Bluff/Feint [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bluff/Feint [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Karadur
02-23-04, 03:23 PM Me and the Bard PC in my group were a bit perplexed about a few topics concerning Bluff in combat and feinting.
1. How can you bluff only one person, surely there should be obvious rules for attempting to fool a crowd of oncoming assailants (chessy ex. "OH MY GOD A BLACK DRAGON! *Points behind mob)

Also, what would you do if this situation occured:
Enemy A is set on cleaving the PC in half. He moves next to the PC and attacks him. on the PC's turn he tumbles back 15 feet and wants to feint with his dagger.--What should be the modifier (if you would allow the action) for the Enemys Sense Motive check if any, since the PC isn't technically in Melee Combat with attacker.

Thanks
olshanski_home
02-23-04, 03:39 PM By "Make a feint with his dagger" does this mean that you want to throw the dagger? If so, then you cannot do it because you can only feint on a melee attack, and not a ranged attack.

Assuming that you want to tumble back and then attack when the fighter next gets within melee range, here is what you do:

Make the feint action before the move action... say to the DM "I am going to pretend that I am falling down and out of combat, I want to feint so that the fighter doesn't know that I am going to attack him"... then tumble 15' for your move. On your next round, your melee attack against the fighter will mislead him. There is no rule that says the attack must occur on the same round, or that you cannot move between the feint and the attack.

You can certainly bluff a crowd by saying "Oh look, black dragon!" but this does not have anything to do with melee combat.
The melee combat should be more compared with a fencing type move... you act is if you are in a habit of leading your attack with a grunt, or a shuffle on your left foot... you do this 3 times in a row, then your next attack comes on an off-tempo time, without the telltale shuffle or grunt... youve just feinted your opponent. This is something that only happens in that up-close melee combat where you are trying to outsmart your opponenet... it is like a physical chess game where you pretend to be weak when you are strong (or vice versa).

When people were dueling, they usually wore red... so that if they were hit, the opponent could not see the blood... this way they could pretend to be unharmed and hopefully win the battle of wills.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnotes:

Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.
Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Gingerbread Guy
02-23-04, 04:12 PM *sigh* Jerk beat me to it. Anyway, I fully agree with everything above.

~Ginger
Beamup
02-23-04, 04:14 PM I disagree with the conclusion you can feint at range. You can feint in melee combat. It says so explicitly, as quoted above. If you're not in melee combat, you can't feint.

Otherwise, I fully agree.
Karadur
02-23-04, 04:55 PM I agree with everything said, except there are other ways of 'tricking' your opponent that doesn't necessarily happen within a 5ft range(less I know) or close quarters combat. The only reason I bring up feint is because, as far as I can tell it is the only relevant combat action in the PHB.
Say your fighting with a pirate near his docked ship, it is feasable to be able to make him look away, regardless of distance from the 'bluffer', with "How long has that ship been burning?" followed by a ghost sound effect or other illusion type spell.- Might not be the best example but you get the point.

An easy solution maybe to change the Improved Feint feat slightly. Would it be unbalancing to maybe just add, -You can also make Feint attempts at range, 30ft or less from the target?
Karadur
02-23-04, 05:00 PM Also according to dictionary.com
feint ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnt)
n.
A feigned attack designed to draw defensive action away from an intended target.
A deceptive action calculated to divert attention from one's real purpose.

I understand the fencing reference, but fencing is not the only form of combat.
By a feint with his dagger i mean, a fake toss, or maybe even a sleight of hand to appear to have put it away or look as though you've lost control of it and nearly dropped it.
olshanski_home
02-23-04, 05:11 PM The rules do not support feinting with ranged combat. I had assumed that you wanted an answer based on the rules of 3.5 D&D.

It would unbalance the rogue class, probably the arcane trickster, and numerous other aspects of the game.

If you think about real life examples, you should be able to sunder items with ranged attacks (Picture a halfling throwing a rock at someone's glass potion bottle hanging on a belt). The rules as written do not allow sunder attacks with ranged weapons, regardless of how much it seems like you should be able to in real life.
msavoy
02-23-04, 05:50 PM Umm... I've never had a problem in DMing with letting players feint from range.

It is still a standard action, or a feat ot make it a move action.

But I also added something to make it a little bit better. Every time a person fails a check with a feint, they get a +2 on the next check agianst the feint. And the effects stack.

That way bluffing doesn't get out of hand, but still allow then do some things. Otherwise why does the Invisible Blade need ranged feats as pre-reqs?

The only way I saw to really mess with this was a high-level ranger with Multi-Shot and Improved Feint. Yeah, it was nasty, but it wasn't near as bad as a barbarian wielding a greatsword using power attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karadur 02-23-04, 03:23 PM	Me and the Bard PC in my group were a bit perplexed about a few topics concerning Bluff in combat and feinting. 1. How can you bluff only one person, surely there should be obvious rules for attempting to fool a crowd of oncoming assailants (chessy ex. "OH MY GOD A BLACK DRAGON! *Points behind mob) Also, what would you do if this situation occured: Enemy A is set on cleaving the PC in half. He moves next to the PC and attacks him. on the PC's turn he tumbles back 15 feet and wants to feint with his dagger.--What should be the modifier (if you would allow the action) for the Enemys Sense Motive check if any, since the PC isn't technically in Melee Combat with attacker. Thanks
olshanski_home 02-23-04, 03:39 PM	By "Make a feint with his dagger" does this mean that you want to throw the dagger? If so, then you cannot do it because you can only feint on a melee attack, and not a ranged attack. Assuming that you want to tumble back and then attack when the fighter next gets within melee range, here is what you do: Make the feint action before the move action... say to the DM "I am going to pretend that I am falling down and out of combat, I want to feint so that the fighter doesn't know that I am going to attack him"... then tumble 15' for your move. On your next round, your melee attack against the fighter will mislead him. There is no rule that says the attack must occur on the same round, or that you cannot move between the feint and the attack. You can certainly bluff a crowd by saying "Oh look, black dragon!" but this does not have anything to do with melee combat. The melee combat should be more compared with a fencing type move... you act is if you are in a habit of leading your attack with a grunt, or a shuffle on your left foot... you do this 3 times in a row, then your next attack comes on an off-tempo time, without the telltale shuffle or grunt... youve just feinted your opponent. This is something that only happens in that up-close melee combat where you are trying to outsmart your opponenet... it is like a physical chess game where you pretend to be weak when you are strong (or vice versa). When people were dueling, they usually wore red... so that if they were hit, the opponent could not see the blood... this way they could pretend to be unharmed and hopefully win the battle of wills. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Footnotes: Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Gingerbread Guy 02-23-04, 04:12 PM	sigh Jerk beat me to it. Anyway, I fully agree with everything above. ~Ginger
Beamup 02-23-04, 04:14 PM	I disagree with the conclusion you can feint at range. You can feint in melee combat. It says so explicitly, as quoted above. If you're not in melee combat, you can't feint. Otherwise, I fully agree.
Karadur 02-23-04, 04:55 PM	I agree with everything said, except there are other ways of 'tricking' your opponent that doesn't necessarily happen within a 5ft range(less I know) or close quarters combat. The only reason I bring up feint is because, as far as I can tell it is the only relevant combat action in the PHB. Say your fighting with a pirate near his docked ship, it is feasable to be able to make him look away, regardless of distance from the 'bluffer', with "How long has that ship been burning?" followed by a ghost sound effect or other illusion type spell.- Might not be the best example but you get the point. An easy solution maybe to change the Improved Feint feat slightly. Would it be unbalancing to maybe just add, -You can also make Feint attempts at range, 30ft or less from the target?
Karadur 02-23-04, 05:00 PM	Also according to dictionary.com feint ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnt) n. A feigned attack designed to draw defensive action away from an intended target. A deceptive action calculated to divert attention from one's real purpose. I understand the fencing reference, but fencing is not the only form of combat. By a feint with his dagger i mean, a fake toss, or maybe even a sleight of hand to appear to have put it away or look as though you've lost control of it and nearly dropped it.
olshanski_home 02-23-04, 05:11 PM	The rules do not support feinting with ranged combat. I had assumed that you wanted an answer based on the rules of 3.5 D&D. It would unbalance the rogue class, probably the arcane trickster, and numerous other aspects of the game. If you think about real life examples, you should be able to sunder items with ranged attacks (Picture a halfling throwing a rock at someone's glass potion bottle hanging on a belt). The rules as written do not allow sunder attacks with ranged weapons, regardless of how much it seems like you should be able to in real life.
msavoy 02-23-04, 05:50 PM	Umm... I've never had a problem in DMing with letting players feint from range. It is still a standard action, or a feat ot make it a move action. But I also added something to make it a little bit better. Every time a person fails a check with a feint, they get a +2 on the next check agianst the feint. And the effects stack. That way bluffing doesn't get out of hand, but still allow then do some things. Otherwise why does the Invisible Blade need ranged feats as pre-reqs? The only way I saw to really mess with this was a high-level ranger with Multi-Shot and Improved Feint. Yeah, it was nasty, but it wasn't near as bad as a barbarian wielding a greatsword using power attack.