Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Revil 09-19-05, 04:10 PM	Before I get started asking my many questions for the great sages here at the Wizards board to answer, I'd like to give you some background information on my game. First of all, there are only two of us playing, my girlfriend and myself. She is living with me, and recently discovered my books pertaining to this wonderful hobby I'd all but abandoned because of time (College and working near full-time tends to do that.) My schedule has cleared recently due to several reasons and I have time to play again. She has expressed interest in playing a game, and it doesn't bother me at all to DM for her. I have the core books for the D&D system, as well as supplements and alternate rule sets from other companies (I have the core books from the EverQuest role-playing series from Sword&Sorcery, and am working on getting the Warcraft series as well). I would like to implement several different rules into my game from these various compendiums, such as the Trade Skill system from EverQuest, plus many races/classes from the Warcraft series, but my problems don't concern these or I'd go to the WW sight. ^^ Here are my problems: 1) My gf is a new player. Utterly new. She has never played a game similar to this. I have much experience in training new players, but seeing the special circumstance, I was wondering if any of you might see a problem I don't. 2) She wants to play a rogue (my favorite class <3), which compounds the first problem. I see rogues as one of the most difficult classes to play, as it requires much finesse, technique, and strategy that some other classes usually do not (forgive my vainity ^^). I have no problem letting her play this class, however, I am having difficulty developing a decent teaching method to show her how to play. Any suggestions? I have thought a Training Adventure (like the tutorial of a videogame) might help her, I have already constructed a decent, yet average, rogue that she can use/abuse to get to know her class better without breaking up the continuity and story of a campaign with many, many deaths. XD 3) As she is my only player (I live in a small, conservative town) I have several, more fundamental, problems to correct. Such as the fact that the party number is severely handicapped. Also, with no tanks or casters to supplement her rogue, she's in deep doodoo when/if straight combat ever occurs. Do I go ahead, against reason, and use a DMPC? Or several to beef out her party? Also, what kind of campaign can I run that is rogue-focused? That's a more severe problem of mine, and I would REALLY appreciate any help any of you can provide. 4) She has expressed interest in running the game. I have told her as much as I could (without confusing her too terribly) about the game, and she has expressed a lot of ethusiasm to leading a game. The problem is, I have no idea how to train a new DM. I have never done it before, so I have no experience. I have trained dozens of players (powergamers, no less, forgive me, I am guilty of such a trait), but never a DM. I fear merely handing over the books and telling her to read, for it may take her forever to figure it out. And I also don't want to be a rules consultant at the same time I'm playing. It sucks the joy out. ^^ Don't get me wrong though, I'll happily guide her through the initial adventures, so that she can rest more assured that she knows the rules. 5) The gameshop in my area just closed down, and I've become stranded without a source of getting any more supplements/replacements for books. I am able to order online, and have done so several times, yet I cannot seem to find an area where I can buy WotC books online. I would prefer not to use a third-party such as amazon.com, but it looks like my last option. Any suggestions on where I might buy more books? Thank you for your help, even if all you did was read this. Also, I don't expect everyone who provides me with some help to answer every single one of my questions, so don't feel daunted by my ignorance. XD Revil.
Psychoticpsymon 09-19-05, 04:18 PM	1) Nah, sounds normal. It isn't anything special, but for the love of god tell her about how you aren't going to be her friend when ur DM! If she isn't careful, she dies, tell her so she isn't suprised later! 2) Rogues can be used by noobs, just read her the rogue information in the PHB 3) DMPC is supposed to be avoided, but just keep him lazy. Tell her she will have to order your character around because you know too much to act on your own, unless you want to play one game like that to get it out of the way. 4) Just tell her how you do it! Let her read your DMG, tell her when shes doing things right and let her down easy if she messes anything up. And remember, tell her to read the dmg. Very important 5) No ideas there, sorry.
VirgilCaine 09-19-05, 04:35 PM	2) She wants to play a rogue (my favorite class <3), which compounds the first problem. I see rogues as one of the most difficult classes to play, as it requires much finesse, technique, and strategy that some other classes usually do not (forgive my vainity ^^). I have no problem letting her play this class, however, I am having difficulty developing a decent teaching method to show her how to play. Any suggestions? I have thought a Training Adventure (like the tutorial of a videogame) might help her, I have already constructed a decent, yet average, rogue that she can use/abuse to get to know her class better without breaking up the continuity and story of a campaign with many, many deaths. XD 3) As she is my only player (I live in a small, conservative town) I have several, more fundamental, problems to correct. Such as the fact that the party number is severely handicapped. Also, with no tanks or casters to supplement her rogue, she's in deep doodoo when/if straight combat ever occurs. Do I go ahead, against reason, and use a DMPC? Or several to beef out her party? Also, what kind of campaign can I run that is rogue-focused? That's a more severe problem of mine, and I would REALLY appreciate any help any of you can provide. 4) She has expressed interest in running the game. I have told her as much as I could (without confusing her too terribly) about the game, and she has expressed a lot of ethusiasm to leading a game. The problem is, I have no idea how to train a new DM. I have never done it before, so I have no experience. I have trained dozens of players (powergamers, no less, forgive me, I am guilty of such a trait), but never a DM. I fear merely handing over the books and telling her to read, for it may take her forever to figure it out. And I also don't want to be a rules consultant at the same time I'm playing. It sucks the joy out. ^^ Don't get me wrong though, I'll happily guide her through the initial adventures, so that she can rest more assured that she knows the rules. 5) The gameshop in my area just closed down, and I've become stranded without a source of getting any more supplements/replacements for books. I am able to order online, and have done so several times, yet I cannot seem to find an area where I can buy WotC books online. I would prefer not to use a third-party such as amazon.com, but it looks like my last option. Any suggestions on where I might buy more books? 2) A rogue can work alone--as a spy or assassin type character. Silent Moves armor would be a priority. Few Undead or other Un-crittable enemies. Use Magic Device adds a lot of versatility--any scroll, wand or item is now [possibly] usable. Disguise (by spell or mundanely) can also help subterfuge. Objectives--steal the magic jewel, poison the water source, steal the plans, escape from the dungeon, are the key for missions. Maybe assassinate one enemy, say the commander or priest. 3) Necklace of Fireballs and Bags of Tricks, Deck of Illusions all could help in combat. Mostly, this is a distraction to run away or get to the objective. Wands of Summon Monster are useful, and don't forget the value of Levitation+Shield to keep enemies out of reach. 4) Persuade her to learn the game first, maybe play more than just a rogue, to have a balanced experience of the game. 5) Why don't you want to use 3rd party sites?
Revil 09-19-05, 04:45 PM	From bottom to top: VirgilCaine: Thanks muches for the advice! The answers to my questions were exactly what I was looking for, game mechanics and story all. As for not buying from third party sites, I have no clue whether or not they are reliable. That, and I'm stubborn and like to get things from the source. ^^ Psychoticpsymon: A big thanks to you too! The 'lazy' DMPC idea is great, and keeps me from defeating my own adventures single-handedly. I appreciate it. Keep those suggestions coming!
VirgilCaine 09-19-05, 05:01 PM	As for not buying from third party sites, I have no clue whether or not they are reliable. That, and I'm stubborn and like to get things from the source. ^^ You don't know whether Amazon.com is reliable? :confused: If it's a used book, okay, but the new books are handled by the website itself, not individuals.
KJW 09-19-05, 05:36 PM	1) Besides my online campaign, my main gaming is with my wife in solo campaigns and we have gamed for over a decade in countless campaigns. The main problem I have is that she wants to game every night of the week, which fries the synapses of this old DM. :) 2) Rogues are great, especially for urban campaigns. I would maybe begin with a test for her to join a guild or other group, this would give her specific skill checks to perform and maybe a little interaction with NPCs to ease her into the mechanics. 3) My NPCs in solo campaigns are not dumb, the solo PC needs advice good and bad. Real characters with flaws is what you need, not many maybe 1-2 to start out to form her party. You need as the DM to have conversations with other characters, in other words get used to talking to yourself. There have been a few threads in the last couple weeks on solo campaigns give them a look, some of the advice is really good. Campaign Idea: I would suggest an urban adventure with little jobs for a guild or organization, perhaps a little espionage, sewer explorations, clearing out old houses, robbery, protection/bodyguard, rescue of hostages, etc. 4) OK first she needs to be a player for awhile and then she can try out DMing, not until she gets the swing of roleplaying should she be DMing. Additionally, she needs a handle on the mechanics, not expertise just an understanding. The best and only way to learn how to DM is to do it. It just takes practice to master. Also tell her to start small, my wife's instinct is to go really big, but she just hasn't DMed enough to always pull it off. Classic mistake of beginning DMs. 5) I buy all my stuff from Amazon and have never had a problem, delivery is uber-quick, and less expensive than buying in gaming stores. Sad but true. Plus I have found the reviews on Amazon pretty good, at least to my tastes.
revnk 09-19-05, 06:13 PM	5) I buy all my stuff from Amazon and have never had a problem, delivery is uber-quick, and less expensive than buying in gaming stores. Sad but true. Plus I have found the reviews on Amazon pretty good, at least to my tastes. The only problem you're liable to have with Amazon.com is the wracking guilt you'll feel about choosing the big-time-faceless-supermonster that shipped the book right to your door for $8 under Wizard's list price instead of going to the nice little hole-in-the-wall brick'n'mortar that's run by a pretty cool friend-of-a-friend but charges $2 over list, has lousy parking and is in a strip mall on the edge of a bad neighborhood. Sorry, small business owners of America. I mean, yes, I do feel a little guilty and ashamed. But One-Click Shopping. One-Click Shopping! Get the books on Amazon. And if your order doesn't qualify for free shipping, throw a cheap CD on top of it. Seriously: why pay $5 for S&H when you can just add $9 to the order and get some tunes, too? (Now I feel bad about my local record store, too. Great.)
VirgilCaine 09-19-05, 07:32 PM	...instead of going to the nice little hole-in-the-wall brick'n'mortar that's run by a pretty cool friend-of-a-friend but charges $2 over list, has lousy parking and is in a strip mall on the edge of a bad neighborhood. Yes, but then most game stores aren't run by businessmen, they're run by gamers looking for a discount on their Product of Choice. Unfortunately.
Revil 09-19-05, 07:33 PM	You guys are really helping me out, both with my game and my online-shopping fears^^. Does anyone have an idea of what sort of campaign might be suitable to a solo rogue player? Dungeon-delving, dragon-slaying, and world-saving just aren't done so well with rogues. Any ideas?
VirgilCaine 09-19-05, 07:35 PM	The obvious: a thieve's guild campaign. Or an assassin's guild-fighting campaign--Olidammara/Kord vs. Nerull/Erythnul/Hextor. Oh, and don't forget! Cloak of Resistance. Even more important for a solo character than one in a party.
Starlight Knight 09-19-05, 09:37 PM	I think one of the best ways for a newbie to learn a game is to simply roll up a character. I think she would learn a lot just from that one simple step. I think rogues are great to start off with. The very first time I played was as a bard. The DM at the time said he would let me play it but he didn't think I should because he felt it was one of the hardest classes to play. Before the week was over I was schooling him in the great ways of the bard. I played it so well I was able to pick up the slack of 2 other players. As for the type of campain you want to run I would suggest you adjust it to the race she plays. For instance, if she plays an elf you could have the adventure take place mostly in the woods. Nothing is quite as scary as being stuck in the woods with an elf with a lot of acrobatics. A city setting works just as well for that. For human or elf rogues dungeons are great. But instead of a lot of high powered monsters, it could be an ancient city in ruins filled with traps for her to dis-arm. Hope that helps.
Colmarr 09-19-05, 11:09 PM	Personally, I think Rogues are more suited to solo play than any other class. D&D does not allow the endless hacking inherent in solo "fighter" style computer games. PCs die too quickly. Nor does D&D spellcasting reflect the capabilities of wizard-style characters in those same games. What D&D does reflect well is the abilities of characters like Garrett in the Thief games, and Sam Fisher in the Splinter Cell games. Everything that either of those two characters can do can be done by a low-level rogue in D&D. For inspiration, get a copy of Thief: Deadly Shadows or Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. Both are avaialable on Xbox and PC, and both are excellent games. They'll give you hordes of idea for missions and challenges for rogues.
Revil 09-19-05, 11:35 PM	Colmarr: I play SCCT, and she has watched me pwn online muches. ^^ When I was relating all the classes to real-life examples, I related the rogue to the spy in SC. I think that's what hooked her on it. So, I'm guessing I can, as many of you have suggested, draw inspirations from that game. I have yet to delve far into the single-player aspect of it though. SK: I agree, and have shown her how to roll up an efficient charrie tonight. I basically rolled up my own rogue, to give her inspirations for her own. I'm hoping she'll do as you did, and totally blow me away with new tactics and such, teaching me (a rogue vet) how to play them. ^.^ Virgil: Yes, I was thinking along those same lines...but I'm having trouble getting her to that point. She has a backstory of growing up in a small village, and I want to use every inch of her story to build the world she's in. I'm using this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=471897) as a great referrence towards making another great campaign. Oakspar really knows what he's doing. No doubt in my mind. Keep'm coming peeps, one can never have too much advice or criticism!!
KeltenVonRatzenberger 09-20-05, 03:40 AM	So far I'd say you've gotten great advice. For the most part I agree with what's been said so far. The only way to learn is to dive right in. Starting with a rogue or bard, I think, is better because it teaches new players how malleable everything can be. Roll up another rogue after she does to illustrate how different two characters of the same class can be. As for story, I agree with urban guild missions/wars. Hit and run, assasinate, item retreval. The only thing I disagree with is use Barnes and Noble.com instead of Amazon. Same free shipping with an extra discount if you decide to get the card. 20 bucks a year for an extra 10%.
Joe Khol 09-20-05, 07:56 AM	1) My gf is a new player. Utterly new. She has never played a game similar to this. I have much experience in training new players, but seeing the special circumstance, I was wondering if any of you might see a problem I don't. Shouldn't be a problem, depending on your individual natures and that of your relationship of course. Just let her learn more than teach her (don't try to impose your preferences and opinions - such as the nature of the rogue), and at her own pace. 2) She wants to play a rogue (my favorite class <3), which compounds the first problem. I see rogues as one of the most difficult classes to play, as it requires much finesse, technique, and strategy that some other classes usually do not (forgive my vainity ^^). I kind of see your point but I don't see it as a major issue. All the classes have their complexities and strategies to learn but everyone plays each character, class and race differently. Anyway, Rogue is a good choice for a solo character. 3) As she is my only player (I live in a small, conservative town) I have several, more fundamental, problems to correct. Such as the fact that the party number is severely handicapped. Also, with no tanks or casters to supplement her rogue, she's in deep doodoo when/if straight combat ever occurs. Do I go ahead, against reason, and use a DMPC? Or several to beef out her party? Also, what kind of campaign can I run that is rogue-focused? That's a more severe problem of mine, and I would REALLY appreciate any help any of you can provide.[QUOTE=Revil] I really dislike DMPCs or party-based NPCs and never see them as a necessity, even in situations like this. I'd suggest a campaign based around the character establishing herself as the thief/fence/rogue whatever in a small town with no other organised gangs (at first!). You could play it Robin Hood style if you or she wish to stay good or go the traditional selfish (neutral) or even evil criminal. This way, you could build up a gang of NPCs who she can work/fight alongside sometimes but also have plenty of interesting solo work too. A good balance I feel. As time goes on, she can face problems with the authorities (good-guy watch or evil overlord as appropriate), rival gangs, revenge attacks from victims... the list goes on and can take you in pretty much any direction you wish it to. [QUOTE=Revil]4) She has expressed interest in running the game. She should really spend a significant amount of time playing before considering that. I don't see a problem with her trying to run something for you though, as a practice. Experience gaming in a larger group would be useful too (I appreciate the problems you have with that though). The gameshop in my area just closed down...I would prefer not to use a third-party such as amazon.com Why-ever not? If you're happy buying on-line, you can't do much worse than Amazon by all accounts.
Revil 09-20-05, 05:45 PM	Again, thanks everybody for their help. I'll take into account everything you say, and put it to good use. Thanks everyone!!
dasneakygit 09-20-05, 06:58 PM	Another thing you can do is use her interests to make the campaign, for example if she loves Indiana Jones/Tomb Raider style movies than the spooky old abandoned city full of traps is a good angle. If she likes the cat burgler, pulling off the perfect hiest then build a game around that. Maybe she like a spy type game where she inflitrates the enemy city and gets close to the enemy general and steals info, or must kill him Look at what you think she will enjoy and build the adventure around that, use what movies and or books she enjoys to get an firm idea of what thoguht process to run down and go to town, she will enjoy it more because it will feel like you built it for her. ANd with using your knowledge of her and her likes and dislikes you can go a long way with that.