Big Boss Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Big Boss Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hiryuu
11-14-04, 01:25 AM Alrighty, I know a standard CR 6 critter will eat up 1/6 of a 6th level party's resources....so. Is there somepace in the Dungeon Master's Guide that will assist me in designing an encounter with a creature or character that will nearly obliterate the party? That is, I have a bunch of level 2 PCs. I want them to crawl away from this particular combat with their joints barely intact, making them crawl back to town to lick their wounds and talk about how they really want to kill that guy. I also want them to have a chance at winning.

The scenario: I have some PCs going after a cult that's been kidnapping local women, looking for a virgin elf. Once they arrive at temporary cult HQ, they're in the middle of packing up and skipping town (the PCs have been killing cultists - once their members start to disappear, they plan to leave). They've called in a necromancer to help with overseeing the operation and dealing with any of the local troublemakers. Certainly she has an escape plan, a bracelet she can snap and teleport her back to the cult's primary headquarters. Anyway, she's the "hold them off while we run like heck" stereotypical monkey. She's not to kill them, but I want it to make it look like she can, and I want the PCs do feel like they can win at the same time.

What level should I set her at? Five, maybe?
Draco Strang
11-14-04, 02:49 AM If I were you, i'd make her no higher than level 3, but here's the twist....give her legions of level 1 minions. I'm talking numerous fighters (with a good mixture of reach, ranged, and melee weapons) along with a few spellcasters, a rogue or two, and some clerics to heal and buff opposition really well. Having a gaggle of terriers nipping at your heels can be just as bad as facing a juggernaut. (Case in point the Flood from halo)

This will cause them to chug potions and use magic items to stay alive, as these guys will be gnawing away at their hitpoints two or three at a time.
MortalPlague
11-14-04, 04:39 AM Better yet, have the PCs get a few NPCs along for the ride, and kill off one or two of them. Don't make it look like you're killing off NPCs, but make them drop from damage. With level 2 PCs, I would give her level 5, at least, then give her a bodyguard or two at about L3 fighter. Don't give either fighter any magical gear, and make them higher CON than STR, so they don't deal so much damage but can take a lot. Then give her the spell Sanctuary, so if things go wrong, she can became pretty near invulnerable and run away.

A few more creative ideas on how you could run an encounter like this:

Have the PCs attack her during the middle of a battle. There are undead all around, there are NPC warriors all around (maybe even monsters), and the bad guys have more pressing matters than the PCs to deal with. That way they have a legitimate excuse to drop the PCs mostly into negatives but not stick around to finish them off. There is a battle going on, and they're needed elsewhere!

Have the combat interrupted. Maybe an awakened bear thunders into the clearing, or some rangers happen onto the scene, causing the bad guys to flee and helping to heal the PCs.

Have the environment tailored for escape. Maybe have a door the PCs can retreat to and close, or have a bridge they can cut, or a rockfall the PCs could start, etc.

Have the evil chick brand the PCs (perhaps one of them in particular), then charm the party into doing evil deeds for her and the organization. Then when the PCs finally break free, they'll have earned some enemies wrongfully (who they'll have to make up with) and they'll truly hate the chick.
ShadowDragon8685
11-14-04, 07:14 AM Two words. "Zombified Rhinocerous." :)
grimfaery
11-14-04, 08:27 AM Just have 5 to 10 lvl. 1 warriors all with bows open fire at a very long distance. Do not have them close range at all, just let them fire away until the party is full of holes. If the party does mange to close in on the attackers then they all just drop bows and draw greatswords and go at them in melee with very little damage (assuming your party isn’t full of bad ass archers and spellcasters). If your party retreats then just have the bad guys follow and take pot shots whenever they can. Don’t over think it. Not every combat needs to turn into a rugby scrum after round 2!
hiryuu
11-14-04, 03:21 PM The problem is that the cell of cultists I'm dealing with is small. They were really just here for one ritual, which they got done already (an unlocking ritual, which is one of the things they need to do to go about summoning a dread god). She (this particular NPC) was already in the area (she was actually on a seperate mission, drumming up some much neededfunds by roughing up a few local "guilds" and picking up a magic item from a nearby contact), so she can be easily sent in.

The environment: An unstable volcanic region in the ruins of a bronze age city made of marble. Most of the surrounding area is badlands and a blasted landscape of poison gas pockets and lava fields. The fight itself will be played out in an area with some fallen columns that hamper movement for both sides, gas vents that, if stepped on, will hamper vision and provide concealement, and some steps of an old ruin. Cliff walls will make going around not an option, and she'll stop them a good enough distance that running past her wouldn't be viable.

I'm going to try and run some test combats with her at level 4 and level 5 before I actually get done writing the adventure, as I have all the PC stats right here with me.
ShadowDragon8685
11-14-04, 03:29 PM How about the Big Bad Evil Girl T-poofs away after exchanging a few shots, but she leaves them something nasty to deal with, like a minor form of stone golem?

Halfling-sized, y'know? DR 10/Bludgeoning, like that?
Nom
11-14-04, 08:32 PM Against a level 2 party, quantity is better than quality. Throwing packs of fiendish vermin (Summon Monster I) or lemure (Summon Monster II) at them is much 'safer' than throwing a 6d6 fireball (average damage 21, enough to kill a level 2 fighter, or a level 2 wizard even with a successful save!). Though I noticed 'hellhound' in the level SM3 list; unlikely to kill in one hit, but should give a 'run away' message loud and clear.

Use weakening attacks. cause fear (1), scare (2), ray of enfeeblement (1), ray of exhaustion (3) and stinking cloud (3) will all give 2 HD enemies a "you're badly outmatched" message without killing them. Avoid sleep and deep slumber, unless you're sure that some PCs will survive to drag their buddies away.

Sample attack sequence (assuming level 6 wizard):

Default spells: mage armor (1), protection from arrows (2)
Pre-battle prep (if possible): invisibility (2), protection from good (1).
Round 1: summon monster 3 (3): fiendish huge monstrous centipede. 6d8+6 HD (33 hp), DR 5/magic, fire/cold resistance 5, SR 11, bite +5 melee (2d6+4 plus DC 14 1d6 Dex poison), space/reach 15 ft/10ft. A front line fighter can only shrug off one good hit from this thing, and the various resistances make it a pain to kill quickly at level 2.

Wait and see how they handle the monster. If they look like they have a chance, hit them with more summons (preserving invisibility) or scare (2) or ray of exhaustion (3). Feel free to buff up using fox's cunning (2) while waiting.

If casters are causing problems, feel free to drop a summon monster II on them, summoning 1d3 small nasties. Try spellcasting when flanked! A readied magic missile volley (3d4+3, no save) will also do wonders, though it does void invisibility.
hiryuu
11-14-04, 09:04 PM I don't want a group; the cell can't afford a group at the moment. She just happens to be close enough to call in for this. I have her in my list as a "growing" NPC (meaning she's tagged to be gaining levels, even if she never runs into the PCs, and I have her stats at levels 1-20). The PCs have been in town longer than I anticipated. If they had gone a week earlier, the "we've got to get out of here" encounter would have been a troupe of warriors and a level 2 Mage with cure spells (while the cult members pulled off the first ritual, which has now gone off without a hitch), and she was supposed to be in town to help them get set back up. However, she's not, she's dropping off her magic item, then got the call that some group of adventurers found out what was happening, and the site of the second ritual's been changed. So she's showing up to help pack things up and take charge of security, which, really, is nothing, all of them are being used to escort the prisoner and equipment.

I'm just gonna put her at level five and take it easy if things look bad.

Here's what she looks like at level 5.

Dred, Chapter 1, Level 5
Female Human
Necromancer 5
AL NE
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 19, Wis 14, Cha 14
AC 12 touch 12
HD 4d5+20 (34 hp)
Base Attack +2
Attack Total: +3, damage 1d6 (masterwork quarterstaff)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +6
Concentration +12, Spellcraft +12, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Knowledge (Religion) +15, Knowledge (The Planes) +12 ,Use Magic Device +10, Sense Motive +10

Feats: Skill Focus (Knowledge [Religion]), Corpsecrafter, Deadly Chill, Hardened Flesh, Rebuke Undead

Spell Points 25+10 (35 total)
Total Spells Known: 11
Max Spell Level: 3
Spells Known: 6/4/1
1st-Level: Detect Magic, Cure Light Wounds, Doom, Vigor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Negative Energy Ray
2nd-Level: Inflict Moderate Wounds, Command Undead, Soul Whip, Remove Paralysis
3rd-Level: Animate Dead

Special: Undead created by Dred gain +4 str, +2 hp per hit die, and +2 natural armor and deal +1d6 cold damage with each attack.

Items: Recall bracelet, masterwork quarterstaff, symbol of the Children of Maruzduhn, Codex of the Host with certain passages underlined (a holy text, more of a "wtf?" item).

Here, she comes with two zombies. Should I drop one or both?

The party currently has: a necromancer, a fighter, an evoker hireling, and a rogue.
dragnkpr
11-14-04, 09:07 PM For the most part, quantity is indeed better than quality at lower levels. If you don't want to make a higher level boss, and you can't fit lots of nasty critters in the room, you could load the entrance way with traps. Or you could load the room with traps, as long as they won't hurt the boss (such as putting flame jets in the room when the boss has a ring of fire protection). Nonlethal traps work well too. You'd be surpised how much low level characters can be hampered by dropping a net on them.
hiryuu
11-14-04, 11:52 PM I. Know. I'm asking a simple question. Yet, I'm getting lots of advice that I didn't ask for. It's all right, I understand.

In this case, the PCs have eaten up all other alternatives because of their actions. This is a world in which everyone is on a timetable (everyone - I have notes about people committing minor crimes and being arrested, timetables of other people visitng, and other people buying groceries, in the city some five miles where the PCs are at), and things happen even if the PCs aren't there. This is the last resort of the cult itself (as I said: IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A GROUP A WEEK AGO. NOW THAT'S NOT AN OPTION). Of course the entrance is trapped, but they don't even want the PCs getting that far. And if I netted them, they'd all be dead inside 2 rounds (these guys don't fool around - net 'em, knock 'em out, dump 'em in the lava). They just want the PCs to get beat up enough to get the message not to mess with them anymore (of course, PCs being PCs, instead of, say, intelligent people, that won't work).
penchant
11-15-04, 04:00 AM *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*
Wow you are the most @n@L DM I have met to date. I am truly impressed. I take my hat off to you and curtsey with a half-step.

My solution is go ahead an kill one character. She can then leave and the players will have to either tend to that or leave the body behind. If the players are more intent on continued harrassment of the Necro, then she animates their friend and they have to deal with it.

Cheers!
quarkstomper
11-15-04, 12:17 PM A horde of minions doesn't necessarily mean a horde of cultists. Could your necromancress summon, say, a swarm of rats or some similar type of overpowering nuisance?
Phrennzy
11-15-04, 02:04 PM if I netted them, they'd all be dead inside 2 rounds (these guys don't fool around - net 'em, knock 'em out, dump 'em in the lava). They just want the PCs to get beat up enough to get the message not to mess with them anymore.

This is contradicting yourself.

If the guys will kill the PCs if they net them, why would they just want to beat them up to get a message.

Anyways.

The problem with having one big bad guy is that she can kill a PC each round.

You are better off with numerous smaller foes. She's a necromancer? Animal Skeletons would be easy to create. Any murder/sacrifice victims become animated as well.

For her personal attendants, I would think she would want ghouls instead of zombies. Zombies are unintelligent. Ghouls could follow her orders and reason things out. Zombies can't even open a door.

Plus the ghouls will manhandle anyone - they get 3 attacks and paralyze. That's a TPK.

If you want to put the smack down with her, let her spontaneously cast Inflict Moderate Wounds (2d8+5) as a touch attack. That'll take care of just about anyone. Give her a wand of it and it's all over.
Woas
11-15-04, 02:27 PM If I can, I try to advance a lower CR monster. If I can't advance them, then I advance them anyway. (Which is kinda of 'against the rules' but..) I give a "Boss" more hitpoints but none of the other benifits.

So, for example, if you did not want a CR 6 critter to be the boss and have the powers of a CR 6 monster against a party of average level 2, then take a CR 3 or 2 monster and just give them full hitpoints plus a little more.

This way, the monster will have enough hit points to 'hang around' longer. Take more than 2 hits without dropping, and dish out more than 2 hits before dropping... The monster will also have approriate AC, Attack Bonus and special abilities for level 2 players to handle but still be able to beat the party up a bit and get away with it.

Hope that helps.
Rainsforth
11-15-04, 06:23 PM Here's an option to try that I've used in the past:

Make the main monster level 6, after a few rounds of serious beating on the NPCs, have another good NPC who's been tracking down the HQ save the party, Fight her a few rounds, gives HER a serious beating, she retreats then the good NPC treats their wounds.

various reasons for the good NPC to not follow after could be:

1) Healing is a priority, have to make sure no one dies.

2) Espionage, he was tracking her down and the PCs just blew his cover when he needed to rescue them. If he chased after, it'd look suspectious so he was just there to "rescue them" (this also could lead to the NPC giving some info on your main arch-villian or not, depending on attitude towards players)

3) He simply views the NPC as unimportant
Nom
11-15-04, 09:50 PM I. Know. I'm asking a simple question. Yet, I'm getting lots of advice that I didn't ask for. It's all right, I understand.It's because the piece of information you asked for isn't entirely relevant. It doesn't primarily matter what level she is; what matters is how she fights the battle. Though you haven't provided a decent explanation of why it's to the cult's benefit to run off rather than kill the PCs.

As to the character, I find it an odd build. I assume from the presence of cure and inflict spells that it's a cleric-derivative class? In which case, why is her Wis only 14 while her Con and Int are 18 and 19? Does she get a domain spell at level 3? If she's a Wiz class, she should have 3 level 3 spells (1 std + 1 bonus + 1 spec).

I certainly wouldn't drop zombies. If anything, I'd add more. A low-level necromancer should always have a full complement of animated dead, and most of those would be with her. More undead also sends the 'clearly outmatched' message more obviously.
hiryuu
11-16-04, 01:11 AM No, it's a "Mage." Works very similar to how the psion works in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, except any given Mage is a specialist in his or her field. Rangers and Paladins have been given compensation for having no spells, and I've dropped the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer. Special class features for each of them are available as feats (except Wild Shape - that can be covered by simply playing a Transmuter with nature skills). I moved the Conjuration (Healing) over to Necromancy, where it belongs. I wanted a way for fighting spellcasters that made each one a different affair. Battling the mind-controlled minions of an enchanter is far different from the surrealistic landsapes created by an illusionist or the transmuter that you can never really seem to find. This is kind of the playtest game for the new magic system. It's not really all that relevant right now, just her current level (by the by, in my acid tests, she slaughtered them at level 5, but with level 4, she came out just right).

Yeah, I know that line contradicted itself. What I mean to say is they want to smack them around, not kill them - using a net is trying to kill them (after all, just netting them and runnng doesn't effectively send the message). Using a mage like this and leaving them bruised and battered, though.

Ah, as for ghouls, she can't make them yet. But if she survives and isn't killed or captured, she'll get them one day.

And rest assured, from here on out, I hope to high heaven there will be group encounters. This single encounter is a headache. I just want it over with.

I am really sorry about being, well, a little retentive so-and-so. It comes from being a writer, I think. I demand perfection and relative realism in the worlds I run. It's fun to play some mindless kill-them-and-take-their-things stuff, but when I run, I curl my fingers like some esoteric silent film villain and map out way more than I need to, so that if my PCs veer off the beaten path I've designed for them, there are things waiting for them....events, people, places, and a thousand plots (insert maniacal laughter).

And if you think that's a bit, well, retentive, get a load of this: I create a new world for every campaign I run.

I apologize again. If I insulted anyone, I am really sorry (if I did insult anyone in any way, please, PM me and I'll apologize directly).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hiryuu 11-14-04, 01:25 AM	Alrighty, I know a standard CR 6 critter will eat up 1/6 of a 6th level party's resources....so. Is there somepace in the Dungeon Master's Guide that will assist me in designing an encounter with a creature or character that will nearly obliterate the party? That is, I have a bunch of level 2 PCs. I want them to crawl away from this particular combat with their joints barely intact, making them crawl back to town to lick their wounds and talk about how they really want to kill that guy. I also want them to have a chance at winning. The scenario: I have some PCs going after a cult that's been kidnapping local women, looking for a virgin elf. Once they arrive at temporary cult HQ, they're in the middle of packing up and skipping town (the PCs have been killing cultists - once their members start to disappear, they plan to leave). They've called in a necromancer to help with overseeing the operation and dealing with any of the local troublemakers. Certainly she has an escape plan, a bracelet she can snap and teleport her back to the cult's primary headquarters. Anyway, she's the "hold them off while we run like heck" stereotypical monkey. She's not to kill them, but I want it to make it look like she can, and I want the PCs do feel like they can win at the same time. What level should I set her at? Five, maybe?
Draco Strang 11-14-04, 02:49 AM	If I were you, i'd make her no higher than level 3, but here's the twist....give her legions of level 1 minions. I'm talking numerous fighters (with a good mixture of reach, ranged, and melee weapons) along with a few spellcasters, a rogue or two, and some clerics to heal and buff opposition really well. Having a gaggle of terriers nipping at your heels can be just as bad as facing a juggernaut. (Case in point the Flood from halo) This will cause them to chug potions and use magic items to stay alive, as these guys will be gnawing away at their hitpoints two or three at a time.
MortalPlague 11-14-04, 04:39 AM	Better yet, have the PCs get a few NPCs along for the ride, and kill off one or two of them. Don't make it look like you're killing off NPCs, but make them drop from damage. With level 2 PCs, I would give her level 5, at least, then give her a bodyguard or two at about L3 fighter. Don't give either fighter any magical gear, and make them higher CON than STR, so they don't deal so much damage but can take a lot. Then give her the spell Sanctuary, so if things go wrong, she can became pretty near invulnerable and run away. A few more creative ideas on how you could run an encounter like this: Have the PCs attack her during the middle of a battle. There are undead all around, there are NPC warriors all around (maybe even monsters), and the bad guys have more pressing matters than the PCs to deal with. That way they have a legitimate excuse to drop the PCs mostly into negatives but not stick around to finish them off. There is a battle going on, and they're needed elsewhere! Have the combat interrupted. Maybe an awakened bear thunders into the clearing, or some rangers happen onto the scene, causing the bad guys to flee and helping to heal the PCs. Have the environment tailored for escape. Maybe have a door the PCs can retreat to and close, or have a bridge they can cut, or a rockfall the PCs could start, etc. Have the evil chick brand the PCs (perhaps one of them in particular), then charm the party into doing evil deeds for her and the organization. Then when the PCs finally break free, they'll have earned some enemies wrongfully (who they'll have to make up with) and they'll truly hate the chick.
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 07:14 AM	Two words. "Zombified Rhinocerous." :)
grimfaery 11-14-04, 08:27 AM	Just have 5 to 10 lvl. 1 warriors all with bows open fire at a very long distance. Do not have them close range at all, just let them fire away until the party is full of holes. If the party does mange to close in on the attackers then they all just drop bows and draw greatswords and go at them in melee with very little damage (assuming your party isn’t full of bad ass archers and spellcasters). If your party retreats then just have the bad guys follow and take pot shots whenever they can. Don’t over think it. Not every combat needs to turn into a rugby scrum after round 2!
hiryuu 11-14-04, 03:21 PM	The problem is that the cell of cultists I'm dealing with is small. They were really just here for one ritual, which they got done already (an unlocking ritual, which is one of the things they need to do to go about summoning a dread god). She (this particular NPC) was already in the area (she was actually on a seperate mission, drumming up some much neededfunds by roughing up a few local "guilds" and picking up a magic item from a nearby contact), so she can be easily sent in. The environment: An unstable volcanic region in the ruins of a bronze age city made of marble. Most of the surrounding area is badlands and a blasted landscape of poison gas pockets and lava fields. The fight itself will be played out in an area with some fallen columns that hamper movement for both sides, gas vents that, if stepped on, will hamper vision and provide concealement, and some steps of an old ruin. Cliff walls will make going around not an option, and she'll stop them a good enough distance that running past her wouldn't be viable. I'm going to try and run some test combats with her at level 4 and level 5 before I actually get done writing the adventure, as I have all the PC stats right here with me.
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 03:29 PM	How about the Big Bad Evil Girl T-poofs away after exchanging a few shots, but she leaves them something nasty to deal with, like a minor form of stone golem? Halfling-sized, y'know? DR 10/Bludgeoning, like that?
Nom 11-14-04, 08:32 PM	Against a level 2 party, quantity is better than quality. Throwing packs of fiendish vermin (Summon Monster I) or lemure (Summon Monster II) at them is much 'safer' than throwing a 6d6 fireball (average damage 21, enough to kill a level 2 fighter, or a level 2 wizard even with a successful save!). Though I noticed 'hellhound' in the level SM3 list; unlikely to kill in one hit, but should give a 'run away' message loud and clear. Use weakening attacks. cause fear (1), scare (2), ray of enfeeblement (1), ray of exhaustion (3) and stinking cloud (3) will all give 2 HD enemies a "you're badly outmatched" message without killing them. Avoid sleep and deep slumber, unless you're sure that some PCs will survive to drag their buddies away. Sample attack sequence (assuming level 6 wizard): Default spells: mage armor (1), protection from arrows (2) Pre-battle prep (if possible): invisibility (2), protection from good (1). Round 1: summon monster 3 (3): fiendish huge monstrous centipede. 6d8+6 HD (33 hp), DR 5/magic, fire/cold resistance 5, SR 11, bite +5 melee (2d6+4 plus DC 14 1d6 Dex poison), space/reach 15 ft/10ft. A front line fighter can only shrug off one good hit from this thing, and the various resistances make it a pain to kill quickly at level 2. Wait and see how they handle the monster. If they look like they have a chance, hit them with more summons (preserving invisibility) or scare (2) or ray of exhaustion (3). Feel free to buff up using fox's cunning (2) while waiting. If casters are causing problems, feel free to drop a summon monster II on them, summoning 1d3 small nasties. Try spellcasting when flanked! A readied magic missile volley (3d4+3, no save) will also do wonders, though it does void invisibility.
hiryuu 11-14-04, 09:04 PM	I don't want a group; the cell can't afford a group at the moment. She just happens to be close enough to call in for this. I have her in my list as a "growing" NPC (meaning she's tagged to be gaining levels, even if she never runs into the PCs, and I have her stats at levels 1-20). The PCs have been in town longer than I anticipated. If they had gone a week earlier, the "we've got to get out of here" encounter would have been a troupe of warriors and a level 2 Mage with cure spells (while the cult members pulled off the first ritual, which has now gone off without a hitch), and she was supposed to be in town to help them get set back up. However, she's not, she's dropping off her magic item, then got the call that some group of adventurers found out what was happening, and the site of the second ritual's been changed. So she's showing up to help pack things up and take charge of security, which, really, is nothing, all of them are being used to escort the prisoner and equipment. I'm just gonna put her at level five and take it easy if things look bad. Here's what she looks like at level 5. Dred, Chapter 1, Level 5 Female Human Necromancer 5 AL NE Str 10, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 19, Wis 14, Cha 14 AC 12 touch 12 HD 4d5+20 (34 hp) Base Attack +2 Attack Total: +3, damage 1d6 (masterwork quarterstaff) Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +6 Concentration +12, Spellcraft +12, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Knowledge (Religion) +15, Knowledge (The Planes) +12 ,Use Magic Device +10, Sense Motive +10 Feats: Skill Focus (Knowledge [Religion]), Corpsecrafter, Deadly Chill, Hardened Flesh, Rebuke Undead Spell Points 25+10 (35 total) Total Spells Known: 11 Max Spell Level: 3 Spells Known: 6/4/1 1st-Level: Detect Magic, Cure Light Wounds, Doom, Vigor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Negative Energy Ray 2nd-Level: Inflict Moderate Wounds, Command Undead, Soul Whip, Remove Paralysis 3rd-Level: Animate Dead Special: Undead created by Dred gain +4 str, +2 hp per hit die, and +2 natural armor and deal +1d6 cold damage with each attack. Items: Recall bracelet, masterwork quarterstaff, symbol of the Children of Maruzduhn, Codex of the Host with certain passages underlined (a holy text, more of a "wtf?" item). Here, she comes with two zombies. Should I drop one or both? The party currently has: a necromancer, a fighter, an evoker hireling, and a rogue.
dragnkpr 11-14-04, 09:07 PM	For the most part, quantity is indeed better than quality at lower levels. If you don't want to make a higher level boss, and you can't fit lots of nasty critters in the room, you could load the entrance way with traps. Or you could load the room with traps, as long as they won't hurt the boss (such as putting flame jets in the room when the boss has a ring of fire protection). Nonlethal traps work well too. You'd be surpised how much low level characters can be hampered by dropping a net on them.
hiryuu 11-14-04, 11:52 PM	I. Know. I'm asking a simple question. Yet, I'm getting lots of advice that I didn't ask for. It's all right, I understand. In this case, the PCs have eaten up all other alternatives because of their actions. This is a world in which everyone is on a timetable (everyone - I have notes about people committing minor crimes and being arrested, timetables of other people visitng, and other people buying groceries, in the city some five miles where the PCs are at), and things happen even if the PCs aren't there. This is the last resort of the cult itself (as I said: IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A GROUP A WEEK AGO. NOW THAT'S NOT AN OPTION). Of course the entrance is trapped, but they don't even want the PCs getting that far. And if I netted them, they'd all be dead inside 2 rounds (these guys don't fool around - net 'em, knock 'em out, dump 'em in the lava). They just want the PCs to get beat up enough to get the message not to mess with them anymore (of course, PCs being PCs, instead of, say, intelligent people, that won't work).
penchant 11-15-04, 04:00 AM	clap clap clap clap clap clap Wow you are the most @n@L DM I have met to date. I am truly impressed. I take my hat off to you and curtsey with a half-step. My solution is go ahead an kill one character. She can then leave and the players will have to either tend to that or leave the body behind. If the players are more intent on continued harrassment of the Necro, then she animates their friend and they have to deal with it. Cheers!
quarkstomper 11-15-04, 12:17 PM	A horde of minions doesn't necessarily mean a horde of cultists. Could your necromancress summon, say, a swarm of rats or some similar type of overpowering nuisance?
Phrennzy 11-15-04, 02:04 PM	if I netted them, they'd all be dead inside 2 rounds (these guys don't fool around - net 'em, knock 'em out, dump 'em in the lava). They just want the PCs to get beat up enough to get the message not to mess with them anymore. This is contradicting yourself. If the guys will kill the PCs if they net them, why would they just want to beat them up to get a message. Anyways. The problem with having one big bad guy is that she can kill a PC each round. You are better off with numerous smaller foes. She's a necromancer? Animal Skeletons would be easy to create. Any murder/sacrifice victims become animated as well. For her personal attendants, I would think she would want ghouls instead of zombies. Zombies are unintelligent. Ghouls could follow her orders and reason things out. Zombies can't even open a door. Plus the ghouls will manhandle anyone - they get 3 attacks and paralyze. That's a TPK. If you want to put the smack down with her, let her spontaneously cast Inflict Moderate Wounds (2d8+5) as a touch attack. That'll take care of just about anyone. Give her a wand of it and it's all over.
Woas 11-15-04, 02:27 PM	If I can, I try to advance a lower CR monster. If I can't advance them, then I advance them anyway. (Which is kinda of 'against the rules' but..) I give a "Boss" more hitpoints but none of the other benifits. So, for example, if you did not want a CR 6 critter to be the boss and have the powers of a CR 6 monster against a party of average level 2, then take a CR 3 or 2 monster and just give them full hitpoints plus a little more. This way, the monster will have enough hit points to 'hang around' longer. Take more than 2 hits without dropping, and dish out more than 2 hits before dropping... The monster will also have approriate AC, Attack Bonus and special abilities for level 2 players to handle but still be able to beat the party up a bit and get away with it. Hope that helps.
Rainsforth 11-15-04, 06:23 PM	Here's an option to try that I've used in the past: Make the main monster level 6, after a few rounds of serious beating on the NPCs, have another good NPC who's been tracking down the HQ save the party, Fight her a few rounds, gives HER a serious beating, she retreats then the good NPC treats their wounds. various reasons for the good NPC to not follow after could be: 1) Healing is a priority, have to make sure no one dies. 2) Espionage, he was tracking her down and the PCs just blew his cover when he needed to rescue them. If he chased after, it'd look suspectious so he was just there to "rescue them" (this also could lead to the NPC giving some info on your main arch-villian or not, depending on attitude towards players) 3) He simply views the NPC as unimportant
Nom 11-15-04, 09:50 PM	I. Know. I'm asking a simple question. Yet, I'm getting lots of advice that I didn't ask for. It's all right, I understand.It's because the piece of information you asked for isn't entirely relevant. It doesn't primarily matter what level she is; what matters is how she fights the battle. Though you haven't provided a decent explanation of why it's to the cult's benefit to run off rather than kill the PCs. As to the character, I find it an odd build. I assume from the presence of cure and inflict spells that it's a cleric-derivative class? In which case, why is her Wis only 14 while her Con and Int are 18 and 19? Does she get a domain spell at level 3? If she's a Wiz class, she should have 3 level 3 spells (1 std + 1 bonus + 1 spec). I certainly wouldn't drop zombies. If anything, I'd add more. A low-level necromancer should always have a full complement of animated dead, and most of those would be with her. More undead also sends the 'clearly outmatched' message more obviously.
hiryuu 11-16-04, 01:11 AM	No, it's a "Mage." Works very similar to how the psion works in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, except any given Mage is a specialist in his or her field. Rangers and Paladins have been given compensation for having no spells, and I've dropped the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer. Special class features for each of them are available as feats (except Wild Shape - that can be covered by simply playing a Transmuter with nature skills). I moved the Conjuration (Healing) over to Necromancy, where it belongs. I wanted a way for fighting spellcasters that made each one a different affair. Battling the mind-controlled minions of an enchanter is far different from the surrealistic landsapes created by an illusionist or the transmuter that you can never really seem to find. This is kind of the playtest game for the new magic system. It's not really all that relevant right now, just her current level (by the by, in my acid tests, she slaughtered them at level 5, but with level 4, she came out just right). Yeah, I know that line contradicted itself. What I mean to say is they want to smack them around, not kill them - using a net is trying to kill them (after all, just netting them and runnng doesn't effectively send the message). Using a mage like this and leaving them bruised and battered, though. Ah, as for ghouls, she can't make them yet. But if she survives and isn't killed or captured, she'll get them one day. And rest assured, from here on out, I hope to high heaven there will be group encounters. This single encounter is a headache. I just want it over with. I am really sorry about being, well, a little retentive so-and-so. It comes from being a writer, I think. I demand perfection and relative realism in the worlds I run. It's fun to play some mindless kill-them-and-take-their-things stuff, but when I run, I curl my fingers like some esoteric silent film villain and map out way more than I need to, so that if my PCs veer off the beaten path I've designed for them, there are things waiting for them....events, people, places, and a thousand plots (insert maniacal laughter). And if you think that's a bit, well, retentive, get a load of this: I create a new world for every campaign I run. I apologize again. If I insulted anyone, I am really sorry (if I did insult anyone in any way, please, PM me and I'll apologize directly).