Bo9S Troubles! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bo9S Troubles! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NRLlewellyn
11-28-06, 01:19 PM Hey all...

I've could use some help with one of my players. (or, more specifically, his character!) Here's a rough outline of the character:
- Swordsage/Warblade/Champion of Corellon Larethian (Lev 11 I think... my notes are @ home)
- Custom-made weapon of legacy
- Fairly high-powered cohort

Now, I like the character, and the player is a really good RPer. However, there's two problems with the character:
1.) Nothing can hit him--He's got Celestial Armor, plus the Swordsage's "add Wis to AC", plus Uncanny Dodge from Warblade. In other words, his flat-footed and touch ACs end up being ~30. I usually need a Nat 18 or higher just to get a hit. Granted, I could fudge die rolls, but I prefer to avoid that.

2.) His damage/attack bonuses are nuts. He's almost guaranteed to hit anything, and he averages 40+ dmg per hit. In general, this means that he wipes the floor with anything I throw at him.

These things wouldn't be an issue normally, except the other players are starting to get tired of it. I'm not entirely sure what to do, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Salla
11-28-06, 01:27 PM He has a high-powered cohort and a custom weapon of legacy, which probably means 'tailored to his specific needs'. That's probably your problem right there.

I'm unfamiliar with Celestial Armor, but you might also want to audit this guy's wealth to make sure he's not overequipped. AC 30 at 11th level is about par for the course for an 11th level frontliner, if perhaps a bit low. Is the Celetial Armor light armor? The Swordsage AC bonus only applies in light armor.

Use spells. I'm unfamiliar with the Champion of Corellon, so I'm not sure how his saves are, if he doesn't have evasion, fireball his butt.

Vary your opposition. Throw foes at him that have DR other than magic. Use ranged attacks. Use FLIERS; the Bo9s characters are very melee focussed, so something like a flying warlock will mess him up.

Make sure you know the Bo9s rules for expending and recovering maneuvers; no redundant readying, only use once between recoveries.
NRLlewellyn
11-28-06, 01:48 PM Celestial Armor can be seen here: in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor)
It's basically +3 chainmail that counts as light armor. It's expensive, but that and his WoL are pretty much his only two items.

More spells is a good idea. Unfortunately, he'll be picking up evasion whenever he gets to 9th level Swordsage, but I think that's a ways off still.

Flying enemies are also a good idea (hadn't tried that yet... emphasis on the "yet" ;-D)

I also like the idea of archers/other ranged attacks, but the problem hitting him still exists--his AC only starts at 30ish. It's been known to go up to 36+ when he's using the correct stance and he's getting various bonuses from his cohort (who is a basically a buff caster). Granted, I will re-read the "Tactics and Tips" article on "Hitting High Armor Class" when I get a chance. My problem is that if I take a random level 10 monster.... 10-headed hydra for example, it's bite attack is at +14. Therefore, if his AC is 34, the moster would need a Nat 20 to hit in most cases. Bleh.

Anyway, any more tips would be appreciated!
DarkNick
11-28-06, 02:06 PM Is the issue more that he is hard to hit or that he is outshinning the other characters?

If it is simply that he is hard to hit just adjust your tactics as others suggested. Things like range touch spells make a difference, multiple opponants (your going to hit him eventually), undead with touch attacks...etc..

If the issue is really that he is outshinning the other players then that's a little trickier.
You have options though, here are a few:
Talk to the player and see if he will agree to tone his character down, maybe get rid of the cohort (alternatively you could target the cohort and kill it off).
Boost the power of the other characters to be of a similar level and up the power of the campaign.
Wrap up the game and start a new campaign - I've run a number of campaigns from lev 1 and despite best intentions end up unbalanced (I suspect I'm not very good at DMing high level games, I don't make the transition very well :eek: ). Usually this is a natural place to stop and it gives the players a fresh start.
Change the focus of the game - reduce the amount of combats and create games that require diplomacy, cunning, bluff, puzzle solving to get through
mlund
11-28-06, 02:13 PM Celestial Armor is part of the SRD. It is +3 Chainmail that counts as light armor and has a max Dex bonus of 8 and grants Fly once per day. So you've got +8 AC from Armor. It is named armor, so there are no variants or upgrades for it in the standard rules.

It is pretty efficient in terms of raw cost considering the 16K price on Winged Boots that you seldom activate 3 times a day. However its AC features aren't anything to write home about unless you've got 22+ Dexterity and that +5 Max Dex Mod. cap from Mithral Breastplate +3 is cramping your style.

I don't see anything in here from Book of Nine Swords that is particularly noteworthy. A Wisdom bonus to AC is about the only thing that contributes to this issue at all - and fighters who dump enough ability points into Wisdom aren't usually optimized killing machines to begin with.

I also don't see how his Touch AC can be in the 30s at all. Even with a Wisdom and AC bonus to AC, he's not breaking 25 unless he's grossly over-stat'd or dropped a whole lot of money on a very high-end Ring of Protection.

An 11-headed Hydra (normal) is a CR 10 encounter, and it has a +11 BAB with a 23 Strength, that's 11 attacks at +18 melee! Nevermind the fact that it has a +25 Grapple check. If can and will hit an AC 30+ character and can them focus on pinning him, at which point his AC becomes irrelevant and he becomes extremely dead unless his fellow adventures aid him quickly.

- Marty Lund
AntiDjinn
11-28-06, 02:29 PM Domination, enervation (or other source of negative levels), stat drain (try Ego Whip if you use the XPH), and others. There are tons of effects that are not even concerned with AC and that can't be avoided with evasion. A character with a very high AC and good damage output is a particularly tempting target for mind control; why have a mediocre puppet when you have a flying cuisinart? When the BBEG sees a tank like this the first thing he is going to want to go is slap a Geas on him, try evading that. If he has a good Will save as well then Power Word: Stun should buy a bad guy time to stack on a debuff to lower the character's resistance.

And I believe the DM should build and play cohorts, not give them to players as a second PC. A cohort should be loyal, but not a robot and should select his own feats, skills, and spells/powers. A legacy weapon, even a custom one, should have its own agenda too.
NRLlewellyn
11-28-06, 02:34 PM A character with a very high AC and good damage output is a particularly tempting target for mind control; why have a mediocre puppet when you have a flying cuisinart? When the BBEG sees a tank like this the first thing he is going to want to go is slap a Geas on him, try evading that.

Hrm... not a bad idea...

And I believe the DM should build and play cohorts, not give them to players as a second PC. A cohort should be loyal, but not a robot and should select his own feats, skills, and spells/powers.

Yes... I agree... alas, I failed to realize this BEFORE I let him design the character. I will be having a discussion with him about this at some point and will be running the cohort once I've had a talk with him.

A legacy weapon, even a custom one, should have its own agenda too.

Erm... He didn't take the intelligent legacy ability, so it can't have its own agenda.
Phantem2
11-28-06, 02:37 PM t-rex, those things have a rediculously high to hit for there lvl,

otherwise a halfdragon fire giant with a pumped str- bane of all melee pcs

fire giant, quick, easy to use and hard hitting.
NRLlewellyn
11-28-06, 02:40 PM An 11-headed Hydra (normal) is a CR 10 encounter, and it has a +11 BAB with a 23 Strength, that's 11 attacks at +18 melee! Nevermind the fact that it has a +25 Grapple check. If can and will hit an AC 30+ character and can them focus on pinning him, at which point his AC becomes irrelevant and he becomes extremely dead unless his fellow adventures aid him quickly.

Yes... I have noticed that grapple attacks are particularly effective against him... I'm not 100% proficient in the grappling rules, so I shall have to re-read them (again).
ressurrector
11-28-06, 02:55 PM I'm assuming you have a high-powered campaign here, seeing as he's got his own Weapon of Legacy, a fairly costly armor, and his stats have got to be something special to handle the High Wis/Dex/Str/Cha he apparently has.
I'll assume his Con is decent as well.
If you post more specifics it'd be easier to see where the problem lies.

As far as the Bo9S, I've got 2 players playing full Crusader and full Warblade, and a cleric of Streingth with a level of Crusader going to RKV(changed for his deity).

So far no issues with power levels.
NRLlewellyn
11-28-06, 03:19 PM If you post more specifics it'd be easier to see where the problem lies.

I've put in an e-mail to him to get exact numbers for AC and such... will post when I get them (I have a copy of his char. sheet, but it's outdated)

So far no issues with power levels.

I don't doubt that... the player in question is quite the powergamer, so he tends to pull down every feat/class feature possible to give him a boost. It's probably partly my fault as well, as I haven't looked over his character in the last level or two.
ressurrector
11-28-06, 03:54 PM Remember that the Warblade and Champion of Corellon Larethian levels only improve his Initiator level by 1 for 2 for Swordsage, and Swordsage and Champion of Corellon Larethian only improve 1 for 2 his Warblade Initiator Level.

Also, make sure he isn't picking up any new maneuvers on his Champion of Corellon Larethian levels, and he's only switching out maneuvers at the correct levels (4th, 6th, etc... of Swordsage individually, same for Warblade, they don't stack for these purposes...)

If he's being cheesy, which I'm assuming he is, the maneuver/Initiator Level system makes it hard to notice on first glance.
NRLlewellyn
11-28-06, 04:12 PM Remember that the Warblade and Champion of Corellon Larethian levels only improve his Initiator level by 1 for 2 for Swordsage, and Swordsage and Champion of Corellon Larethian only improve 1 for 2 his Warblade Initiator Level.

Also, make sure he isn't picking up any new maneuvers on his Champion of Corellon Larethian levels, and he's only switching out maneuvers at the correct levels (4th, 6th, etc... of Swordsage individually, same for Warblade, they don't stack for these purposes...)

Yeah... I'll have to double-check those. I haven't had that many problems with his maneuvers--he generally sticks to one or two strikes and maybe 3 other movement maneuvers.

If he's being cheesy, which I'm assuming he is, the maneuver/Initiator Level system makes it hard to notice on first glance.

Fortunately, he's actually a really good player--he just likes to see how powerful of a character he can make inside the structure of the rules.
DarknessEternal
11-28-06, 04:21 PM Many CR11 encounters have options and attacks that don't require to-hit rolls at all. Add to this the number that are adding +20ish to attacks anyway, and I fail to see the problem.

If you need specific examples, the monster section of the SRD and the spell lists of clerics/wizards/druids are chock full of them.
Aryxbez
11-28-06, 05:13 PM I'll need to see his ability scores and other info, How does he have that AC?

Also what is his weapon of Legacy exactly? You do realize there are penlaties
right? also that he has to pay a little xp for every ritual? also every ritual has
a prequiste? make one of his rituals force him to be alone and NO Blade magic
(manevers)

Also get rid of his cohort and have him get another feat with it

If he is overshadowing the other players, put it to a vote, Thus just get rid
of his character, If it is making it bad for the players.
mlund
11-28-06, 05:59 PM AC 30+ isn't that hard at Level 11.

You figure Celestial Armor is +3 Chain Mail with a max Dexterity Bonus of +8. It also runs you about 1/3 of your total average wealth for an 11th level character.

Legacy weapons with activated abilities tend to cost increasing amounts of wealth, though. I'm not sure just how powerful this weapon has become. It is up to the DM's discretion as to how much it costs and how powerful it is. They really tend to be as much plot-devices as treasure items.

Anyway, you've got an Elf on your hands here, so it isn't unreasonable to see an 18 starting Dexterity even on a 25 point buy. A 28 buy would give you some point left over for a reasonable Con and Wis on a Dex-based fighter.

Buy Level 8 you've pushed your natural Dexterity to 20. If the legacy weapon hasn't hit Greater Legacy yet, there is probably room in the budget for a +4 Dexterity Enhancement, a +2 Wisdom Enhancement, a +2 Ring of Protection, and a couple of other bonuses on a Buckler or Amulet of Natural Armor somewhere.

So we're looking at Dex 24 (+7), Wisdom 16 (+3), Armor (+8), Shield (+3), Natural Armor (+1), Deflection (+2) for 34 AC as a natural basis point before any silly Legacy powers, Luck, or Dodge bonuses.

- Marty Lund
NRLlewellyn
11-29-06, 02:24 PM Thanks for all the suggestions... I think I can avoid killing of the character for now, thanks to some new options presented to me. :-) I'll also be double-checking his (and all of my other players') character sheets soon, since I haven't done any character audits yet for this campaign.

Thanks again for the help!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NRLlewellyn 11-28-06, 01:19 PM	Hey all... I've could use some help with one of my players. (or, more specifically, his character!) Here's a rough outline of the character: - Swordsage/Warblade/Champion of Corellon Larethian (Lev 11 I think... my notes are @ home) - Custom-made weapon of legacy - Fairly high-powered cohort Now, I like the character, and the player is a really good RPer. However, there's two problems with the character: 1.) Nothing can hit him--He's got Celestial Armor, plus the Swordsage's "add Wis to AC", plus Uncanny Dodge from Warblade. In other words, his flat-footed and touch ACs end up being ~30. I usually need a Nat 18 or higher just to get a hit. Granted, I could fudge die rolls, but I prefer to avoid that. 2.) His damage/attack bonuses are nuts. He's almost guaranteed to hit anything, and he averages 40+ dmg per hit. In general, this means that he wipes the floor with anything I throw at him. These things wouldn't be an issue normally, except the other players are starting to get tired of it. I'm not entirely sure what to do, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
Salla 11-28-06, 01:27 PM	He has a high-powered cohort and a custom weapon of legacy, which probably means 'tailored to his specific needs'. That's probably your problem right there. I'm unfamiliar with Celestial Armor, but you might also want to audit this guy's wealth to make sure he's not overequipped. AC 30 at 11th level is about par for the course for an 11th level frontliner, if perhaps a bit low. Is the Celetial Armor light armor? The Swordsage AC bonus only applies in light armor. Use spells. I'm unfamiliar with the Champion of Corellon, so I'm not sure how his saves are, if he doesn't have evasion, fireball his butt. Vary your opposition. Throw foes at him that have DR other than magic. Use ranged attacks. Use FLIERS; the Bo9s characters are very melee focussed, so something like a flying warlock will mess him up. Make sure you know the Bo9s rules for expending and recovering maneuvers; no redundant readying, only use once between recoveries.
NRLlewellyn 11-28-06, 01:48 PM	Celestial Armor can be seen here: in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) It's basically +3 chainmail that counts as light armor. It's expensive, but that and his WoL are pretty much his only two items. More spells is a good idea. Unfortunately, he'll be picking up evasion whenever he gets to 9th level Swordsage, but I think that's a ways off still. Flying enemies are also a good idea (hadn't tried that yet... emphasis on the "yet" ;-D) I also like the idea of archers/other ranged attacks, but the problem hitting him still exists--his AC only starts at 30ish. It's been known to go up to 36+ when he's using the correct stance and he's getting various bonuses from his cohort (who is a basically a buff caster). Granted, I will re-read the "Tactics and Tips" article on "Hitting High Armor Class" when I get a chance. My problem is that if I take a random level 10 monster.... 10-headed hydra for example, it's bite attack is at +14. Therefore, if his AC is 34, the moster would need a Nat 20 to hit in most cases. Bleh. Anyway, any more tips would be appreciated!
DarkNick 11-28-06, 02:06 PM	Is the issue more that he is hard to hit or that he is outshinning the other characters? If it is simply that he is hard to hit just adjust your tactics as others suggested. Things like range touch spells make a difference, multiple opponants (your going to hit him eventually), undead with touch attacks...etc.. If the issue is really that he is outshinning the other players then that's a little trickier. You have options though, here are a few: Talk to the player and see if he will agree to tone his character down, maybe get rid of the cohort (alternatively you could target the cohort and kill it off). Boost the power of the other characters to be of a similar level and up the power of the campaign. Wrap up the game and start a new campaign - I've run a number of campaigns from lev 1 and despite best intentions end up unbalanced (I suspect I'm not very good at DMing high level games, I don't make the transition very well :eek: ). Usually this is a natural place to stop and it gives the players a fresh start. Change the focus of the game - reduce the amount of combats and create games that require diplomacy, cunning, bluff, puzzle solving to get through
mlund 11-28-06, 02:13 PM	Celestial Armor is part of the SRD. It is +3 Chainmail that counts as light armor and has a max Dex bonus of 8 and grants Fly once per day. So you've got +8 AC from Armor. It is named armor, so there are no variants or upgrades for it in the standard rules. It is pretty efficient in terms of raw cost considering the 16K price on Winged Boots that you seldom activate 3 times a day. However its AC features aren't anything to write home about unless you've got 22+ Dexterity and that +5 Max Dex Mod. cap from Mithral Breastplate +3 is cramping your style. I don't see anything in here from Book of Nine Swords that is particularly noteworthy. A Wisdom bonus to AC is about the only thing that contributes to this issue at all - and fighters who dump enough ability points into Wisdom aren't usually optimized killing machines to begin with. I also don't see how his Touch AC can be in the 30s at all. Even with a Wisdom and AC bonus to AC, he's not breaking 25 unless he's grossly over-stat'd or dropped a whole lot of money on a very high-end Ring of Protection. An 11-headed Hydra (normal) is a CR 10 encounter, and it has a +11 BAB with a 23 Strength, that's 11 attacks at +18 melee! Nevermind the fact that it has a +25 Grapple check. If can and will hit an AC 30+ character and can them focus on pinning him, at which point his AC becomes irrelevant and he becomes extremely dead unless his fellow adventures aid him quickly. - Marty Lund
AntiDjinn 11-28-06, 02:29 PM	Domination, enervation (or other source of negative levels), stat drain (try Ego Whip if you use the XPH), and others. There are tons of effects that are not even concerned with AC and that can't be avoided with evasion. A character with a very high AC and good damage output is a particularly tempting target for mind control; why have a mediocre puppet when you have a flying cuisinart? When the BBEG sees a tank like this the first thing he is going to want to go is slap a Geas on him, try evading that. If he has a good Will save as well then Power Word: Stun should buy a bad guy time to stack on a debuff to lower the character's resistance. And I believe the DM should build and play cohorts, not give them to players as a second PC. A cohort should be loyal, but not a robot and should select his own feats, skills, and spells/powers. A legacy weapon, even a custom one, should have its own agenda too.
NRLlewellyn 11-28-06, 02:34 PM	A character with a very high AC and good damage output is a particularly tempting target for mind control; why have a mediocre puppet when you have a flying cuisinart? When the BBEG sees a tank like this the first thing he is going to want to go is slap a Geas on him, try evading that. Hrm... not a bad idea... And I believe the DM should build and play cohorts, not give them to players as a second PC. A cohort should be loyal, but not a robot and should select his own feats, skills, and spells/powers. Yes... I agree... alas, I failed to realize this BEFORE I let him design the character. I will be having a discussion with him about this at some point and will be running the cohort once I've had a talk with him. A legacy weapon, even a custom one, should have its own agenda too. Erm... He didn't take the intelligent legacy ability, so it can't have its own agenda.
Phantem2 11-28-06, 02:37 PM	t-rex, those things have a rediculously high to hit for there lvl, otherwise a halfdragon fire giant with a pumped str- bane of all melee pcs fire giant, quick, easy to use and hard hitting.
NRLlewellyn 11-28-06, 02:40 PM	An 11-headed Hydra (normal) is a CR 10 encounter, and it has a +11 BAB with a 23 Strength, that's 11 attacks at +18 melee! Nevermind the fact that it has a +25 Grapple check. If can and will hit an AC 30+ character and can them focus on pinning him, at which point his AC becomes irrelevant and he becomes extremely dead unless his fellow adventures aid him quickly. Yes... I have noticed that grapple attacks are particularly effective against him... I'm not 100% proficient in the grappling rules, so I shall have to re-read them (again).
ressurrector 11-28-06, 02:55 PM	I'm assuming you have a high-powered campaign here, seeing as he's got his own Weapon of Legacy, a fairly costly armor, and his stats have got to be something special to handle the High Wis/Dex/Str/Cha he apparently has. I'll assume his Con is decent as well. If you post more specifics it'd be easier to see where the problem lies. As far as the Bo9S, I've got 2 players playing full Crusader and full Warblade, and a cleric of Streingth with a level of Crusader going to RKV(changed for his deity). So far no issues with power levels.
NRLlewellyn 11-28-06, 03:19 PM	If you post more specifics it'd be easier to see where the problem lies. I've put in an e-mail to him to get exact numbers for AC and such... will post when I get them (I have a copy of his char. sheet, but it's outdated) So far no issues with power levels. I don't doubt that... the player in question is quite the powergamer, so he tends to pull down every feat/class feature possible to give him a boost. It's probably partly my fault as well, as I haven't looked over his character in the last level or two.
ressurrector 11-28-06, 03:54 PM	Remember that the Warblade and Champion of Corellon Larethian levels only improve his Initiator level by 1 for 2 for Swordsage, and Swordsage and Champion of Corellon Larethian only improve 1 for 2 his Warblade Initiator Level. Also, make sure he isn't picking up any new maneuvers on his Champion of Corellon Larethian levels, and he's only switching out maneuvers at the correct levels (4th, 6th, etc... of Swordsage individually, same for Warblade, they don't stack for these purposes...) If he's being cheesy, which I'm assuming he is, the maneuver/Initiator Level system makes it hard to notice on first glance.
NRLlewellyn 11-28-06, 04:12 PM	Remember that the Warblade and Champion of Corellon Larethian levels only improve his Initiator level by 1 for 2 for Swordsage, and Swordsage and Champion of Corellon Larethian only improve 1 for 2 his Warblade Initiator Level. Also, make sure he isn't picking up any new maneuvers on his Champion of Corellon Larethian levels, and he's only switching out maneuvers at the correct levels (4th, 6th, etc... of Swordsage individually, same for Warblade, they don't stack for these purposes...) Yeah... I'll have to double-check those. I haven't had that many problems with his maneuvers--he generally sticks to one or two strikes and maybe 3 other movement maneuvers. If he's being cheesy, which I'm assuming he is, the maneuver/Initiator Level system makes it hard to notice on first glance. Fortunately, he's actually a really good player--he just likes to see how powerful of a character he can make inside the structure of the rules.
DarknessEternal 11-28-06, 04:21 PM	Many CR11 encounters have options and attacks that don't require to-hit rolls at all. Add to this the number that are adding +20ish to attacks anyway, and I fail to see the problem. If you need specific examples, the monster section of the SRD and the spell lists of clerics/wizards/druids are chock full of them.
Aryxbez 11-28-06, 05:13 PM	I'll need to see his ability scores and other info, How does he have that AC? Also what is his weapon of Legacy exactly? You do realize there are penlaties right? also that he has to pay a little xp for every ritual? also every ritual has a prequiste? make one of his rituals force him to be alone and NO Blade magic (manevers) Also get rid of his cohort and have him get another feat with it If he is overshadowing the other players, put it to a vote, Thus just get rid of his character, If it is making it bad for the players.
mlund 11-28-06, 05:59 PM	AC 30+ isn't that hard at Level 11. You figure Celestial Armor is +3 Chain Mail with a max Dexterity Bonus of +8. It also runs you about 1/3 of your total average wealth for an 11th level character. Legacy weapons with activated abilities tend to cost increasing amounts of wealth, though. I'm not sure just how powerful this weapon has become. It is up to the DM's discretion as to how much it costs and how powerful it is. They really tend to be as much plot-devices as treasure items. Anyway, you've got an Elf on your hands here, so it isn't unreasonable to see an 18 starting Dexterity even on a 25 point buy. A 28 buy would give you some point left over for a reasonable Con and Wis on a Dex-based fighter. Buy Level 8 you've pushed your natural Dexterity to 20. If the legacy weapon hasn't hit Greater Legacy yet, there is probably room in the budget for a +4 Dexterity Enhancement, a +2 Wisdom Enhancement, a +2 Ring of Protection, and a couple of other bonuses on a Buckler or Amulet of Natural Armor somewhere. So we're looking at Dex 24 (+7), Wisdom 16 (+3), Armor (+8), Shield (+3), Natural Armor (+1), Deflection (+2) for 34 AC as a natural basis point before any silly Legacy powers, Luck, or Dodge bonuses. - Marty Lund
NRLlewellyn 11-29-06, 02:24 PM	Thanks for all the suggestions... I think I can avoid killing of the character for now, thanks to some new options presented to me. :-) I'll also be double-checking his (and all of my other players') character sheets soon, since I haven't done any character audits yet for this campaign. Thanks again for the help!