black & white to gray [Archive] - Wizards Community

black & white to gray [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mr. Bludgeon
10-20-04, 11:06 PM I will start my campaign in a little while, but in the meantime, I want to plan out parts of my campaign. I want my campaign to start out as clear cut black & white, but then I want it to turn very gray, and really see how the players handel this, and how they effect the world. I want to know, how would I add the gray? A friend of mine (bobothehobo8 here) gave me the suggestion of the characters think they are doing good, but it turns out that they are doing evil for a very evil person using them to further his own ends. I just want to look at all my choices before deciding how to do it, thanx in advance!
Stormbright
10-20-04, 11:21 PM This is generally a bad idea unless you've got mature players.
I just want to recommend against it, because you'd be suprised how quickly it becomes unfun. An old DM had us hired by an evil wizard from first level, and as we learned that he was evil, we were continually coerced into fulfilling his ends anyway. The campaign was written for us to continue, and I seriously doubt that the DM had anything different written. At which point, we decided that infinite draws from the Deck of Many Things was preferable than completing the campaign.
Melpomene
10-20-04, 11:28 PM Well, in my grey campaign, I pit two non-evil forces against each other. In my case they're CG and LN respectively, but any non-evil will do. There's much grey there.

Also, things like villians who are products of circumstances, good people behaving badly, and the forces of nature and nuetrality can blur lines.
Gryllmyre
10-21-04, 12:15 AM Personally, I think accomplishing a few tasks for an evil side, then finding out they are evil and confronting them, then having to stop them from fulfilling their evil plot can make for an exciting storyline, IF it is executed correctly.

After the realization and first confrontation, the key evil ones could escape, forcing the PC's to find them before it's too late.

If you're just wanting the campaign to be a 'pick whatever side you want' kind of thing, I'd have a hard time imagining a story style I'd enjoy.
Iyestorm
10-21-04, 12:23 AM Skewed alignment villains are good for this. Make a villain who thinks he/she/it's doing the right thing.
Callista
10-21-04, 12:36 AM Try villains who are not truly evil. Perhaps a misguided LN or CN villain, or even some flavor of Good who is doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Involve Evil-aligned noncombatants, Good-aligned members of normally evil races, and other such "exceptions to the rule".

In moderation: Choices which ask the PCs to pick "the lesser evil". For example, give them the opportunity to team up with one evil-aligned group in order to defeat another. If you give them two truly horrible choices, though, don't be surprised if they pick option C (in fact, you should have an option C prepared; forcing PCs into evil acts is bad DMing).

You could give them the option to help an evil-aligned society. Perhaps a nearby orc (or other Often Evil monster) tribe is being felled by a deadly disease--do they help, knowing that there probably non-evil orcs in the tribe? Or do they allow the orcs to die, knowing that many evil creatures will die along with the few non-evil?

I do need to caution you, though. If you are a new DM or they are new players, don't try any shades-of-gray adventures quite yet. D&D lends itself much less handily to "hard choices" morality than the easy black-and-white fantasy universe it was built for.

If anything, try a side quest with "shades of gray" choices before you try an entire campaign. That way you can see how your players react before you commit yourself (to the campaign, or to a mental ward!).
Grayson
10-21-04, 02:32 AM If anything, try a side quest with "shades of gray" choices before you try an entire campaign. That way you can see how your players react before you commit yourself (to the campaign, or to a mental ward!).

Excellent advice there.

A morally ambiguous campaign could be a lot of fun... if it's done well, and if the players are into it.
FriendoftheDork
10-21-04, 08:22 AM one way to do this is to make subtle changes to the world in regard to good and evil. Initially, use the player's metgame thinking against them. They'll probably think that orcs and vampires are evil, that Cormyr (or perhaps keoland in greyhawk?) is good.

Then, give hints that things may not be what they seem, perhaps the PCs faces a nonevil vampire that has to feed on humans to sustain itself, the merciless slaughter of the orc noncombatants after a battle by humans, use of torture and coercion against those who oppose "the good guys", perhaps even making war on another human nation just because they will not follow their lead to destroy some evil force.

But if you make the good guys bad guys and the bad guys good, you're not making grey just painting things in an different pattern of black and white. Don't make the "good" kingdom evil. Show some who believes in it's ideals and strives to uphold them as well, if you want them to stay aligned with this nation.

Allow the PCs to show what they're taught. Don't expect them to feel guilty when they burn your good vampire at the stake. if that's what they think is good. Just give them some hints that could make them question themselves, such as "why did the vampire let us live when he defeated us, why didn't he drain us dry?" or "why did the vampire order me not to kill anyone when I was dominated?"

The players have the choise of either listen to this nagging voice and, ignore it and stick to their beliefs (easy way), become disillusioned and quit working for the "good" nation, perhaps even joining evil, or continue fighting for the old ideals yet trying correct the wrongs in the process.

None of these choises are "wrong" in the RP sense. Although beware of the party becoming opposed to one another.
Too busy
10-21-04, 09:43 AM In my experience, adding gray is not that difficult since, more often than not, that gray area lies in PCs as well. Thus, create a situation in which completing a task could be next to impossible (but NOT impossible) without using draconic measures (burning infected village, for example) or confront them with villain NPCs that have lovely families or great respect in the community (we know that our mayor is follower of the evil deity, but he did nothing but good for our city). Trick is not to create black and white characters and situations - the grayness will come by it self.
Another approach is to use conflict between i.e human cities/kingdoms/empires over some critical resource (food, water suply, access to sea port). In conflict such as that one, every side would not frown upon using not-so-good strategies in order to win. Party, on the other hand, would have plenty of opportunities to choose which level of gray they prefer or they can try to figure out another way of handling situation. Be carefull with this, since choosing the right path could split party (or end in bloodbath in my experience).
MarkB
10-21-04, 10:15 AM If you do go with such a campaign, just make sure in advance that your players' characters are suited to a shades-of-grey environment. Paladins are the obvious problem here - they're simply not allowed to be grey to any meaningful extent, so expecting a player to play one that way - especially if you start the campaign as regular black-and-white - would be unfair. However, other characters may just as easily have self-imposed limits on their range of actions that are just as restrictive, and you can't expect players to significantly alter their PCs' personality once the game is well underway.
FriendoftheDork
10-21-04, 10:28 AM actually. a paladin could be quite fun to play in a situation such as I described. But with the wrong choises he could easily become fallen, when they fall they fall hard!

The paladin way should be to continue fighting for the ideals and opposing those who would pervert it. When the pally aids in murdering the orc children he feels he's loosing his powers while the fightert is oblivious to his corruption.

Of course, in such a game good/evil cannot be completely relative, unless each god has different morals, in which case paladins of different religions with the same alignment could be bitter enemies...hmmm.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr. Bludgeon 10-20-04, 11:06 PM	I will start my campaign in a little while, but in the meantime, I want to plan out parts of my campaign. I want my campaign to start out as clear cut black & white, but then I want it to turn very gray, and really see how the players handel this, and how they effect the world. I want to know, how would I add the gray? A friend of mine (bobothehobo8 here) gave me the suggestion of the characters think they are doing good, but it turns out that they are doing evil for a very evil person using them to further his own ends. I just want to look at all my choices before deciding how to do it, thanx in advance!
Stormbright 10-20-04, 11:21 PM	This is generally a bad idea unless you've got mature players. I just want to recommend against it, because you'd be suprised how quickly it becomes unfun. An old DM had us hired by an evil wizard from first level, and as we learned that he was evil, we were continually coerced into fulfilling his ends anyway. The campaign was written for us to continue, and I seriously doubt that the DM had anything different written. At which point, we decided that infinite draws from the Deck of Many Things was preferable than completing the campaign.
Melpomene 10-20-04, 11:28 PM	Well, in my grey campaign, I pit two non-evil forces against each other. In my case they're CG and LN respectively, but any non-evil will do. There's much grey there. Also, things like villians who are products of circumstances, good people behaving badly, and the forces of nature and nuetrality can blur lines.
Gryllmyre 10-21-04, 12:15 AM	Personally, I think accomplishing a few tasks for an evil side, then finding out they are evil and confronting them, then having to stop them from fulfilling their evil plot can make for an exciting storyline, IF it is executed correctly. After the realization and first confrontation, the key evil ones could escape, forcing the PC's to find them before it's too late. If you're just wanting the campaign to be a 'pick whatever side you want' kind of thing, I'd have a hard time imagining a story style I'd enjoy.
Iyestorm 10-21-04, 12:23 AM	Skewed alignment villains are good for this. Make a villain who thinks he/she/it's doing the right thing.
Callista 10-21-04, 12:36 AM	Try villains who are not truly evil. Perhaps a misguided LN or CN villain, or even some flavor of Good who is doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Involve Evil-aligned noncombatants, Good-aligned members of normally evil races, and other such "exceptions to the rule". In moderation: Choices which ask the PCs to pick "the lesser evil". For example, give them the opportunity to team up with one evil-aligned group in order to defeat another. If you give them two truly horrible choices, though, don't be surprised if they pick option C (in fact, you should have an option C prepared; forcing PCs into evil acts is bad DMing). You could give them the option to help an evil-aligned society. Perhaps a nearby orc (or other Often Evil monster) tribe is being felled by a deadly disease--do they help, knowing that there probably non-evil orcs in the tribe? Or do they allow the orcs to die, knowing that many evil creatures will die along with the few non-evil? I do need to caution you, though. If you are a new DM or they are new players, don't try any shades-of-gray adventures quite yet. D&D lends itself much less handily to "hard choices" morality than the easy black-and-white fantasy universe it was built for. If anything, try a side quest with "shades of gray" choices before you try an entire campaign. That way you can see how your players react before you commit yourself (to the campaign, or to a mental ward!).
Grayson 10-21-04, 02:32 AM	If anything, try a side quest with "shades of gray" choices before you try an entire campaign. That way you can see how your players react before you commit yourself (to the campaign, or to a mental ward!). Excellent advice there. A morally ambiguous campaign could be a lot of fun... if it's done well, and if the players are into it.
FriendoftheDork 10-21-04, 08:22 AM	one way to do this is to make subtle changes to the world in regard to good and evil. Initially, use the player's metgame thinking against them. They'll probably think that orcs and vampires are evil, that Cormyr (or perhaps keoland in greyhawk?) is good. Then, give hints that things may not be what they seem, perhaps the PCs faces a nonevil vampire that has to feed on humans to sustain itself, the merciless slaughter of the orc noncombatants after a battle by humans, use of torture and coercion against those who oppose "the good guys", perhaps even making war on another human nation just because they will not follow their lead to destroy some evil force. But if you make the good guys bad guys and the bad guys good, you're not making grey just painting things in an different pattern of black and white. Don't make the "good" kingdom evil. Show some who believes in it's ideals and strives to uphold them as well, if you want them to stay aligned with this nation. Allow the PCs to show what they're taught. Don't expect them to feel guilty when they burn your good vampire at the stake. if that's what they think is good. Just give them some hints that could make them question themselves, such as "why did the vampire let us live when he defeated us, why didn't he drain us dry?" or "why did the vampire order me not to kill anyone when I was dominated?" The players have the choise of either listen to this nagging voice and, ignore it and stick to their beliefs (easy way), become disillusioned and quit working for the "good" nation, perhaps even joining evil, or continue fighting for the old ideals yet trying correct the wrongs in the process. None of these choises are "wrong" in the RP sense. Although beware of the party becoming opposed to one another.
Too busy 10-21-04, 09:43 AM	In my experience, adding gray is not that difficult since, more often than not, that gray area lies in PCs as well. Thus, create a situation in which completing a task could be next to impossible (but NOT impossible) without using draconic measures (burning infected village, for example) or confront them with villain NPCs that have lovely families or great respect in the community (we know that our mayor is follower of the evil deity, but he did nothing but good for our city). Trick is not to create black and white characters and situations - the grayness will come by it self. Another approach is to use conflict between i.e human cities/kingdoms/empires over some critical resource (food, water suply, access to sea port). In conflict such as that one, every side would not frown upon using not-so-good strategies in order to win. Party, on the other hand, would have plenty of opportunities to choose which level of gray they prefer or they can try to figure out another way of handling situation. Be carefull with this, since choosing the right path could split party (or end in bloodbath in my experience).
MarkB 10-21-04, 10:15 AM	If you do go with such a campaign, just make sure in advance that your players' characters are suited to a shades-of-grey environment. Paladins are the obvious problem here - they're simply not allowed to be grey to any meaningful extent, so expecting a player to play one that way - especially if you start the campaign as regular black-and-white - would be unfair. However, other characters may just as easily have self-imposed limits on their range of actions that are just as restrictive, and you can't expect players to significantly alter their PCs' personality once the game is well underway.
FriendoftheDork 10-21-04, 10:28 AM	actually. a paladin could be quite fun to play in a situation such as I described. But with the wrong choises he could easily become fallen, when they fall they fall hard! The paladin way should be to continue fighting for the ideals and opposing those who would pervert it. When the pally aids in murdering the orc children he feels he's loosing his powers while the fightert is oblivious to his corruption. Of course, in such a game good/evil cannot be completely relative, unless each god has different morals, in which case paladins of different religions with the same alignment could be bitter enemies...hmmm.