Big Fights -- Your Advice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Big Fights -- Your Advice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
the_icon
02-12-08, 10:22 PM Okay.

I'm DMing a group of six. They're only at level two, but I'm already running into lag problems. That is, there are so many things going on at one time (especially during combat) that the game is getting bogged down; and that's not fun for anyone.

Problem: Fighting large groups of enemies

The portion of the campaign the PCs are playing out right now is, undeniably, fraught with goblins. More specifically, the PCs will be investigating the source of a recent goblinoid pandemic -- a hollowed-out mountain that has been re-taken by dwarves. Many goblins still inhabit the surrounding area, however; which brings us to my question:

How do you handle large groups of enemies (~10) in addition to your PCs?

Also, any advice on efficiently managing initiative for encounters such as these would be greatly appreciated.
BruceLeeroy
02-12-08, 10:34 PM Make the goblins capable of delivering damage, but not taking it. If the PCs are level 2, adjust the goblin's attack bonus until it's just less than an even chance they'll hit the average party member, dealing minor damage (but it can add up!)

Now adjust the AC down (probably to around 12-13) and drop the goblin's con modifier from their HP.

This will make the goblins die much faster, while still retaining their capacity to threaten the group.

Also, I have large groups of mooks all go on the same initiative (usually quite low, unless they ambushed the PCs) while retaining the individual initiative scores of stronger mooks (sergeants, berserkers, casters, etc).

Also, get an egg timer. No one should take more than 2-3 minutes to decide their action, unless it's a Wizard, and even then don't give them more than 5.

All of these options are totally within your control as a DM, and they should speed up the fight. If your PCs are chopping down mooks in a single swipe, GREAT! If all of your mooks are going last in the round, once they move in you can roll all of their attacks at once, and just check to see if they would hit. Use different color dice to mark which mook is swinging at which player. Then you can just roll a fistful of d20s, see who hit who, and roll damage.
1red13
02-12-08, 10:47 PM For large combats i focus on the pcs. Often there are large combats that have implications but you can get bogged down in dice rolling that doesn't involve the pcs.

In an instance if you have a group of four i focus on the combat that involves the pcs. You can burn a lot of time rolling attacks for npcs that though they are in the general area it would be unfair to the pcs to make them sit while the dm rolls attacks and damage for them.

I will often make a d20 roll for the allies and the same for the enemies. I then give a rough exptrapolation as if they were attack roles taking into consideration the relative strength of the opponents.
CastTiltowait
02-12-08, 10:54 PM While I don't necessarily agree with the adjusting of to hit #'s and AC, I agree with the advice of having all the bad guys (except for specials) going off on the same initiative. Also, have something like a white board to write down the initiative sequence on so you're not having to count down. Just roll initiative, go around and ask when everyone's going, and write them down appropriately. If they delay/ready an action, just erase them and put them at their new initiative count. I've also seen people use index cards w/appropriate combat stats on them. Put them in initiative sequence and call off names as you go through the deck.

When you roll for the badguys, don't roll the die one at a time. If there's 3 goblins on the fighter, roll all three attacks at the same time. You could even roll their damage at the same time, making the arbitrary rule that the order of d20's going left to right corresponds to the d6's (or whatever) also going left to right. If you really want to speed things up and have many different colors of dice, use a different color to represent each player, so if there's 3 goblins on the wizard and 2 on the fighter, roll 5 die, color-coded to the PC's.
AntiDjinn
02-13-08, 12:08 AM One initiative for the bad guys is a good plan. Figure a group that acts as a group will coordinate, so the faster guys wait for the slow ones. If you have an elite leader type then he may have a better Dex and improved initiative, but will apply this mod to the single roll made by the group.

Don't bother to make separate saving throws for each creature, unless such would actually make a difference. For example, if the party mage catches 20 goblins in a fireball, and the damage rolled is such that even those who make the save will die anyway, then don't waste the time rolling to see who is just dead and who is really fried. This would only matter if individual goblins are carrying items that might be affected.

If the same 20 goblins are fireballed and damage is such that those who make the reflex save will still be alive, then just do it quick and dirty. Let's say that after figuring DC and all mods, a goblin needs to roll an 18 to make the save. That means 17 out of 20 fail so knock over 17 and figure out where the 3 survivors are (probably farthest from the blast). These 3 you will need to keep track of since they are almost dead. Trust me, this goes a lot faster than 20 separate saving throws.
CCS
02-13-08, 12:46 AM If I know there'll be large scale battles I tend to pre-roll the enemies inititives & their attacks/damage.
Example;

Inititive
20 -Joe
19 -Dan
18 - orc #1(axe), hits AC: 13, 17, 22*, 19
17 -NPC
16 -Ettin
etc.
The * denotes a possible crit.
To determine wich character orc #1 attacks it's part random & partially based upon where he is on the map.

This allows me to simply read off the results & describe what the orc does with a min. of dice rolls (to confirm any crits) when actually at the table.
Sometimes circumstances will dictate that I add a flanking bonus or something during the description.
I've even gone so far as to abstract the # of hits it takes to drop lesser foes now & then. Typically it's one hit for every HD the thing has. Though if a player rolls really well/poor on the damage it either won't count or counts double. & why not? The players don't know exactly how I'm keeping track of the gnoll/orc/hobgoblin/sahuigin/etc mobs HPs. All they see is me making some notation behind the screen....
Natuarally important creatures (like the ettin I listed) get the full attack roll/HP treatment. But not the hoards of 1-2 HD things.
Jutter
02-13-08, 06:35 AM - Let all NPC's/Monsters act on the same initiative.
- Make sure your players know the initiative order", so they can prepare themselves when their turn comes up. Write it down on a whiteboard, or use clothepins with their names on it on top of your DM-screen.
- Roll several D20's at the same time. If a guy gets attacked by 8 goblins, ask for his AC, and determine what number will hit. Roll 8 D20's, remove what didn't hit, reroll threats, then roll damage.
- Roll multiple attacks from the same monster at the same time. Use d20's with different colors. "You get a full attack from the dragon. The red d20 is the bite, the blue and white are his claws, the yellow is the tail slap and the two black are the wings."
kelvinaw273
02-13-08, 09:06 AM There are three ways you can make fights and encounters with large groups faster:

1) Preparation: make sure you have the monsters statted out before hand. As much as possible give them the same stats and weapons. Have attack bonuses and the like ready for play.

2) Preparation: get their state of mind and tactics prepared beforehand. Know what they will do if surprised, not surprised, threatened etc.

3) Preparation: get all encounters prepped in advance of the game night. Know what each monster is likely to do long before they have to do it.

That done, all you have to do is roll the dice for your turn.
Nid_Food
02-13-08, 11:34 AM We do several things:

Let everyone know the AC of the enemies. Sure, it allows a little metagaming, but it saves the group from asking "Does AC 35 hit? How about 28? 26?" each and every attack.

Know the enemies you're using. I print out either a char sheet for them or their entry in the SRD for quick reference.

15 seconds for a PC action. If each PC takes 2-3 minutes, that adds up very quickly -- 6 PCs now taking 12-18 minutes a round...way too long. With 15 seconds, it forces people to pay attention or lose their turn. Casters are looking up spells while the fighters are swinging. With the threat of losing a turn, we've never had anyone actually go over the 15 seconds, and battle has sped up alot.

Make the PC's look up odd rules or things that have a static DC. Example -- PC wants to tumble past an enemy. There's a static DC for it, they need to look it up and have it ready for the DM. This is included in the 15 seconds we allot.

PCs keep track of their own buffs.

Use a visible initiative chart. Preferably something that lets you erase easily for PCs who hold/delay.
Kihoninu
02-13-08, 03:42 PM I am with Nid Food on this one, I personally use a small white board (A4 size) you can get from office outlets that are meant to to be for hanging on the wall and leaving messages (like a sort of cork board)

I use one board to log the details for each party member (AC, HP and weapons for descriptions) and a second board for logging the details of enemies in battles including initiative orders.

This way of tracking a large fight is very useful as it is fast and very simple.

I hope that this will help you with your issue as it did me with mine.
geekling
02-13-08, 06:18 PM I've even gone so far as to abstract the # of hits it takes to drop lesser foes now & then. Typically it's one hit for every HD the thing has. Though if a player rolls really well/poor on the damage it either won't count or counts double. & why not? The players don't know exactly how I'm keeping track of the gnoll/orc/hobgoblin/sahuigin/etc mobs HPs. All they see is me making some notation behind the screen...

I "cheat" on the mooks too, if there's a large number of them. But my version is rather than keeping track of HP or hits for each individual mook (too much book keeping.) I just set a damage value. If the PCs do >X amount of damage in one round, or >Y in one hit. That mook is out of the game - no longer fighting. Dead or unconcious, decide it's had enough and fleeing/surrendering, or just lying on the ground screaming too seriously wounded to continue. (Just to mix it up a bit, it's so dull when they all just drop dead, and the agonised screams of the dying/wounded adds so to the athmosphere of a battle. :P )
necrom99
02-13-08, 06:28 PM PC's get a 6 second count down if they cant figure out what they're doin by the time there initiative pass comes up..... enemies get group initiative, unless there are different kinds of baddies example

1... PC 1
2... PC 2
3... Goblins
4.... PC 3
5... Warg

I have 7 PC's and it STILL takes mega time to run a decent battle, but my players are used to it so they have everything ready by the time there respective turns come around, it also means everyone keeps careful attention to the battle.
nivlac_calvin
02-13-08, 07:34 PM Pre rolling initative is good, but what I do is if there are two or more monsters on one PC I count them as one monster on their turn, ie: same init, atk roll, damage (sometimes), ect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_icon 02-12-08, 10:22 PM	Okay. I'm DMing a group of six. They're only at level two, but I'm already running into lag problems. That is, there are so many things going on at one time (especially during combat) that the game is getting bogged down; and that's not fun for anyone. Problem: Fighting large groups of enemies The portion of the campaign the PCs are playing out right now is, undeniably, fraught with goblins. More specifically, the PCs will be investigating the source of a recent goblinoid pandemic -- a hollowed-out mountain that has been re-taken by dwarves. Many goblins still inhabit the surrounding area, however; which brings us to my question: How do you handle large groups of enemies (~10) in addition to your PCs? Also, any advice on efficiently managing initiative for encounters such as these would be greatly appreciated.
BruceLeeroy 02-12-08, 10:34 PM	Make the goblins capable of delivering damage, but not taking it. If the PCs are level 2, adjust the goblin's attack bonus until it's just less than an even chance they'll hit the average party member, dealing minor damage (but it can add up!) Now adjust the AC down (probably to around 12-13) and drop the goblin's con modifier from their HP. This will make the goblins die much faster, while still retaining their capacity to threaten the group. Also, I have large groups of mooks all go on the same initiative (usually quite low, unless they ambushed the PCs) while retaining the individual initiative scores of stronger mooks (sergeants, berserkers, casters, etc). Also, get an egg timer. No one should take more than 2-3 minutes to decide their action, unless it's a Wizard, and even then don't give them more than 5. All of these options are totally within your control as a DM, and they should speed up the fight. If your PCs are chopping down mooks in a single swipe, GREAT! If all of your mooks are going last in the round, once they move in you can roll all of their attacks at once, and just check to see if they would hit. Use different color dice to mark which mook is swinging at which player. Then you can just roll a fistful of d20s, see who hit who, and roll damage.
1red13 02-12-08, 10:47 PM	For large combats i focus on the pcs. Often there are large combats that have implications but you can get bogged down in dice rolling that doesn't involve the pcs. In an instance if you have a group of four i focus on the combat that involves the pcs. You can burn a lot of time rolling attacks for npcs that though they are in the general area it would be unfair to the pcs to make them sit while the dm rolls attacks and damage for them. I will often make a d20 roll for the allies and the same for the enemies. I then give a rough exptrapolation as if they were attack roles taking into consideration the relative strength of the opponents.
CastTiltowait 02-12-08, 10:54 PM	While I don't necessarily agree with the adjusting of to hit #'s and AC, I agree with the advice of having all the bad guys (except for specials) going off on the same initiative. Also, have something like a white board to write down the initiative sequence on so you're not having to count down. Just roll initiative, go around and ask when everyone's going, and write them down appropriately. If they delay/ready an action, just erase them and put them at their new initiative count. I've also seen people use index cards w/appropriate combat stats on them. Put them in initiative sequence and call off names as you go through the deck. When you roll for the badguys, don't roll the die one at a time. If there's 3 goblins on the fighter, roll all three attacks at the same time. You could even roll their damage at the same time, making the arbitrary rule that the order of d20's going left to right corresponds to the d6's (or whatever) also going left to right. If you really want to speed things up and have many different colors of dice, use a different color to represent each player, so if there's 3 goblins on the wizard and 2 on the fighter, roll 5 die, color-coded to the PC's.
AntiDjinn 02-13-08, 12:08 AM	One initiative for the bad guys is a good plan. Figure a group that acts as a group will coordinate, so the faster guys wait for the slow ones. If you have an elite leader type then he may have a better Dex and improved initiative, but will apply this mod to the single roll made by the group. Don't bother to make separate saving throws for each creature, unless such would actually make a difference. For example, if the party mage catches 20 goblins in a fireball, and the damage rolled is such that even those who make the save will die anyway, then don't waste the time rolling to see who is just dead and who is really fried. This would only matter if individual goblins are carrying items that might be affected. If the same 20 goblins are fireballed and damage is such that those who make the reflex save will still be alive, then just do it quick and dirty. Let's say that after figuring DC and all mods, a goblin needs to roll an 18 to make the save. That means 17 out of 20 fail so knock over 17 and figure out where the 3 survivors are (probably farthest from the blast). These 3 you will need to keep track of since they are almost dead. Trust me, this goes a lot faster than 20 separate saving throws.
CCS 02-13-08, 12:46 AM	If I know there'll be large scale battles I tend to pre-roll the enemies inititives & their attacks/damage. Example; Inititive 20 -Joe 19 -Dan 18 - orc #1(axe), hits AC: 13, 17, 22, 19 17 -NPC 16 -Ettin etc. The denotes a possible crit. To determine wich character orc #1 attacks it's part random & partially based upon where he is on the map. This allows me to simply read off the results & describe what the orc does with a min. of dice rolls (to confirm any crits) when actually at the table. Sometimes circumstances will dictate that I add a flanking bonus or something during the description. I've even gone so far as to abstract the # of hits it takes to drop lesser foes now & then. Typically it's one hit for every HD the thing has. Though if a player rolls really well/poor on the damage it either won't count or counts double. & why not? The players don't know exactly how I'm keeping track of the gnoll/orc/hobgoblin/sahuigin/etc mobs HPs. All they see is me making some notation behind the screen.... Natuarally important creatures (like the ettin I listed) get the full attack roll/HP treatment. But not the hoards of 1-2 HD things.
Jutter 02-13-08, 06:35 AM	- Let all NPC's/Monsters act on the same initiative. - Make sure your players know the initiative order", so they can prepare themselves when their turn comes up. Write it down on a whiteboard, or use clothepins with their names on it on top of your DM-screen. - Roll several D20's at the same time. If a guy gets attacked by 8 goblins, ask for his AC, and determine what number will hit. Roll 8 D20's, remove what didn't hit, reroll threats, then roll damage. - Roll multiple attacks from the same monster at the same time. Use d20's with different colors. "You get a full attack from the dragon. The red d20 is the bite, the blue and white are his claws, the yellow is the tail slap and the two black are the wings."
kelvinaw273 02-13-08, 09:06 AM	There are three ways you can make fights and encounters with large groups faster: 1) Preparation: make sure you have the monsters statted out before hand. As much as possible give them the same stats and weapons. Have attack bonuses and the like ready for play. 2) Preparation: get their state of mind and tactics prepared beforehand. Know what they will do if surprised, not surprised, threatened etc. 3) Preparation: get all encounters prepped in advance of the game night. Know what each monster is likely to do long before they have to do it. That done, all you have to do is roll the dice for your turn.
Nid_Food 02-13-08, 11:34 AM	We do several things: Let everyone know the AC of the enemies. Sure, it allows a little metagaming, but it saves the group from asking "Does AC 35 hit? How about 28? 26?" each and every attack. Know the enemies you're using. I print out either a char sheet for them or their entry in the SRD for quick reference. 15 seconds for a PC action. If each PC takes 2-3 minutes, that adds up very quickly -- 6 PCs now taking 12-18 minutes a round...way too long. With 15 seconds, it forces people to pay attention or lose their turn. Casters are looking up spells while the fighters are swinging. With the threat of losing a turn, we've never had anyone actually go over the 15 seconds, and battle has sped up alot. Make the PC's look up odd rules or things that have a static DC. Example -- PC wants to tumble past an enemy. There's a static DC for it, they need to look it up and have it ready for the DM. This is included in the 15 seconds we allot. PCs keep track of their own buffs. Use a visible initiative chart. Preferably something that lets you erase easily for PCs who hold/delay.
Kihoninu 02-13-08, 03:42 PM	I am with Nid Food on this one, I personally use a small white board (A4 size) you can get from office outlets that are meant to to be for hanging on the wall and leaving messages (like a sort of cork board) I use one board to log the details for each party member (AC, HP and weapons for descriptions) and a second board for logging the details of enemies in battles including initiative orders. This way of tracking a large fight is very useful as it is fast and very simple. I hope that this will help you with your issue as it did me with mine.
geekling 02-13-08, 06:18 PM	I've even gone so far as to abstract the # of hits it takes to drop lesser foes now & then. Typically it's one hit for every HD the thing has. Though if a player rolls really well/poor on the damage it either won't count or counts double. & why not? The players don't know exactly how I'm keeping track of the gnoll/orc/hobgoblin/sahuigin/etc mobs HPs. All they see is me making some notation behind the screen... I "cheat" on the mooks too, if there's a large number of them. But my version is rather than keeping track of HP or hits for each individual mook (too much book keeping.) I just set a damage value. If the PCs do >X amount of damage in one round, or >Y in one hit. That mook is out of the game - no longer fighting. Dead or unconcious, decide it's had enough and fleeing/surrendering, or just lying on the ground screaming too seriously wounded to continue. (Just to mix it up a bit, it's so dull when they all just drop dead, and the agonised screams of the dying/wounded adds so to the athmosphere of a battle. :P )
necrom99 02-13-08, 06:28 PM	PC's get a 6 second count down if they cant figure out what they're doin by the time there initiative pass comes up..... enemies get group initiative, unless there are different kinds of baddies example 1... PC 1 2... PC 2 3... Goblins 4.... PC 3 5... Warg I have 7 PC's and it STILL takes mega time to run a decent battle, but my players are used to it so they have everything ready by the time there respective turns come around, it also means everyone keeps careful attention to the battle.
nivlac_calvin 02-13-08, 07:34 PM	Pre rolling initative is good, but what I do is if there are two or more monsters on one PC I count them as one monster on their turn, ie: same init, atk roll, damage (sometimes), ect.