Bigger weapon and Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bigger weapon and Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cthulhu-LQ
03-27-07, 12:54 PM A fighter in my game will probably take Monkey Grip as his next feat.
Some players mentioned that weapons may gain reach as their size increase. Is that true? I didn't see anything about this in the SRD.

And how does Monkey Grip work exactly? :
In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

And the Monkey Grip description :
You can use one melee weapon that is one size larger than you in one hand
Since a two-handed weapon is the same size category as the wielder, a weapon one size larger than a wielder of medium size yould be a two-handed weapon designed for a large creature.
So a medium fighter with Monkey Grip could use a Greatsword designed for large creatures with only one hand.

Is that right?

Would the reach of that reatsword be increased?
trapspringer
03-27-07, 12:57 PM No.

It's like this:

Increasing the size of a weapon ups it's catagory in the light/one-handed/two-handed catagory.

Once you exceed two-handed, you can no longer wield the weapon.

Monkey grip basically lets you wield what is now a two-handed weapon as if it were still a one-handed weapon.

I don't know off the top of my head the rules for reach with larger weapons. Sorry.
Dei
03-27-07, 01:01 PM Monkeygrip would allow him to wield a Large Greatsword in two hand with the standard -2 penalty that the feat gives. However it would not increase his reach. Reach is determined by creature, not weapon size unless the weapon specifies otherwise (as with reach weapons).

Monkeygrip allows you to wield weapons one size category larger than normal so Monkeygrip will allow him to wield weapons as if he were a Large creature. A large two-handed weapon remains a large two-handed weapon. However he could now wield a medium two-handed weapon in one hand as any other Large creature could.
trapspringer
03-27-07, 01:44 PM However he could now wield a medium two-handed weapon in one hand as any other Large creature could.

I might be mistaken, but unless they updated or erratted that, it's a no-go.

You could, technically, wield an oversized one handed weapon in one hand, but not a two-handed weapon. The distinction is you would take a -2 penalty on attacks.

Again, IMBM.
Crimson_Concerto
03-27-07, 05:00 PM Monkey Grip does NOT increase the wielder's reach. Reach is based on the size of the character, NOT on the size of the weapon.

Monkey Grip works like this:
There are light weapons, one-handed weapons, and two-handed weapons.
Weilding a weapon larger than apropriate for your size normally makes you treat the weapon as one category larger, so you could wield a large light weapon as a one-handed weapon or a large one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon.
What monkey Grip lets you do is take a -2 penalty to attack to NOT have to increase the category of a larger weapon when weilding it.
In other words, but accepting a -2 penalty, a medium creature could weild a large light weapon as a light weapon instead of a one-handed weapon, a large one-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon instead of a two-handed weapon, and a large two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon instead of not at all.
DarknessEternal
03-27-07, 05:03 PM No, they do not provide extra reach.

You also may want to point out that Power Attack does more damage than Monkey Grip.
Onikani
03-27-07, 05:15 PM if he is using a halbard (or other reach weapon), it is logical to assume that a large one would simply have a longer handle, and therefor provide more reach.

An ogre (10ft reach) weilding a reach weapon has a 20 foot reach now (+10ft). So why wouldn't a human weilding an ogre's halberd have a 15ft' reach?

i think this is a judgement, i remember reading it somewhere but have no idea where. Sorry.

Also, check the faq, there is some nifty chart in the back of it that i glazed over the other day, it may explain it...
Crimson_Concerto
03-27-07, 05:17 PM if he is using a halbard (or other reach weapon), it is logical to assume that a large one would simply have a longer handle, and therefor provide more reach.

An ogre (10ft reach) weilding a reach weapon has a 20 foot reach now (+10ft). So why wouldn't a human weilding an ogre's halberd have a 15ft' reach?

No. Absolutely not. This is not the way reach works in 3.5. In 3.5, reach weapons doubt the wielder's natural reach. They do not add a set amount of reach based on the weapon's size. If the wielder's natural reach is 5 feet, it changes to 10 feet with a reach weapon. That is all.
Senevri
03-27-07, 07:06 PM No, they do not provide extra reach.

You also may want to point out that Power Attack does more damage than Monkey Grip.
...except when the weapon damage jumps two dice - typically from huge to gargantuan. Since the table maxes out, it's hard to say if a colossal creature with monkey grip could use a 10d6 greatsword.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

By default, you can already use oversized weapons at a penalty - in fact, you could wield a huge shortsword at -4 penalty, two-handed. Of course, you get no benefit out of it. The penalty itself isn't part of Monkey Grip's mechanic -- what it does is only this: It allows you to use one size category larger light weapon as a light weapon instead of 1h, a 1-h weapon as a 1-h weapon instead of 2-h, and it allows you to use larger 2h weapons, which wouldn't normally be possible.
trapspringer
03-27-07, 07:16 PM Also, it does more damage than power attack if used in conjunction with a really big weapon. Like really really.

Like that moose horn thing from Frostburn.
Elemental_Elf
03-27-07, 10:43 PM No, they do not provide extra reach.

You also may want to point out that Power Attack does more damage than Monkey Grip.

That all depends on how you are comparing. In a straight test a Monkey Gripped Large Great Sword deals an average of 9 Damage. If you use a Medium Great Sword at a -2 penalty (the same penalty as Monkey Grip) would yield an average damage of (6+4) 10. Yet if you look at the maximum threshold damage of a Monkey Gripped Large Great Sword (18) and a Power Attacked Medium Great Sword (12+4=16), you see that the Large Great Sword is superior.

So in a direct test, both have their pros and cons. The biggest difference is that Power Attack can be varied depending on enemy where as Monkey Grip can not. And that is why Power Attack is superior... Well in all way except for the fun factor of rolling a ton of dice, lol.

As for the OP, other have stated the answer, good luck!
Sildatorak
03-27-07, 11:42 PM That all depends on how you are comparing. In a straight test a Monkey Gripped Large Great Sword deals an average of 9 Damage. If you use a Medium Great Sword at a -2 penalty (the same penalty as Monkey Grip) would yield an average damage of (6+4) 10.
For some reason I feel compelled to pick nits here. 10.5 is the average damage of a large greatsword and 11 (7+4) is the damage on the power attacking for 2 greatsword. The average for a series of numbers is (lowest+highest)/2 if they follow a regular pattern.
AffableDoomwalker
03-27-07, 11:48 PM Woah, woah, woah... I's confuzzled. Back to the rules for a sec...

So...
-Monkey Grip allows someone to wield a weapon one-size larger than themselves.
and
-Monkey grip allows one to use a greatsword in one hand (and, if possible, dual-wield greatswords).

Or is it just one or the other?
trapspringer
03-28-07, 01:53 AM Neither. You were goin' strong then you went and bulloxed it up.

Roight, so you start out bein' able to wield a great sword two handed. Good for you.

Monkey grip will let you swing a larger version of that sword when you otherwise could not.

It will also let you wield a large long sword (mechanically a great sword) at a -2 penalty as a one handed weapon.

Monkey grip has no effect on your off hand.
AffableDoomwalker
03-28-07, 02:05 AM Neither. You were goin' strong then you went and bulloxed it up.

Roight, so you start out bein' able to wield a great sword two handed. Good for you.

Monkey grip will let you swing a larger version of that sword when you otherwise could not.

It will also let you wield a large long sword (mechanically a great sword) at a -2 penalty as a one handed weapon.

Monkey grip has no effect on your off hand.

Does the rule say that specifically?

Because I could totally see some half-orc with an attitude problem walking into a room with two greatswords strapped to his back.
trapspringer
03-28-07, 02:36 AM Yea, sorry. I'm pretty extremely confident about that.

On the other hand, you're primary hand can be shifted as a free action at the beggining of a round, so though you couldn't actually attack with both at once, you could full well lay some smack down with either. Could be handy for those pesky DR/X monsters.
Gamili
03-28-07, 03:42 AM The only way I can see monkey grip as being actually useful is with two feats plus your standard power attacking, shock troopering, leap attacking, and whatnot.

EWP(FullBlade) -> Monkey Grip

Making it melee-2 3d8/19-20x2

The other benefit is the complete overcompensation factor of a 15 foot sword. To put it into perspective, it's a huge bastard sword. Not even Cloud Strife himself could top that.
Cthulhu-LQ
03-28-07, 10:20 AM Thanks, that helps making things clear!

Just some more questions...

As I understand, Monkey Grip would be of no use when using a large-size dagger, you would still get a -2 penalty because it was not designed for the wielder's size, right?

Could a large-sized dagger be used with to hands, adding 1 1/2 str bonus to the damage?

I know it's probably not the most useful feat to deal damage. But it's a Munchkin game, and it gives flavor to this character who is a 7' half-dwarf sword enthusiast and has natural reach of 10' (but he's a medium creature!). And in a Munchkin game, it can't be a bad thing to be able to use oversized weapons.

And, while on the subject of oversized equipment... what happens if the PCs find an armor or a shield made for a large creature? can they use it? Can they refit it? Does it matter if it's magic?
Gamili
03-28-07, 10:38 AM The books say you can refit it, however I don't recall the price. I could imagine you could take a craft check on it and only pay half the price, though.
Senevri
03-28-07, 12:30 PM As I understand, Monkey Grip would be of no use when using a large-size dagger, you would still get a -2 penalty because it was not designed for the wielder's size, right?

Not...exactly. With monkey grip, it's still finessible light weapon. without it, it's a one-handed weapon. This matters with some builds and feats. Certainly, the damage increase won't help.

It is questionable, if the weapon size matters for disarm attempts. Curiously enough, it's easier to disarm someone using a large dagger with monkey grip, than someone using it as a 1-h weapon.
RobbyPants
03-28-07, 12:50 PM The only way I can see monkey grip as being actually useful is with two feats plus your standard power attacking, shock troopering, leap attacking, and whatnot.

EWP(FullBlade) -> Monkey Grip

Making it melee-2 3d8/19-20x2

The other benefit is the complete overcompensation factor of a 15 foot sword. To put it into perspective, it's a huge bastard sword. Not even Cloud Strife himself could top that.
I guess I was under the impression that a fullblade was a 3.0 A&E weapon, and it can be replicated by using Monkey Grip with a large bastard sword (also 2d8 damage). I could be wrong though...

Although the bastard sword does give a bit of a boost for Monkey Grip compared to Power Attack if you are looking to go sword and board:
The damage on a medium bastard sword is 1d10 (avg 5.5). If you use Power Attack for 2 points, you get 7.5 damage on average at -2 to hit. A large bastard sword does 2d8 damage (avg 9), so it gets +1.5 damage compared to Power Attack with the -2 to hit.
Pretty much, comparisons between the two feats are highly dependant on size and how many hands you're using.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cthulhu-LQ 03-27-07, 12:54 PM	A fighter in my game will probably take Monkey Grip as his next feat. Some players mentioned that weapons may gain reach as their size increase. Is that true? I didn't see anything about this in the SRD. And how does Monkey Grip work exactly? : In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder. And the Monkey Grip description : You can use one melee weapon that is one size larger than you in one hand Since a two-handed weapon is the same size category as the wielder, a weapon one size larger than a wielder of medium size yould be a two-handed weapon designed for a large creature. So a medium fighter with Monkey Grip could use a Greatsword designed for large creatures with only one hand. Is that right? Would the reach of that reatsword be increased?
trapspringer 03-27-07, 12:57 PM	No. It's like this: Increasing the size of a weapon ups it's catagory in the light/one-handed/two-handed catagory. Once you exceed two-handed, you can no longer wield the weapon. Monkey grip basically lets you wield what is now a two-handed weapon as if it were still a one-handed weapon. I don't know off the top of my head the rules for reach with larger weapons. Sorry.
Dei 03-27-07, 01:01 PM	Monkeygrip would allow him to wield a Large Greatsword in two hand with the standard -2 penalty that the feat gives. However it would not increase his reach. Reach is determined by creature, not weapon size unless the weapon specifies otherwise (as with reach weapons). Monkeygrip allows you to wield weapons one size category larger than normal so Monkeygrip will allow him to wield weapons as if he were a Large creature. A large two-handed weapon remains a large two-handed weapon. However he could now wield a medium two-handed weapon in one hand as any other Large creature could.
trapspringer 03-27-07, 01:44 PM	However he could now wield a medium two-handed weapon in one hand as any other Large creature could. I might be mistaken, but unless they updated or erratted that, it's a no-go. You could, technically, wield an oversized one handed weapon in one hand, but not a two-handed weapon. The distinction is you would take a -2 penalty on attacks. Again, IMBM.
Crimson_Concerto 03-27-07, 05:00 PM	Monkey Grip does NOT increase the wielder's reach. Reach is based on the size of the character, NOT on the size of the weapon. Monkey Grip works like this: There are light weapons, one-handed weapons, and two-handed weapons. Weilding a weapon larger than apropriate for your size normally makes you treat the weapon as one category larger, so you could wield a large light weapon as a one-handed weapon or a large one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. What monkey Grip lets you do is take a -2 penalty to attack to NOT have to increase the category of a larger weapon when weilding it. In other words, but accepting a -2 penalty, a medium creature could weild a large light weapon as a light weapon instead of a one-handed weapon, a large one-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon instead of a two-handed weapon, and a large two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon instead of not at all.
DarknessEternal 03-27-07, 05:03 PM	No, they do not provide extra reach. You also may want to point out that Power Attack does more damage than Monkey Grip.
Onikani 03-27-07, 05:15 PM	if he is using a halbard (or other reach weapon), it is logical to assume that a large one would simply have a longer handle, and therefor provide more reach. An ogre (10ft reach) weilding a reach weapon has a 20 foot reach now (+10ft). So why wouldn't a human weilding an ogre's halberd have a 15ft' reach? i think this is a judgement, i remember reading it somewhere but have no idea where. Sorry. Also, check the faq, there is some nifty chart in the back of it that i glazed over the other day, it may explain it...
Crimson_Concerto 03-27-07, 05:17 PM	if he is using a halbard (or other reach weapon), it is logical to assume that a large one would simply have a longer handle, and therefor provide more reach. An ogre (10ft reach) weilding a reach weapon has a 20 foot reach now (+10ft). So why wouldn't a human weilding an ogre's halberd have a 15ft' reach? No. Absolutely not. This is not the way reach works in 3.5. In 3.5, reach weapons doubt the wielder's natural reach. They do not add a set amount of reach based on the weapon's size. If the wielder's natural reach is 5 feet, it changes to 10 feet with a reach weapon. That is all.
Senevri 03-27-07, 07:06 PM	No, they do not provide extra reach. You also may want to point out that Power Attack does more damage than Monkey Grip. ...except when the weapon damage jumps two dice - typically from huge to gargantuan. Since the table maxes out, it's hard to say if a colossal creature with monkey grip could use a 10d6 greatsword. Inappropriately Sized Weapons A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. By default, you can already use oversized weapons at a penalty - in fact, you could wield a huge shortsword at -4 penalty, two-handed. Of course, you get no benefit out of it. The penalty itself isn't part of Monkey Grip's mechanic -- what it does is only this: It allows you to use one size category larger light weapon as a light weapon instead of 1h, a 1-h weapon as a 1-h weapon instead of 2-h, and it allows you to use larger 2h weapons, which wouldn't normally be possible.
trapspringer 03-27-07, 07:16 PM	Also, it does more damage than power attack if used in conjunction with a really big weapon. Like really really. Like that moose horn thing from Frostburn.
Elemental_Elf 03-27-07, 10:43 PM	No, they do not provide extra reach. You also may want to point out that Power Attack does more damage than Monkey Grip. That all depends on how you are comparing. In a straight test a Monkey Gripped Large Great Sword deals an average of 9 Damage. If you use a Medium Great Sword at a -2 penalty (the same penalty as Monkey Grip) would yield an average damage of (6+4) 10. Yet if you look at the maximum threshold damage of a Monkey Gripped Large Great Sword (18) and a Power Attacked Medium Great Sword (12+4=16), you see that the Large Great Sword is superior. So in a direct test, both have their pros and cons. The biggest difference is that Power Attack can be varied depending on enemy where as Monkey Grip can not. And that is why Power Attack is superior... Well in all way except for the fun factor of rolling a ton of dice, lol. As for the OP, other have stated the answer, good luck!
Sildatorak 03-27-07, 11:42 PM	That all depends on how you are comparing. In a straight test a Monkey Gripped Large Great Sword deals an average of 9 Damage. If you use a Medium Great Sword at a -2 penalty (the same penalty as Monkey Grip) would yield an average damage of (6+4) 10. For some reason I feel compelled to pick nits here. 10.5 is the average damage of a large greatsword and 11 (7+4) is the damage on the power attacking for 2 greatsword. The average for a series of numbers is (lowest+highest)/2 if they follow a regular pattern.
AffableDoomwalker 03-27-07, 11:48 PM	Woah, woah, woah... I's confuzzled. Back to the rules for a sec... So... -Monkey Grip allows someone to wield a weapon one-size larger than themselves. and -Monkey grip allows one to use a greatsword in one hand (and, if possible, dual-wield greatswords). Or is it just one or the other?
trapspringer 03-28-07, 01:53 AM	Neither. You were goin' strong then you went and bulloxed it up. Roight, so you start out bein' able to wield a great sword two handed. Good for you. Monkey grip will let you swing a larger version of that sword when you otherwise could not. It will also let you wield a large long sword (mechanically a great sword) at a -2 penalty as a one handed weapon. Monkey grip has no effect on your off hand.
AffableDoomwalker 03-28-07, 02:05 AM	Neither. You were goin' strong then you went and bulloxed it up. Roight, so you start out bein' able to wield a great sword two handed. Good for you. Monkey grip will let you swing a larger version of that sword when you otherwise could not. It will also let you wield a large long sword (mechanically a great sword) at a -2 penalty as a one handed weapon. Monkey grip has no effect on your off hand. Does the rule say that specifically? Because I could totally see some half-orc with an attitude problem walking into a room with two greatswords strapped to his back.
trapspringer 03-28-07, 02:36 AM	Yea, sorry. I'm pretty extremely confident about that. On the other hand, you're primary hand can be shifted as a free action at the beggining of a round, so though you couldn't actually attack with both at once, you could full well lay some smack down with either. Could be handy for those pesky DR/X monsters.
Gamili 03-28-07, 03:42 AM	The only way I can see monkey grip as being actually useful is with two feats plus your standard power attacking, shock troopering, leap attacking, and whatnot. EWP(FullBlade) -> Monkey Grip Making it melee-2 3d8/19-20x2 The other benefit is the complete overcompensation factor of a 15 foot sword. To put it into perspective, it's a huge bastard sword. Not even Cloud Strife himself could top that.
Cthulhu-LQ 03-28-07, 10:20 AM	Thanks, that helps making things clear! Just some more questions... As I understand, Monkey Grip would be of no use when using a large-size dagger, you would still get a -2 penalty because it was not designed for the wielder's size, right? Could a large-sized dagger be used with to hands, adding 1 1/2 str bonus to the damage? I know it's probably not the most useful feat to deal damage. But it's a Munchkin game, and it gives flavor to this character who is a 7' half-dwarf sword enthusiast and has natural reach of 10' (but he's a medium creature!). And in a Munchkin game, it can't be a bad thing to be able to use oversized weapons. And, while on the subject of oversized equipment... what happens if the PCs find an armor or a shield made for a large creature? can they use it? Can they refit it? Does it matter if it's magic?
Gamili 03-28-07, 10:38 AM	The books say you can refit it, however I don't recall the price. I could imagine you could take a craft check on it and only pay half the price, though.
Senevri 03-28-07, 12:30 PM	As I understand, Monkey Grip would be of no use when using a large-size dagger, you would still get a -2 penalty because it was not designed for the wielder's size, right? Not...exactly. With monkey grip, it's still finessible light weapon. without it, it's a one-handed weapon. This matters with some builds and feats. Certainly, the damage increase won't help. It is questionable, if the weapon size matters for disarm attempts. Curiously enough, it's easier to disarm someone using a large dagger with monkey grip, than someone using it as a 1-h weapon.
RobbyPants 03-28-07, 12:50 PM	The only way I can see monkey grip as being actually useful is with two feats plus your standard power attacking, shock troopering, leap attacking, and whatnot. EWP(FullBlade) -> Monkey Grip Making it melee-2 3d8/19-20x2 The other benefit is the complete overcompensation factor of a 15 foot sword. To put it into perspective, it's a huge bastard sword. Not even Cloud Strife himself could top that. I guess I was under the impression that a fullblade was a 3.0 A&E weapon, and it can be replicated by using Monkey Grip with a large bastard sword (also 2d8 damage). I could be wrong though... Although the bastard sword does give a bit of a boost for Monkey Grip compared to Power Attack if you are looking to go sword and board: The damage on a medium bastard sword is 1d10 (avg 5.5). If you use Power Attack for 2 points, you get 7.5 damage on average at -2 to hit. A large bastard sword does 2d8 damage (avg 9), so it gets +1.5 damage compared to Power Attack with the -2 to hit. Pretty much, comparisons between the two feats are highly dependant on size and how many hands you're using.