Body Parts [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Body Parts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KitsuneSoup
03-21-04, 08:21 PM I've got a few players who have been collecting body parts from the monsters they kill. They aren't hunting them for the parts, but there are two general categories that they believe are automatically useful:

1.) Immediately useful, like poisons or venoms, and
2.) Should be useful for spells and alchemy, like nightmare hair and beholder chunks.

They aren't getting out of hand with it, just randomly collecting things. They're average level 14, and the wizard's been collecting non-perishables (like gargolye pieces) since level 2. It's not like they're deliberately hunting things for chunks, just picking up odds and ends.

Now, they needed some money. There's a college of magic, and they figured that some of these parts should be worth something. So they pick up this mass of viscera and head to the wizards to sell some.

How do you price this kind of thing? I was just randomly throwing out amounts that I thought were really low (like the nightmare's tail, which I only gave them 100gp for), and they'll understand if I make up some kind of chart later. They're not going to get into the hunting habit, since they do have better things to do.

But has anyone done any work on this? I know that HackMaster has useful charts for every bit of every monster. But what about good ole' d20?

KitsuneSoup
CeresOfTerra
03-21-04, 08:28 PM The general rule of the cost would be how hard it is for the wizards to get it. A set of beholder eyes would be quiet a vicious challenge for any arcane spellcaster, possibly pushing 1500 gp. Same would be the case for a dragon's fang, if undamaged. Whereas a nightmare poses little relative danger to a wizard, so, unless it were a heavily advanced nightmare, I don't think you could get more than 50 gp.

I don't think I've actually answered any questions, but I hope I've pointed you in the right direction.

EDIT: There are tables in the Book Of Exalted Deeds and Book Of Vile Darkness for some components, but not many.
DarkThoughts24
03-21-04, 10:27 PM nice to see someone else using ideas from hackmaster and old editions of d&d. i use mostrous humors and parts as enhanced spell components in my game all the time but pcs rarely think about it
OmiKapSi
03-22-04, 02:55 AM General system off the top of my head:

{[(CR of creature) divided by (number of items per creature)] times (knowledge arcana check result) in gold pieces.

If a creature has numerous items (such as teeth or vertebrae) a full set is required.

The knowledge check is to reflect the harvesting process, and the fact that a knowledgable person would be much more capable to harvest useable bits than someone randomly collecting bits of creatures.

Now, harevesting creature bits for arcane use has a long tradition, and is very difficult to work out in dnd terms.

What I'd do would be devise a formula based on the creatures name that determines which bits of the creature are going to be useful.

This would mean that each creature would be unique, and one wouldn't need to generate extensive tables on what creatures have what bits of useful anatomy.
For realism sake, perhaps make it so creatures that have spell like abilities have bits that are useful in relation with those abilities.

For example;
If the creatures name has an A in it, it's teeth are useful.
If the creatures name has an odd number of letters in it, it's eyes are useful.
If the creatures name has any letters in common with its type, it's heart is useful.
If the creatures name has three or more vowels in it, it's brain is useful.

Using the above system:
The teeth, eyes and heart of a gargoyle are useful. A full set of teeth, a pair of eyes, and a heart each have a base value of a gold piece. This is multiplied by the knowledge arcana check. A low check (5) will result in each piece being worth 5 gold, a full set being worth 20 gold. A decent check (15) will result in each piece being worth 15 gold, a full set being worth 60 gold. A really good check (25) will result in each piece being worth 25 gold, and a full set being worth 100 gold.

The eyes and heart of a behir are useful. Two behir eyes and one heart are worth a total of 8 gold. This is then multiplied by the knowledge arcana check of the harvester.
Thus an 8th level wizard with 18 intelligence and full Knowledge ranks (+15), if harvesting these bits would be able to extract them in a way to give them a base value of 67 gold each on the open market on an average roll.

There ya go, now it's just off the top of my head, so obviously needs revision, but perhaps it'll spark something better.
KitsuneSoup
03-22-04, 12:26 PM That's not bad, I suppose. It could work.

The only thing is, shouldn't the more "obvious" creatures be worth less as well? While it's true that a balor is hard to kill, it's obvious that it has magical powers in its chunks. However, fewer wizards would know of the benefits of owlbears, since they're so "lowly".

Just thinking some more.

KitsuneSoup
Quithion
03-22-04, 01:03 PM Unearth Arcana has a section for material components, prices and things of the like for spells,and metamagic and such. I would start there.
KitsuneSoup
03-22-04, 01:39 PM We checked into that. But there, there's too many problems:

Dragon eggshells are listed with telepathic bond as 1,050gp. But how much eggshell? Is it the entire shell, regardless of the size?

Or arcane eye lists dire bat fur at 640gp. Since even a dire bat is only a Large creature, should that price be for the entire fur? Or just a tiny piece?

KitsuneSoup
MinusInnocence
03-22-04, 01:49 PM It's true that there may be fewer Owlbear specimens on the market, and so the price for them could be jacked up (until the PCs start flooding it with pieces of Owlbears they've hunted). However, Balors are simply incredibly powerful and dangerous; some of the most powerful dangerous creatures, in fact, in the Multiverse. What you're really paying for when you buy a brain from a major demon is the risks the PCs had to go through to give you that brain.

As an aside, I think OmiKapSi's formula should probably be based on Heal instead of a Knowledge skill. My reasoning is that the various Knowledge skills in v3.5 all grant various abilities to figure out traits of monsters of certain types; Nature is used for Animals and Fey, for example. However, keeping track of whichever Knowledge skill is necessary would be time-consuming and would require the PCs to track down someone who could harvest the organs, was willing to do so, and blah blah blah.

So, just using Heal (which could easily be transmuted into a make-shift surgery or dissection skill) is the better option. In my game, I allow people to use Heal checks to see if their friends are unconscious, dying, stabilized, dead or whatever just by glancing at them for a Standard action. Also, if they were to find a corpse they could make a Heal check to see what type of creature it was, perhaps, or what killed it.

There's another thread that was posted yesterday morning, I believe, about body harvester PCs. The debate consisted of whether the monster's treasure should take into account the value of its corpse, and how complicated you could make the formula based on how damaged the specimen was in combat.

Personally I don't see any reason why a group couldn't devote a whole campaign to doing research for a group like the Monster Hunter's Association from the old Dragon issues. It seems like a fun and interesting hobby in a fantasy setting, but a few things to keep in mind:

1) What are the benefits of harvesting organs and limbs from the creatures? Can they be used as Power Components to fulfill the XP Requirement of spells and magic items, and if so, what portion of the GP value of the monster piece can be converted into XP for that reason?

2) How would you factor in the inevitable damage to the specimen after the PCs butcher it? One might say the DC of the check to harvest organs should already take this into account, and it may, but is reducing the inherent value of the specimen in order, as well?

3) Dragons are an ideal subject for taking organs from, if you somehow manage to kill one (I, personally, have only seen it happen twice, and one of them wasn't even a dragon, it was simply an animated skeleton; the other was played like a winged dinosaur with bad breath)... but they already have enormous hoards of treasure. Such things are well-rooted in "historical" dragons from our own world, and every roleplaying supplement many of us have ever seen. The Draconomicon, which is practically the Bible for DMs interested in running encounters with the wyrms, also supports this theory.

So, what to do? Obviously you can't give a boatload of extra GP worth of treasure just because they managed to kill the thing, it stands to reason that if they were able to claim the original treasure hoard they probably killed the dragon anyway. So, should the dragon's BH (body harvest) value be factored into the overall value of his possessions?

This doesn't seem like an unreasonable solution, but it also means you have to have a very quick and easy system ready to be implemented for any encounter with a creature. It would take forever to calculate the treasure of the hoard, run the encounter, then calculate the total BH value of the dragon, then reduce it based on the severity of tissue damage, then subtract THAT from the total value of the hoard... etc.

Of course, this would only be appropriate for a campaign where harvesting bodyparts from slain mystical creatures was actually the entire point of the game. You wouldn't want to penalize players for not having any interest in tearing apart the carcass of everything they meet, then trudging back to town to sell it; and if you follow my guidelines above, that's exactly what you'd be doing, since you're effectively reducing the amount of treasure they can garner from any encounter.
OmiKapSi
03-23-04, 02:17 AM Minor note: I thought that knowledge arcana was appropriate because it would cover usage of critter bits for spell components, and the method of harvesting said component to maximize it's usefulness.

It is true that the heal skill is appropriate if someone is going to be removing bits of a corpse and keeping said bits intact, as well as general anatomy knowledge.
bitnine
03-23-04, 03:34 AM Depending on how you handle things, you might have many of the "raw" things need to be heavily processed and treated in complex ways before being viable to use as power components; that way, collection of the "raw" materials might be somewhat easy in some cases, but still have the cost of, say, half of the listed cost to properly prepare for use.

It also may mean that many times the listed item is an extract or concentrated essence, meaning that a normal specimen (though potentially quite large) does not singularly provide an insane amount of dosage.
Quithion
03-23-04, 05:23 AM Well for instance you list a dire bat fur as 640 gp. I would then offer ther pcs 640 gp x the percentage of the fur they got. So 100 % = 640 gp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KitsuneSoup 03-21-04, 08:21 PM	I've got a few players who have been collecting body parts from the monsters they kill. They aren't hunting them for the parts, but there are two general categories that they believe are automatically useful: 1.) Immediately useful, like poisons or venoms, and 2.) Should be useful for spells and alchemy, like nightmare hair and beholder chunks. They aren't getting out of hand with it, just randomly collecting things. They're average level 14, and the wizard's been collecting non-perishables (like gargolye pieces) since level 2. It's not like they're deliberately hunting things for chunks, just picking up odds and ends. Now, they needed some money. There's a college of magic, and they figured that some of these parts should be worth something. So they pick up this mass of viscera and head to the wizards to sell some. How do you price this kind of thing? I was just randomly throwing out amounts that I thought were really low (like the nightmare's tail, which I only gave them 100gp for), and they'll understand if I make up some kind of chart later. They're not going to get into the hunting habit, since they do have better things to do. But has anyone done any work on this? I know that HackMaster has useful charts for every bit of every monster. But what about good ole' d20? KitsuneSoup
CeresOfTerra 03-21-04, 08:28 PM	The general rule of the cost would be how hard it is for the wizards to get it. A set of beholder eyes would be quiet a vicious challenge for any arcane spellcaster, possibly pushing 1500 gp. Same would be the case for a dragon's fang, if undamaged. Whereas a nightmare poses little relative danger to a wizard, so, unless it were a heavily advanced nightmare, I don't think you could get more than 50 gp. I don't think I've actually answered any questions, but I hope I've pointed you in the right direction. EDIT: There are tables in the Book Of Exalted Deeds and Book Of Vile Darkness for some components, but not many.
DarkThoughts24 03-21-04, 10:27 PM	nice to see someone else using ideas from hackmaster and old editions of d&d. i use mostrous humors and parts as enhanced spell components in my game all the time but pcs rarely think about it
OmiKapSi 03-22-04, 02:55 AM	General system off the top of my head: {[(CR of creature) divided by (number of items per creature)] times (knowledge arcana check result) in gold pieces. If a creature has numerous items (such as teeth or vertebrae) a full set is required. The knowledge check is to reflect the harvesting process, and the fact that a knowledgable person would be much more capable to harvest useable bits than someone randomly collecting bits of creatures. Now, harevesting creature bits for arcane use has a long tradition, and is very difficult to work out in dnd terms. What I'd do would be devise a formula based on the creatures name that determines which bits of the creature are going to be useful. This would mean that each creature would be unique, and one wouldn't need to generate extensive tables on what creatures have what bits of useful anatomy. For realism sake, perhaps make it so creatures that have spell like abilities have bits that are useful in relation with those abilities. For example; If the creatures name has an A in it, it's teeth are useful. If the creatures name has an odd number of letters in it, it's eyes are useful. If the creatures name has any letters in common with its type, it's heart is useful. If the creatures name has three or more vowels in it, it's brain is useful. Using the above system: The teeth, eyes and heart of a gargoyle are useful. A full set of teeth, a pair of eyes, and a heart each have a base value of a gold piece. This is multiplied by the knowledge arcana check. A low check (5) will result in each piece being worth 5 gold, a full set being worth 20 gold. A decent check (15) will result in each piece being worth 15 gold, a full set being worth 60 gold. A really good check (25) will result in each piece being worth 25 gold, and a full set being worth 100 gold. The eyes and heart of a behir are useful. Two behir eyes and one heart are worth a total of 8 gold. This is then multiplied by the knowledge arcana check of the harvester. Thus an 8th level wizard with 18 intelligence and full Knowledge ranks (+15), if harvesting these bits would be able to extract them in a way to give them a base value of 67 gold each on the open market on an average roll. There ya go, now it's just off the top of my head, so obviously needs revision, but perhaps it'll spark something better.
KitsuneSoup 03-22-04, 12:26 PM	That's not bad, I suppose. It could work. The only thing is, shouldn't the more "obvious" creatures be worth less as well? While it's true that a balor is hard to kill, it's obvious that it has magical powers in its chunks. However, fewer wizards would know of the benefits of owlbears, since they're so "lowly". Just thinking some more. KitsuneSoup
Quithion 03-22-04, 01:03 PM	Unearth Arcana has a section for material components, prices and things of the like for spells,and metamagic and such. I would start there.
KitsuneSoup 03-22-04, 01:39 PM	We checked into that. But there, there's too many problems: Dragon eggshells are listed with telepathic bond as 1,050gp. But how much eggshell? Is it the entire shell, regardless of the size? Or arcane eye lists dire bat fur at 640gp. Since even a dire bat is only a Large creature, should that price be for the entire fur? Or just a tiny piece? KitsuneSoup
MinusInnocence 03-22-04, 01:49 PM	It's true that there may be fewer Owlbear specimens on the market, and so the price for them could be jacked up (until the PCs start flooding it with pieces of Owlbears they've hunted). However, Balors are simply incredibly powerful and dangerous; some of the most powerful dangerous creatures, in fact, in the Multiverse. What you're really paying for when you buy a brain from a major demon is the risks the PCs had to go through to give you that brain. As an aside, I think OmiKapSi's formula should probably be based on Heal instead of a Knowledge skill. My reasoning is that the various Knowledge skills in v3.5 all grant various abilities to figure out traits of monsters of certain types; Nature is used for Animals and Fey, for example. However, keeping track of whichever Knowledge skill is necessary would be time-consuming and would require the PCs to track down someone who could harvest the organs, was willing to do so, and blah blah blah. So, just using Heal (which could easily be transmuted into a make-shift surgery or dissection skill) is the better option. In my game, I allow people to use Heal checks to see if their friends are unconscious, dying, stabilized, dead or whatever just by glancing at them for a Standard action. Also, if they were to find a corpse they could make a Heal check to see what type of creature it was, perhaps, or what killed it. There's another thread that was posted yesterday morning, I believe, about body harvester PCs. The debate consisted of whether the monster's treasure should take into account the value of its corpse, and how complicated you could make the formula based on how damaged the specimen was in combat. Personally I don't see any reason why a group couldn't devote a whole campaign to doing research for a group like the Monster Hunter's Association from the old Dragon issues. It seems like a fun and interesting hobby in a fantasy setting, but a few things to keep in mind: 1) What are the benefits of harvesting organs and limbs from the creatures? Can they be used as Power Components to fulfill the XP Requirement of spells and magic items, and if so, what portion of the GP value of the monster piece can be converted into XP for that reason? 2) How would you factor in the inevitable damage to the specimen after the PCs butcher it? One might say the DC of the check to harvest organs should already take this into account, and it may, but is reducing the inherent value of the specimen in order, as well? 3) Dragons are an ideal subject for taking organs from, if you somehow manage to kill one (I, personally, have only seen it happen twice, and one of them wasn't even a dragon, it was simply an animated skeleton; the other was played like a winged dinosaur with bad breath)... but they already have enormous hoards of treasure. Such things are well-rooted in "historical" dragons from our own world, and every roleplaying supplement many of us have ever seen. The Draconomicon, which is practically the Bible for DMs interested in running encounters with the wyrms, also supports this theory. So, what to do? Obviously you can't give a boatload of extra GP worth of treasure just because they managed to kill the thing, it stands to reason that if they were able to claim the original treasure hoard they probably killed the dragon anyway. So, should the dragon's BH (body harvest) value be factored into the overall value of his possessions? This doesn't seem like an unreasonable solution, but it also means you have to have a very quick and easy system ready to be implemented for any encounter with a creature. It would take forever to calculate the treasure of the hoard, run the encounter, then calculate the total BH value of the dragon, then reduce it based on the severity of tissue damage, then subtract THAT from the total value of the hoard... etc. Of course, this would only be appropriate for a campaign where harvesting bodyparts from slain mystical creatures was actually the entire point of the game. You wouldn't want to penalize players for not having any interest in tearing apart the carcass of everything they meet, then trudging back to town to sell it; and if you follow my guidelines above, that's exactly what you'd be doing, since you're effectively reducing the amount of treasure they can garner from any encounter.
OmiKapSi 03-23-04, 02:17 AM	Minor note: I thought that knowledge arcana was appropriate because it would cover usage of critter bits for spell components, and the method of harvesting said component to maximize it's usefulness. It is true that the heal skill is appropriate if someone is going to be removing bits of a corpse and keeping said bits intact, as well as general anatomy knowledge.
bitnine 03-23-04, 03:34 AM	Depending on how you handle things, you might have many of the "raw" things need to be heavily processed and treated in complex ways before being viable to use as power components; that way, collection of the "raw" materials might be somewhat easy in some cases, but still have the cost of, say, half of the listed cost to properly prepare for use. It also may mean that many times the listed item is an extract or concentrated essence, meaning that a normal specimen (though potentially quite large) does not singularly provide an insane amount of dosage.
Quithion 03-23-04, 05:23 AM	Well for instance you list a dire bat fur as 640 gp. I would then offer ther pcs 640 gp x the percentage of the fur they got. So 100 % = 640 gp.