black dragon for a party of three? [Archive] - Wizards Community

black dragon for a party of three? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mjolnir
11-25-05, 09:46 PM so, do any of you think (or care) a CR 7 black dragon is too powerful for three ECL 5 characters (aasimar paladin 3/cleric 1, human druid 5, githzerai monk 3)?

i've challenged PC's to "near-death" encounters before, but i'm thinking this may prove too hazardous because of the level-adjusted :rolleyes: members of the group....
....but i really wanted to shake them up! :plotting: :dragon:

how fragile is this party, will they just become meals, or should i be slapped with a dungeon master's guide? :blink: just wanted some input from the collective "behind-the-screen" mind. thanks.
Jaxgaret
11-25-05, 10:06 PM Seems like they're going to get toasted, although that looks like a middlingly powerful group of PCs. How do they normally fare tactically?
Callista
11-25-05, 10:28 PM If they know how to run away and strategize, then I would say this is appropriate for a very hard encounter. They may have to run; they may lose a character; but they should be able to win, given a little luck and some good strategy. And if they try to fight the dragon in its lair, they deserve to die...
mjolnir
11-25-05, 10:36 PM they do alright... the druid has an animal companion (large wolf) that really helps out in the fray, and the monk is untouchable with his high AC and inertial armor psi-like ability. the aasimar is a heavy damage dealer w/ her +1 jovar (a greatsword w/18-20 crit from the planar handbook) and smite evil.

the druid should be more tactical but still has not got the hang of using spells to buff himself during fights - he is being played by a player that only plays rogues much of the time... but i think that my girlfriend has started hinting this to him pretty hard. she is the player of the aasimar and generally plays combat heavy clerics that can truly be forces to reckon w/ on the battlefield! the monk isn't the high damage fighter my friend is used to, but he does well w/ battlefield strategy - i do not fear for him much at all.

i guess i fear for the druid and his unfamiliarity w/ playing a caster that is capable of getting into the thick of things. he has many options for buffing his abilities but often falls back on his animal companion to fight his battles for him, while he flings rocks w/ a +1 sling from the backline.

-there you have it!
Bane
11-25-05, 11:28 PM Dragon wins. If the dragon loses, then you should be smacked with the DMG.

There is no such thing as untouchable. There is untouchable by ____, but you should never fill the blank with "dragon". For example, incorporeal undead are untouchable by those without magic spells or weaponry. Outside of that, there's not much that's truly untouchable. The Black Dragon should win.

If they are fighting the dragon in it's lair, they will be burning spell slots on Water Breathing just to get in. Then they have to find their way through the murky water to the lair. And if the dragon hears them coming, it will go out into the water with it's blindsight, and start using it's acid breath on them. At this point, they need to try to even the odds. That means leaving the water, whether by running away, or by entering the dragon's lair. If they enter the lair, they are dead. Because the dragon will come back, and then they're trapped. And dead. The dragon will use minor spells to keep them from slipping past him (web, grease, etc.), and just go to town on them. If they run, they might survive. But they won't win.

If they are laying a trap for the dragon, then they might be able to win. Maybe. If they're really lucky. But that's the right way to fight a dragon.
obrysii
11-26-05, 12:48 AM CR 7 dragon vs. four lvl 7s = Dragon has a good chance of winning if played properly;
CR 7 dragon vs. three lvl 5s = total party kill
RKane909
11-26-05, 02:11 AM If the PC's know that they are up against a black dragon before hand then I think they should stand a decent chance of winning with minimal losses. Mabye a KO or two.

First off, a CR 7(Juvenile) Black Dragon cannot even cast spells. Though they possess the Darkness spell-like ability. So the PC's won't have to worry about preparing defenses against magic. Secondly, presuming they know a black dragon lurks ahead, the druid should be able to cast Resist Energy(Acid) on three party members(including the animal companion) and Protection from Energy(Acid) on the most vulnerable member, making that PC effectively immune to acid for the duration of the battle. The dragon deals an average of 20 points of damage per breath attack and only 10 points after the -10 for Resist Energy. And that's assuming they failed their save, which, if they succeed, will reduce the average damage to 0 points. And even then the dragons breath only travels in a line, so if the PC's aren't idiots they can maneuver so that no more that 2 characters are hit with a breath attack at any one time while staying within 10 or 15 ft of each other.

Add protection from evil, bless, bane, flanking, smite evil, etc, etc. And the party stands a very good chance of winning without anyone dying. Though the dragon will still be a melee juggernaut and deal some very heavy damage. But, some people underestimate the tactic of overwhelming numbers and I think that will help them win in the end.
Zombie Carl
11-26-05, 02:31 AM I would pit them against something a little more moderate for now, like a wyvern or something akin to that. Aside from, and this is just my opinion, the dragon should slap them silly, I personally think for an ECL5 party there are plenty of other lower-level beasties that are also cool; if you jump straight into slaying dragons it raises a few problems:

1: How often do you encounter dragons in your world? It's not like they are ten a penny normally. Letting them slay one this early should really drop the % of dragons in your world by a fair amount. If my party were to slay one of the dragons they have met, it would be 33% of all the dragons they know about.

2: Dragons are the stuff of legend. In fact, being one of the hallmarks of this game, then slaying one when they are only level 5 really seems like they have peaked too early. You don't want to put them against their 5th dragon to be greeted by a "oh another dragon, no problem" from the party. There isn't much that is cooler than a dragon, and being a dragonslayer. A paladin walking into down lugging the severed head of a black dragon just oozes prestige, does it not?

3: If I were DM'ing, the death of a dragon is a fairly major occurance. Other dragons in the area might get wind of the party throwing their weight around, and go stop them. Of course, this is up to you, but to maintain a realistic game world, it probably would happen. See www.eviloverlord.com for more reasons a smart BBEG doesn't just let uppity PC's get away with this. :)

I have a party of ECL15 running around now, and they are still yet to fight a dragon, although it is very much on the cards now. This is something they have really been looking forward to, so I have been deliberately procrastinating on it, not presenting them with dragons who are just easy meals so they can meet the dragon, get told to **** off, then **** off and come back when they are hard as nails for a massively climactic fight.

As I suggested, at this level I would use some kind of dragon-kin or another legendary beast, say a Manticore or Chimera of whatever CR as a nice hefty fight. It is a monster they will know and want to slay, without taking away from one of the great challenges of the game.
Boshi
11-26-05, 04:01 AM In the last game I DMed, the party of 3 2nd level people went up against a 5th level guy with plenty of henchmen and survived. It gave them a lot of fun with the (WTF!?! He's not dead yet, moments).

Putting the players up against someone out of their leage can be a lot of fun since if forces them to do a lot of advance planning (the PCs set up an ingenious ambush with improvised murder holes and everything) and into roleplaying in order to get allies to use as fodder (the PCs wouldn't have been able to clean out the baddies' base without getting a number of allies on board through some pretty intelligent politics). Give 'em the dragon, a good hard enemey can really bring out the best in players as long as you make sure to stack the card right so that the players will have the chance to get all kinds of situational advantages if they're smart.

Now that they're 3rd level I'm going to throw some Yuan-ti at my party and I'm sure they'll pull through with only some red shirts dieing...
Lord Ian Stark
11-26-05, 09:21 AM Well two of the party members are at a lack of hit points due to there LA races so that is a big problem for them.

I'd say if they knew they were going to go up against him they can prepare to fight him ahead of time or go around him. Otherwise if they are attacked without preperation they will probrably get beat depending on how you play the dragon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mjolnir 11-25-05, 09:46 PM	so, do any of you think (or care) a CR 7 black dragon is too powerful for three ECL 5 characters (aasimar paladin 3/cleric 1, human druid 5, githzerai monk 3)? i've challenged PC's to "near-death" encounters before, but i'm thinking this may prove too hazardous because of the level-adjusted :rolleyes: members of the group.... ....but i really wanted to shake them up! :plotting: :dragon: how fragile is this party, will they just become meals, or should i be slapped with a dungeon master's guide? :blink: just wanted some input from the collective "behind-the-screen" mind. thanks.
Jaxgaret 11-25-05, 10:06 PM	Seems like they're going to get toasted, although that looks like a middlingly powerful group of PCs. How do they normally fare tactically?
Callista 11-25-05, 10:28 PM	If they know how to run away and strategize, then I would say this is appropriate for a very hard encounter. They may have to run; they may lose a character; but they should be able to win, given a little luck and some good strategy. And if they try to fight the dragon in its lair, they deserve to die...
mjolnir 11-25-05, 10:36 PM	they do alright... the druid has an animal companion (large wolf) that really helps out in the fray, and the monk is untouchable with his high AC and inertial armor psi-like ability. the aasimar is a heavy damage dealer w/ her +1 jovar (a greatsword w/18-20 crit from the planar handbook) and smite evil. the druid should be more tactical but still has not got the hang of using spells to buff himself during fights - he is being played by a player that only plays rogues much of the time... but i think that my girlfriend has started hinting this to him pretty hard. she is the player of the aasimar and generally plays combat heavy clerics that can truly be forces to reckon w/ on the battlefield! the monk isn't the high damage fighter my friend is used to, but he does well w/ battlefield strategy - i do not fear for him much at all. i guess i fear for the druid and his unfamiliarity w/ playing a caster that is capable of getting into the thick of things. he has many options for buffing his abilities but often falls back on his animal companion to fight his battles for him, while he flings rocks w/ a +1 sling from the backline. -there you have it!
Bane 11-25-05, 11:28 PM	Dragon wins. If the dragon loses, then you should be smacked with the DMG. There is no such thing as untouchable. There is untouchable by ____, but you should never fill the blank with "dragon". For example, incorporeal undead are untouchable by those without magic spells or weaponry. Outside of that, there's not much that's truly untouchable. The Black Dragon should win. If they are fighting the dragon in it's lair, they will be burning spell slots on Water Breathing just to get in. Then they have to find their way through the murky water to the lair. And if the dragon hears them coming, it will go out into the water with it's blindsight, and start using it's acid breath on them. At this point, they need to try to even the odds. That means leaving the water, whether by running away, or by entering the dragon's lair. If they enter the lair, they are dead. Because the dragon will come back, and then they're trapped. And dead. The dragon will use minor spells to keep them from slipping past him (web, grease, etc.), and just go to town on them. If they run, they might survive. But they won't win. If they are laying a trap for the dragon, then they might be able to win. Maybe. If they're really lucky. But that's the right way to fight a dragon.
obrysii 11-26-05, 12:48 AM	CR 7 dragon vs. four lvl 7s = Dragon has a good chance of winning if played properly; CR 7 dragon vs. three lvl 5s = total party kill
RKane909 11-26-05, 02:11 AM	If the PC's know that they are up against a black dragon before hand then I think they should stand a decent chance of winning with minimal losses. Mabye a KO or two. First off, a CR 7(Juvenile) Black Dragon cannot even cast spells. Though they possess the Darkness spell-like ability. So the PC's won't have to worry about preparing defenses against magic. Secondly, presuming they know a black dragon lurks ahead, the druid should be able to cast Resist Energy(Acid) on three party members(including the animal companion) and Protection from Energy(Acid) on the most vulnerable member, making that PC effectively immune to acid for the duration of the battle. The dragon deals an average of 20 points of damage per breath attack and only 10 points after the -10 for Resist Energy. And that's assuming they failed their save, which, if they succeed, will reduce the average damage to 0 points. And even then the dragons breath only travels in a line, so if the PC's aren't idiots they can maneuver so that no more that 2 characters are hit with a breath attack at any one time while staying within 10 or 15 ft of each other. Add protection from evil, bless, bane, flanking, smite evil, etc, etc. And the party stands a very good chance of winning without anyone dying. Though the dragon will still be a melee juggernaut and deal some very heavy damage. But, some people underestimate the tactic of overwhelming numbers and I think that will help them win in the end.
Zombie Carl 11-26-05, 02:31 AM	I would pit them against something a little more moderate for now, like a wyvern or something akin to that. Aside from, and this is just my opinion, the dragon should slap them silly, I personally think for an ECL5 party there are plenty of other lower-level beasties that are also cool; if you jump straight into slaying dragons it raises a few problems: 1: How often do you encounter dragons in your world? It's not like they are ten a penny normally. Letting them slay one this early should really drop the % of dragons in your world by a fair amount. If my party were to slay one of the dragons they have met, it would be 33% of all the dragons they know about. 2: Dragons are the stuff of legend. In fact, being one of the hallmarks of this game, then slaying one when they are only level 5 really seems like they have peaked too early. You don't want to put them against their 5th dragon to be greeted by a "oh another dragon, no problem" from the party. There isn't much that is cooler than a dragon, and being a dragonslayer. A paladin walking into down lugging the severed head of a black dragon just oozes prestige, does it not? 3: If I were DM'ing, the death of a dragon is a fairly major occurance. Other dragons in the area might get wind of the party throwing their weight around, and go stop them. Of course, this is up to you, but to maintain a realistic game world, it probably would happen. See www.eviloverlord.com for more reasons a smart BBEG doesn't just let uppity PC's get away with this. :) I have a party of ECL15 running around now, and they are still yet to fight a dragon, although it is very much on the cards now. This is something they have really been looking forward to, so I have been deliberately procrastinating on it, not presenting them with dragons who are just easy meals so they can meet the dragon, get told to ** off, then ** off and come back when they are hard as nails for a massively climactic fight. As I suggested, at this level I would use some kind of dragon-kin or another legendary beast, say a Manticore or Chimera of whatever CR as a nice hefty fight. It is a monster they will know and want to slay, without taking away from one of the great challenges of the game.
Boshi 11-26-05, 04:01 AM	In the last game I DMed, the party of 3 2nd level people went up against a 5th level guy with plenty of henchmen and survived. It gave them a lot of fun with the (WTF!?! He's not dead yet, moments). Putting the players up against someone out of their leage can be a lot of fun since if forces them to do a lot of advance planning (the PCs set up an ingenious ambush with improvised murder holes and everything) and into roleplaying in order to get allies to use as fodder (the PCs wouldn't have been able to clean out the baddies' base without getting a number of allies on board through some pretty intelligent politics). Give 'em the dragon, a good hard enemey can really bring out the best in players as long as you make sure to stack the card right so that the players will have the chance to get all kinds of situational advantages if they're smart. Now that they're 3rd level I'm going to throw some Yuan-ti at my party and I'm sure they'll pull through with only some red shirts dieing...
Lord Ian Stark 11-26-05, 09:21 AM	Well two of the party members are at a lack of hit points due to there LA races so that is a big problem for them. I'd say if they knew they were going to go up against him they can prepare to fight him ahead of time or go around him. Otherwise if they are attacked without preperation they will probrably get beat depending on how you play the dragon.