Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krackatowa 08-08-06, 12:51 PM	I am a little stumped. My PCs are great, motivated I have captured their spirit and enjoy playing with them......BUT they are doing my head in. I will develop these great story lines with plots that twist, great motifs, political agendas intrege and players just don't get it... and most times it aint that hard to work out almost predictable at times. I will drop hints and sometimes have to bring in NPC just to come up with a solution. These guys average 8th level and I am just frustrated. They all say they like my story lines and I really don't want to make it just all hack and slash. What to do?
Archmage Atrus 08-08-06, 12:59 PM	So your problem is that your PCs are dumb? Or, at least, dumber than you'd like? I'm not sure we can help with that... But I can tell you this. No matter how much planning the DM does in the background, the PCs are almost guaranteed to never really learn the intricate details of the history of your adventure. And, honestly, you shouldn't expect them to. You should only expect to give them enough information necessary to solve the problem at hand, with a little misinformation or irrelevant information here and there to throw them off track. One great example of this is the adventure Faction War. It sets up an amazing backstory, with tons of cool twists and turns, but really the PCs never learn any of it. They're just there to do their job, and the DM, at the end, only knows how their roles fit into the grand scheme of things. Truly crafty and involved PCs can, at their option, research and find out what the back story is, but honestly only the most dedicated bards or truth-finders would go to the effort. So just appreciate the fact that your PCs are involved in the game to the extent they are, keep pumping out those great adventures, and keep up the good work, even if it isn't fully appreciated by your PCs. Don't force them to understand.
monkeyintux 08-08-06, 01:02 PM	Sorry, dont have much of an answer for you. This is more of a I know exactly what you are talking about. The players that are pure hack and slash and couldnt figure out a puzzle if it was, what is the answer to 2 + 2? But they keep gushing about how they love my campaigns because there is more than hack and slash, lots of storyline. But just like you, I need to drop rediculous hints to the point of railroading or bring in a NPC just to get things moving. I dont believe in "changing" a player, they all have their own style. But when you invest so much in something and they reach mid to high levels and they are still playing Diablo on paper, it gets frustrating. So I too would like to hear others experiences on this.
Magesmiley 08-08-06, 01:34 PM	I've had the same problem in my campaigns as well. One thing that I've found helps is to tie the backstory into the adventure in a manner where putting the pieces together makes the adventure much easier. This leads to the problem of getting the PCs interested enough in the back story to realize that if they connect the dots enough, it makes their jobs so much easier. So, one idea is to get together your broad plan for the next 8-10 adventures and give the PCs a prophecy, which if correctly interpreted will give them hints on the best actions to take in the adventures. Give the prophecy as a hand out. They probably won't manage to connect the dots for the first adventure or two. However, if they look at it again after being a couple of adventures in (with maybe a helpful NPC to prod them and interpret), it should make them take a much harder look at the other items in the prophecy, which in turn will make them take a much harder look at your back story.
iggyzillious 08-08-06, 01:45 PM	I agree with the sentiments, for you to keep pumping out great adventures and do not worry so much about them not getting all of the points. I have DM'd a 1 through 20 campaign and it was the first one I had done in a full campaign and made many mistakes, but I had fun and so did the players and the only major problems were some railroading at times so they would get involved in the major campaign, or characters either never elborating on their back story or at least not being inclined to tell the DM. So when they'd have random explorations and I'd throw in some situation and they would end up having something happen to them they did not like, I was told I ruined their character because that's not how their character was supposed to happen, the character when designed had it's fate and how could the DM or the world change that. It left me quite frustrated, and I also had the inclination that they liked hack and slash but they informed me when I ran a few combat lite missions they liked to have more combat. I'd suggest you take the players aside before or after a game and ask them if they enjoy having more combat focused adventures or more intrigue focused adventures. Another suggestion is keep track of all of the clues that the PC's regularly pick up on and have those be your hooks, will it not be your complex web probably not but the web can still exist if the PC's did a lot of investigating to figure it all out. The result would be instead of the party doing 2 hours (real time) investigating all of the lairs of how far this plot goes, they might get some stories about the mayor making human sacrifices and come up with a plan to complete the objective. They are still happy and maybe one time they will do all of the investigating that you planned which as a DM it seems like that will never happen because it's your story that you planned and you know how it all fits together. It's a lot to expect that they will figure it out when they are eqivilant to people thrown in the mix of massive conflict only trying to help out and survive. They are not going to have available scope to be like so militiaman Thorn was just a patsy of Governor Gaeran for the sale broadswords to the desert elves in order to give gold pieces to the wood elves. They will just fight the elves that attack them and find out that militaiman Thorn sold them the weapons and the Governor Gaeran will say well done adventures here is some treasure for your service.
Zombie Carl 08-08-06, 03:25 PM	Don't leave clues, have NPC's tell them whats happening. Yes, i realise this ruins the mystery, but i've found it's the only way to get them integrated into your history and characters. The only way to make players pay attention to your story is if they ask for the information. Instead of dropping hints, have an event happen and then afterwards have an NPC explain it too them. They ask "what happened?" he responds with a one-line answer that leads onto another obvious question. As in, say, the PC's have been given a mission to recover a sacred staff: "Who took the staff?" "Jim-Bob did." "Who is Jim-Bob?" "A cleric of Nerull." "Why would he take it?" "It is the last element he requires, I think." "What do you mean?" "Jim-Bob the Cleric has been trying to raise an army of ghouls, every time Jason the Paladin managed to stop him. However, Jason has disappeared, last seen heading into Jim-Bob's underground mausoleum, and he has never come back..." In this instance, the party asked "who took it?" is the bare minimum they could: to find out if they know who has taken it, and so they can go get it. They don't know Jim-Bob, so they have to find out more. By the second answer, they now know Jim-Bob is probably an evil cleric and he needed a holy relic for something. They are invested in the conversation and would have paid attention to the answers, so it's only natural to ask "why?" next. Giving them a cryptic answer then only makes them scratch their heads further, so they want to probe deeper into the mystery. Suddenly, you have a willing audience for the story of how Jim-Bob and Jason have had conflicts in the past, and how Jason has obviously failed to stop Jim-Bob this time. So when they discover Jim-Bob held Jason, drained him of his blood and turned him into a vampiric Blackguard under his control, they will be all the more surprised by the story. If it's something they didn't expect it becomes something they think about more, further integrating themselves into your plot. I'm currently running a very story-intense game (naturally with lashings of action gratuitously thrown in!) and this is the basic premise i begin all plot lines with - my players are coming to (correct) conclusions miles before i think i've dropped enough hints for them to work out whats going on now. It seems to work. Or maybe I just have great players.
Harrowdroth 08-08-06, 06:09 PM	sounds like You Have a "normal" group, I could recomend that you stop Bothering to Make "these great story lines with plots that twist, great motifs, political agendas intrege" Because they are (According to you) not Using most of the material you have created, I propose 3 options 1: Stop Wrighting the story, Create a Flowchart but leave out the details, I wrote an adventure, and I left out most of the details (Not for the rooms) And just made a Loose flowchart, Worked great. 2: If It ain't broken don't fix it. If they are enjoying the game as is, Dont screw with it, I mean You said they like it the way it is and they "Don't want to make it all hack and slash". 3: Most of the time Players don't "get" it all anyway. My group is 12th level and doesn't even search for Secret doors, (the one is an elf but, no ranks in search.) No group is perfect and by the sounds of things, you got a pretty good group. Don't mess it up. I mean that in a freindly way. Respectfully. Harrowdroth
kelvinaw273 08-08-06, 07:52 PM	Just because plot hooks are obvious to you ... but you made them. Maybe they are not clear enough? Maybe they have the wrong skills? Try using skill checks to get them on track and thinking.
Krackatowa 08-08-06, 11:28 PM	All you have all said is true my friends, But i am talking about obvious plot pieces they get to the magic door where they need to utter the magic words (which they were told earlier) and they are completely stumped on how to get past the magic door. i am talk 2 hrs of real time. So i roll intelligence checks, "You rememeber, Flipflop (wizard of 18 intellignece) that the old mysterious lady you spoke to earlier that day said to you when you get to the magic door you need to utter the magic words heebeegeebee..."
iggyzillious 08-09-06, 02:04 AM	I'm just sad no one noticed my thinly veiled Iran-contra refrence with the horrible anagram's for Oliver North and Ronald Reagan.
Gottwick 08-09-06, 06:22 PM	Just because the players don't understand what's going on doesn't mean the characters are clueless. Encourage Knowledge skill rolls and give them clues that way.
DarkNick 08-09-06, 07:01 PM	Difficult eh? I think it is probably the same for most DM's, and also why we are sometimes tempted to railroad. I have a couple tips that might be useful, but apart from these as long as you are all enjoying it then it might be something you could just live with. But if your totally frustrated with it then something needs to change. Firstly whenever you have something to say that is very important to the plot make sure you have everyones attention. Players attentions fade in and out over the course of the game so none of them ever get the whole picture. Try running things a bit looser. With the magic door for example - if the players don't remember what to say but come up with some innovative ideas as to how they might open the door - let it work as if this was how you planned it. Makes players feel like they have figured things out and everyone feels good without you having to give hints. Try to devlop stories that don't require the party input to work - things are as they are but the players can influence events depending on their action. Let them figure out what action they want to take and then have your world react. A great way to DM, but a fairly scary seat of your pants way, is to not think of a solution to a problem at all. Create a situation and see what happens. Often the party will give you the solution and you can steal it as your own. Alternatively think up a range of possible solutions without going into detail. For example, for the magic door you might tell the party that to reach their goal there will be a magic door created by such and such a person/group, and leave it at that. How they hear about it is up to you. The party might decide to look up the creator, talk to his followers, talk to a magical door expert, discover the purpose of the door, who it was supposed to keep out etc.... Let them come up with the ideas and then just go with it. You could make hard copies of important information - I like to make up some 'news' for each session and print it out. This may have stories about the world or how the characters actions have affected a the world "a huge fire ball was seen comming from the inn of the.....". Reminds the players about key plot elements and often promts questions before session. Another good technique it to have a recap of the last session in the beginning. Get the players to recap then fill in the blanks. Keeps some continuity to the plot.
Archmage Atrus 08-09-06, 07:08 PM	Here's one idea: Encourage notetaking. On the players' part - especially that Wizard. He's supposed to have an int of 18, so it should be well within the confines of your game that he can remember stuff near-verbatim. One of my players in college always brought a small wirebound notebook with her to sessions. Every time she's talk to an NPC, she's basically be a stenographer. (She was good enough at taking notes it didn't distract from gameplay.) It helped the players remember what they had to do, cryptic pieces of information to figure out later, etc. Heck, it even helped me out several times, when I had to come up with an NPC out of the blue due to their actions. I could just turn to her and say "What was the name of that lady you met this-where?" and she'd have an answer. Good times had by all. And to further encourage notetaking and taking responsibility for their characters - and this is important - don't bail them out. They didn't pay attention? Well, tough noogies, neither did their characters. Now they're at the puzzle and don't know how to solve it. Oh well, time to head home and grab another beer - no XP, no loot. (That is, assuming your PCs are motivated by XP and/or loot.)
gamertall 08-09-06, 08:45 PM	I empathize with every DM who has been in this position. Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge skills, and Gather Information are a DM's friend, but only if the players use them. Put all the detail you want into your storylines and then pick out the bare minimum of facts that the PCs need to get through the adventure. Just make sure that the PCs get that information somehow and keep the rest for the interested player who wants to know more. I am a player in an Eberron campaign and created a "know-it-all" just so that the DM could divulge all that neat information to the party. He's a multi-classed Cloistered Cleric/Bardic Sage (Unearthed Arcana variants) with an insane Lore/Bardic Knowledge check and ranks in all the Knowledge skills. In role-playing encounters, this guy goes after all the juicy details of an adventure. Because he acts more as an encyclopedia than a combat monster, the DM allows me to play an Artificer to take part in the action sequences of the adventures while the Sage cowers out of combat.
Krackatowa 08-11-06, 01:03 PM	The thing is that the story line makes the story interesting. you can lead a horse to water but you can't ,ake them drink but damn it why wont they drink don't they knopw it is good for them. It has fluride