Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zeroghost 08-20-05, 12:55 AM	Well I said earlier I had a player who wanted grafts etc. and I don't feel fair by just telling him no but I am gonna make some limits to them if I cant find anything. I have so many books but I cant find anything that puts a limit on these grafts and honestly it wouldnt be all that hard for an evil guy to get them. Just wondering if there are any rules out there I can use without seeming like I can't take him making such a powerful guy cause he is using that and blackblood cultist which ends up letting him get 9 attacks without any magic at all. And on top of it he will deal dmg with all attacks by making a cheese grapple check. Black blood cultist is inchamps. of ruin or lords of darkness i believe. pretty nasty. that and hes a goliath with grappling feats etc. combined with these tentacles that give him 3 extra attacks total and the class feature for bbc will allow him to deal damage with all natural wpns by making one grapple check, oh yeah it gives you rend too. but ultimately i can deal with this just wondered if I was missing a rule somewhere about grafts and such.
LCD2YOU 08-20-05, 01:14 AM	Check out "Acolyte of Skin" or something like that. It's in "Complete Arcana".
MinusInnocence 08-20-05, 06:43 AM	It sounds like your player has uncovered the potential for extreme abuse, if you're both reading the rules for grafts correctly. What's so wrong, in this situation, to simply refuse any grafts in your game? Have you already introduced NPCs with grafts? Are they common knowledge in your campaign setting? If the player just saw something cool in a book and thought it would help flesh out a concept, but you're afraid it will disrupt game balance... don't allow it. Just because it's been published doesn't mean it's legitimate, or right for your game.
Pippa 08-20-05, 01:56 PM	What's grafts?
Astinex 08-20-05, 02:34 PM	What's grafts? You cut off a body part, and then graft a body part from another being to your stump. (i.e. Humans with tentacles, Orcs with crab like pincers for hands, just about any abomination you can imagine.)
NinjaE 08-20-05, 02:51 PM	Hm. I don't know the rules for grafts, but couldn't you do something like the Half-golem when grafting them? That is, a will save vs constant homicidal madness.
Verelor 08-20-05, 03:10 PM	Grafs...This is serious Book of Vile Darkness stuff :rolleyes:
WCH 08-20-05, 11:44 PM	Fiend Folio, actually. :P
Pippa 08-21-05, 05:52 AM	You cut off a body part, and then graft a body part from another being to your stump. (i.e. Humans with tentacles, Orcs with crab like pincers for hands, just about any abomination you can imagine.) Eww momma, that's just plain foul. Sounds like someone tinkering with his miniatures to me. In answer to the initial post: You could, if you want to put a limit on his grafts, simply say he has to get them done in game, while your campaign is running. And then take care of him finding not to many tentacled monsters and such, or that there just aren't many good conditions in which to perform such an "operation". Make sure you keep control.
Pippa 08-21-05, 05:55 AM	What's Blackblood cultist?
Nirako 08-21-05, 09:40 AM	Fiend Folio, actually. :PAnd the Libre Mortis. But that only has grafts from undead, like Mohrg Tongue. If this player is a competent roleplayer and your game isn't kick in the door exclusively, I would suggest a reasonable drawback. The Mohrg tongue may cause penalties on checks that require talking, or even Arcane Spell Failure for spells with verbal components. Tentacles or Pincers make normally simple things like putting on armor without help much more difficult, even simple stuff like padded. The list can go on.
Schmendrick 08-21-05, 12:12 PM	Um, grafts do cost money. And they ain't cheap. Really, grafts aren't all that different from any other magic item; they're just a little more attached to you (sorry, couldn't think of any other wording). Many of them also have drawbacks to them (certainly almost all of them will impose a circumstance penalty on pretty much any interaction check, and particularly horrible grafts carry the intrinsic risk of getting you targeted for destruction as an abomination). And, though AFAIK it's not in the RAW, grafts are often essentially slotted items; you only have so many arms, legs, eyes, etc. to replace. You could further rule that grafted eyes take up a goggles/lenses slot, or that skin takes up a vest slot, an arm a ring and glove slot, and that grafting a leg (or both) keeps you from benefiting from magical boots (and so on). If you do that, I'd recommend allowing the Epic feat for extra magic item slots pre-epic as applied only to graft/item usage. To further limit them, though, remember that if he wants to get grafts he's going to have to find someone to grant them (and possibly locate the component parts). It takes a feat, and people capable of performing the graft are probably not all that common. And again, it's not like you're required to even have grafts in your campaign. It sounds like you want to cater to this guy, and that's cool, but remember that you don't have to.
Luminous Crayon 08-21-05, 04:49 PM	I don't feel fair by just telling him noThere's your problem, right there. Sometimes it's best to simply say no.
Lord Schpungus 08-21-05, 08:55 PM	Don't be a Rules Nazi. Your players will thank you for it. Also, Lords of Madness and Fleshwarper. I think you should suggest that to him.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 08-22-05, 12:50 AM	There's a few Illithid Grafts in Underdark...
psychocow 08-22-05, 02:04 AM	Ok, so I've recently been makign a BBEG fleshwarper and have looked a lot into grafts so heres what I figure so far. A: Grafts are really really expensive. At least ones that do anything useful. The mundane ones are 60k and the really really nice ones are 200k plus. Buying one of these means that one less actual magic item he can afford. If he starts taking too much non GP treasure he won't be able to afford them so don't worry about it the price alone keep him from going outa control. B: Grafts are insanly balanced. Almost to the point where it like a good/bad cursed item. Grafts are very very bad for interaction with regular commoners and most of the major grafts put serious negativ bonus on a character. Like negatives to will saves. Fiendish grafts are the worst because of the saves against commiting an evil act. This is even bad for a evil character because in a touchy situation he doesn't wnat to suddenly do something overtly evil uncontrollably and get killed or ran out of town. C: There is a limit to how far you go with them, considering you have to remove arms and things and start losing your ability to do fine work or walk right. Impose serious skill check penalties if he wants claw hands or something. The only grafts I see might be a little screwy are the beholder eye stalks. But since its limited use per day thats not so bad. Maybe as powerful as some sort of moderately good wand or staff or something. D:Just consider that it require a 10th lvl character or npc to do even the most easy stuff and they usually have to be higher lvl cause it almost requires cleric/wizard multiclassing. Keep this in mind, it has nice flavor but it isn't much better than a lot of wonderous items.
allenchan 08-22-05, 02:09 AM	No idea where you're getting your grafts from, but the ones I know of (Underdark, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness) are all pretty balanced.