand, swinging them from side to side as it moves. Atop the giant's shoulders, two half-decayed heads swivel to scan the room. Undead eyes turn to study you. The creature pauses, and then raises one of its clubs..."

If I were a player, that would get me running, especially if we were low on healing, magic or hit points.
Jancarius
09-26-05, 05:03 AM Look, by the way I plan my encounters, a L4 party should be fighting Great Wrym Reds :)

Anyway, the ettin description there rocks.
Someone
09-26-05, 02:46 PM Uh, guys, the PCS are level four! A CR 20 zombie might be a little over the top...Oh, sorry, I was just getting a little carried away with the LotR "run!" sequence. Though zombies (with only a single move action) are horrible chasers. Though they don't give up easily... "Starsss...", anyone?
Fixxxer
09-26-05, 03:55 PM Oh, sorry, I was just getting a little carried away with the LotR "run!" sequence. Though zombies (with only a single move action) are horrible chasers.

Isn't there's a spell or feat or ability of some kind in LM that allows zombies to take full actions instead of them being reduced to standard actions? I seem to recall such.
Sergikins
09-26-05, 06:04 PM Ok, great ideas. keep them coming.

one thing. a character is epic once there HD = 21, not CR or ECL, correct?
The Almighty Dru
09-26-05, 07:25 PM The hulking corpse from Libris Mortis is like teh u3ber 1337 big undead. Can't recall much right now, but it's pretty big, and I remember reading something about "controlling one is a necromancer's dream" in there somewhere.

:evillaugh
Lady Jotaro
09-26-05, 09:20 PM Angel of Decay.
TheAscendant
09-26-05, 09:52 PM Uh, guys, the PCS are level four! A CR 20 zombie might be a little over the top...

I like the sound of the zombie Ettin. It's large and imposing, and perhaps looks nastier than it is.

As a zombie, it can only make one attack per round, negating the Ettin's superior two-weapon fighting ability. By the book it's CR 9, but given the preceding comment I think it's probably right on the threshold of CR 8.

That's a potential TPK against a 4th level party, but if they're smart they'll leg it (as intended). Just make sure you drop hints that they should.

The chamber is cluttered with debris and the assorted detritus of battle. In fact, the only thing missing are corpses. [Listen check] As you ponder that fact, you cannot help but notice a shuffling sound coming from beyond the massive doors set in the east wall.

Give the players a chance to declare their intent.

Before you can react, the massive doors rock on their hinges, splinters of decaying wood exploding into the room. The door rocks again, the strain echoing through the tomb. And then they can hold out no more. The third blows shatters the ancient wood from its hinges, toppling the door into the chamber. Through the shattered frame, a massive figure shambles into the room. Flesh weeps from its bones, massive tusks protruding through holes in the skin of its face. It carries a tree trunk in each putrescent hand, swinging them from side to side as it moves. Atop the giant's shoulders, two half-decayed heads swivel to scan the room. Undead eyes turn to study you. The creature pauses, and then raises one of its clubs..."

If I were a player, that would get me running, especially if we were low on healing, magic or hit points.

That was beautiful.
Matafleous
09-26-05, 10:36 PM One thought is inventing something entirely of your own. This sounds like a complicated process but its really not if you dont intend on having your players fight it. Tell them some wonderfully discriptive information like that given above and fill in any horrifying creature you wish instead. Not that the earlier discription fell in any way short of horrifying. Then when the players do decide to stand and fight it give them clues that they cant possibly win. It is not really even necessary to make stats for your creature. Using a creature similar to a balor as an example you could same something like this. "The cracks all along the massive iron gates have begun to glow crimson red. In a single moment a terrifying explosion ripes the gates off their hinges, sending them scattering through out the great hall. A black creature of nightmares steps through the archway. The creature must stoop it's flame wreathed body low to clear the arch. A massive set of fiery wings stretch from its back their length doubling his size. Even from this great distance his body is too hot to stand. The stone pillars nearest to him have begun to melt to the ground as he approaches" At this time if their still there then they most likely deserve to die but give them a fair chance. Lets just say that one of the players decides to fire an arrow towards the creature "You aim your bow and let loose a deadly arrow aimed straight for the creatues massive forehead. Before even getting within 20ft of the creature it immolates sending tinder scattering in all directions." or prehaps the fighter or noble paladin decide they can not let this horrible creature to continue to surrive "As your run towards the creature you watch as blisters for and then pop on your skin in a matter of seconds. Your plate mail armor has become so hot that it feels like its melting and searing itself into your very skin" and seriously if they have not decided to run yet. Let it eat them.
UmbraLux
09-26-05, 11:28 PM Consider a pseudonatural creature (Complete Arcane), whether you make it a zombie or not, the simple fact that it is nonstandard should make them pause to think...and maybe run. Remember, fear of the unknown is greater than fear of certain death.
Szat
09-26-05, 11:36 PM I vote Nightwalker. Have the party member's mainstay fighter stand up to the thing. Have the nightwalker then take the guys weapon and snap it in half. I'm pretty sure after that happens they'll run really fast.
Josheva
09-26-05, 11:39 PM Lol looks like we have some confusion going on here so please allow me to clear things up. There is a simple process to changing anything into a zombie that can be found in the players handbook. One step of the process, the changing of its hit dice, goes like this...
Hit Dice: Drop any hit dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of hit dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can't be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.
At this point let me point out that animate dead is the only non divine intervention way to create a zombie. Therefore, since no gods would have created this zombie, (at least I hope not at lvl 4) it can have no more racial hit dice than 10. Lets continue on to how to find the challenge rating.

Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice, as follows.
Hit Dice------Challenge Rating
...1/2....................1/8
....1......................1/4
....2......................1/2
....4.......................1
....6.......................2
..8-10.....................3
..12-14...................4
..15-16...................5
..18-20...................6
So now we can see that no zombie can have more hit dice than 20. We also see that a 20 hit dice zombie has a CR of 6. Finally, just for clarification, lets take a look at the advancement subtitle.

Advancement: As base creature but double Hit Dice (maximum 20), or -- if the base creature advances by character class.
When a zombie is created, all class level hit dice are negated, leaving only racial hit dice
All racial hit dice are doubled when creating a zombie
The maximum amount of hit dice a zombie can have is 20
A 20 hit dice zombie has a CR of 6

So now we can see that regardless of how big the creature is or how many hit dice it has, there is next to no chance of a TPK. In fact, it is quite possible for the characters to turn around and kill any zombie that exists (assuming no class level advancement) without even suffering a single casualty. Hope this helps, cheers!
Colmarr
09-27-05, 04:02 AM Josheva is correct about the CR calculation. A zombie ettin is CR 6. :cookie:

However, having said that, it is a CR 6 with 20d12 HD. In other words, it has 123 hp (including the bonus from Toughness). By way of comparison, the CR7 hill giant only has 102.

It also has a 10' reach melee attack of +17 (that does 2d6+7 damage), and an AC of 20 (after including the natural armour increase and Dex decrease).

Whilst it's not a likely TPK, I wouldn't say it's impossible. Having said that, there is a good reason why zombies are "horde" creatures in movies. Individually, they're simply too slow to pin down characters long enough to kill them.
Corvus Corax
09-27-05, 09:00 AM Anything undead with tentacles, think Cuthulu, would get me as a player to high tail it and run.
Jancarius
09-27-05, 02:29 PM Thus the pseudonatural template. The pseudonaturals are some scary stuff!
Sergikins
09-27-05, 06:47 PM Wow. I'm loving the ideas that are coming.

AS the campaign has been mostly undead, I handed out ten hide from undead potions. And Nerull is involved in this affair, so a larger than 20 HD zombie is possible. I'm thinking a creature with 33 HD is a very difficult challange, and if they foolishly squander their resources, they will have diffuculties with the following fights, one is with a basilisk, the next is a level 5 cleric with a wand of animate dead, and last one is a level 6 wizard with a level 4 fighter minion. They have nearly 20 potions of cure light wounds, so they should be fine. Oh. and there are three PCs. not four.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sergikins 09-25-05, 08:02 PM	My players stay out. Adam, Aaron, Josh, and blake. out . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . Ok, now that my privacy is ensured :) I have a little problem Currently, my heros are staying at an abandoned bugbear camp in a undergroud tunnel. Most, if not all of the enemies this story arc have been undead. They will continue through the tunnel next campaign. Now, after some inspiration from LoTR, I decided to have some huge enemy, like the balor chase them down the hallway, which is 20ft wide. I'm having problems finding the following 1) A large enoguh base creature that can turn into a zombie 2) A formidable zombie opponent. 3) Intimidating enough to send my players packing down the hallway. (They just turned level four) Anway, I looked at zombie umber hulk. Not intimidating enough. I already threw a zombie dragon at them earlier. A huge horde of undead is boring. They already ran into those. Essentially, Does anyone know a formidiable, tough creature that can turn into a (hopefully gargantuan zombie) zombie? I contemplated making a huge zombified t-rex, that could be freaky, but I'm afraid the players will stand and deliver instead of running. (which is what I'm aiming for.)
Super_Demolition_Christ 09-25-05, 08:07 PM	um, how strong are they. Any sane person under lvl 20 will **** their pants in an effort to lubricate their legs enough so that they can run with their oversized thighs (built from to much easy encounters, and to much beer) upon seeing a Nightstalker Or a Zombie Tarrasque(cuss the god of death felt the world needed the tarrasque a little longer) Or a Zombie T-Rex. How bout a Zombie Hydra, that way you can alter the CR by just adding heads
Razaiel 09-25-05, 08:08 PM	Technically, according to the rules anyway, a creature can only be turned into a zombie if it has 10 or less racial HD because its HD are doubled upon becoming a zombie. However, since you are the DM, you can make any creature into a zombie. Anyway, why make it a zombie, why not a skeleton, they can take full-round actions and are just better overall (IMHO). Make a huge red dragon skeleton that is intelligent (use the Awaken Undead spell from BoVD so that it has skill points and feats and will fight like an intelligent creature. Just a thought. If they're level 4, a huge red dragon skeleton should be enough of a threat to cause them to run away screaming. And if they don't, they will probably die.
Josheva 09-25-05, 10:22 PM	How about zombie chimera? max CR for a zombie creature. Zombified ettin might be interesting, also max CR Gray Render zombie? only large size but its pretty bulky. Max CR again. Eleven headed Pyrohydra is huge size and again max CR. Biggest of thes options so far. You could zombify a remorhaz but it wouldn't be max CR. Its huge though. Th problem with zombies is that the max CR you can get out of them is 6. If I were you i would either go with the Zombified eleven headed pyro hydra or, if you're feeling ambitious, an Ogre mage Lich that instead of having a permanencied (?) fly spell had a permanencied (again ?) enlarge person.
Someone 09-25-05, 11:51 PM	Well, how about a zombie balor? Yes, its incredibly silly. Especially when the thing explodes upon its destruction. Just wait for the players to ask "so why didn't it explode the first time?" or "why was there a zombie with a balor's vorpal sword?"
PlaidViking 09-26-05, 12:10 AM	Undead and Balorish, sounds like Orcus. Consult the book of vile darkness and have your PCs draw up new characters.
WCH 09-26-05, 01:29 AM	Technically, according to the rules anyway, a creature can only be turned into a zombie if it has 10 or less racial HD because its HD are doubled upon becoming a zombie. However, since you are the DM, you can make any creature into a zombie. Anyway, why make it a zombie, why not a skeleton, they can take full-round actions and are just better overall (IMHO). Make a huge red dragon skeleton that is intelligent (use the Awaken Undead spell from BoVD so that it has skill points and feats and will fight like an intelligent creature. Just a thought. If they're level 4, a huge red dragon skeleton should be enough of a threat to cause them to run away screaming. And if they don't, they will probably die. Huh? Since when is there a hitdice limit of 20? :confused:
Jancarius 09-26-05, 03:24 AM	To keep it from going epic, I think.
The_Elder 09-26-05, 04:28 AM	Think Litch.......there are some intristing ideas in LM. like the Litchfend. The:dice:Elder
Colmarr 09-26-05, 04:44 AM	Uh, guys, the PCS are level four! A CR 20 zombie might be a little over the top... I like the sound of the zombie Ettin. It's large and imposing, and perhaps looks nastier than it is. As a zombie, it can only make one attack per round, negating the Ettin's superior two-weapon fighting ability. By the book it's CR 9, but given the preceding comment I think it's probably right on the threshold of CR 8. That's a potential TPK against a 4th level party, but if they're smart they'll leg it (as intended). Just make sure you drop hints that they should. The chamber is cluttered with debris and the assorted detritus of battle. In fact, the only thing missing are corpses. [Listen check] As you ponder that fact, you cannot help but notice a shuffling sound coming from beyond the massive doors set in the east wall. Give the players a chance to declare their intent. Before you can react, the massive doors rock on their hinges, splinters of decaying wood exploding into the room. The door rocks again, the strain echoing through the tomb. And then they can hold out no more. The third blows shatters the ancient wood from its hinges, toppling the door into the chamber. Through the shattered frame, a massive figure shambles into the room. Flesh weeps from its bones, massive tusks protruding through holes in the skin of its face. It carries a tree trunk in each putrescent hand, swinging them from side to side as it moves. Atop the giant's shoulders, two half-decayed heads swivel to scan the room. Undead eyes turn to study you. The creature pauses, and then raises one of its clubs..." If I were a player, that would get me running, especially if we were low on healing, magic or hit points.
Jancarius 09-26-05, 05:03 AM	Look, by the way I plan my encounters, a L4 party should be fighting Great Wrym Reds :) Anyway, the ettin description there rocks.
Someone 09-26-05, 02:46 PM	Uh, guys, the PCS are level four! A CR 20 zombie might be a little over the top...Oh, sorry, I was just getting a little carried away with the LotR "run!" sequence. Though zombies (with only a single move action) are horrible chasers. Though they don't give up easily... "Starsss...", anyone?
Fixxxer 09-26-05, 03:55 PM	Oh, sorry, I was just getting a little carried away with the LotR "run!" sequence. Though zombies (with only a single move action) are horrible chasers. Isn't there's a spell or feat or ability of some kind in LM that allows zombies to take full actions instead of them being reduced to standard actions? I seem to recall such.
Sergikins 09-26-05, 06:04 PM	Ok, great ideas. keep them coming. one thing. a character is epic once there HD = 21, not CR or ECL, correct?
The Almighty Dru 09-26-05, 07:25 PM	The hulking corpse from Libris Mortis is like teh u3ber 1337 big undead. Can't recall much right now, but it's pretty big, and I remember reading something about "controlling one is a necromancer's dream" in there somewhere. :evillaugh
Lady Jotaro 09-26-05, 09:20 PM	Angel of Decay.
TheAscendant 09-26-05, 09:52 PM	Uh, guys, the PCS are level four! A CR 20 zombie might be a little over the top... I like the sound of the zombie Ettin. It's large and imposing, and perhaps looks nastier than it is. As a zombie, it can only make one attack per round, negating the Ettin's superior two-weapon fighting ability. By the book it's CR 9, but given the preceding comment I think it's probably right on the threshold of CR 8. That's a potential TPK against a 4th level party, but if they're smart they'll leg it (as intended). Just make sure you drop hints that they should. The chamber is cluttered with debris and the assorted detritus of battle. In fact, the only thing missing are corpses. [Listen check] As you ponder that fact, you cannot help but notice a shuffling sound coming from beyond the massive doors set in the east wall. Give the players a chance to declare their intent. Before you can react, the massive doors rock on their hinges, splinters of decaying wood exploding into the room. The door rocks again, the strain echoing through the tomb. And then they can hold out no more. The third blows shatters the ancient wood from its hinges, toppling the door into the chamber. Through the shattered frame, a massive figure shambles into the room. Flesh weeps from its bones, massive tusks protruding through holes in the skin of its face. It carries a tree trunk in each putrescent hand, swinging them from side to side as it moves. Atop the giant's shoulders, two half-decayed heads swivel to scan the room. Undead eyes turn to study you. The creature pauses, and then raises one of its clubs..." If I were a player, that would get me running, especially if we were low on healing, magic or hit points. That was beautiful.
Matafleous 09-26-05, 10:36 PM	One thought is inventing something entirely of your own. This sounds like a complicated process but its really not if you dont intend on having your players fight it. Tell them some wonderfully discriptive information like that given above and fill in any horrifying creature you wish instead. Not that the earlier discription fell in any way short of horrifying. Then when the players do decide to stand and fight it give them clues that they cant possibly win. It is not really even necessary to make stats for your creature. Using a creature similar to a balor as an example you could same something like this. "The cracks all along the massive iron gates have begun to glow crimson red. In a single moment a terrifying explosion ripes the gates off their hinges, sending them scattering through out the great hall. A black creature of nightmares steps through the archway. The creature must stoop it's flame wreathed body low to clear the arch. A massive set of fiery wings stretch from its back their length doubling his size. Even from this great distance his body is too hot to stand. The stone pillars nearest to him have begun to melt to the ground as he approaches" At this time if their still there then they most likely deserve to die but give them a fair chance. Lets just say that one of the players decides to fire an arrow towards the creature "You aim your bow and let loose a deadly arrow aimed straight for the creatues massive forehead. Before even getting within 20ft of the creature it immolates sending tinder scattering in all directions." or prehaps the fighter or noble paladin decide they can not let this horrible creature to continue to surrive "As your run towards the creature you watch as blisters for and then pop on your skin in a matter of seconds. Your plate mail armor has become so hot that it feels like its melting and searing itself into your very skin" and seriously if they have not decided to run yet. Let it eat them.
UmbraLux 09-26-05, 11:28 PM	Consider a pseudonatural creature (Complete Arcane), whether you make it a zombie or not, the simple fact that it is nonstandard should make them pause to think...and maybe run. Remember, fear of the unknown is greater than fear of certain death.
Szat 09-26-05, 11:36 PM	I vote Nightwalker. Have the party member's mainstay fighter stand up to the thing. Have the nightwalker then take the guys weapon and snap it in half. I'm pretty sure after that happens they'll run really fast.
Josheva 09-26-05, 11:39 PM	Lol looks like we have some confusion going on here so please allow me to clear things up. There is a simple process to changing anything into a zombie that can be found in the players handbook. One step of the process, the changing of its hit dice, goes like this... Hit Dice: Drop any hit dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of hit dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can't be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell. At this point let me point out that animate dead is the only non divine intervention way to create a zombie. Therefore, since no gods would have created this zombie, (at least I hope not at lvl 4) it can have no more racial hit dice than 10. Lets continue on to how to find the challenge rating. Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice, as follows. Hit Dice------Challenge Rating ...1/2....................1/8 ....1......................1/4 ....2......................1/2 ....4.......................1 ....6.......................2 ..8-10.....................3 ..12-14...................4 ..15-16...................5 ..18-20...................6 So now we can see that no zombie can have more hit dice than 20. We also see that a 20 hit dice zombie has a CR of 6. Finally, just for clarification, lets take a look at the advancement subtitle. Advancement: As base creature but double Hit Dice (maximum 20), or -- if the base creature advances by character class. When a zombie is created, all class level hit dice are negated, leaving only racial hit dice All racial hit dice are doubled when creating a zombie The maximum amount of hit dice a zombie can have is 20 A 20 hit dice zombie has a CR of 6 So now we can see that regardless of how big the creature is or how many hit dice it has, there is next to no chance of a TPK. In fact, it is quite possible for the characters to turn around and kill any zombie that exists (assuming no class level advancement) without even suffering a single casualty. Hope this helps, cheers!
Colmarr 09-27-05, 04:02 AM	Josheva is correct about the CR calculation. A zombie ettin is CR 6. :cookie: However, having said that, it is a CR 6 with 20d12 HD. In other words, it has 123 hp (including the bonus from Toughness). By way of comparison, the CR7 hill giant only has 102. It also has a 10' reach melee attack of +17 (that does 2d6+7 damage), and an AC of 20 (after including the natural armour increase and Dex decrease). Whilst it's not a likely TPK, I wouldn't say it's impossible. Having said that, there is a good reason why zombies are "horde" creatures in movies. Individually, they're simply too slow to pin down characters long enough to kill them.
Corvus Corax 09-27-05, 09:00 AM	Anything undead with tentacles, think Cuthulu, would get me as a player to high tail it and run.
Jancarius 09-27-05, 02:29 PM	Thus the pseudonatural template. The pseudonaturals are some scary stuff!
Sergikins 09-27-05, 06:47 PM	Wow. I'm loving the ideas that are coming. AS the campaign has been mostly undead, I handed out ten hide from undead potions. And Nerull is involved in this affair, so a larger than 20 HD zombie is possible. I'm thinking a creature with 33 HD is a very difficult challange, and if they foolishly squander their resources, they will have diffuculties with the following fights, one is with a basilisk, the next is a level 5 cleric with a wand of animate dead, and last one is a level 6 wizard with a level 4 fighter minion. They have nearly 20 potions of cure light wounds, so they should be fine. Oh. and there are three PCs. not four.