Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sontefir 04-28-07, 11:44 PM	I want to provide the players with my main "villian's" character sheet to help them prepare to battle him. (http://black-blackheart.pbwiki.com) He's a 20th level bard with over 300,000gp worth of items (book recommended amount for a PC). My question is two-fold: At around what level can I expect my party to be able to handle him? At around what level should I make available the ability to quest for "secret information about Alunitus" ie his char sheet? krichaiushii: That's a great idea! Stats: Villian "Alunitus the Gold" 20 level bard Str 8 Dex 19 (magic items totaling 12k gp) Con 30 (magic items totaling 48k gp) Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 32 (magic items totaling 200k gp) Fort 27 Ref 14 Will 14 HP 303 AC: 23 BAB 15/10/5 (-4/-4 dual wield penalties) Left hand Dancing Brutal Surge Warhammer +5 Right hand Ancestral Relic Holy Surge Warhammer +5 7 feats Two Weapon Fighting Improved Two Weapon Fighting Greater Two Weapon Fighting Improved Initiative Improved Critical Great Fortitude Craft Wonderous Item
Toloran 04-29-07, 12:12 AM	I really hope your players aren't going be fighting just him. He only has 23 AC and he only has a +15 to hit with his best attack? Unless your players are really under geared, this guy will go down fast without him even hitting them. What other items does he have because his saves seem really off. Also, what kind of situation are your PCs going to be fighting him? On his own? With a ton of minions? With him getting the drop on them? They getting the drop on him? Also, it seems kinda odd to have a PC with really bad strength, no weapon finesess, and a large chunk of his money spent on weapons but non spent on armor.
krichaiushii 04-29-07, 10:24 AM	As a bard, one would think that his main villainous focus is to get people to do things for him. This means lots of loyal followers, cohorts, and hordes of people ready to do his bidding just due to his charming personality. He might also turn the common people (and local authorities) against the PCs via his Charisma. One might think that a bard with 32 charisma MIGHT make maximum use of the Use Magic Device skill to pelt the PCs with all sorts of wand- and staff-based spells. Final combat against this guy should involve lots of minions striving to keep him safe. As to your actual question, you probably shouldn't give up the sheet wholesale - make it a piece-by-piece gathering. In one place they learn he has never been sick, poisoned, or negatively affected by undead life draining (HIGH con). In another place, they learn that he has difficulties adding sums without using his fingers and very often acts rashly (Low Int and Low Wis). One place they learn of a powerful magic hammer; from another source, they learn that he owns that hammer. You get the idea. As it will take them some time to learn everything, you can start the information flow today. If feeling prickish, you can even make it background information - many players ignore fluff, so you can then punish them for ignoring you. DM - "Remember when I actually sang that bard's song about the magical hammer?" Players - "Kind of." DM - "Well, it revealed its weakness. I guess you should pay more attention and take notes when I, the DM, am speaking, huh?" Players - *die from hammer blows*
Aminvelos 04-29-07, 10:55 AM	No character would get to level 20 with 8 int and 8 wisdom. At least not in my campaigns, not unless someone held your hand through the tougher decision making and this is suppose to be the boss. I mean there are other high prc's out there who would have taken this guy down by now, if he had been causing trouble. NEway on to your question. A lil information must be given for it to be properly answered, how many ppl are in your group? What classes are they? Do they optimize their characters?
Luis_Dragunov 04-29-07, 02:52 PM	I smell min-maxing point buy on this here dude. The coolest thing about this bard villain is that, well, he is a bard. He's a lvl20 bard with the judgement of a 10 year old child. But yeah, you need to beef this guy up. I suggest fudging his ability scores.. but, really, he's a lvl20 bard. I don't really know how you can make him menacing on a 1-on-party battle without beefing him with DM fiat.
sontefir 04-29-07, 02:55 PM	The party will be 3 people, a spellcaster, a melee combat type and a necromancer type. They all start at level 1. They have to use :eek: a system :eek: (http://black-blackheart.pbwiki.com/32%20point%20system) when picking stats, and also for HP. My NPCs all must also follow these systems. I had Alunitus's stats at str8 dex8 con18 int8 wis8 cha18. Next, I leveled him to 20 and picked spells/whatnot. Next, I calculated how much gp a 20th level char would have and spent accordingly. Next I had him craft and read a tome of leadership, dropping his XP by 25,000. I told my players that every known 3.5 item, spell, class, race, monster and feat exist in this campaign. We collectively own most of the books. Naturally my enemies also have access to these things. I really like the idea of spreading out the information throughout the campaign. It helps keep the focus on the main villian, who for plot reasons the party must kill or lose their souls. I have to admit I mostly make melee fighter type enemies, so this is really a new area for me. Normally, the plot focuses around battle against progressively harder enemies with roleplay for flavor. With this campaign I was going for the opposite; progressively harder roleplay with battle for flavor. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep up the awesome criticism! AFTER CAREFULLY READING ALL THE INPUT FROM EVERYONE, THIS IS MY MAIN VILLIAN'S REVISED CHARACTER SHEET: Army of Alunitus (various creatures/enemies at maximum presence w/buffs) CR 20 Alunitus the Gold CR 20 Str 11 (11) Dex 11 (11) Con 24 (12 + 12 [six pink rhomboid ioun stones]) Int 11 (11) Wis 11 (11) Cha 34 (18 + 5 [tome of Leadership] +6 [Cloak of charisma] +5 [level ups]) Weapons: Two +5 Dancing Holy Surge Warhammers (simplified battle by making both weapons the same; these warhammers can attack on their own for 4 rounds at his higest BAB, but only with severe penalties [-6/-10] due to a lack of feats. These are mostly for fighting the party when they're around level 8, not so much for later levels, which will probably be large-scale battles w/many summons and enemies on a field) Armor: +5 Chain Mail BAB 15/10/5 AC 28 (10 base) (+5 Robe of the archmagi) (+8 bracers of armor) (+5 chain mail) HP 20+13+10+13+10+13+10+13+10+13+10+13+10+1 3+10+13+10+13+10+13 (http://black-blackheart.pbwiki.com/Player%20Information%20and%20House%20Rul es)=240 Skill Check Modifiers * Skill (ranks+mods) 37 * Diplomacy (23+12+2) 37 * Bluff (23+12+2) 35 * Use Magic Device (23+12) 24 * Craft Wonderous Item (23+1) 35 * Disguise (23+12) 26 * Sense Motive (23+1+2) 35 * Perform (23+12) Skill Points 161 Feats Improved Initiative +4 Leadership Persuasive +2 bluff |and| +2 intimidate Negotiator +2 diplomacy |and| +2 sense motive Empower Spell Heighten Spell Craft Wonderous Item Spells 6 level zero spells Detect Magic, Know Direction, Open/Close, Summon Instrument, Resistance, Read Magic 8 level one spells Charm Person, Erase, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Magic Mouth, Undetectable Alignment, Obscure object 8 level two spells Blur, Cat's Grace, Detect Thoughts, Mirror Image, Rage, Tongues, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendor 8 level three spells Blink, Crushing Despair, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Slow, Speak with Animals, Glibness 7 level four spells Dimension Door, Dominate Person, Greater Invisibility, Modify memory, Speak with Plants, Shout, Rainbow Pattern 7 level five spells Mass Cure Light Wounds, Greater Heroism, Mind Fog, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion, Mislead, Mirage Arcana 6 level six spells Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Charm Monster, Eyebite, Geas/Quest Spells/day (4: All spell levels) Music (All songs known) Music/day (20) Edit: I don't mind the party defeating him at around level 15, but anything lower than that would be too low. This campaign is largely an experiment with some new play styles and house rules, but I still want it to be fun and exciting like my other campaigns, and to last at least until next year, meaning we'd have to shoot for level 15ish.
sontefir 04-29-07, 03:13 PM	lol Luis you posted while I was posting so: I smell min-maxing point buy on this here dude. The coolest thing about this bard villain is that, well, he is a bard. He's a lvl20 bard with the judgement of a 10 year old child. He was a bard in a party of heroes who went in search of some kind of power. (http://black-blackheart.pbwiki.com/Alunitus%20the%20Gold) As his comrades died, he continued to gain power, but he's still just a big whiny idiot at heart. The only thing he's got going for him is that he's just as holier-than-thou as a paladin and people trust him so long as he's not too nosy about their private business (read: questionable activities). So yeah, 10-year-old with a giant gun, pretty much.
Toloran 04-30-07, 12:05 AM	The AC bonuses from bracers of armor and the chain shirt do not stack at all since they are both armor bonuses. I think the robe of the archmagi is an armor bonus as well but I don't have the book on hand to check. If you want to boost his AC, dump the bracers of armor but keep the chain shirt. Pick up a mithral shield (Since bards are proficient with them) and enhance that. Alsos pick up an amulet of natural armor (natural armor bonus to your AC) and a ring of protection (adds a deflection bonus to your AC). Dual Wielding is kinda a waste for a character who shouldn't be in melee (ever). I suggest having his weapon(s) being either Harmonizing (from Magic Item Compendium, does something with bardic music) or Defending (which allows him to dump the +5 enhancment bonus into his AC as a dodge bonus). Persuasive and Negotiator are really sub-par feats and you should consider replacing them. Depending on how you plan on playing the bard I suggest Battle Dancer (Players Handbook 2) for a melee type, Subsonics (Complete Adventurer) for sneaky types, or Enchanting Song (Races of Stone) for a enchanter type (which, from looking at your spell list, you are kinda).
sontefir 04-30-07, 12:41 AM	Dual Wielding is kinda a waste for a character who shouldn't be in melee (ever). I suggest having his weapon(s) being either Harmonizing (from Magic Item Compendium, does something with bardic music) or Defending (which allows him to dump the +5 enhancment bonus into his AC as a dodge bonus).Does Harmonizing's +2 enhancement to my perform check stack with another from an identical weapon? If not, could I have one of each and gain both effects?Persuasive and Negotiator are really sub-par feats and you should consider replacing them. I agree, I just threw those out when I couldn't find anything useful for a stupid Bard.
sontefir 04-30-07, 12:44 AM	Thanks for the input. Here's the latest version: I threw out the money cap: It makes sense for my world if he literally is decked out to the max, anyway. Alunitus the Gold CR 20 Str 11 (11) Dex 11 (11 + 6 [gloves of dexterity]) Con 14 (12 + 2 [one pink rhomboid ioun stone]) Int 11 (11) Wis 11 (11) Cha 34 (18 + 5 [tome of Leadership] +6 [Cloak of charisma] +5 [level ups]) Weapon: +5 Harmonizing Warhammer Helm Helm of True Seeing Armor: +3 Celestial Armor BAB 15/10/5 AC 29 (10 base + 3 celestial armor + 6 mithral heavy shield + 5 amulet of natural armor + 5 ring of protection) HP 135 (using the house rule formula linked in above posts) Skill Check Modifiers * Skill (ranks+mods) 37 * Diplomacy (23+12+2) 37 * Bluff (23+12+2) 35 * Use Magic Device (23+12) 24 * Craft Wonderous Item (23+1) 35 * Disguise (23+12) 26 * Sense Motive (23+1+2) 35 * Perform (23+12+2) Skill Points 161 Feats Improved Initiative +4 Leadership Heighten Spell Enchanting Song Empower Spell Spell Focus (enchantment) Craft Wonderous Item Spells 6 level zero spells Detect Magic, Know Direction, Open/Close, Summon Instrument, Resistance, Read Magic 8 level one spells Charm Person, Erase, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Magic Mouth, Undetectable Alignment, Obscure object 8 level two spells Blur, Cat's Grace, Detect Thoughts, Mirror Image, Rage, Tongues, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendor 8 level three spells Blink, Crushing Despair, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Slow, Speak with Animals, Glibness 7 level four spells Dimension Door, Dominate Person, Greater Invisibility, Modify memory, Speak with Plants, Shout, Rainbow Pattern 7 level five spells Mass Cure Light Wounds, Greater Heroism, Mind Fog, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion, Mislead, Mirage Arcana 6 level six spells Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Charm Monster, Eyebite, Geas/Quest Spells/day (4: All spell levels) Music (All songs known) Music/day (20)
sontefir 04-30-07, 02:12 AM	So back to my very first question and original reason for posting this entire topic: At what level could a sorcerer, a fighter and a necromancer be expected to be able to, just barely, beat this guy and his CR 20 army of helpers?
Comus 04-30-07, 08:54 AM	So back to my very first question and original reason for posting this entire topic: At what level could a sorcerer, a fighter and a necromancer be expected to be able to, just barely, beat this guy and his CR 20 army of helpers? It entirely depends on how you play them. One of the BBEGs in my campaign is a Bard, and she's given the players absolute hell because she a) uses her abilities to buff minions, making even low-level threats dangerous... b) doesn't have a permanent base of operations, instead moving around and making it difficult to plan an attack... oh, and c) actively goes after the players, using their friends and family against them. And she's two levels below the PCs, and has thus far survived... *counts* at least four encounters, mostly by running away when things got tough.
Potato Weasel 04-30-07, 12:30 PM	I believe that he's not proficient with that chainmail.. Bards aren't proficient with medium.
Potato Weasel 04-30-07, 12:34 PM	As a fix for the chainmail, throw in celestial armor as it counts as light, fits his holier than thou theme, and is a +3, meaning he only misses a +2 on the ac.
sontefir 04-30-07, 01:24 PM	It entirely depends on how you play them. One of the BBEGs in my campaign is a Bard, and she's given the players absolute hell because she a) uses her abilities to buff minions, making even low-level threats dangerous... b) doesn't have a permanent base of operations, instead moving around and making it difficult to plan an attack... oh, and c) actively goes after the players, using their friends and family against them. And she's two levels below the PCs, and has thus far survived... *counts* at least four encounters, mostly by running away when things got tough. This is exactly the flavor I was going for with him. He'll be able to scry them easily with his resources, so I want him to be able to show up if a fight looks like it's going to be too easy or if the players look bored and need to be shaken up a little. I like that he's manuverable. I'd really like for him to be able to fly at 60ft if possible. Maybe just make custom boots with Fly as the spell permanentized on it.
Potato Weasel 04-30-07, 01:35 PM	Celestial armor allows you to fly... but only once per day.
Potato Weasel 04-30-07, 01:36 PM	Oh, and sorry for the multiple posts, but unless you fix the chainmail problem, he cant cast spells either.
sontefir 04-30-07, 03:46 PM	Ok, I'm going to make just ONE MORE version of this and then take comments on it. Hopefully someone will throw me a ballpark estimate on what level my party should be at before attempting to fight him. I really appreciate all this help; thanks you the comments here this villian is much more balanced and will provide a better gameplay experience for me and my group, so thanks!
Onikani 04-30-07, 04:15 PM	Con 24 (12 + 12 [six pink rhomboid ioun stones]) These each provide an enhancement bonus. They do not stack. His con should still be 12, and his HP way lower. Best to just give him an amulet of con +6 or something if you want to pump his con/hp... EDIT - personally i would drop all those 11's in his stats into 12 12 10 10. And i would probably put the 12's into int and wis and the 10's int St and dex. Smart people are more manipulative, and he has the cha to back it up. This doesn't quite make him a mastermind, but at least he is smarter than the average bear...
sontefir 05-01-07, 04:26 AM	Alunitus the Gold CR 20 + A Swarm of Badlings CR 20 (I'm thinking a couple of dragons and a druid) Str 10 (10) Dex 18 (12 + 6 [gloves of dexterity]) Onikani: Thanks! Con 10 (10) Int 12 (12) Wis 12 (12) Cha 34 (18 + 5 [tome of Leadership] +6 [Cloak of charisma] +5 [level ups]) Weapon: +5 Harmonizing Warhammer Helm: Helm of True Seeing Armor: +3 Celestial Armor BAB: 15/10/5 AC: 33 (10 base + 4 dexterity + 3 celestial armor + 6 mithral heavy shield + 5 amulet of natural armor + 5 ring of protection) HP: 135 (using the house rule formula linked in above posts) Skill Check Modifiers (* Skill name [ranks+mods+synergies]): 35 * Diplomacy (23+12) 35 * Bluff (23+12) 35 * Use Magic Device (23+12) 25 * Craft Wonderous Item (23+2) 35 * Disguise (23+12) 25 * Sense Motive (23+2) 35 * Perform (23+12+2) 25 * Craft Magic Arms and Armor (23+2) Skill Points: 184 Feats: Improved Initiative +4 Leadership Heighten Spell Enchanting Song Empower Spell Spell Focus (enchantment) Craft Wonderous Item Spells: 6 level zero spells Detect Magic, Know Direction, Open/Close, Summon Instrument, Resistance, Read Magic 5 level one spells Charm Person, Erase, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Magic Mouth 5 level two spells Blur, Cat's Grace, Rage, Tongues, Eagle's Splendor 5 level three spells Crushing Despair, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Slow 5 level four spells Dimension Door, Dominate Person, Modify Memory, Shout, Rainbow Pattern 5 level five spells Mass Cure Light Wounds, Greater Heroism, Mind Fog, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion, 4 level six spells Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Eyebite, Geas/Quest Spell Level - Spells/day = spells from class + spells from charisma score 0 - 4 = 4 + 0 1 - 7 = 4 + 3 2 - 7 = 4 + 3 3 - 7 = 4 + 3 4 - 7 = 4 + 3 5 - 6 = 4 + 2 6 - 6 = 4 + 2 Music (All songs known) Music/day (20)
sontefir 05-01-07, 06:17 AM	_.-. .-.' ; ; .' ; / / _.' / / / .-"/ / / / /.-( .----,/ \ )( : ; :\(""TP"T __ / : ` ._-: _ .' ""y : ___:_ __ )l BUMP / / : `. " `y\ / :_____ : _.._/ : ; `./ /.: `.--.--' .^" .: :"-. / \/ l :--/ `..-" ; : """ \ / -;-' \ : .' ; : \ .' / ; :.__.' / : : /\ ; ; / \ / : .' `. .' \ ( ' `. \ `. ; `. ; )--....--' "-. .-" `. .-" ____ `. `. _,--"" ""--. `. `. \ "-. \ l--""7 :--""7 .--"""T "T""`--. / __ | | __ \
sontefir 05-01-07, 02:35 PM	http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ok/kay/tombstones/bump_miloflorence.jpg
Toloran 05-01-07, 03:23 PM	Ok, I'm going to make just ONE MORE version of this and then take comments on it. Hopefully someone will throw me a ballpark estimate on what level my party should be at before attempting to fight him. I really appreciate all this help; thanks you the comments here this villian is much more balanced and will provide a better gameplay experience for me and my group, so thanks! I'd have to say the earliest they could take them out (assuming ideal circumstances for the players and the worst circumstances for the BBEG) would be level 16. That is assuming 1) He is alone, and 2) The players are reasonably well built, and 3) They get a surprise round on him. A more reasonable assumption would be around lvl 17/18 or so. One thing to consider though: A zone of silence is just as effective against him as an anti-magic field. Normal spellcasters (like your necromancer and your sorcerer) can cast spells in a zone of silence by using the silent spell metamagic feat. A bard does not have that option. So a zone of slience negates his bardic music, his spellcasting, and the harmonizing property of his weapon (since it requires sounds). Granted though: Silence only has a 20ft radius of effect and it is easily possible to move out of that radius (unless the zone is mobile because it was placed on an object or person). EDIT: One more thing, you are supposed to wait 24 hours before bumping a topic.
sontefir 05-01-07, 08:07 PM	EDIT: One more thing, you are supposed to wait 24 hours before bumping a topic. Thanks, I'll remember that.