Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragonspirit 07-26-04, 05:25 AM	"Let me s'plain. No, there is to much, let me summerize." ::sigh:: Get comfy... About a month ago, the module 'Castle of Maure' came out in the newest Dungeon magazine. It's a full magazine of one gigantic maama jama of a module and coincidentally was an almost glove fit for my party level wise. I've been running my campaign for over a year and a half. A few of the players, recently (bare with me, this is a tangent that will go somewhere later in the post) got access to their original characters I introduced them into D&D with as a one time only deal to give them a little extra something for the campaign (didn't do this specifically for the module). We had stopped for like a month, and I wanted to renew their interest. I normally don't do resurrections or keep them very limited so death 'means' something. After all, without risk there is no reward. Another character has had their original the whole time, so needless to say she was quite attached to hers. Anyhow, with a few tweaks to the existing storyline, we were off to Castle Maure. Things went ok for awhile, and then it happened. They ran into a patrol of bodeks. Bodeks, for those not in the know, are rather defensive and resistant creatures with a death gaze attack. Now, I am not new to the game but I am somewhat new to the 3.5 system (went from 2 to this). I used gaze as I thought it worked (actually nerfed it compared to how it's suppose to work) and it ended up killing one of the characters. Ok, so that's the way it goes. Player wasn't too mad, he made a new character, and forward to our next (hopefully not last) session. The characters, after some frustration, manage to make it into the Castle. After exploring it for a bit (and not too much of it) first went to a chamber where one of the players was compulsed into random forfeiture of a couple items. It ended up not being too bad overall (even the player in question wasn't that angry). Then, they explored a backway and as luck would have it found another group of the aforementioned bodeks. Entrance into the room was tight, and manuvering was impossible for more than a couple members of the group. A single 5ft corridor that goes down, to the right, down (and access to the door), down two more squares, and then to the right to a different area blocked by another door. Here's the series of events- 1. Player 'Ranger' opens the first door after listening. After declaring that he does so, player 'Cleric' tries to stop him so that he may renew a spell first. Since the ranger had already declared he opened the door, but trying to be fair, I have them roll initiatives to determine if the Cleric can stop him. The ranger wins the roll so the door opens. 2. It's Bodeks. Now, the room calls for 6. But my party is six members strong, and this calls for a party for 4. So I adjust the number to eight (this was a low estimate on my part, but it's early and I don't want to over power it while still accounting for party size). I roll for surprise and no one is surprised. Player Cleric was going to be surprised, but after arguing he wanted to cast a spell as the door opened I allowed him to on the condition that that would be his action this turn. 3. A round passes. Those that are close enough to do anything for the combat are Ranger, Cleric, and Shapechanger. Players look through guide at gaze attacks to look for advantages. After research, we learn new information. a) Players may either avert or close eyes, at the risk of giving partial and total concealment. b) Gaze attacks are both 'passive' (meaning players who had eyes open make a save each round on their turn for each bodek they could look at) and the bodek on it's turn can use it as an attack (meaning bodek can force one player looking to make a save). 4) I rule that since a full round has passed, we will start using the regular rules at the beginning of the next round. 5) Player Ranger makes lots of saves (he only fails on a 1). He chooses to avert eyes and fight using power attack. He's doing modest damage but keeping the room bottlenecked. The Cleric (a newer player fyi) decides to cast death ward on himself to the consternation of the others. Player Shapechanger uses an ability to pull one bodek into his square and fight him in grapple. Player Monk tries to help but ends up hitting partner. Player Sorcerous formulates plan to make three delayed fireballs and throw them in room in four rounds, and tells party. A round earlier, she cast greater invisibility as a sort of afterthought before she thought of the plan (NOTE: IMPORTANT) 6) Player Ranger eventually dies by rolling a 1. Other players grumble about Player Cleric not casting Death Ward on him (he was taking almost all gaze attacks). Player Cleric takes spot and starts turning undead somewhat effectively on the bodeks. Player Druid takes Player Clerics old spot and starts casting pillars of fire/holy into the room (the name eludes me at the moment). 7) Rounds pass until it is almost the Sorcerous turn. The Druid moves out of his square back one for the Sorcerous to move into. The Cleric also moves after his action behind the sorcerous. Unfortunetly, this poses a problem. 8) A bodek gets to go before the sorcerous and moves out of the room (no longer bottlenecked) and next to the Druid. Unfortunetly, this puts the Sorcerous in view of the Bodek and she fails her save and dies. She then drops her three delayed fireballs and kills the cleric, and almost kills the druid. The sorcerous wasn't very celebratory that she killed some bodeks in the process (she was also the one who has NEVER died in a YEAR AND A HALF and that's not for lack of chances). She's also my wife so she doesn't exactly hold back with me. And she was double plus annoyed when she remembered she had cast invisibility (and thus was not at risk to the gaze). 9) The monk, trying to help, opens his eyes and fails his very first save and dies. Yes, he too only died if he rolled a one. Yes, I laughed when I wanted to cry (as much as I joke, I really don't like to see my players die). But he rolled a 1. On one chance. When the Druid enduring about 1000 rolls and the Ranger 1001 before he died with the same odds. 10) The rest of the party (both of them) finish off the last bodek. ---- So, um, yeah our session finishes off there. Now let me get to the bad part - the aftermath. We obviously discussed the situation, and when players get mad, there is one person who is downhill when it starts to roll. They are mad I added more Bodeks to that fight. They are mad there were ANY Bodeks and I didn't remove them. They are mad they didn't get some of their animals companions, granted God gifts, etc etc. They are mad at the module. They are mad at some of my houserules, namely that they feel underpowered for their treasure levels. They are mad at each other. ---- And here are some of the things that were suggested, asked for, demanded- 1. Go back in time and do it over. I rejected this, I believe that is dumb. They argued it would preserve the campaign and that they should get it because I forgot about the invisibility. But I think it's just not possible for a DM to remember everything, and if something gets forgot it's the burden of the player to remember and remind. One player argued 'shouldnt it be up to us, not you?' I laughed but he countered that he was serious. 2. They want to bring back other dead characters, and have them bring back all who died. This annoys me for reasons I gave earlier in the post. Another argued they should get to 'because it's fun' and another said it doesn't need to be realistic because it's 'just a game'. It's just a frustrating idea to me though since if there are no costs, drawbacks or permanency to deaths than we might as well throw away the dice and play a game of 'choose your own adventure'. Be all that as it may though, the fact remains that my party was almost TPK'd. The players don't like instant kill effects, and I'm not the biggest fan either, but when I countered there were answers and items they scoffed. I understand in part, because such items are practically useless until in those extreme situations where they are golden. At the same time, at higher levels those type of things are part of the reality as conventional attacks are just not as effective in providing a challenge. As it stands, they don't want to play this module anymore unless I agree to eliminate the bodeks and instant kill things, and they want their old characters back. I of course want everyone to have fun, but I feel at times they get in this gang mentality to try and pressure me into giving them whatever they ask for, even when I think it would cheapen the game. So.. um... feeback? Opinions? Suggestions? Life preservers?
Insancipitory By Nature 07-26-04, 07:11 AM	I know a guy.... And for the longest time I could not fathom his style of play. The way he approached the game, it was crazy. He, under NO circumstances will tolerate a reqinding of the tape. There are certainly style things too, where and when he chooses to take dramatic cues. But running or playing, he won't tolerate any kind of rewind, no matter what, even if it's wholly beneficial. He sees D&D as part story and part game, as do many. But in that game element, any revision is akin to a kind of cheating for him. He'll try mightily to get away with stuff, Wiley E. Coyote physics included. But once the dye is cast that is that. For me. Well I'm more flexible. The game is all about the cooprative storytelling. The function of the dice is to describe the mixed fortunes of some cast of characters. And part of my job is to dress the sets, hire, direct, and write a little for featured extras. Mostly, I'm the sacred guardian of a consistant reality. To help me out in this respect, I've got a set of rules, and my own spectacular judgement. I'd hate for the wrong thing to happen because I was unable to understand what a player was unable to articulate to me. They should have the proper reaction for their action. Everyone should be able to agree on what happens, if not always on what should happen. The challenge in the game is "Can we playing the game tell a compeling story that mirrors the fortune and misfortune as prescribed by some arbitrary number of die rolls?" I've dabbled with save or dies over the course of playing. Sometimes I was able to worm my way out without hitting the editing bay, sometimes it was a lost cause. That's part of the game. "It all comes down to this," is a tried and true storytelling tool, and I think any storytelling game needs it. But for the gulf between these two ideals.... Well, your game isn't necessarily totaled. You can still have your cake and eat it too. If you make a couple of minor concessions. I don't know what story arcs you have or have had. But it would seem fantastically improbable that there isn't a single solution that would stick to at least one of them, even if it has to be a new branch. The first and most obvious solution is miracle. If the survivors have their companions bodies, they've got a two parter. Find a way to preserve them, and find someone somewhere who can and could be convinced to perform such a supplication on their behalf. Maybe they could buy it off with a nice quest, retriveing an important holy relic from the castle they love to hate. Perhaps what once was an artifact of unfathomable good, in slowly being devoured/destroyed/corrupted to the powers within the unholy fortress, and might succumb unleashing unspeakable evil upon their world. Then there is the deal with the devil. Same miracle. Different God and wholly different out come. Depends on the devil here. A greedy trickster God might want some *thing*, and why not a powerful holy relic beloved by another God to hold hostage. While an Evil divinity might be content with their suffering, and lay upon them a quest or curse to work some evil in direct opposition to the specific Good they prefer to champion. The trick is can they find a loophole? Greater ally? With an Evil God, I'd probably lean to bestowing a curse that's ironic and greatly inconvienent in nature, that also has a particularly unsavory deed which will lift the curse and seemingly necessitate an alighnment shift strong enough to win the God a near convert. That might make your players feel put upon, or it might mirror that "No free lunch" grim and gritty feel I get the impression you're going for. If they don't have the bodies. I'd really be a bastard. Who doesn't bring their buddies back!? Well, I'd probably go a little out there. Simple version is I'd try to guide them towards a deck of many things. (A curious dragon, posesses a deck, but dares not draw of it, and so seeks volunteers. Whatever.) One of them at least would draw for real. If the first guy drew The Moon, I'd roll 1d4 if I'd determined before hand that he needed 1 wish to bring back his buddies corpses. If I'd determined he'd need 4 I'd probably just roll the d4 openly and give him 4 anyway. The reason being, if it comes up four, you don't ever have to say, "Yeah, it was convienent so to move it along." And hey they'll 100% assume it, or 25% they'll wonder just how much of a hard ass you are. If the first guy didn't completely luck out, he gets what he gets. I could probably work almost any negative result from the deck into the current arc. Then the second guy, probably the one who didn't risk (depending on how many draws were chosen) would get what was necessary as probably his first draw, to make it more probable, and build the tension for his remaining draws. And at some point along the way, I'd try to hit them with a major henchman who has a well thought out esxape plan. Who might also fit in with either other forces of darkness, or the castle current, and would have as his single highest level spell slot a nasty divine negative energy field spell which would be engineered such that it was most likely to deal about exactly as much xp damage as they were to be ahead of the rest of the party come miracle time. Yes, I'd actually try to figure out how to build a spell that sucked off life force in the form of xp as opposed to just level drain, although if the side adventure got out of hand, I might just resort to that. Their bonus is, I might be off, and they get to keep their stuff and I'm not going to make anyone share, particularly with dead people. What of the players who's PC's are taking a dirt nap. Well, either condense the interveing story without them, or better yet enlist them. They can create and run PC-NPC's or play your monsters for you, while you do lighter rules supervision duty. In either case, I'd definately force a return to the castle, just so they can get over the hump. -=--------------=- Ok. One thing I didn't get. You're not a fan of save or die, right? I understand sticking with the 4 bodaks, they're there part of the adventure's flavor, stats are there (i assume).... But kicking it up to 6 is where I'm not tracking. You can just make it an "easier" encounter (your party isn't geared for save or die in mind, deathward doesn't flow like guiness, so it's probably a bit more challenging for your crew.) Or you can mix up the force, possibly providing a more interesting multi-dimensional challenge, by adding two other monsters of equal CR. (I don't have these memorized) An Ogre Barbarian and Ogre Mage should be close and possibly even very fitting. The treasure thing. That's kinda your call too. But you should listen to their concerns. If they're light on resources, the encounters are proportionally harder thus more xp. Finally, I don't think even the Castle of Maure is fatally wounded. Certainly, not your campaign. But if they all want to tell one kind of story, and they've been giving in to you for a year and a half, because fundementally it's at odds with the storys you like, I think at the very least they've earned a good, hard, long, earnest listen, and an in kind explaination of where you're coming from.
Revelation 07-26-04, 07:28 AM	Originally posted by Dragonspirit They are mad I added more Bodeks to that fight. They are mad there were ANY Bodeks and I didn't remove them. They are mad they didn't get some of their animals companions, granted God gifts, etc etc. They are mad at the module. They are mad at some of my houserules, namely that they feel underpowered for their treasure levels. They are mad at each other. You added more Bodaks, not unreasonable, the party is larger than the standard 4. The party is mad there were any bodaks, Why? The first time I met a single one it killed a party member, you remember monsters after a first meeting, if you foul up the second encounter that's the party's problem. They are mad they didn't have all their abilities, less treasure, not clear what you denied them, but could be in their favour, if they are underpowered they will fail saves more often which is VERY important in a situation like this. Mad at the module, I haven't seen any adverse feedback on the module, apart from this, yet... Mad at each other, their fault if they can't get tactics together, their fault (in part) if they can't help instruct a new guy how to use his character to help the party Oh, and the invisible creature would be subject to death attacks, invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks, see the SRD, but can be affected. Also as Bodaks are undead you'll find that they are immune to most illusions, which I beleive includes nearly all forms of invisibility. Now won't that help your relationship?!;)
primemover003 07-26-04, 09:52 AM	If your party is Under-treasured for their level (according to the DMG) they are not going to be able to take on encounters of their level. Secondly if you don't allow resurrections you need to take out or greatly reduce save-or-die effects. It's that simple. Death does mean something in D&D... it means one of your players is sitting out of the game instead of enjoying playing. Sure dying to save the party means something, but hopefully that party is greatful enough to bring back their friend to fight with them once again. D&D includes Raise deads and resurrections for this very reason... That said they are not Save points in a video game. Everything that happened before they died happened and there is no changing it. If they were of a reasonable level they should have walked over the Bodaks. Hell, the Cleric should have been able to easily turn them, n00b or no n00b.
Articous 07-26-04, 10:20 AM	A compromise perhaps ? Dont take out death effects but reduce the number of bodeks , that sounds reasonable to me. You could replace some of the bodeks with other undead like skeletal warriors or mummies perhaps.
primemover003 07-26-04, 10:32 AM	B-O-D-A-K... :teach: http://wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG28b.jpg
Krelios 07-26-04, 10:47 AM	1. Go back in time and do it over. I rejected this, I believe that is dumb. They argued it would preserve the campaign and that they should get it because I forgot about the invisibility. But I think it's just not possible for a DM to remember everything, and if something gets forgot it's the burden of the player to remember and remind. One player argued 'shouldnt it be up to us, not you?' I laughed but he countered that he was serious.I do this for things that happened within a round or two, but never before that. If I forgot something that would have saved a player last round, we'll go back and fix it. That doesn't mean I'll let anyone change their actions, but if I forgot that the player had death ward up and they died of a death attack, I'd go back and undo it since otherwise the DM is essentially cheating. 2. They want to bring back other dead characters, and have them bring back all who died. This annoys me for reasons I gave earlier in the post. Another argued they should get to 'because it's fun' and another said it doesn't need to be realistic because it's 'just a game'. It's just a frustrating idea to me though since if there are no costs, drawbacks or permanency to deaths than we might as well throw away the dice and play a game of 'choose your own adventure'.Raise Dead and Resurrection both cost you a level--that's a big loss. Unfortunately...Death Gaze (Su): Death, range 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. Humanoids who die from this attack are transformed into bodaks 24 hours later. The save DC is Charisma-based.So unless they can get raised in 24 hours, they're screwed anyway. Be all that as it may though, the fact remains that my party was almost TPK'd. The players don't like instant kill effects, and I'm not the biggest fan either, but when I countered there were answers and items they scoffed. I understand in part, because such items are practically useless until in those extreme situations where they are golden. At the same time, at higher levels those type of things are part of the reality as conventional attacks are just not as effective in providing a challenge.They should have immediately shut the door and braced against the bodak's breaking through while the cleric cast Death Wards on all of them, or at least on himself and had the rest of the party shut their eyes while he tried to turn them repeatedly. At the very worst they could have run away (with your back turned you're not subject to the Gaze Attack) and prepared better (more Death Wards).
Astanphaeus 07-26-04, 11:38 AM	Dragonspirit, Suggestion for IG reboot: 1. Insert room into castle. 2. Place bizarre, magical, (frightfully unstable) "steampunk" apparatus in room. 3. Have the remaining PCs find said room. 4. Give PCs reason to close themselves off in the room (Look, ma! More bodaks!). 5. Apparatus is mesmerizing (pulsing globes, weird spinny bits, etc.). PCs are compelled to stare at the thing... and then touch it. 6. Once one PC touches the apparatus, the apparatus activates. Cue dramatic pause. Flash, bang, whiz. The apparatus rumbles, shakes, starts to come apart... painful death by explosion imminent-- 7. Suddenly, the surviving PCs find themselves inserted into past versions of themselves (preferably at a point in the adventure that you, the DM, vividly recall). Everyone is alive... plus the survivors know where the group went wrong. Armed with this foreknowledge, the PCs embark upon the quest (again). It's good that there are two surviving PCs. Were there only one, everyone else might just think he was crazy. You're from the future? Whaaaa? Having a "precog" view of the castle should be enough of a balancing factor for the PCs, I'd say. The cleric will know to pack death wards, and so on. The surviving PCs can still be mad at him for failing to death ward the ranger, even though he hasn't done that yet and probably won't now. ;) ~ A.
Arindor 07-26-04, 02:04 PM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Death Gaze (Su): Death, range 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. Humanoids who die from this attack are transformed into bodaks 24 hours later. The save DC is Charisma-based. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So unless they can get raised in 24 hours, they're screwed anyway. You can't be raised if killed by a death effect.
masterofmayhem 07-26-04, 03:15 PM	Originally posted by Dragonspirit 9) The monk, trying to help, opens his eyes and fails his very first save and dies. Yes, he too only died if he rolled a one. Yes, I laughed when I wanted to cry (as much as I joke, I really don't like to see my players die). But he rolled a 1. On one chance. You'd think I'd have learned by now, but no, I continue to disbelieve my die's curse.:nonono: :dice: Originally posted by Arindor You can't be raised if killed by a death effect. You can be raised, you just can't use the Raise Dead spell. Originally posted by primemover003 B-O-D-A-K... :teach: P-A-I-N ;)
denomicon 07-26-04, 03:45 PM	I would allow your party a do-over, Astanphaeus suggestion is excellent. I think the party deaths are as much attributed to the party themselves as they are to misinterpretation of the rules. I think you are using the delayed blast fireball incorrectly. The fireball is supposed to wait at target until the duration is over. from SRD This spell functions like fireball, except that it is more powerful and can detonate up to 5 rounds after the spell is cast. The burst of flame deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). The glowing bead created by delayed blast fireball can detonate immediately if you desire, or you can choose to delay the burst for as many as 5 rounds. You select the amount of delay upon completing the spell, and that time cannot change once it has been set unless someone touches the bead (see below). If you choose a delay, the glowing bead sits at its destination until it detonates. A creature can pick up and hurl the bead as a thrown weapon (range increment 10 feet). If a creature handles and moves the bead within 1 round of its detonation, there is a 25% chance that the bead detonates while being handled.
astute1 07-26-04, 04:09 PM	They are mad I added more Bodeks to that fight. They are mad there were ANY Bodeks and I didn't remove them. They are mad they didn't get some of their animals companions, granted God gifts, etc etc. They are mad at the module. They are mad at some of my houserules, namely that they feel underpowered for their treasure levels. They are mad at each other. Well, bodaks are tough monsters. Given that the party had faced them before, I would have expected them to use better tactics that befitted the situation. Most unprepared people close their eyes and leave them closed against enemies with powerful gaze attacks - your party didn't. As far as other stuff goes... Are they underpowered for their level? Do they have the right amount of treasure? Why doesn't the druid have an animal companion? That's a pretty big ability to be losing out on. If they are underpowered, they're probably justified in being somewhat upset with you, especially since you made the encounter harder. Continuing other stuff... As a general rule, never tell the players that you changed/rigged/messed with/altered an encounter in any way. In fact, don't tell them anything about your DMing at all. Keep it secret, and you avoid alot of fights. It also keeps the mystery in the game. As for the sorceress... that's tough luck, but even if she's invisible, she needs to make a save if she has her eyes open. What to do... probably a re-do is a bad idea, don't let your players get the idea that they can re-do bad fights. My suggestion would be to let them leave the dungeon, and finance a some raise dead spells from a friendly priest. Give them a break on the cost, and quietly put some extra gold in the next few encounters. They'll get over it.
astute1 07-26-04, 04:16 PM	double post. yay.
masterofmayhem 07-26-04, 06:19 PM	Originally posted by astute1 Are they underpowered for their level? No. Originally posted by astute1 Do they have the right amount of treasure? Yes. Originally posted by astute1 Why doesn't the druid have an animal companion? That's a pretty big ability to be losing out on. The Dire Bear that he liberated from an evil druid was to big to come with us. Originally posted by astute1 If they are underpowered, they're probably justified in being somewhat upset with you, especially since you made the encounter harder. We're not really justified in being angry with him. The encounter was hard, and suitably hard for our level, but it just sucked. Insta-kills have a tendency to take the fun out of things. "Oh look, the tarrasque rolled a one. He dies to the bodak." :OMG! ;) Originally posted by astute1 My suggestion would be to let them leave the dungeon, and finance a some raise dead spells from a friendly priest. Raise dead won't work on those of use who were killed by the bodak's gaze. It will only work on those that were, quite literally, blown to H:censored: :censored: :censored:
Astanphaeus 07-26-04, 06:42 PM	Originally posted by astute1 What to do... probably a re-do is a bad idea, don't let your players get the idea that they can re-do bad fights. Normally, I'd agree with you, astute... but it doesn't strike me that this sort of thing happens with this group on a weekly basis. A situation unfolded, and it went all sorts of awful for everyone. The DM messed up a little, the players messed up a little, and Lady Luck was in a bit of a foul mood. All this on top of dealing with -- of all things -- bodaks. It seems like everyone was off their game that session, and most of the players lost their characters. As a result, everyone -- not just the players, but the DM too -- is dissatisfied and frustrated. It was an exceptionally bad experience for this group. That's my impression, anyway. So, in this instance, I think a "do-over" would be a good thing, as long as it can be kept IG. My suggestion was geared to allow for a "once in a lifetime" do-over, via an IG device (thereby avoiding messy OOG retroactive continuity changes). The players should realize, as should the characters, that such a device will not be sitting at every adventure site. This is a one time thing. Plus it allows the DM to make something kinda neat out of the fiasco. ~ A.
Phrennzy 07-26-04, 08:00 PM	A few things: As noted earlier, the Invisible Sorceress gains no protection from the Bodak's Death Gaze. She apparently was creating the fireballs and holding them to be thrown later? That is a possibility in the spell, but the delayed fireballs can also be sent out to their detonation point where they will sit until they detonate. It was a good plan, but it backfired (pun intended) horribly. The cleric made a mistake by not casting Death Ward on the Ranger. But, we all make mistakes. They are mad I added more Bodeks to that fight. They should never have known that you added more. I wouldn't tell them the parts you changed. Besides, they can leave the dungeon whenever they want. They are mad there were ANY Bodeks and I didn't remove them. Wah Wah. If they hadn't used poor tactics combined with bad rolling, they wouldn't be mad. Sour grapes. They are mad they didn't get some of their animals companions, granted God gifts, etc etc. While the Dire Bear may have been too big to fit, what else were they denied. And again, too bad. If you feel that you MUST HAVE your bear with you, don't go into that dungeon. They are mad at the module. :rofl: They are mad at some of my houserules, namely that they feel underpowered for their treasure levels. Are you sure they aren't underpowered? Double check to be sure. They are mad at each other. Eh. They'll get over it. The good news is that the party beat the bodaks. And while a do-over may not sit well, how about a Deus Ex Machina? Have some wizard teleportin and offer his aid. He will teleport the party to town for Ressurrection. Ressurection spells WILL work with the Death Effects (Raise Dead will NOT). In return, the wizard asks for a specific item from inside the Maure Castle. The wizard is not big on fighting, he's more of a sage/scholar/observer, which is how he saw the whole bodak fight. He regularly scans Maure Castle. He is looking for some item: a book or lost lore, a magical divination amplifier or some such item. Then, somewhere inside a deep area of the castle, put the item. The BBEG might have it and use it, or it sits, moulding inside a chest somewhere. This keeps from issuing a "do-over" and keeps a modicum of story going. Roleplay how the wizard is terrified of even setting foot inside the castle, and that he only did it this time because the party defeated the bodaks and he thinks they have a real chance of succeeding. Play him up as a coward, and how he fears that multiple teleports will allow his enemies to trace him back to his tower. Make him almost paranoid and irrational so the PCs can't rely on him to save them again.
masterofmayhem 07-26-04, 08:18 PM	Originally posted by Phrennzy They are mad they didn't get some of their animals companions, granted God gifts, etc etc. While the Dire Bear may have been too big to fit, what else were they denied. And again, too bad. If you feel that you MUST HAVE your bear with you, don't go into that dungeon. Apparently, our cleric (the new player) had several "Godly Gifts" from Heironeous. So . . . yeah. Godly gifts . . . what a load of . . . The other complaints stemmed from two players getting their cohorts (they both have the leadership feat). They got the cohorts, but both are level 3, giving them only a modicum of usefulness. Hence, one is guarding our ship, and the other sent a message to the half orc barbarian governor of our city (my old character :D ). Originally posted by Phrennzy They are mad at some of my houserules, namely that they feel underpowered for their treasure levels. Are you sure they aren't underpowered? Double check to be sure. We are not underpowered. Were not, anyway:D . Originally posted by Phrennzy The good news is that the party beat the bodaks. And while a do-over may not sit well, how about a Deus Ex Machina? The party beat the bodaks. One of the two remainging members ran off, probably going insane, and the other attempted to finish the quest himself. We didn't bother roleplaying that out . . . Also, what does Deus Ex Machina mean? I've seen it mentioned all over these boards, but my latin (I think?) is a little rusty. ;) Originally posted by Phrennzy Have some wizard teleportin and offer his aid. He will teleport the party to town for Ressurrection. Ressurection spells WILL work with the Death Effects (Raise Dead will NOT). No teleportation or transportation spells are allowed at all on the island. For reasons unbeknownst to me.
Phrennzy 07-26-04, 08:35 PM	Plane Shift then. Or this guy has a new, variant Teleportation. Remember, he's paranoid. Deus Ex Machina: God in the Machine. It comes (IIRC) from Greek plays that had the hero get into all kinds of trouble only to be bailed out at the very end by the Gods coming down on a cloud to save him. It's bad DMing, but sometimes it's necessary. Here's an idea. Modify the Bodak. Instead of dead, they are all comatose. The bodaks have to remain with the victim and suck its soul out to force it to become another bodak, otherwise, treat the damage akin to a clay golem's damage - healing only by natural means. That makes encountering them less deadly, but still a huge inconvenence.
Dragonspirit 07-27-04, 03:38 AM	Big thanks to everyone for their words of advice. You know, sometimes, it just all hits the fan like this and I just need to hear some other perspectives on the situation. I have to admit, it was a little overwhelming how it happened! I guess I'm not the first DM to have an unexpected and unwanted TPK on their hands (nor the first to have dealt with Senor Bodak). Thanks for the heads up on the invisibility thing. It seemed like it worked like that (that's what I thought originally), but I'm often wrong on technicalities of the rules so I often assume so when the players vehemently argue :) [I'm often more of a big picture person than a detail oriented one - many a dispute has been had between my "well, it seems it should work this way" and others "but the rules state..."] Some asked what the players were denied. The new player was due to get some gifts from his Heironiouis (his class was Divine Agent I believe from the Manuals and Planes book I think). Typically, this is an extra spell, but I wanted to wait until I thought of something that added some flavor to his charater once I got more of a feel for it. The Ranger was probably the most underpowered, as one of his feats was for leadership and I had only recently appointed his cohort to him (made him level three but was going to progress him faster until he 'caught up' to make the in story connection more meaningful). He also had not yet gotten his animal companion. The reason for this was more simple, the players since they got their characters back have simply not had the time (I've kept them quite busy). I was planning on having him find said companion in the Castle. The truly painful thing is he also had used a feat to make this companion better (one to make it celestial). The sorcerous was in the same position in regards to the leadership skill. Otherwise, I believe, they were caught up. As for where I'm going now, I'm not sure but I'm leaning toward a lot of the things said here. I agree that from now on, I'm not going to tell the players any modifications I make. No good can come of it, I learned my lesson on that :) I also think that perhaps it's too early to throw the module out the door. In some way, I think we're going to do it. I think that the next go around, my players will start to think a little more strategically and try to coordinate a little better. But I also agree, that they should get one last chance for their characters too. At the same time, they need to earn it back too.
Revelation 07-27-04, 04:27 AM	Just another option, as there were so many deaths in such a magical locale (you mentioned teleportation etc not working) their sould cannot progress through to their resting place but are trapped on some shadow plane still adjacent to the tower. As the magical effects from the tower extend to this plane so their actions can influence the 'real' world. Give them a brief adventure to get back to their bodies, and thjis always gives you a nice long term plot that one of them might inadvertently bring something back with them...
masterofmayhem 07-27-04, 04:38 AM	Originally posted by Revelation Give them a brief adventure to get back to their bodies, and thjis always gives you a nice long term plot that one of them might inadvertently bring something back with them... There are no bodies. The fireball took care of that quite nicely. :smirk: Uhh . . . I mean . . . :angel:
Phrennzy 07-27-04, 03:48 PM	The bodies are still there, they're just a little cooked. :(
ShadowRanger 07-27-04, 04:17 PM	Bodaks are nasty, and the 5% save with 8 of them? ouch that becomes very likely. Still what level where your party? Instant death in a campaign with no res can be a big problem.
primemover003 07-27-04, 05:02 PM	Yeah but it's Maure castle!!! This place was a death trap in the days of Yore... Bigby got killed here. That should warn you in and of itself.
Dragonspirit 07-27-04, 05:46 PM	The bodies are still there, they're just a little cooked. Indeed :) Bodaks are nasty, and the 5% save with 8 of them? ouch that becomes very likely. Still what level where your party? Instant death in a campaign with no res can be a big problem. I believe 13 was the average, though we had a couple of 14s and a 12. And there is raises, I just limit them severly (you either need to contract a high level cleric or have one in the party) and add an additional drawback (you lose one ability point per raise in addition to normal costs).
geist324 07-28-04, 03:12 AM	hmmmm..... I am one of the players in said campaign and I just finally looked at this thread. I personally think that our DM was very unfairly ganged up on by our DnD group, and that the main reason we lost our characters was because we did not sit down as a party and set up a plan of attack for when we fight the Bodaks again. That was something that really should have been done, because my old character was killed by a patrol of Bodaks just outside the castle. Yet we did not, even though we later discovered that said Bodak patrol came from Castle Maure! We deserved to lose our characters. The only thing that made it so distressing was that the ones who lost the most (the Sorceress and the Ranger) were the ones that made the least mistakes; in comparison to everyone else that is. What really cost them, the Sorceress & the Ranger, their characters, was the mistakes of the noob cleric; they, I believe, should get back their characters that they had invested so much in and lost to another's mistakes. Now, I don't know how to work that in to the story line, but I will think of any ideas I can and let you know, if you like DragonSpirit. The main thing I want to see is the continuation of the currrent story line. Even though I lost my character, I still want to see everything resolved!
Insancipitory By Nature 07-28-04, 03:43 AM	Seriously, Dragonspirit. That's some high praise. You must be doing something right.
masterofmayhem 07-28-04, 03:52 AM	Just playing Devil's Advocate here . . . Originally posted by geist324 the main reason we lost our characters was because we did not sit down as a party and set up a plan of attack for when we fight the Bodaks again. We can't exactly sit down OoC and discuss the plan of attack in the middle of the fight with the bodaks, though . . . Originally posted by geist324 we later discovered that said Bodak patrol came from Castle Maure! Didn't we also discover that OoC? Originally posted by geist324 We deserved to lose our characters. My acursed die agrees with you. :D Originally posted by geist324 The only thing that made it so distressing was that the ones who lost the most (the Sorceress and the Ranger) were the ones that made the least mistakes; in comparison to everyone else that is. Personally, I gotta say that I made less mistakes then the ranger. He had to know that there was no way he was going to make all hundred something saves that were thrown out at him. ;) Originally posted by geist324 What really cost them, the Sorceress & the Ranger, their characters, was the mistakes of the noob cleric; C'mon, you can't blame everything on him. The real problem (in MHO, of course) was the utilization of two, entirely separate plans and the same time. Said "noob" cleric had casted the death ward spell on himself, and had repeatedly told everyone to just back off and let him handle the bodaks in the room alone. The sorceress wanted to throw three delayed blast fireballs into the room, then shut the door; an overly complex plan, especially considering that the cleric's plan was not only more simple, but (as is now as abvious as our charred bodies ;) ) less likely to backfire. Originally posted by geist324 I personally think that our DM was very unfairly ganged up on by our DnD group, The main thing I want to see is the continuation of the currrent story line. Even though I lost my character, I still want to see everything resolved! Agreed. Originally posted by Insancipitory By Nature Seriously, Dragonspirit. That's some high praise. You must be doing something right. He is. He puts a lot of work into this campaign, and I'm sure we all appreciate it, even if we are sometimes . . . less then grateful. EDIT: Originally posted by Dragonspirit I believe 13 was the average, though we had a couple of 14s and a 12. If memory serves, we had the following characters: human cleric 6/ Divine Agent Dwarven monk 13 Human sorceress 14 Human ranger 14 Elven Druid 9/ Nature's warrior4 (Not sure about that) Human shapechanger (just joined, I don't know his levels, but this was geist324's character, and he had a total of 13 levels.)
Brknlf 07-28-04, 10:55 AM	What really cost them, the Sorceress & the Ranger, their characters, was the mistakes of the noob clericC'mon, you can't blame everything on him. I agree with this, not only for the reasons mentioned, but part of playing the game is learning to utilize team work. Even if it was a noob mistake, the mature thing to do would be to explain what might have been a better option in the situation instead of just laying blaim on the noob.
Dymo 07-28-04, 12:38 PM	Just to help the Noobs of the world. :) Said "noob" cleric had casted the death ward spell on himself, and had repeatedly told everyone to just back off and let him handle the bodaks in the room alone. If no one listens because they think your a "Noob", what can be done. The above actions of a Cleric facing Bodaks does not sound very Noob like. Maybe next time listen up when "The Noob" speaks. Oh and don't forget, everyone was a "Noob" once. ;)
geist324 07-28-04, 01:39 PM	Originally posted by masterofmayhem Just playing Devil's Advocate here . . . We can't exactly sit down OoC and discuss the plan of attack in the middle of the fight with the bodaks, though . . . Didn't we also discover that OoC? Nope, we discovererd it in chraracter from the Shapeshifter when he came in. Personally, I gotta say that I made less mistakes then the ranger. He had to know that there was no way he was going to make all hundred something saves that were thrown out at him. ;) Of course he knew that. He was just roleplaying what his character would do and he was also confused as to where the cleric was. He believed the cleric was way in the back and would not be able to step in if he moved. C'mon, you can't blame everything on him. The real problem (in MHO, of course) was the utilization of two, entirely separate plans and the same time. You're right. ;) Said "noob" cleric had casted the death ward spell on himself, and had repeatedly told everyone to just back off and let him handle the bodaks in the room alone. Again, the ranger was roleplaying his character. However, I do see your point. Maybe that just means that our group needs to be more cooperative. ;) The sorceress wanted to throw three delayed blast fireballs into the room, then shut the door; an overly complex plan, especially considering that the cleric's plan was not only more simple, but (as is now as abvious as our charred bodies ;) ) less likely to backfire. Yep, I agree. :D
danielinthewolvesden 07-28-04, 02:03 PM	Originally posted by geist324 We deserved to lose our characters. The only thing that made it so distressing was that the ones who lost the most (the Sorceress and the Ranger) were the ones that made the least mistakes; in comparison to everyone else that is. What really cost them, the Sorceress & the Ranger, their characters, was the mistakes of the noob cleric; they, I believe, should get back their characters that they had invested so much in and lost to another's mistakes. I don't see that the "noob cleric" made a mistake. Sure, I can see that casting "death ward" on the Ranger would have been better.... for the Ranger. So?
geist324 07-28-04, 03:48 PM	The ranger was all ready in position, having bottlenecked the Bodaks at a door so no one else would have to make saves. The noob cleric cast deathward on himself and wanted the ranger to move out of the way. The problem with that was that the Bodaks got turns in between the ranger and the cleric, allowing them entry should the ranger move. Now, we could have done some tricky delay actions and ready actions, but that leaves room for error. It would have been safer for the cleric to just cast deathward on the ranger and buff him, then turn the bodaks with his 6 levels of cleric and cast flame strike with his 9 caster levels while the ranger handled the tanking. That would have been most simple and easy way to take care of the Bodaks once we were in combat with them (well, so far as I could think at the time).
Scion of Coldshard 07-28-04, 04:11 PM	Maybe I am not understanding.. SRD: Moving through a Square Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover. So with this the ranger readies to move out when the cleric moves in, there is no point in time when the bottleneck is not occupied, and it seemed to be what the cleric wanted done anyway ;) Sounds like a rough situation over all though. Personally I get rid of pretty much all save or dies in my campaign.. they just cause too many problems with no real benefit. Then again, I also use 1 = -10 and 20 = 30 for those sorts of rolls, so if they were really good they might have made the save anyway ;)
masterofmayhem 07-28-04, 04:21 PM	Originally posted by Scion of Coldshard So with this the ranger readies to move out when the cleric moves in, there is no point in time when the bottleneck is not occupied, and it seemed to be what the cleric wanted done anyway ;) Originally posted by geist324 Now, we could have done some tricky delay actions and ready actions, but that leaves room for error. They did not use ready or delay actions, and a bodak stepped into the space right after the ranger left it.
Scion of Coldshard 07-28-04, 04:29 PM	I know that, but it isnt 'tricky' or 'complicated'. All that you have to do is say, 'I am going to move up as he moves away'. That is all. Easy ;)
geist324 07-28-04, 06:01 PM	Originally posted by Scion of Coldshard I know that, but it isnt 'tricky' or 'complicated'. All that you have to do is say, 'I am going to move up as he moves away'. That is all. Easy ;) You know what? You're right! I can't believe we didn't think of it. I guess I've still got a lot of learning to do so far as combat using delayed actions and ready actions. :)
Commander of Chaos 07-30-04, 12:12 AM	I think that the biggest problem was that the group wasn't set to fight bodaks. Also, the Ranger wasn't aware that the Hide From Undead spell had expired. Thus he was not afraid to walk into a room without any preparation. Also, nobody was willing to sac their plan in favor of another. I think that the group deserves the death, but i still think that it sucks. Especially for the sorc. She didn't do anthing wrong. The noob cleric needed to do things differently but the Ranger could have shut his eyes, he didn't for character reasons. Another thing is that we were unprepared fo the Bodaks, not the monster but the gaze. We didn't understand that the gaze was also passive and thus weren't able to properly prepare for that. There is no propper way to resolve the conflicty of what to do with the campaign. starting over is rediculous. There is no question about it. Bringing in new characters and doing it again is possible but the Sorc is in a hissy fit about death. I've died about 4 times so i'm used to it. In order to solve all the problems there would have to be no logical storyline. Perhaps teh Dues Ex Machina. Other than that i can't think of anything. Except mabey a cleric comes in for the new party and raises the Sorc, and anybody else who wants to play the character again. Set his diamond limit at that and that explains why everybody wasn't ressurected. P.S. The Druid is Druid 10/ Natures Warrior 3
jnalani 07-30-04, 12:02 PM	Originally posted by Commander of Chaos the Sorc is in a hissy fit about death I am said Sorceress. I am not in a hissy fit about Death. I was pretty pissy right when it happened, but I haven't really talked to the other players much since it happened (work and all). I realize that I could have coordinated better than I did, and explained to the new cleric that we would have to time the movements to not allow any Bodaks out. (I have telepathy too, so this really is my fault) I could also have let the cleric go and duke it out, but my character has never been very good about following other people. She tends to make up plans and begin to execute them without waiting to see what other people are going to do. This usually works, as "I cast Maxized Scorching Rays at him" or "I cast a Maximized Fireball in the middle of the bad guys" usually doesn't require a whole lot of coordination :mage: All that being said, I did fail my very first save. My Fort is only a 7. The DC was 16 or something. I am OK with whatever happens.
Lincoln Hills 07-30-04, 05:08 PM	Increasing the number of monsters with 'instant death capability' is always a bad thing (unless everybody in the party has foregone amulets of natural armor +3 or whatever in order to wear a scarab of protection - beautiful things, those.). If anything, I'd've spread out such encounters into only 1-2 bodaks each. Sure it's underpowered for the party - but those natural 1s turn up all too often, y'know? Secondly - I've read this module exhaustively. I don't want to drop any spoilers, but if you're a player in this module, make the MOST of your pre-delving time. Your wizards and (especially) clerics should have stocked up using Brew Potion or Scribe Scroll - you will encounter doom of a hundred and two varieties here. A few scrolls of death ward are a good place to start, but go beyond that: anticipate - no, ASSUME - that disease, insanity, paralysis, petrification and (why not?) exploding head syndrome are just around the next corner. Your cleric doesn't have to set aside all his blast and boost spells for 'preventative medicine' IF you prepare these items in advance. If nothing else, the wizard can co-operate with the cleric (wizard provides the feat, cleric provides the spell, you split the XP loss): it will be time and XP well spent! (Note to the DM: If they hated the bodaks, imagine how they'll react to the huge <SPOILER DELETED> armed with the firk ding blastin' <SPOILER DELETED> and the feathery <SPOILER DELETED>! - To say nothing of the shoosuvas... brrr!)
Levi787 08-03-04, 04:33 PM	well, i am the (or was the) said "ranger" in the campaign (and a pretty stuckup one at that: character issues related to history) Anyways, it looks like we are going to be headed back to Castle Maure again with new characters most of which look up to the ones who have already gone (the group, not Mordenkainan and Bigby). I personally think its kinda cool since a few of the characters that Dragonspirit is allowing us to use are ones that have already been in the story as NPC's. The only thing about this is that i simply don't like the Bodaks and their stupid Gaze attack. But of course, there are those things that we cannot enjoy (even though this is a game). I guess that it reflects our character's feelings and hardships (in a geeky d&d way) so yea, and what MoC said about our sorceress was completely out of line. she had both of her sons having 'hissy fits', not so much her. i think that she handled the death pretty well. (does he not remember when i lost my 'first' character?) anyways, just dropping by and im sure that all the information that you all have given us AND the advice is definitly going to help us quite a bit (maybe we'll meta a little, jk).