bluffing my players...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

bluffing my players...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaques
07-30-04, 03:00 PM a really simply question:

the scenario: the PCs are supposed to go to a market and meet up with someone who is going to give them a box. when they get there, the box is slightly different from one they were told is exactly like the one they we to be given. following me?

sooo, if they question this and the man giving it to them tells them it is the right one [makes a bluff] - how should i do this without making it painfully obvious to them that something's wrong?
Endless Dave
07-30-04, 04:04 PM Make it clear from the very beginning of their interactions with this NPC that you are playing as the NPC. Use an accent or a funny dialect or something. Then when the time comes to lie to them, just lie to them, in character. Unless you're some kind of super-cool master thief, you will give off a few hint that something is up. If the PCs just accept things and move on, well then that's what they do. If they act suspicious, grant a sense motive roll.

[edit] Or just roll the sense motive for them behind your screen whether or not they are suspicious. But I think that's less fun.
PenderGrass
07-30-04, 04:12 PM There are many answers - and some of them depend on how you have been DMing up to this point.

First, if you roll everytime something might be up and don't roll when there is nothing for the PCs to notice - stop it. Roll everytime a Player questions you - this will keep you from being predictable to them.

Second, if you know they have already got a good line on how you operate - use that against them.

Now, if you already have the NPC rolled up or created, just make the rolls ahead of time (what is that? you don't know the PCs Sense Motive skills? for shame...). If you can't do this cause you don't have their skill rolls prior to the encounter - then ask for them prior to starting the next game and make the rolls for them right then and there.

Also, if you are planning on them NOT noticing the wrong box - don't. Let them have whatever chance it is to detect it. Plan for it failing. This is much better than Rail-Roading them into a plot by refusing to give them a fair shake.

I know it sucks, but that is the lot of the DM.

Even when he wants to kill all the PCs, it is ultimately the dice that should decide if anyone lives.
ChaoticGod
07-30-04, 09:33 PM Find or create a graphic of the box that they already have. It should be very distinctive. Print it out and give it to the players as a handout.

Alter the graphic in a subtle but definate way and print that out as a second handout.

When they get to the marketplace give them this second handout as the 2nd box they are being given.

If a character remarks that the boxes are different then have your NPC fasttalk as best you can.

If the players ask for Sense Motive checks then allow them to roll them.

If the players fail the Sense Motive checks or don't ask for them at all then I guess the characters were fooled and accepted the false box.
Lxarth
07-30-04, 09:55 PM Find or create a graphic of the box that they already have...Find or create a graphic of the box that they already have

I disagree...if you give them one picture detailing the 'right' box...then hand them a second one and hope they dont question or think about why they were just handed two picture that are s'pose to be the same.

I think if you just play the encounter as if nothing is different then you are fine...how would the NPC react if the PC's questioned him about the box if the box was ACTUALLY the real one....and not a 'fake'? Just play it like the PCs are the weird ones for thinking that the box they are just giving is different...perhaps they where given wrong information about what the box looked like.
Jaques
07-31-04, 01:10 AM i think you're missing my point.

if i make the rolls for them and they fail the sense motive, what do you say? clearly the player doesn't believe him, and it seems immensely lame to say "you believe him," as i would in the reverse situation wherein the player was bluffing an NPC. of course, if the sense motive succeeds it's easy, you just let the player go on disbelieving.
Ruke
07-31-04, 02:31 AM I don't really like Sense Motive for my players. I think it should be used mainly as a tool to see whether NPCs see through your players lies. (Since you, as DM, already know.) My players get a sense motive check if they specifically ask for it, and to see if someone is under an enchantment, but I'm not going to do the thinking for my players.

I guess, if you really want to, you could tell your players things like "He seems honest enough," or "I dunno. I could have been an honest mistake," all OoC like. If you're feeling especially nasty, or they roll particularly poorly, act like it was your mistake, as DM, for describing the first box wrong earlier.
Ashianyl
07-31-04, 02:45 AM The Sense Motive skill doesn't say anything about forcing the PC to believe the words that were said... just that they sense no malice or lie... I mean, the NPC might really believe he is giving the correct box because he is ignorant.

But that doesn't stop PCs from questioning things if they sense something amiss. If you want to go about the encounter your way, I suppose you would have to be pretty convincing in your acting skills, because no PC will let a subject go off easily when you tell them that the box is different.

Anyway, with regards to the box, I would rather set the encounter with a Spot check DC for the PC receiving the box. That way, if it was a character with a low Spot skill, you could get by the encounter without the PCs asking too many questions.

;)
Autosponge
07-31-04, 09:57 AM 1. Bluff doesn't work on PCs.
2. Any time you are explaining a scenario and it starts with "The PCs are suppose to..." you're doing something wrong.
Jaques
07-31-04, 10:14 AM Excuse me that my phrasing was not to your liking, oh pontifical one. Allow me to reconsider: the players have been asked to retrieve something...

I understand that bluff as the skill is described does pose problems when turned againsts PCs - that's why I asked. But I think I have sorted out my question, thanks all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaques 07-30-04, 03:00 PM	a really simply question: the scenario: the PCs are supposed to go to a market and meet up with someone who is going to give them a box. when they get there, the box is slightly different from one they were told is exactly like the one they we to be given. following me? sooo, if they question this and the man giving it to them tells them it is the right one [makes a bluff] - how should i do this without making it painfully obvious to them that something's wrong?
Endless Dave 07-30-04, 04:04 PM	Make it clear from the very beginning of their interactions with this NPC that you are playing as the NPC. Use an accent or a funny dialect or something. Then when the time comes to lie to them, just lie to them, in character. Unless you're some kind of super-cool master thief, you will give off a few hint that something is up. If the PCs just accept things and move on, well then that's what they do. If they act suspicious, grant a sense motive roll. [edit] Or just roll the sense motive for them behind your screen whether or not they are suspicious. But I think that's less fun.
PenderGrass 07-30-04, 04:12 PM	There are many answers - and some of them depend on how you have been DMing up to this point. First, if you roll everytime something might be up and don't roll when there is nothing for the PCs to notice - stop it. Roll everytime a Player questions you - this will keep you from being predictable to them. Second, if you know they have already got a good line on how you operate - use that against them. Now, if you already have the NPC rolled up or created, just make the rolls ahead of time (what is that? you don't know the PCs Sense Motive skills? for shame...). If you can't do this cause you don't have their skill rolls prior to the encounter - then ask for them prior to starting the next game and make the rolls for them right then and there. Also, if you are planning on them NOT noticing the wrong box - don't. Let them have whatever chance it is to detect it. Plan for it failing. This is much better than Rail-Roading them into a plot by refusing to give them a fair shake. I know it sucks, but that is the lot of the DM. Even when he wants to kill all the PCs, it is ultimately the dice that should decide if anyone lives.
ChaoticGod 07-30-04, 09:33 PM	Find or create a graphic of the box that they already have. It should be very distinctive. Print it out and give it to the players as a handout. Alter the graphic in a subtle but definate way and print that out as a second handout. When they get to the marketplace give them this second handout as the 2nd box they are being given. If a character remarks that the boxes are different then have your NPC fasttalk as best you can. If the players ask for Sense Motive checks then allow them to roll them. If the players fail the Sense Motive checks or don't ask for them at all then I guess the characters were fooled and accepted the false box.
Lxarth 07-30-04, 09:55 PM	Find or create a graphic of the box that they already have...Find or create a graphic of the box that they already have I disagree...if you give them one picture detailing the 'right' box...then hand them a second one and hope they dont question or think about why they were just handed two picture that are s'pose to be the same. I think if you just play the encounter as if nothing is different then you are fine...how would the NPC react if the PC's questioned him about the box if the box was ACTUALLY the real one....and not a 'fake'? Just play it like the PCs are the weird ones for thinking that the box they are just giving is different...perhaps they where given wrong information about what the box looked like.
Jaques 07-31-04, 01:10 AM	i think you're missing my point. if i make the rolls for them and they fail the sense motive, what do you say? clearly the player doesn't believe him, and it seems immensely lame to say "you believe him," as i would in the reverse situation wherein the player was bluffing an NPC. of course, if the sense motive succeeds it's easy, you just let the player go on disbelieving.
Ruke 07-31-04, 02:31 AM	I don't really like Sense Motive for my players. I think it should be used mainly as a tool to see whether NPCs see through your players lies. (Since you, as DM, already know.) My players get a sense motive check if they specifically ask for it, and to see if someone is under an enchantment, but I'm not going to do the thinking for my players. I guess, if you really want to, you could tell your players things like "He seems honest enough," or "I dunno. I could have been an honest mistake," all OoC like. If you're feeling especially nasty, or they roll particularly poorly, act like it was your mistake, as DM, for describing the first box wrong earlier.
Ashianyl 07-31-04, 02:45 AM	The Sense Motive skill doesn't say anything about forcing the PC to believe the words that were said... just that they sense no malice or lie... I mean, the NPC might really believe he is giving the correct box because he is ignorant. But that doesn't stop PCs from questioning things if they sense something amiss. If you want to go about the encounter your way, I suppose you would have to be pretty convincing in your acting skills, because no PC will let a subject go off easily when you tell them that the box is different. Anyway, with regards to the box, I would rather set the encounter with a Spot check DC for the PC receiving the box. That way, if it was a character with a low Spot skill, you could get by the encounter without the PCs asking too many questions. ;)
Autosponge 07-31-04, 09:57 AM	1. Bluff doesn't work on PCs. 2. Any time you are explaining a scenario and it starts with "The PCs are suppose to..." you're doing something wrong.
Jaques 07-31-04, 10:14 AM	Excuse me that my phrasing was not to your liking, oh pontifical one. Allow me to reconsider: the players have been asked to retrieve something... I understand that bluff as the skill is described does pose problems when turned againsts PCs - that's why I asked. But I think I have sorted out my question, thanks all.