Black Dragon Wyrm (Boss Balance) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Black Dragon Wyrm (Boss Balance) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AdenThornwood
04-27-08, 11:19 PM I currently have a group of six players going through my campaign at the time. They all have PHB classes, and by the end of the campaign I plan on throwing in a black dragon wyrm as the final boss. By the time they battle the dragon, they should all be level 12.

The group is currently averaging level 5, so they have yet to decide on multi-classing, prestige classes, etc. The members included are listed below;

Kyley (Half-Elf Fighter) - Plans to stay a Fighter from what I know of.
Tanya (Human Monk/Djinni Bloodline (Variant Rules))
Martin (Human Cleric)
Saia (Vampire Elf Druid)
Char (Human Sorceror) - Working to become a Bronze Dragon Disciple.
Raynor (Human Rogue) - Working to become a Shadowdancer.

According to previous calculations, the party averaging level 12 would spend 1/4 of their daily resources defeating a CR 18 creature. A black dragon wyrm is a CR 20 creature, which is only 2 steps above 18.

Would a black dragon wyrm be too powerful? Do I need to give the party more magical items before facing him? Do I need to lower the difficulty of this encounter? Please post feedback.
Dash Branaghan
04-27-08, 11:28 PM Hmmm...my understanding of CR (and I may be mistaken or it may have changed) is that a CR 12 creature will cause a party of 4 PCs of 12th level to expend 1/4 of their available resources.

Tossing in another PC would raise their CR to 14 IIRC. A sixth would make it 16. Basically two CR rankings per PC. So I think, IIRC, your challenge is actually 4 CR beyond them...doable, but probable TPK.

Looking at the class combinations, I see problems - the monk and rogue are probably useless unless they can fly, the fighter is useless unless they are ranged weapons specialist, the sorceror and Druid are probably your best bets and will be eaten first, and all your spellcasters are somewhat boned by the creatures Spell Resistance.

I might have missed something, but your PCs at my guess are going to taste awfully good.
AdenThornwood
04-27-08, 11:33 PM Hmmm...my understanding of CR (and I may be mistaken or it may have changed) is that a CR 12 creature will cause a party of 4 PCs of 12th level to expend 1/4 of their available resources.

Tossing in another PC would raise their CR to 14 IIRC. A sixth would make it 16. Basically two CR rankings per PC. So I think, IIRC, your challenge is actually 4 CR beyond them...doable, but probable TPK.

Looking at the class combinations, I see problems - the monk and rogue are probably useless unless they can fly, the fighter is useless unless they are ranged weapons specialist, the sorceror and Druid are probably your best bets and will be eaten first, and all your spellcasters are somewhat boned by the creatures Spell Resistance.

I might have missed something, but your PCs at my guess are going to taste awfully good.

How I calculated it, I simply added their class levels together and divided by 4. From these calculations, I set up encounters equal to the result. With two level 4's, three level 5's, and one ECL 9 (the vampire), the party could wipe out a CR 10 Guardian Naga in 3 rounds (with magical weapons).

EDIT: The result that I based the current encounters on (sum of party's class levels / 4) was equal to 8.
StevenO
04-28-08, 01:55 PM As long as the Dragon is played intelligently it should wipe the floor against six level 12 PC who'd otherwise fall within the standard parameters. By "standard parameters" I mean the PCs wealth by level is close to accurate and they have starting stats in the 25-30 point buy range.

I figure the parties four man ECL the same way I'd figure EL for multiple creatures. Valueing a four person party at level value doubling that number should give them a +2 ECL so only having two extras would be +1. That would mean a group of six 12th level characters should handle encounters like a party of 13th level characters. For 13th level characters a CR 17 should be a dire threat so going to CR 20 should be TPK. An important consideration when using increased EL because of party size is that the actual creatures used should be appropriate for the actual party level; this means 12th level characters shouldn't face individuals greater than CR 16 meaning you should you other creatures to boost the EL.

Looking at the party makeup the VAMPIRE draws immediate attention. The problem is you can't really have one in even a 12th level party. A creature needs to have 5 HD to become a vampire and when you add the +8 Level Adjustment that makes that character a minimum ECL 13. Now if this character actually had 12 levels that would make it ECL 20 which should theoretically be a match against your CR 20 dragon but is does outclass all the other PCs put together.
iserith
04-28-08, 02:10 PM I'm forced to agree. Unless your PCs are exceptionally prepared and optimized with at least some kind of terrain advantage on the dragon, they are most likely going to be wyrmfood.

Try a younger dragon with an awesome lair, one that complements both flying, swimming, and darkness... perhaps an underground crevasse cut by a sluggish river, the mouth of which is a fouled spring in which the dragon makes his home. A network of interconnecting tunnels runs on both sides of the crevasse like some kind of insect nest, allowing him to take cover from the PCs while still maneuvering to outflank them from a different direction. The spring itself also conceals a tunnel that leads elsewhere (the source of the spring) and can be used as an escape route should things go south.

With a proper lair - or at least proper minions (or both) - you can challenge your PCs with a younger black dragon and still get the desired effect.
Magrus
04-28-08, 02:18 PM They're all going to end up screaming "I'm melting!" within 3 rounds. Your druid though. An elven druid is fine. Druids hate undead however. A druid who became a vampire would set itself on fire and roll around in holy water. They don't match. Besides, as stated above, a vampire anything shouldn't be in a 5th level party. Thats a +8 LA. That vampire should be able to waste the entire party on its own.

I would suggest making the druid redo his character, and rethinking whether you want to stick with the Wyrm age category, or the level 12 entry into this encounter. Even so, in all likely hood, a dragon, played properly is probably going to slaughter everyone but your monk if it runs very fast, which is one of the few things its going to be good at. It will be intelligent enough to waste the sorcerer first, and then target the cleric. Then maul whichever silly humans are poking it with swords.

With the Shape Breath feat, it would spray a cone of acid averaging 44-50 points of damage, with a save DC most of your PCs won't be able to meet. Worse than that, your party will likely crouch in horror when they see it before the thing douses them with acid. Afterwards, it will be able to grapple and chew at its leisure. Your casters will have little chance to harm it with spells. It will cast spells better than everyone in the party. Oh, would this be fun to play out on a bad day.
LordBOB777
04-28-08, 03:01 PM They're all going to end up screaming "I'm melting!" within 3 rounds.

+1

An apparent ECL 12 party shouldnt be able to even come close to defeating this monster.

For starters its normal AC is impressive. lets look at your fighter who probably has a 12 BAB. Lets be generous and say he has a +8 Str Mod. with a +3 weapon.

12+8+3 = +23 to hit against the Dragon's AC of 39. Sure its possible for the fighter to hit, but the odds definantly arent in his favor. Plus this is the AC of a Dragon with no items or spells active.

The rest of the party is going to have a very rough time hurting the Dragon.

Your casters have to bypass SR, which is possible, but again isnt in their favor.

Might i suggest an Old or Very Old Dragon instead
AdenThornwood
04-28-08, 05:54 PM Well, the vampire's ECL will be 12 by the end of the adventure. On the other hand, I had no idea that a vampire required an HD of 5. Currently, the vampire's HD is still 1. I didn't use the MM 3.5 because I didn't have it. I referred to the d20srd, which either had that rule and I missed it, or it just didn't have that rule. Not to mention, the vampire isn't exactly easy to replace since I made the character an important part of the main plotline.

Allow me to explain how the characters are set-up. At character creation, everyone was allowed unlimited rerolls on ability scores until they got a roll above 12. The reason I thought this system was okay was because I was still sort of a newbie at DMing at the time we started the campaign, the players were all new at the time, and we didn't exactly have the most time on our hands when creating characters. The average ability score for a character in our party is around 14 or 12.

Right before the battle, the characters will be aware of the dragon and they will have access to a store full of at least +2 magical weaponry and acid resistant magic armor, not to mention a boat load of cure critical wound potions in stock. Long before this the party encountered a boss with two +2 daggers; one encoated with drow poison, one encoated with wyvern poison.

In addition, the party will have many magic items from past battles; some examples include a +2 spell-storing spiked gauntlet stored with shocking grasp (intended for the monk, but what the hell do I know?), a +2 flaming scythe (for the fighter, who specializes in scythes), and +1 acid resistant hide armor. (BTW, they don't currently have those items. Those are items that I planned for future bosses to use.)

The party will be constantly aided by the persistent presence of the Silver Wings, a mercenary group of paladins and clerics employed by the main city as law enforcement. They will be teleported to the use of devices stolen from the campaign's main villain group.

One more thing to mention is where this battle will take place. From an underground dome, the party will get on a lift after preparing for battle and be escorted to the roof of the tower that they were traveling in. There, the battle will take place. The roof will be very large with a wide space in front for the dragon to fly in from. One advantage to this area is that the tower has iron spikes sticking out of the roof (I'm thinking 4 spikes in the center, a 6 spike 'outer circle', and many more sticking from the sides of the roof) that gives cover from the dragon's line of sight and breath weapon (the iron spikes are about 1 foot in thickness (360 HP) and the dragon's breath weapon can do up to 88 damage).

Lastly, when the dragon is defeated, if I find that the party has been given too much powerful equipment, I will play an event that will somehow force them to lose some of their equipment.

So, with this all together do you think they still stand a chance?

EDIT: I have decided on something. I'm going to cooperatively work a way for my vampire player to still be able to play a vampire (she will simply not have access to some of her special attacks and qualities) and at the end of the game, I will allow the players the choice to fight the dragon or not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AdenThornwood 04-27-08, 11:19 PM	I currently have a group of six players going through my campaign at the time. They all have PHB classes, and by the end of the campaign I plan on throwing in a black dragon wyrm as the final boss. By the time they battle the dragon, they should all be level 12. The group is currently averaging level 5, so they have yet to decide on multi-classing, prestige classes, etc. The members included are listed below; Kyley (Half-Elf Fighter) - Plans to stay a Fighter from what I know of. Tanya (Human Monk/Djinni Bloodline (Variant Rules)) Martin (Human Cleric) Saia (Vampire Elf Druid) Char (Human Sorceror) - Working to become a Bronze Dragon Disciple. Raynor (Human Rogue) - Working to become a Shadowdancer. According to previous calculations, the party averaging level 12 would spend 1/4 of their daily resources defeating a CR 18 creature. A black dragon wyrm is a CR 20 creature, which is only 2 steps above 18. Would a black dragon wyrm be too powerful? Do I need to give the party more magical items before facing him? Do I need to lower the difficulty of this encounter? Please post feedback.
Dash Branaghan 04-27-08, 11:28 PM	Hmmm...my understanding of CR (and I may be mistaken or it may have changed) is that a CR 12 creature will cause a party of 4 PCs of 12th level to expend 1/4 of their available resources. Tossing in another PC would raise their CR to 14 IIRC. A sixth would make it 16. Basically two CR rankings per PC. So I think, IIRC, your challenge is actually 4 CR beyond them...doable, but probable TPK. Looking at the class combinations, I see problems - the monk and rogue are probably useless unless they can fly, the fighter is useless unless they are ranged weapons specialist, the sorceror and Druid are probably your best bets and will be eaten first, and all your spellcasters are somewhat boned by the creatures Spell Resistance. I might have missed something, but your PCs at my guess are going to taste awfully good.
AdenThornwood 04-27-08, 11:33 PM	Hmmm...my understanding of CR (and I may be mistaken or it may have changed) is that a CR 12 creature will cause a party of 4 PCs of 12th level to expend 1/4 of their available resources. Tossing in another PC would raise their CR to 14 IIRC. A sixth would make it 16. Basically two CR rankings per PC. So I think, IIRC, your challenge is actually 4 CR beyond them...doable, but probable TPK. Looking at the class combinations, I see problems - the monk and rogue are probably useless unless they can fly, the fighter is useless unless they are ranged weapons specialist, the sorceror and Druid are probably your best bets and will be eaten first, and all your spellcasters are somewhat boned by the creatures Spell Resistance. I might have missed something, but your PCs at my guess are going to taste awfully good. How I calculated it, I simply added their class levels together and divided by 4. From these calculations, I set up encounters equal to the result. With two level 4's, three level 5's, and one ECL 9 (the vampire), the party could wipe out a CR 10 Guardian Naga in 3 rounds (with magical weapons). EDIT: The result that I based the current encounters on (sum of party's class levels / 4) was equal to 8.
StevenO 04-28-08, 01:55 PM	As long as the Dragon is played intelligently it should wipe the floor against six level 12 PC who'd otherwise fall within the standard parameters. By "standard parameters" I mean the PCs wealth by level is close to accurate and they have starting stats in the 25-30 point buy range. I figure the parties four man ECL the same way I'd figure EL for multiple creatures. Valueing a four person party at level value doubling that number should give them a +2 ECL so only having two extras would be +1. That would mean a group of six 12th level characters should handle encounters like a party of 13th level characters. For 13th level characters a CR 17 should be a dire threat so going to CR 20 should be TPK. An important consideration when using increased EL because of party size is that the actual creatures used should be appropriate for the actual party level; this means 12th level characters shouldn't face individuals greater than CR 16 meaning you should you other creatures to boost the EL. Looking at the party makeup the VAMPIRE draws immediate attention. The problem is you can't really have one in even a 12th level party. A creature needs to have 5 HD to become a vampire and when you add the +8 Level Adjustment that makes that character a minimum ECL 13. Now if this character actually had 12 levels that would make it ECL 20 which should theoretically be a match against your CR 20 dragon but is does outclass all the other PCs put together.
iserith 04-28-08, 02:10 PM	I'm forced to agree. Unless your PCs are exceptionally prepared and optimized with at least some kind of terrain advantage on the dragon, they are most likely going to be wyrmfood. Try a younger dragon with an awesome lair, one that complements both flying, swimming, and darkness... perhaps an underground crevasse cut by a sluggish river, the mouth of which is a fouled spring in which the dragon makes his home. A network of interconnecting tunnels runs on both sides of the crevasse like some kind of insect nest, allowing him to take cover from the PCs while still maneuvering to outflank them from a different direction. The spring itself also conceals a tunnel that leads elsewhere (the source of the spring) and can be used as an escape route should things go south. With a proper lair - or at least proper minions (or both) - you can challenge your PCs with a younger black dragon and still get the desired effect.
Magrus 04-28-08, 02:18 PM	They're all going to end up screaming "I'm melting!" within 3 rounds. Your druid though. An elven druid is fine. Druids hate undead however. A druid who became a vampire would set itself on fire and roll around in holy water. They don't match. Besides, as stated above, a vampire anything shouldn't be in a 5th level party. Thats a +8 LA. That vampire should be able to waste the entire party on its own. I would suggest making the druid redo his character, and rethinking whether you want to stick with the Wyrm age category, or the level 12 entry into this encounter. Even so, in all likely hood, a dragon, played properly is probably going to slaughter everyone but your monk if it runs very fast, which is one of the few things its going to be good at. It will be intelligent enough to waste the sorcerer first, and then target the cleric. Then maul whichever silly humans are poking it with swords. With the Shape Breath feat, it would spray a cone of acid averaging 44-50 points of damage, with a save DC most of your PCs won't be able to meet. Worse than that, your party will likely crouch in horror when they see it before the thing douses them with acid. Afterwards, it will be able to grapple and chew at its leisure. Your casters will have little chance to harm it with spells. It will cast spells better than everyone in the party. Oh, would this be fun to play out on a bad day.
LordBOB777 04-28-08, 03:01 PM	They're all going to end up screaming "I'm melting!" within 3 rounds. +1 An apparent ECL 12 party shouldnt be able to even come close to defeating this monster. For starters its normal AC is impressive. lets look at your fighter who probably has a 12 BAB. Lets be generous and say he has a +8 Str Mod. with a +3 weapon. 12+8+3 = +23 to hit against the Dragon's AC of 39. Sure its possible for the fighter to hit, but the odds definantly arent in his favor. Plus this is the AC of a Dragon with no items or spells active. The rest of the party is going to have a very rough time hurting the Dragon. Your casters have to bypass SR, which is possible, but again isnt in their favor. Might i suggest an Old or Very Old Dragon instead
AdenThornwood 04-28-08, 05:54 PM	Well, the vampire's ECL will be 12 by the end of the adventure. On the other hand, I had no idea that a vampire required an HD of 5. Currently, the vampire's HD is still 1. I didn't use the MM 3.5 because I didn't have it. I referred to the d20srd, which either had that rule and I missed it, or it just didn't have that rule. Not to mention, the vampire isn't exactly easy to replace since I made the character an important part of the main plotline. Allow me to explain how the characters are set-up. At character creation, everyone was allowed unlimited rerolls on ability scores until they got a roll above 12. The reason I thought this system was okay was because I was still sort of a newbie at DMing at the time we started the campaign, the players were all new at the time, and we didn't exactly have the most time on our hands when creating characters. The average ability score for a character in our party is around 14 or 12. Right before the battle, the characters will be aware of the dragon and they will have access to a store full of at least +2 magical weaponry and acid resistant magic armor, not to mention a boat load of cure critical wound potions in stock. Long before this the party encountered a boss with two +2 daggers; one encoated with drow poison, one encoated with wyvern poison. In addition, the party will have many magic items from past battles; some examples include a +2 spell-storing spiked gauntlet stored with shocking grasp (intended for the monk, but what the hell do I know?), a +2 flaming scythe (for the fighter, who specializes in scythes), and +1 acid resistant hide armor. (BTW, they don't currently have those items. Those are items that I planned for future bosses to use.) The party will be constantly aided by the persistent presence of the Silver Wings, a mercenary group of paladins and clerics employed by the main city as law enforcement. They will be teleported to the use of devices stolen from the campaign's main villain group. One more thing to mention is where this battle will take place. From an underground dome, the party will get on a lift after preparing for battle and be escorted to the roof of the tower that they were traveling in. There, the battle will take place. The roof will be very large with a wide space in front for the dragon to fly in from. One advantage to this area is that the tower has iron spikes sticking out of the roof (I'm thinking 4 spikes in the center, a 6 spike 'outer circle', and many more sticking from the sides of the roof) that gives cover from the dragon's line of sight and breath weapon (the iron spikes are about 1 foot in thickness (360 HP) and the dragon's breath weapon can do up to 88 damage). Lastly, when the dragon is defeated, if I find that the party has been given too much powerful equipment, I will play an event that will somehow force them to lose some of their equipment. So, with this all together do you think they still stand a chance? EDIT: I have decided on something. I'm going to cooperatively work a way for my vampire player to still be able to play a vampire (she will simply not have access to some of her special attacks and qualities) and at the end of the game, I will allow the players the choice to fight the dragon or not.