Big battles and multiple initiative [Archive] - Wizards Community

Big battles and multiple initiative [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Equalizer
10-10-06, 05:17 PM Alright, I run alot of games where there is alot of Initiative rolling for big battles and such. (At least 30 combatants more or less.) As an example:

Say a character is a low ranking Ranger in a party of scouts, that number in about 15-20. Let us say that he and his comrades run into a horde of orcs with around the same number, probably a bit more.

How would you prepare and run the battle? I just tend to focus on the PC, and just roll intitiatve for some of the surrounding allies and enemies, thus shortening the amount of rolling during the combat, and just describing the battle surrounding him before every new turn.

This method disturbs me, because rolling for just ten or 11 guys in the battle, wont make up for the whole of the combatants. Which could number from 40-50, with both allies and enemies of the PC. So what methods could be used for large scale battles like that, to determine the out come of the fight, without rolling for all 50 of the guys, while making it believable?

I am trying to make the combat shorter, so PCs don't have to wait on all those NPC rolls, including initiative, attacks, and some other misc. things that might happen in combat.

Please, give some good methods you guys use, or maybe some ideas that could help me out.
Burgundy Lotus
10-10-06, 07:16 PM For my group any creature with class levels gets their own initiative roll. Any group of basically identical monster manual monsters gets one roll for the entire group. A group of 20 kobolds with a sorcerer and a barbarian leader would only have three different initiative numbers, not 22. This works for our group.

Hope that's helpful.
Kradlo
10-10-06, 08:24 PM Admittedly, giving a group of creatures the same initiative every time does give them a slight tactical advantage, in that they're all acting at the same time, allowing for better coordination in battle. For the PCs to coordinate, they'd all have to delay to match the initiative of the member with the lowest initiative score.

But, from a practical standpoint, rolling and keeping track of 20+ initiative scores for the bad guys is a GM nightmare. Burgundy Lotus is right on track with his method, rolling for groups of baddies and classed individuals. I print up an initiative chart with counts from 30 to 1. When combat begins, I have the players roll their initiative and record it on the sheet, then add the bad guys. When someone chooses to delay or ready an action, it's easy to line through a name and write it at the new initiative score when the change is made.

It makes combat move smoothly and efficiently, and no one gets skipped.
Dragonsblood
10-10-06, 09:17 PM If you have a decent size collection of dice, one roll for 50 guys takes a few seconds. The only part where it gets messy is initiative. But this is easy to solve by just grouping NPCs up and having them act on the same initiative. So if you have 50 guys, roll 10 initiatives and group them up into 5s. PCs should always act on theirown initiative, obviously, as should major NPCs like the BBEG and leutenants. By grouping NPCs, you avoid the major tactical advantage of delayed coordination for the most part while still keeping the game practical.
Horatio Hornblower
10-10-06, 09:56 PM They should be in groups that fit with their tactics. Rolling one initiative per squad means they all move at the same time which is exactly what a squad should do.

The campaign I'm playing in has lots of big battles. Each PC gets a roll and each squad of orcs or goblins gets a roll. We can be up against 60 goblins, but they are divided into 5 or 6 squads. All the crossbowman are in one squad, all the shortswordsman are in one or two squads, etc. It's easier to work with and it encourages actual infantry tactics.
The Equalizer
10-11-06, 12:07 AM All of these are great suggestions. I like how they are all handled. Very good bits of wisdom that I could easily incorporate into any of my gaming sessions. As Kradlo stated, it is a nightmare. Very tediuos.

So handling the NPC bad guys is made much easier by grouping them up in tactical teams. Would it be the same for the friendly forces as well?

Thanks for the advice. Keep it up. I'd like to hear more of it.
skeeter_dan
10-11-06, 03:34 AM I often run massive battles and I group enemies and allies exactly as described in this thread. I put the ranged combatants, melee fighters, and spellcasters into their own initative groups, essentially assuming that squads would delay their own actions to work in tandem with their own group.
WishFish
10-11-06, 04:15 AM What do you think about rolling initiative for all the monsters before the session begins.
I mean, unless you have ad-hock adventures, you could know how an encounter will look like, how many and what kind of monsters will there be. So you roll d20 for each of the monster, add apropriate init modifier regarding his type and record that on the paper in the big "initiative list" together with their names/id's and then you sort that list.

Once the encounter takes place, only your player will have to roll initiative and you just insert them to the list.

If you use dry-erasable board for combat, you could mark each monster with number (as his ID) which corresponds to the number in your initiative list so you can easily track them.

So it could look like this:

INITIATIVE LIST:
===============

Initiative .............. Monster ID
26 ........................ 1 - Kbobld
25 ........................ 17 - Orc
23 ........................ 11 - Orc
22 ........................ 9 - Goblin
20 ........................ 12 - Orc
17 ........................ 4 - Kobold
etc.

--
Nom
10-11-06, 10:01 AM (1) Avoid running battles with many allies. A couple is OK, any more than that and just remove the allies and their enemies, focus on what the PC's are doing, and summarise the result of the other skirmishes later.

(2) Don't track initiative yourself. I always get one of my clued-in players to track initiative, and that works much better.
Frugal
10-11-06, 11:26 AM First, I'd suggest using initiative cards, or something similar, for tracking initiative, that'll really help in keeping the combat flowing. I haven't gone quite that far yet but I print off statblocks for all the creatures in a planned encounter (with all the feats and other customizations I may have made applied). My plan is to take this a step further and put them on separate cards (maybe just cutting up the statblocks). Then you just stack into init order and whenver a combatant comes up you have their statblock right in front of you. Someone delays? Pull out their card and pop it back in when they act.

A huge advantage to doing it this way is you always have the combatant's statblock right in front of you and you can really cut down on book shuffling (especially if you need more than 1 book) and cuts down on forgetting to apply bonuses or different equipment (oh right, those Kobolds are level 3 warriors and have light crossbows). And you also have these handy cards for writing down current HPs and any effects or conditions they're under (which can be a huge headache in a big combat).

As for determining initiative, how about doing a sort of averaged out method? There's 20 scouts? Great assume you rolled 1-20 (if they're all the same), good to go. For less than 20, I'd probably start in the middle and then add up and down from there. It's not going to be 100% accurate but it'll get you close and is way quicker than rolling them all and helps cut down on the crazy group tactics you can get if a whole group is on the same initiative.
Borne Of Hate
10-11-06, 02:13 PM I would suggest dividing them up based on similarity or even Initiative bonus.
Everyone with an initiative bonus of 3 goes on.... {rolls D20+3)

To expand on this a little bit more...

I also use tiny post-it notes stuck to the bottom of the baddies bases to record hit points. WOW was that the best move I have ever done for large scale battles.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Equalizer 10-10-06, 05:17 PM	Alright, I run alot of games where there is alot of Initiative rolling for big battles and such. (At least 30 combatants more or less.) As an example: Say a character is a low ranking Ranger in a party of scouts, that number in about 15-20. Let us say that he and his comrades run into a horde of orcs with around the same number, probably a bit more. How would you prepare and run the battle? I just tend to focus on the PC, and just roll intitiatve for some of the surrounding allies and enemies, thus shortening the amount of rolling during the combat, and just describing the battle surrounding him before every new turn. This method disturbs me, because rolling for just ten or 11 guys in the battle, wont make up for the whole of the combatants. Which could number from 40-50, with both allies and enemies of the PC. So what methods could be used for large scale battles like that, to determine the out come of the fight, without rolling for all 50 of the guys, while making it believable? I am trying to make the combat shorter, so PCs don't have to wait on all those NPC rolls, including initiative, attacks, and some other misc. things that might happen in combat. Please, give some good methods you guys use, or maybe some ideas that could help me out.
Burgundy Lotus 10-10-06, 07:16 PM	For my group any creature with class levels gets their own initiative roll. Any group of basically identical monster manual monsters gets one roll for the entire group. A group of 20 kobolds with a sorcerer and a barbarian leader would only have three different initiative numbers, not 22. This works for our group. Hope that's helpful.
Kradlo 10-10-06, 08:24 PM	Admittedly, giving a group of creatures the same initiative every time does give them a slight tactical advantage, in that they're all acting at the same time, allowing for better coordination in battle. For the PCs to coordinate, they'd all have to delay to match the initiative of the member with the lowest initiative score. But, from a practical standpoint, rolling and keeping track of 20+ initiative scores for the bad guys is a GM nightmare. Burgundy Lotus is right on track with his method, rolling for groups of baddies and classed individuals. I print up an initiative chart with counts from 30 to 1. When combat begins, I have the players roll their initiative and record it on the sheet, then add the bad guys. When someone chooses to delay or ready an action, it's easy to line through a name and write it at the new initiative score when the change is made. It makes combat move smoothly and efficiently, and no one gets skipped.
Dragonsblood 10-10-06, 09:17 PM	If you have a decent size collection of dice, one roll for 50 guys takes a few seconds. The only part where it gets messy is initiative. But this is easy to solve by just grouping NPCs up and having them act on the same initiative. So if you have 50 guys, roll 10 initiatives and group them up into 5s. PCs should always act on theirown initiative, obviously, as should major NPCs like the BBEG and leutenants. By grouping NPCs, you avoid the major tactical advantage of delayed coordination for the most part while still keeping the game practical.
Horatio Hornblower 10-10-06, 09:56 PM	They should be in groups that fit with their tactics. Rolling one initiative per squad means they all move at the same time which is exactly what a squad should do. The campaign I'm playing in has lots of big battles. Each PC gets a roll and each squad of orcs or goblins gets a roll. We can be up against 60 goblins, but they are divided into 5 or 6 squads. All the crossbowman are in one squad, all the shortswordsman are in one or two squads, etc. It's easier to work with and it encourages actual infantry tactics.
The Equalizer 10-11-06, 12:07 AM	All of these are great suggestions. I like how they are all handled. Very good bits of wisdom that I could easily incorporate into any of my gaming sessions. As Kradlo stated, it is a nightmare. Very tediuos. So handling the NPC bad guys is made much easier by grouping them up in tactical teams. Would it be the same for the friendly forces as well? Thanks for the advice. Keep it up. I'd like to hear more of it.
skeeter_dan 10-11-06, 03:34 AM	I often run massive battles and I group enemies and allies exactly as described in this thread. I put the ranged combatants, melee fighters, and spellcasters into their own initative groups, essentially assuming that squads would delay their own actions to work in tandem with their own group.
WishFish 10-11-06, 04:15 AM	What do you think about rolling initiative for all the monsters before the session begins. I mean, unless you have ad-hock adventures, you could know how an encounter will look like, how many and what kind of monsters will there be. So you roll d20 for each of the monster, add apropriate init modifier regarding his type and record that on the paper in the big "initiative list" together with their names/id's and then you sort that list. Once the encounter takes place, only your player will have to roll initiative and you just insert them to the list. If you use dry-erasable board for combat, you could mark each monster with number (as his ID) which corresponds to the number in your initiative list so you can easily track them. So it could look like this: INITIATIVE LIST: =============== Initiative .............. Monster ID 26 ........................ 1 - Kbobld 25 ........................ 17 - Orc 23 ........................ 11 - Orc 22 ........................ 9 - Goblin 20 ........................ 12 - Orc 17 ........................ 4 - Kobold etc. --
Nom 10-11-06, 10:01 AM	(1) Avoid running battles with many allies. A couple is OK, any more than that and just remove the allies and their enemies, focus on what the PC's are doing, and summarise the result of the other skirmishes later. (2) Don't track initiative yourself. I always get one of my clued-in players to track initiative, and that works much better.
Frugal 10-11-06, 11:26 AM	First, I'd suggest using initiative cards, or something similar, for tracking initiative, that'll really help in keeping the combat flowing. I haven't gone quite that far yet but I print off statblocks for all the creatures in a planned encounter (with all the feats and other customizations I may have made applied). My plan is to take this a step further and put them on separate cards (maybe just cutting up the statblocks). Then you just stack into init order and whenver a combatant comes up you have their statblock right in front of you. Someone delays? Pull out their card and pop it back in when they act. A huge advantage to doing it this way is you always have the combatant's statblock right in front of you and you can really cut down on book shuffling (especially if you need more than 1 book) and cuts down on forgetting to apply bonuses or different equipment (oh right, those Kobolds are level 3 warriors and have light crossbows). And you also have these handy cards for writing down current HPs and any effects or conditions they're under (which can be a huge headache in a big combat). As for determining initiative, how about doing a sort of averaged out method? There's 20 scouts? Great assume you rolled 1-20 (if they're all the same), good to go. For less than 20, I'd probably start in the middle and then add up and down from there. It's not going to be 100% accurate but it'll get you close and is way quicker than rolling them all and helps cut down on the crazy group tactics you can get if a whole group is on the same initiative.
Borne Of Hate 10-11-06, 02:13 PM	I would suggest dividing them up based on similarity or even Initiative bonus. Everyone with an initiative bonus of 3 goes on.... {rolls D20+3) To expand on this a little bit more... I also use tiny post-it notes stuck to the bottom of the baddies bases to record hit points. WOW was that the best move I have ever done for large scale battles.