Black Pudding + Prismatic Bursting weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Black Pudding + Prismatic Bursting weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Feriin
10-23-05, 11:55 PM Ok this happened tonight in our game..

We find a hidden room with an illusionary floor,( well I was the only one to see it was illusionary, the DM asked me not to say anything about. I went along with it for shear comedy value on what I thought was going to happen).

Anyway I was asked,"what do you see?. I said," I see nothing on the walls.". Rogue steps in and falls 20 feet.

At the bottum of this pit was a black pudding,( I jokingly said ah he fell into a gelatinus cube, the DM said," You're not far off.") So this particular Black Pudding is a Huge one. Rogue somehow manages to get back out ( he can fly) and the pudding "chases" him out. The barbarian/frenzied berserker attacks it , cutting off a peice.

Now to the heart of the question..

Our parties Elf fighter/something or other has 2 elven light blades, each one has prismatic burst on it.. This means that when they crit, then confirm the crit the spell prismatic spray goes off..

As for Black puddings when they are hit with peircing or slashing weapons they split up ( not taking any damage).

Now on one of the peices that is broken off ( now only Large) the Weapon crits and prismatic spray goes off. Player rolls a 4 ( I think) and says the pudding needs to make a fort save dc 20 or die.

Here is the question..

Will the Black pudding be able to split again before the crit from the sword ( IE the prismatic Burst) goes off? Remember the weapon in question is a slashing weapon, and the Bursting is a SINGLE target effect, no AE effect on the burst.

I want to know because in the above the pudding failed its save and died, we all had a little trouble figuring out if both peices died or if the pudding was still 1 creature and died, or if it was 2 creatures now and only 1 of them was touching the sword now.
MinusInnocence
10-24-05, 01:11 AM The simple answer to your question is that Oozes, including black puddings (yes, even of Huge size) are immune to critical hits. This also means any weird secondary effect accompanying a critical hit like Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst or, in this case, Prismatic Burst never come into play against Oozes.

Hypothetically, we could try to figure out when the Burst effect occurs; before or after the split. If after the split, it really wouldn't affect any piece, would it? The original creature the critical hit was scored against no longer exists. Instead, there are two smaller creatures. If the Burst occured before the split... well, that seems unlikely, as the catalyst for the Burst was also the catalyst for the split.

I would rule the Pudding, even if it were vulnerable to critical hits, would be immune to any special effects like this Prismatic Burst killing it outright. The creature the Burst may have slain is simply gone by the time the Burst comes into effect.

As an aside... even if the Pudding were susceptible to critical hits and the Prismatic Spray targeted it; and even if the player rolled a 4... the result is "Poison," which Oozes are also immune to. It seems like that elven character with the superduper magic swords is just about the most useless combatant ever against Black Puddings.

I encourage your DM to read up on his monsters' statistics before running another session for you guys.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
10-24-05, 01:17 AM The prismatic spray never would have gone off: Oozes are not subject to critical hits, so bursting effects are never triggered against them.

HOWEVER, there is no official ruling on such a minor facet of the game. At that point, it would be up to the DM to determine the outcome and up to the players to live with the DM's ruling.
Vaelan
10-24-05, 02:13 AM The simple answer to your question is that Oozes, including black puddings (yes, even of Huge size) are immune to critical hits. This also means any weird secondary effect accompanying a critical hit like Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst or, in this case, Prismatic Burst never come into play against Oozes.
The prismatic spray never would have gone off: Oozes are not subject to critical hits, so bursting effects are never triggered against them.
Incorrect. Burst properties trigger even against creatures that are immune to critical hits.

In case either of you are wondering where I pulled this from, it is from page 24 of the official FAQ.
MinusInnocence
10-24-05, 02:19 AM Oh. You know, I do remember reading that. Well, it's good we cleared that up but the Ooze still never should have had to make its Fortitude save against the poison effect.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
10-24-05, 02:45 AM Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me that an ability triggered by hitting a creature in a vital spot should be equally effective against creatures that don't have vital spots. I suppose my ruling is officially a house rule :P
rkr1970
10-24-05, 03:02 AM Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me that an ability triggered by hitting a creature in a vital spot should be equally effective against creatures that don't have vital spots. I suppose my ruling is officially a house rule :P
Actually, the "burst" effect is caused by a blow that strikes the creature in a certain manner that should cause great damage (in the case of an ooze, probably dead center). As for the damage being dealt one side or the other, I would actually rule that it damages both sides. You see, it's not until the blow lands that the magic goes off. But if the ooze splits upon the blow landing, how does it get away from the burst since the burst is probably occuring at exactly the same time that the split occurs. For a damage dealing burst, like flaming, I would roll damage once and apply half to each new pudding. For something like prismatic bursting, I would probably have had the player roll a single effect, and applied it to both sides equally, depending upon what the result was.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
10-24-05, 03:33 AM Actually, the "burst" effect is caused by a blow that strikes the creature in a certain manner that should cause great damage (in the case of an ooze, probably dead center). As for the damage being dealt one side or the other, I would actually rule that it damages both sides. You see, it's not until the blow lands that the magic goes off. But if the ooze splits upon the blow landing, how does it get away from the burst since the burst is probably occuring at exactly the same time that the split occurs. For a damage dealing burst, like flaming, I would roll damage once and apply half to each new pudding. For something like prismatic bursting, I would probably have had the player roll a single effect, and applied it to both sides equally, depending upon what the result was.

That's the thing though... An ooze takes no more damage if you hit it dead center than anywhere else. It has no vital points, no discernable anatomy, no front or back, no head to lop off, no heart to pierce. There isn't anywhere or any particular way to hit an ooze that should do more damage.
Luminosity
10-24-05, 06:40 AM That's the thing though... An ooze takes no more damage if you hit it dead center than anywhere else. It has no vital points, no discernable anatomy, no front or back, no head to lop off, no heart to pierce. There isn't anywhere or any particular way to hit an ooze that should do more damage.Not entirely correct. After all, weapon damage is still variable against them. A long sword will do 1d8 plus bonuses rather than 1 or 8, for example.
Palin the Wizard
10-24-05, 07:12 AM That has to do with how well the weapon strikes the creature, not whether it strikes it in a more "vital" spot.

For instance, if you roll a 1, you only hit the ooze superficially, hardly causing any damage. If you roll an 8, though, your sword hacks right into the ooze, coating the entire blade in its "blood", causing far more damage.

That being said, burst effects have nothing to do with critical hits. They simply activate (or "proc") under the same conditions--rolling a threat, then confirming.
Nevynxxx
10-24-05, 08:05 AM Ignoring the FAQ I would have said that the reason these effects go off on a crit, is that they would be too powerful if they went off every time.

Remember, characters don't know what a crit is, they just know that they can buy this sword that every now ang again does some magic as well as dealing a lot of damager.

At this point the creature being suseptable to crits has nothing to do with the mechanics, as the meachanics just say "It has a 1 in whatever chance, that just happens to be the same as the crit chance, that makes life a bit easier for everyone involved"

As to what it affects in the case of an ooze, I'd say both, as it will still be touching both at the moment it goes off, I would envisage it in slow motion, bursting as the blade slices through.

Since the FAQ gives an answer, that is enough for me though.
ff6shadow
10-24-05, 08:05 AM Sorta out off no where, but what book has this Prismatic Burst property. Sounds like lots of fun.
Millennium
10-24-05, 09:25 AM I've considered allowing "critical effect" rolls for bursting (and similar) weapons even against creatures which are immune to critical hits. The hit itself wouldn't count as a critical hit, but the weapon's effect would be triggered as though a critical hit had just been scored. The idea would be that the effect triggers on particularly mighty blows, as a reflection of the wielder's fighting spirit, even if those blows don't end up hurting the target too much in and of themselves.

I wonder if this nerfs crit-immunity too much, though.
Feriin
10-24-05, 09:25 AM Not sure of the book , I will ask my friend later today (it's his character).
Feriin
10-24-05, 09:28 AM I've considered allowing "critical effect" rolls for bursting (and similar) weapons even against creatures which are immune to critical hits. The hit itself wouldn't count as a critical hit, but the weapon's effect would be triggered as though a critical hit had just been scored. The idea would be that the effect triggers on particularly mighty blows, as a reflection of the wielder's fighting spirit, even if those blows don't end up hurting the target too much in and of themselves.

I wonder if this nerfs crit-immunity too much, though.

Even if a creature is immune to a crit , it can still be hit by the bursting ability of a weapon.. It says so in the Faq on page 24..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Feriin 10-23-05, 11:55 PM	Ok this happened tonight in our game.. We find a hidden room with an illusionary floor,( well I was the only one to see it was illusionary, the DM asked me not to say anything about. I went along with it for shear comedy value on what I thought was going to happen). Anyway I was asked,"what do you see?. I said," I see nothing on the walls.". Rogue steps in and falls 20 feet. At the bottum of this pit was a black pudding,( I jokingly said ah he fell into a gelatinus cube, the DM said," You're not far off.") So this particular Black Pudding is a Huge one. Rogue somehow manages to get back out ( he can fly) and the pudding "chases" him out. The barbarian/frenzied berserker attacks it , cutting off a peice. Now to the heart of the question.. Our parties Elf fighter/something or other has 2 elven light blades, each one has prismatic burst on it.. This means that when they crit, then confirm the crit the spell prismatic spray goes off.. As for Black puddings when they are hit with peircing or slashing weapons they split up ( not taking any damage). Now on one of the peices that is broken off ( now only Large) the Weapon crits and prismatic spray goes off. Player rolls a 4 ( I think) and says the pudding needs to make a fort save dc 20 or die. Here is the question.. Will the Black pudding be able to split again before the crit from the sword ( IE the prismatic Burst) goes off? Remember the weapon in question is a slashing weapon, and the Bursting is a SINGLE target effect, no AE effect on the burst. I want to know because in the above the pudding failed its save and died, we all had a little trouble figuring out if both peices died or if the pudding was still 1 creature and died, or if it was 2 creatures now and only 1 of them was touching the sword now.
MinusInnocence 10-24-05, 01:11 AM	The simple answer to your question is that Oozes, including black puddings (yes, even of Huge size) are immune to critical hits. This also means any weird secondary effect accompanying a critical hit like Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst or, in this case, Prismatic Burst never come into play against Oozes. Hypothetically, we could try to figure out when the Burst effect occurs; before or after the split. If after the split, it really wouldn't affect any piece, would it? The original creature the critical hit was scored against no longer exists. Instead, there are two smaller creatures. If the Burst occured before the split... well, that seems unlikely, as the catalyst for the Burst was also the catalyst for the split. I would rule the Pudding, even if it were vulnerable to critical hits, would be immune to any special effects like this Prismatic Burst killing it outright. The creature the Burst may have slain is simply gone by the time the Burst comes into effect. As an aside... even if the Pudding were susceptible to critical hits and the Prismatic Spray targeted it; and even if the player rolled a 4... the result is "Poison," which Oozes are also immune to. It seems like that elven character with the superduper magic swords is just about the most useless combatant ever against Black Puddings. I encourage your DM to read up on his monsters' statistics before running another session for you guys.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-24-05, 01:17 AM	The prismatic spray never would have gone off: Oozes are not subject to critical hits, so bursting effects are never triggered against them. HOWEVER, there is no official ruling on such a minor facet of the game. At that point, it would be up to the DM to determine the outcome and up to the players to live with the DM's ruling.
Vaelan 10-24-05, 02:13 AM	The simple answer to your question is that Oozes, including black puddings (yes, even of Huge size) are immune to critical hits. This also means any weird secondary effect accompanying a critical hit like Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst or, in this case, Prismatic Burst never come into play against Oozes. The prismatic spray never would have gone off: Oozes are not subject to critical hits, so bursting effects are never triggered against them. Incorrect. Burst properties trigger even against creatures that are immune to critical hits. In case either of you are wondering where I pulled this from, it is from page 24 of the official FAQ.
MinusInnocence 10-24-05, 02:19 AM	Oh. You know, I do remember reading that. Well, it's good we cleared that up but the Ooze still never should have had to make its Fortitude save against the poison effect.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-24-05, 02:45 AM	Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me that an ability triggered by hitting a creature in a vital spot should be equally effective against creatures that don't have vital spots. I suppose my ruling is officially a house rule :P
rkr1970 10-24-05, 03:02 AM	Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me that an ability triggered by hitting a creature in a vital spot should be equally effective against creatures that don't have vital spots. I suppose my ruling is officially a house rule :P Actually, the "burst" effect is caused by a blow that strikes the creature in a certain manner that should cause great damage (in the case of an ooze, probably dead center). As for the damage being dealt one side or the other, I would actually rule that it damages both sides. You see, it's not until the blow lands that the magic goes off. But if the ooze splits upon the blow landing, how does it get away from the burst since the burst is probably occuring at exactly the same time that the split occurs. For a damage dealing burst, like flaming, I would roll damage once and apply half to each new pudding. For something like prismatic bursting, I would probably have had the player roll a single effect, and applied it to both sides equally, depending upon what the result was.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-24-05, 03:33 AM	Actually, the "burst" effect is caused by a blow that strikes the creature in a certain manner that should cause great damage (in the case of an ooze, probably dead center). As for the damage being dealt one side or the other, I would actually rule that it damages both sides. You see, it's not until the blow lands that the magic goes off. But if the ooze splits upon the blow landing, how does it get away from the burst since the burst is probably occuring at exactly the same time that the split occurs. For a damage dealing burst, like flaming, I would roll damage once and apply half to each new pudding. For something like prismatic bursting, I would probably have had the player roll a single effect, and applied it to both sides equally, depending upon what the result was. That's the thing though... An ooze takes no more damage if you hit it dead center than anywhere else. It has no vital points, no discernable anatomy, no front or back, no head to lop off, no heart to pierce. There isn't anywhere or any particular way to hit an ooze that should do more damage.
Luminosity 10-24-05, 06:40 AM	That's the thing though... An ooze takes no more damage if you hit it dead center than anywhere else. It has no vital points, no discernable anatomy, no front or back, no head to lop off, no heart to pierce. There isn't anywhere or any particular way to hit an ooze that should do more damage.Not entirely correct. After all, weapon damage is still variable against them. A long sword will do 1d8 plus bonuses rather than 1 or 8, for example.
Palin the Wizard 10-24-05, 07:12 AM	That has to do with how well the weapon strikes the creature, not whether it strikes it in a more "vital" spot. For instance, if you roll a 1, you only hit the ooze superficially, hardly causing any damage. If you roll an 8, though, your sword hacks right into the ooze, coating the entire blade in its "blood", causing far more damage. That being said, burst effects have nothing to do with critical hits. They simply activate (or "proc") under the same conditions--rolling a threat, then confirming.
Nevynxxx 10-24-05, 08:05 AM	Ignoring the FAQ I would have said that the reason these effects go off on a crit, is that they would be too powerful if they went off every time. Remember, characters don't know what a crit is, they just know that they can buy this sword that every now ang again does some magic as well as dealing a lot of damager. At this point the creature being suseptable to crits has nothing to do with the mechanics, as the meachanics just say "It has a 1 in whatever chance, that just happens to be the same as the crit chance, that makes life a bit easier for everyone involved" As to what it affects in the case of an ooze, I'd say both, as it will still be touching both at the moment it goes off, I would envisage it in slow motion, bursting as the blade slices through. Since the FAQ gives an answer, that is enough for me though.
ff6shadow 10-24-05, 08:05 AM	Sorta out off no where, but what book has this Prismatic Burst property. Sounds like lots of fun.
Millennium 10-24-05, 09:25 AM	I've considered allowing "critical effect" rolls for bursting (and similar) weapons even against creatures which are immune to critical hits. The hit itself wouldn't count as a critical hit, but the weapon's effect would be triggered as though a critical hit had just been scored. The idea would be that the effect triggers on particularly mighty blows, as a reflection of the wielder's fighting spirit, even if those blows don't end up hurting the target too much in and of themselves. I wonder if this nerfs crit-immunity too much, though.
Feriin 10-24-05, 09:25 AM	Not sure of the book , I will ask my friend later today (it's his character).
Feriin 10-24-05, 09:28 AM	I've considered allowing "critical effect" rolls for bursting (and similar) weapons even against creatures which are immune to critical hits. The hit itself wouldn't count as a critical hit, but the weapon's effect would be triggered as though a critical hit had just been scored. The idea would be that the effect triggers on particularly mighty blows, as a reflection of the wielder's fighting spirit, even if those blows don't end up hurting the target too much in and of themselves. I wonder if this nerfs crit-immunity too much, though. Even if a creature is immune to a crit , it can still be hit by the bursting ability of a weapon.. It says so in the Faq on page 24..