Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jessewik 05-01-07, 12:45 AM	well,i recently played in a campaign where we all started at first level.the party consisted of a human fighter(me),an elf wizard,a halfling rogue,and a halforc cleric.it was a pretty normal adventure at first.an abandoned mine filled with goblins.but then we got to the big boss battle.a necromancer,and his two apprentices.the necro had a magical staff,which slowly began killing the npc we were trying to save by draining her life force.so i ran up to the necro and attacked him.natural 20 with my longsword.i rolled 6 damage,then on my conformation role,i got another natural 20.we instate the double 20 death rule so i chopped of the necros head.with cleave as one of my feats,i then turned to attack the apprentice,which i hit with a critical and dropped him to negative 3 hp.then the second apprentice disintegrated my weapon.so after the party attacked(they all missed)i attempted an unarmed strike on the apprentice.once again,double 20,instant death(instant kill even applies to unarmed strikes).everybody thought it was the sweetest encounter ever.except the dm,who through his dice,slammed shut his phb,ripped up his notes,and ran into the other room.later on he said i was out of the group. i tried talking to him but its like talking to a wall.correction,a retarded wall. its the only game around. i may just start a new group with the players from the previous campaign.i just think it is stupid that i am being punished for making lucky rolls.what do you guys think?
Kouk 05-01-07, 12:54 AM	You don't really want a different opinion do you? Clearly if he immature enough to institute a house rule, and then get angry when it comes up and throws a temper tantrum like that, you are better off not being in his group.
Raumz 05-01-07, 12:54 AM	Well if your DM really acted like that he should have a bottle and a nappy time in the middle of each gaming session. If you did talk to him and he said you were still out of the group because you blew away his grand boss battle with luckys rolls then he is a dip and shouldn't be playing D&D anyways. So ya, if you can get your own group going, he dosnt deserve to have a group if he acts like that over something so small. I mean I can kinda understand something like that if he took you guys from level 1 to level 20 over a 4 year campaign and in the huge climactic boss battle you just chopped the BBEG's head off, even then its sort of a stretch. But for a first level encounter....he is just...wierd.
PenderGrass 05-01-07, 12:55 AM	First, instant-death rules like the one that game used are never a good idea - they may sound cool and fun, but they never are (if you are looking to making multiple 20s more deadly, try making it a variable increase - like +50% more damage per extra 20, or some such). Second, how old and experienced was this DM? He doesn't sound very mature and seems an unlikely long-term DM. Third, and this is mostly non-D&D advice, never ask people to determine whether someone else that you are speaking about is "stupid" or not. He may be wrong, but we have no real way - nor any right - to actually judge the person. Try moving on and above the situation by not making posts like this on the internet. :dragon: ****
daggeroflath 05-01-07, 06:47 AM	I think the DM was right. No real reason, your inability to use the shift key on your keyboard simply prejudices me against you so I'm going to assume that you're wrong. Congratulations, you no longer have a DM. Keep this up and you'll have to find a new hobby.
Frugal 05-01-07, 08:29 AM	This would be why I always recommend to DMs that they not use an instakill rule, it's bound to come up at the big climatic battle and turn a tense sense into a cake walk. Granted, the odds of rolling that many 20's is pretty damn low. I'd also ask if you have improved unarmed strike because if you don't then you can't deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike (and also provoke an AoO) so I really don't see instakill working with nonlethal attacks. Now then, it sounds like the DM is cheating hardcore here, you're 1st level and he had your weapon disintegrated :confused:, by one of the aprentices no less? To me that sounds like he's being immature and was trying to lash out at you for dropping the boss so quickly. Now I'm sure you and your fellow players are not going to be easily convinced that instakill isn't a good idea at this point given how "cool" you thought that encounter was. However, honestly I see it as being kind of amusing but personally I find the best encounters are ones where I actually feel challenged, and that encounter sounded pretty damn anti-climatic. But, here's the big question, how "cool" would it be the first time you see your DM roll double 20's when he's attacking your PC?
Fudgemonster 05-01-07, 08:48 AM	I've never talked to a retarded wall before, so I'm having trouble grasping the simile.
alzoron 05-01-07, 09:01 AM	I think the DM was right. No real reason, your inability to use the shift key on your keyboard simply prejudices me against you so I'm going to assume that you're wrong. Congratulations, you no longer have a DM. Keep this up and you'll have to find a new hobby. Hi there. I see you're new to the forums, so here is a word of advice for you: Prohibited chat room, board, and e-mail list, behaviors include (but are not limited to): ... trolling or baiting by putting to the screen inflammatory statements designed to elicit a negative response from the community You can read the rest of the rules here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/community_coc.php) Have a nice day! ;)
rubermavors 05-01-07, 10:15 AM	I had something similar happen in a game i DMed, our half-dwarf gladiator had a vorpal battle axe. When he took the head of the BBEG for that area i was annoyed, however, I realized that I gave him the weapon and there was no reason to freak out since it was MY fault. A question that i would like to ask is, is this the normal behavior of the dm? if it is then i would definitely start my own group with more thought as to house rules.
daggeroflath 05-01-07, 11:34 AM	Hi there. I see you're new to the forums, so here is a word of advice for you: You're right. That was very rude of me. I apologize jessewik.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 05-01-07, 11:38 AM	One "concern" he may have felt and not articulated is cheating. Personally if someone rolled 4 or 5 twenties like that in a row I would severely question their honesty. I'm also going to agree with Dagger, that you need to use some capitilization and check your grammer. Its extremely hard to have to keep stopping in the middle to figure out what you are saying.
Frugal 05-01-07, 11:44 AM	One "concern" he may have felt and not articulated is cheating. Personally if someone rolled 4 or 5 twenties like that in a row I would severely question their honesty. Agreed, we've got 1 set of double 20's (1/400 chance), a crit on the next roll (doesn't say if it was a 20 and it's a longsword so might've been a 19) then another set of double 20's. So we're talking about 5 die rolls so 3,200,000 possible combinations of die rolls, 2 of which give the results you're talking about (allowing for a 19 or 20 on the 2nd crit), so we're talking about a 1 in 1,600,000 chance of this happening, I know I'd certainly be suspecting cheating too.
rubermavors 05-01-07, 12:45 PM	ok maybe i was just being naive, in my games all the rolls are out in the open. Yes even mine, the dm's. this cuts back on cheating on both sides of the screen.
Frugal 05-01-07, 12:48 PM	ok maybe i was just being naive, in my games all the rolls are out in the open. Yes even mine, the dm's. this cuts back on cheating on both sides of the screen. Cuts down on it but a lot can depend on rolling and what you accept as a roll. Off the top of my head, having a same-coloured die set to 20 right next to where you're rolling (hoping to confuse the DM and other players). Or, if you cup a die with the 20 down and just let it drop out of your hand then it will tend to favour coming up as a 20. Personally, I wouldn't consider either as valid "rolls" but I'd certainly be questioning a person's dice or rolling method if they rolled that many 20's in quick secession.
Kusari_Gamer 05-01-07, 01:05 PM	I'm sorry, no one legitimately rolls like that. There's either a lie being told or cheating being done.
Phrennzy 05-01-07, 01:12 PM	Even if it was cheating, the DM's reaction was incredibly childish. To slam your books shut and then tear up your notes...and then storm out of the room...that is just amazing. And then to say that you can't come back. I wouldn't want to come back. Starting a new game is a good idea. (This of course does not apply if the DM was also in the middle of some sort of crisis, like a pet had just died, or a breakup with his boyfriend, or he was off his meds...)
calronmoonflower 05-01-07, 01:20 PM	I'm sorry, no one legitimately rolls like that. There's either a lie being told or cheating being done. It could be the dice are naturally off. You can check by rolling 10 times for each side of the die (200 times in this case) and recording the number of each side you get.
Aelstrom 05-01-07, 01:22 PM	Agreed, we've got 1 set of double 20's (1/400 chance), a crit on the next roll (doesn't say if it was a 20 and it's a longsword so might've been a 19) then another set of double 20's. So we're talking about 5 die rolls so 3,200,000 possible combinations of die rolls, 2 of which give the results you're talking about (allowing for a 19 or 20 on the 2nd crit), so we're talking about a 1 in 1,600,000 chance of this happening, I know I'd certainly be suspecting cheating too. While I'm not saying that he definitely didn't cheat, it's more likely that someones going to think cheating when they see a lot of 20s, but I doubt that would be the response if you see a lot of 1s. My group has watched or DM roll 9 1s, in a row, out in the open, with a die we know isn't loaded.
calvinNhobbes 05-01-07, 01:27 PM	No matter what the odds, eventually it will happen. The problem I see is not the lucky dice, the problem I see is making a house rule that rewards luck and getting upset when luck happens.
OgreMonk 05-01-07, 02:03 PM	I have had sessions where I rolled more natural twenties than I rolled in the previous ten session put together. Same with natural ones. It happens. Sometimes the dice gods simply smile or sh:censored:t on you. edit: turribull speling
Unholy_King 05-01-07, 02:20 PM	What kind of Necromancer gives the PC a clear path to him? Those skeletons give Improved initiative for a reason... ok maybe i was just being naive, in my games all the rolls are out in the open. Yes even mine, the dm's. this cuts back on cheating on both sides of the screen. Except the DM cant really cheat. That would involve him trying to win. and by having the rolls done in the open, the DM can't fudge rolls in your favor or in favor of the story. When I DM, I try to avoid TPKs that shouldn't happen... Unless they really deserve it.
Frugal 05-01-07, 02:53 PM	No matter what the odds, eventually it will happen. The problem I see is not the lucky dice, the problem I see is making a house rule that rewards luck and getting upset when luck happens. QFT
Puritan13 05-01-07, 02:57 PM	except the dm,who through his dice,slammed shut his phb,ripped up his notes,and ran into the other room.AHHHHHH hahahahahahahahah! Honestly, you don't want to be gaming with this kid anyways. Reminds me of the kid I used to DM a few years ago. The party came across a ring of wishes and he got one and he wished for a "Black Hole" instead of a portable hole. I said "Okay, a black hole appears in the sky and begins to suck everything up." I was just messing with him, I knew what he wanted and was just about to say "Not really, bro, you get your portable hole." when he grabs and pulls his hair with both hands (a 'la Chris Farley) and says "Thats not what I wanted!".
Bruunwald 05-01-07, 03:30 PM	It's not your fault the dice came up so lucky. On the other hand, I have a player in my game, who, if I saw that many 20s in a row, I would have no doubt he was cheating, since he cheats in pretty much every other way possible. Perhaps this is not your only streak of "luck" and the DM has become wary of you? I'm not saying that is true, or your fault, just offering a theory. A couple points ought to be touched on, in any case. One is that his behavior was totally juvenile, no matter what he thought was going on. He was out of line, even if something sneaky was up. Two is that your attitude is no picnic, either. Calling people "retarded" is not going to win you any friends (except for a few of the more tactless posters here). You want to be the good guy in all of this, you clean up your act first, and deal with this like a grown up. That means no name-calling. And coming here just to get consensus on behavior you already know to be juvenile, is really disingenuous. Why not just put up a post that rags on the guy with no pretense to wanting advice? Three is that the standard double-20 = kill rule does not end after the second 20. It requires a third roll, which must confirm the hit. Then, and only then, is the kill automatic. In neither case did you mention the third roll. I am assuming it did not exist. In not following that, your DM nerfed his own game (perhaps unwittingly). In not reminding him, you took advantage (unless you didn't know). Finally, you never mentioned your own reactions to what happened in-game. Okay, maybe the DM is a baby, but I had a player in my game for a long time, who was notorious for rubbing such luck in his DM's face (hands thrown up in a "V" for victory, laughing tauntingly, talking about such an event for days, or even weeks, and generally making fun of the bad luck for everybody else in the situation). I would be interested to know in what ways you might have taunted this guy into reacting this way. I'm not saying you did. Just that it takes two to Tango. Most people need someone to set them off like that. Some don't know how to react to disappointment, true. I'm just saying. It's easy to tell a story in which we are innocent, sweet lambs, and the big, bad DM is just an awful, evil wolf. But how often does that sync with reality?
Khoran 05-01-07, 03:31 PM	Ah, instant death rules. They're bound to frustrate someone when the time comes. I can understand why your DM got angry. However, he did fly off the handle when he basically said "That's it, I'm not playing anymore." Here is what I would suggest: Change/Get rid of the instant death rule. If you really want to keep it, here are a couple ways to revise it. It was immature of him and he should learn that sometimes luck is against you. He should try to lighten up about it and try to laugh about it later. Something like this happened in my group with me, and while the DM was originally irritated at me for such good luck, we later were joking that I have my own class ability. Smite Potential Villan 1/Character (SU). 1) 3 Natural 20s in a row: This is harder to get then two natural 20s in a row, so there is less of what just happened from happening. 2) Fortitude Save: After reaching the point where you would instant death someone under the rules you are using, instead of having them flat out dieing, make them make a Fort Save or die from shock of such a massive blow. Roll your damage, add it all up, and give them a Fort Save that is DC 10+Damage taken. 3) Scaling Damage: Rather than instant deathing someone, you could have more crits mean more damage. For everytime you confirm with a Natural 20, you gain a bonus to your damage. This bonus could be anything, an additional 50% extra damage, some extra dice, stepping up your crit modifier or anything else you think would work.
Saberus 05-01-07, 03:44 PM	If I was the DM of that game, I'd tell the player good job, then grumble here on the forums. If I had that insta-kill rule, I'm partly to blame. My current group uses 'two 20's and a crit' insta-kill, the situation rarely comes up, and affects players and monsters alike. I'm trying to wean them to my crit houserule, every 20 after the threat bumps the multiplier by 1. And Bruunwald makes a valid point, you're creating a 'pot calling the kettle black' scenario. I've found myself guilty of that on occasion.
Raumz 05-01-07, 04:11 PM	I would just like to say its possible to roll 200 20s in a roll. Its just not probable. I know how freaky dice can be from first hand experience. Me and my friends were joking about training a D20 to roll whatever you want and I said yea like this *I pick up the D20 I almost always use* and I say "Roll a 15" I roll it...15....I roll it again say 11, it turns up 11, I roll it again saying 3 or 4 I dont remember which but it come up the number I said. I did that 2 more times before it rolled a diffrent number than what I said. Everything is possible, few things are probable.
vagabonvoid 05-01-07, 04:36 PM	I used the instant death rule in expedition to castle ravenloft. The PCs first encounter with Strahd ended in favor of Strahd when he instant-deathed the party's wizard. The player's were so POed at me that we didn't game for weeks (this is after they had used the instant death rule several times to take out enemies throughout the campaign). When we got together again to finish the campaign In the end, the party got revenge. The party's fighter won initiative with strahd weakened from a previous encounter. The fighter used Leap attack and got 3 nat 20s with a holy greataxe resulting in Total overkill to the darklord. They celebrated after this.
TobaWareho 05-01-07, 04:42 PM	Wanna see some salty players? We once played a campaign for a couple months, and got to a major boss fight. I had rolled a DM-PC of marshall, so that it woudl simply hit once in combat, and then give its auras to the players since they were shorthanded party wise. Well, long story short, he triple 20s the Boss, and fight over. We just sat there in silence for a bit. Lol. So, being the reasonable DM that I am, I quickly amended by saying the slaying was an illusion cast by a malicious wizard in the crowd, which gave the beast a sneak attack on my PC, and play went on. The moral of the story is, if you're a DM, you can bend the game to make it fun for your players and for yourself. Your DM should have not reacted immidiately and instead done something like reveal the necro was a puppet to another, more powerful monster/character, who then stepped out. Or somethign creative like that. Flipping out does no one any good, and its because of anti social behavior like that D&D sometimes gets a bad name.
Cromag 05-01-07, 05:35 PM	Personally I wouldn't want to play in a game with someone that I thought acted that way, and I have dropped out of games with people like that. Like everyone else said, don't use insta-death rules, the only time it is cool is when it affects an unnamed NPC. Keep in mind the way combats work each player will have exponentially more attacks thrown at them than any NPC. after all nearly every game your party members will have atleast one chance to be automatically killed while most enemies show up for only 1 or 2 encounters then they become meaningless. Auto kills are nothing short of a time bomb waiting to happen for PC's
jessewik 05-01-07, 06:24 PM	You're right. That was very rude of me. I apologize jessewik. It was partly my fault too,but i was angry and venting,and didnt bother to include proper punctuation.I admit it makes the post harder to read.sorry