Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marendithas_the_Necro 05-23-05, 09:04 PM	Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Does that mean that a rogue for example : He want to feint a Paladin and he win his bluff check and he attack the paladin with his full attack(he is a one rapier and one short sword) the sneak applies only for the rapier? yes?
astute1 05-23-05, 09:11 PM	Feinting is a standard action unless you have the improved feint feat, in which case it is a move action. In either case, it works only on your next (one) attack. Note: the Invisible Blade prestige class allows you to feint as a free action if armed with a dagger.
Sildatorak 05-24-05, 02:23 PM	Does that mean that a rogue for example : He want to feint a Paladin and he win his bluff check and he attack the paladin with his full attack(he is a one rapier and one short sword) the sneak applies only for the rapier? yes? He would have to wait until the next round to full attack for the reasons astute1 said, but you are correct that only the single attack will deny the paladin her dex bonus. Note: the Invisible Blade prestige class allows you to feint as a free action if armed with a dagger. Which basically lets you feint on every attack.
Flushmaster 05-24-05, 07:00 PM	Yup, what they said. Feinting is normally a standard action so, unless hasted or such, you can't attack until the next turn. Certain feats/class features can reduce this time and let you attack on the same round. Feinting only works for the next single attack. Also, as to the invisible blade ability, I'd probably rule it to be a swift action (free action that can only be done once per turn) since it could lead to abuse at higher levels.
Liwmial 05-24-05, 07:03 PM	This just cam up last night actually, and since Feint is a standard action, you cannot use it and attack in the same round. (There are improvements for the Feint ability.)
astute1 05-25-05, 08:04 AM	Also, as to the invisible blade ability, I'd probably rule it to be a swift action (free action that can only be done once per turn) since it could lead to abuse at higher levels. That kinda rapes the prestige class. The whole point is that they are lightly armored knife fighters who are masters of feinting. If they can only do it once per round, than they're no better than ordinary rogues. Besides, you have to make a feint roll for each attack, and feinting can be very difficult at high levels, since the opponent gets to add their bab to the sense motive check.
WolfSong 05-25-05, 09:30 AM	That kinda rapes the prestige class. The whole point is that they are lightly armored knife fighters who are masters of feinting. If they can only do it once per round, than they're no better than ordinary rogues. Besides, you have to make a feint roll for each attack, and feinting can be very difficult at high levels, since the opponent gets to add their bab to the sense motive check. Well if they wanted the Prestige class to be feint every attack they make they would simply have said so. I agree with the once a round or maybe would have them give up 1 attack to do a feint, so they could do feint on half of their total numbr of attacks.
astute1 05-25-05, 09:43 AM	Well if they wanted the Prestige class to be feint every attack they make they would simply have said so. They did. That's what "feint as a free action" means.
High Octane 05-25-05, 09:57 AM	Just because its a free action it doesnt mean that it is able to be used an infinite number of times in a round. Plus it also doesnt mean you can do it in the middle of an attack. A full attack is a full round action, and you cant perform even free actions during it unless otherwise told you can. For example, the 5 foot move is a free action, but you cant do it in the middle of a full attack. A full attack is closer to a combo than 3 different attacks. Basically you are using one long combination where you swing your sword 2 times instead of one slash, or a rolling 3 or 4.
wonlee76 05-25-05, 10:30 AM	Changing the invisible blade "free action" feint ability to a swift action or ruling that you can only get 1 free action feint as part of a full attack doesn't completely "rape" the Prestige Class. Basically limits the # of sneak attacks the invisible blade gets in a full attack. 1 successful feint, 1 sneak attack dagger attack, and you still get the rest of your dagger attacks on top of that. You're in a much better position then the guy with the Improved Feint feat. If you want sneak attack damage dice for each attack, go do what the traditional rogue would do, flank the target. Besides, the PHB says the DM can reasonably restrict the # of free actions a player can take in 1 round. So a DM can freely limit the # of "free action" feints the PC can take in 1 round with a level 5 invisible blade. Some DMs might say 1 check for every attack as part of a full attack routine or some might limit it to 1 free action feint/round.
Kalidor 05-25-05, 10:54 AM	Just because its a free action it doesnt mean that it is able to be used an infinite number of times in a round. Plus it also doesnt mean you can do it in the middle of an attack. A full attack is a full round action, and you cant perform even free actions during it unless otherwise told you can. For example, the 5 foot move is a free action, but you cant do it in the middle of a full attack. A full attack is closer to a combo than 3 different attacks. Basically you are using one long combination where you swing your sword 2 times instead of one slash, or a rolling 3 or 4. Um... a 5 foot step is a move action...
MaxDog 05-25-05, 12:37 PM	Just because its a free action it doesnt mean that it is able to be used an infinite number of times in a round. Plus it also doesnt mean you can do it in the middle of an attack. A full attack is a full round action, and you cant perform even free actions during it unless otherwise told you can. For example, the 5 foot move is a free action, but you cant do it in the middle of a full attack. Incorrect. A 5-foot step is classified as a "Miscellanious Action" which may be taken in any round in which you move no other distance. And you can take a 5-foot step before, during or after your other actions. Specifically, the SRD states: The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
Kalidor 05-25-05, 03:42 PM	You were more right than me!
MaxDog 05-25-05, 04:49 PM	You were more right than me! Hmmm, usually I'm more left! (Unless you are, for instance, Lenin or Marx) :rolleyes:
Sildatorak 05-25-05, 06:07 PM	Just because its a free action it doesnt mean that it is able to be used an infinite number of times in a round. Plus it also doesnt mean you can do it in the middle of an attack. A full attack is a full round action, and you cant perform even free actions during it unless otherwise told you can. For example, the 5 foot move is a free action, but you cant do it in the middle of a full attack. A full attack is closer to a combo than 3 different attacks. Basically you are using one long combination where you swing your sword 2 times instead of one slash, or a rolling 3 or 4. Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. You can do free actions during other actions. I have to agree that the entire point of the Invisible Blade PrC is to feint on every single attack. Without that ability, it is a really dumb idea for a rogue to so heavily restrict sneak attack in exchange for 3 or 4 non-sneak dagger attacks. If they had intended the IB to get a single SA as part of a sneak attack, they would have said, "once per round, an invisible blade can feint as a free action."
Merestil Haye 05-25-05, 07:37 PM	You can do free actions during other actions. I have to agree that the entire point of the Invisible Blade PrC is to feint on every single attack. Without that ability, it is a really dumb idea for a rogue to so heavily restrict sneak attack in exchange for 3 or 4 non-sneak dagger attacks. If they had intended the IB to get a single SA as part of a sneak attack, they would have said, "once per round, an invisible blade can feint as a free action."Absolutely. Or said "An invisible blade can feint as a swift action." In the DMG, the only limited free action is that you can cast one spell as a free action per round, in addition to your normal rounds activity.
MaxDog 05-25-05, 07:38 PM	This was discussed over at Infinite Monkeys a couple months ago. Although this is not official and passed on third hand, this is what I'm using in my rulings: From Infinite Monkeys: From: Keith <keith@...> Date: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:02 pm Subject: Re: Uncanny Feint Keith_Erys It's not useful in any official capacity, but the author of the invisible blade had two points to say on this issue when asked (over and over, since this is a glaring lack in class description): 1) He designed it so that it could make one free feint per turn 2) When he asked the editor how many the new class was supposed to get, he was told one feint per turn