Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fend575 12-03-07, 12:45 AM	How does a creature with the spell casting ability of a 14th level sorcerer, the undead template, an SR of 23, poison and the ability to detect thoughts clock out to only be CR 11? (Fiend folio) The lack of a pre-prepared spell list in the folio, meant i crafted my own for it. Now i admit the combination of Spells might have done more killing than the naga itself.. but i used my tactics as followed (befiting a high intelegence creature) - once thoughts are detected, Dimension door to another chamber. - spend 11 rounds buffing (Greater mage armor, ice sheild, stone bones, balor nimbus, improved invisibility, babau slime, true seeing, Mirror image, Stoneskin, death throws, fly - in order of duration longest to shortest) - Dimension door back into lair and destroy everything. Offencive spells (that mattered) were - Insanity, Extract water elemental, Cloud kill and Flesh to Ice. The spells were themed to the dungeon (The Demiplane of Tears (Cold/undeath/sorrow/water dominant)) anyone else think this creature is just abit much for a CR 11 encounter? It Butchered my Level 11 party of 5 with ease. (nightmare spinner, mind bender, monk, bard/pally of freedom, shadowbane stalker) tho the last survivor - who was insane - destroyed it and wandered off into the mountains. still a party of any lesser level wouldnt have a hope imo... anyone else got a bone naga related tale to tell? or opinion to give?
Salla 12-03-07, 01:01 AM	Are you sure you meant Bone Naga? I'm not seeing one in my Fiend Folio (nor Naga, Bone) either. Anyway ... Mindbender and Nightmare Spinner are probably hosed by the immunity to mind-affecting stuff. Monks just suck. Bard/Pally? Well, he had half a chance of contributing ... the Paladin half, same with the Stalker. Basically, this is just a party that dies to undead or constructs. Can't mind-affect them, can't sneak attack them ...
kuonji 12-03-07, 01:17 AM	Well, you loaded it up on really great spells that it may or may not have had reason to know/access to, gave it unlimited time to buff, and let it jump in and attack the party, with a surprise round I'm assuming. And, as Salla said, you gave a group with crappy undead fighting ability a powerhouse undead creature to fight. Now you understand why higher level spellcasters are brutal, especially when given time to buff and launch a surprise attack. Go read some of the scry/teleport tactics for other examples. Change the party composition a little bit and see if it makes any difference, a cleric with spell pen/greater spell pen at level 11 would need an 8 to beat the SR. Have that cleric hit it with a heal spell and a fighter or barbarian wind up with a power attack or a pally hit it with a couple smites as a follow up and your CR11 machine is probably going to be on the ropes or in the ground.
Hippokrene 12-03-07, 01:31 AM	Salla: "Are you sure you meant Bone Naga? I'm not seeing one in my Fiend Folio (nor Naga, Bone) either." Bone Naga - Monster Manuel II, pg 35. Kuoji: "Well, you loaded it up on really great spells that it may or may not have had reason to know/access to, gave it unlimited time to buff, and let it jump in and attack the party, with a surprise round I'm assuming." It's an intelligent, undead sorcerer with the ability to read minds, so I'd say that Fend played the Naga 'correctly.'
Salla 12-03-07, 01:32 AM	Also ... a 11th level Wizard, IIRC, gains access to Disintegrate at that level. That's pretty much 'game over' for most Undead with their crappy Fort saves.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 01:43 AM	How does a [Bone Naga] clock out to only be CR 11? ...a party of any lesser level wouldnt have a hope imo... anyone else got a bone naga related tale to tell? or opinion to give? First, congratulations on actually taking the time to compare your group to the monster you are thinking of using. That is awesome start of being a DM. Even a cursory examination of the monsters you may or may not be using is a good idea. Now, you just need to get to the point where you figure if they don't run from the encounter, they will all die - and then run it anyways. :dragon: *****
Hippokrene 12-03-07, 01:46 AM	Also ... a 11th level Wizard, IIRC, gains access to Disintegrate at that level. That's pretty much 'game over' for most Undead with their crappy Fort saves. I suppose the question would be "Did the party know what they were facing ahead of time?" That is awesome start of being a DM. Even a cursory examination of the monsters you may or may not be using is a good idea. Now, you just need to get to the point where you figure if they don't run from the encounter, they will all die - and then run it anyways. Erm, that's exactly what he did...
Salla 12-03-07, 01:53 AM	I suppose the question would be "Did the party know what they were facing ahead of time?" Well, Disintegrate is GENERALLY useful, it's just especially useful against undead. It's one of my must-haves when I wizard. :) Then again, I think every one of those arcanists (Mindbender and Nightmare Spinner) lost a caster level, so they're still on 5th level spells. Erm, that's exactly what he did... Pendy is claiming it's a good thing.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 01:57 AM	Pendy is claiming it's a good thing. What is good for the DM should always be praised. :dragon: *****
Cuindless 12-03-07, 01:58 AM	Erm, that's exactly what he did... Yep, and to side with Pender on this one: It was completely flippin' awesome! First adventure. New group. They just finished off the main crux of the dungeon when, near the end, they come face to face with a fricken' beholder. It wants to parley... all it wants is a single item that they found in the dungeon and it will be on it's merry way. What should the PCs do? Facing a large, abberant tentacle monster with multiple eyes?!? It gives up the item and thanks the gods it wasn't hungry! It's D&D. You rolls yer dice, you takes yer chances.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 02:00 AM	...tho the last survivor - who was insane - destroyed it and wandered off into the mountains. And see? it wasn't even a true TPK. Insane dude wandering through the forest sounds like a perfect spot to continue the game. Everyone wins. I guess, I am just wondering where the problem here really is. :dragon: *****
Hippokrene 12-03-07, 02:17 AM	Pendy is claiming it's a good thing. Yes, I know he was saying it's a good thing, but he was also using the future tense, which suggest... Oh forget it. I guess, I am just wondering where the problem here really is. The problem is that a CR 11 creature killed a group of five level 11 adventurers. Assuming that the party was 'fresh' and they made no substantial tactical errors, that suggests the Bone Naga has a higher CR than 11.
Cuindless 12-03-07, 02:39 AM	The problem is that a CR 11 creature killed a group of five level 11 adventurers. Assuming that the party was 'fresh' and they made no substantial tactical errors, that suggests the Bone Naga has a higher CR than 11. Not necessarily. In a perfect world, yes, an EL=CR encounter will expend 20% of the party's resources, but D&D isn't a perfect world. There's poorly optimized characters, inefficient tactics, battle fatigue, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. That's without mentioning encounter mismatches like this one. Take a look at the Iron Golem. With DR 15/adamantine, magic immunity and construct traits, can you honestly say that this is a CR 13 encounter? Well, yes and no... against a well optimized group with good tactics and the appropriate weaponry, they should be able to mop the floor with this hunk of metal. On the other hand, with no buffing casters (or depleted casters) and no adamantine weapons, you have a series of clangs and fizzles until a group of 17th level characters lay on the floor in a fine red mist...
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 02:41 AM	The problem is that a CR 11 creature killed a group of five level 11 adventurers. Assuming that the party was 'fresh' and they made no substantial tactical errors, that suggests the Bone Naga has a higher CR than 11. This should not have been a problem since the DM checked all that prior to running a bone naga vs his group. After all, he knew his group (or any group, mind you) could be different than the one that was run by WotC to test, evaluate and give the monster its CR, right? Really, all DMs know that CRs were assigned based on many factors which may or may not include your group of players and PCs, right? It seems to me that a bone naga's CR of 11 is fine. That is a generalized place to start. The next place is a quick read-through of its stats and a comparison of all that to what the DM knows of his party. These are all basic steps here, right? I mean those are all great places to start actually being a DM, right? Knowing your group and actually knowing what you are tossing in front of them, right? I believe the OP was just taking the chance of showing a good example of how to keep a game running when 4-out-of-5 of your PCs die and the 5th wanders into a forest in search of his marbles. :dragon: *****
Salla 12-03-07, 02:44 AM	I mean those are all great places to start actually being a DM, right? Knowing your group and actually knowing what you are tossing in front of them, right? You'd think, yes. Unfortunately, some DMs just don't do that. Oddly, most of the ones who don't do that I've dealt with instead deal up encounters that result in his wrist getting tired (25 3rd level Orcs with crappy gear against 3 5th level characters granted an exceptionally powerful stat-acquisition roll? He just flipped his d20s, couldn't touch us ...).
DMDaddy 12-03-07, 02:49 AM	The problem is probably the MMII. I posted a similar horror story at one time, except I was using the CR9 Immoth from the MMII. Almost a complete TPK. A few DMs chimed in stated their disgruntles at the MMIIs improperly assigned CRs. They even stated several of their remakes of MMII monsters.
Hippokrene 12-03-07, 02:57 AM	Not necessarily. In a perfect world, yes, an EL=CR encounter will expend 20% of the party's resources, but D&D isn't a perfect world. There's poorly optimized characters, inefficient tactics, battle fatigue, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. That's without mentioning encounter mismatches like this one. No, in a perfect world, the DMs are brilliant creatures that carefully plan encounters beforehand and have a good grasp of how player abilities and monster powers interact. CR is unnecessary in a perfect world. In the real world, a DM might have an hour before game time, flip through a few books for appropriate encounter(s), and accidentally TPK their party because the CR 11 wasn't *quite* appropriate for the party. Now, that is a problem, as the point of CR is to avoid situations just like that. It's a mechanism meant to guide the novice DM and aid the experienced one. Admittedly, the accidental TPK is one of those learning experience that turns the former into the latter, but it still sort of sucks. An unavoidable problem - you seem to be suggesting this - is still a problem.
lifeblender 12-03-07, 03:18 AM	No, this is not a CR 11 encounter. This is a CR 11 creature with a strong combat advantage given to it. The way you played it, by giving a creature which has greatly honed its buffing ability plenty of time to set up all of its short-term buffs with no way for the players to detect it, it's at least a CR 13, probably a CR 14. Most casters are not so focused on self-buffing, and the time it had synergized well with that. To be a CR 11 encounter, I think that the players needed a chance to discover their plight and prepare. Maybe not the same 11 rounds and perfect knowledge, but some way to guess that their opponent would be so powerful and so well-protected. For instance, the players could have made Gather Information or Knowledge (local) checks before they got to the dungeon to hear stories, or Knowledge (dungeoneering) once inside to notice the order (or something) of the place, indicating a more intelligent dweller than average. Of course, if your players tanked all their information skills, then yeah, wipe the floor with them for wandering in unaware, but at CR 14.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 03:41 AM	Despite the title, the encounter wasn't a TPK. :dragon: *****
Fend575 12-03-07, 05:58 AM	No, this is not a CR 11 encounter. This is a CR 11 creature with a strong combat advantage given to it. The way you played it, by giving a creature which has greatly honed its buffing ability plenty of time to set up all of its short-term buffs with no way for the players to detect it, it's at least a CR 13, probably a CR 14. Most casters are not so focused on self-buffing, and the time it had synergized well with that. To be a CR 11 encounter, I think that the players needed a chance to discover their plight and prepare. Maybe not the same 11 rounds and perfect knowledge, but some way to guess that their opponent would be so powerful and so well-protected. For instance, the players could have made Gather Information or Knowledge (local) checks before they got to the dungeon to hear stories, or Knowledge (dungeoneering) once inside to notice the order (or something) of the place, indicating a more intelligent dweller than average. Of course, if your players tanked all their information skills, then yeah, wipe the floor with them for wandering in unaware, but at CR 14. Hrmm. well, ok. They were searching this frozen, planar dungeon and needed to rest, so they said - next major thing we run into - we' teleport back to the exit and return home to prepare. So they did, stumbled across the naga room, It was empty with heaps of ice sculputres, water elementals, things like this. they had plenty of clues. Then after 11 rounds (they were searching and talking) it ported in and began doing its thing. So Half the group Ports with a scroll sucessfuly - the other half struggles as the bard continues to botch his use magic device check on the scroll continuously *miraculously rolling well on the mishap chances, and crap on the casting ones* In this time the paladin (who was absent on the session I TPKed - ill explain why its a tpk in a minute) drew all the nagas attention and miraculously shrugged off even the worst spells before they finally got out of there. What followed was a Week of downtime in town, The group rested, Retrained a few feats, Bought new gear, did some crafting and learned new spells. Then they went back - Cast hide from undead and dimension doored into the naga room so they could get the drop on it. Point being - They were exceedingly well prepared. But theyre biggest blunder was that they chose to begin casting Verbal component buffs in the naga chamber (being intelegent) It got to make a Save against the hide from undead spell - and suceeded - imediatly porting out and begining its buffs elsewhere (As any smart caster would!) When it came back, it cast insanity on the cleric (who's sword was all tooled up with Holy and Undead bane), Cloud killed the room, Turned the wizard to Ice, then the sorcerer, "Then" the Insane cleric. The Monk passed out and died in the cloudkill (he chose to go back into it - he worships ilmater so, he thought it was the right thing to do) finally the Bard (last guy left) was turned insane - but at this stage he was using the clerics super buffed sword - and dispatched the naga as part of an "you attack the nearest creature" confusion check. which then exploded from its deathrows spell all but shattering all the ice sculptures. After this i wasnt sure how to handle his roleplay being insane so we just ruled in his next moment of clarity he pulls out a teleport scroll and makes for the exit. after he stumbled out he waited for his next moment of clarity to use his final scroll of teleport to get him to a cathedral. But he Botched the use magic device check AND the miscast check (reducing the scroll to cinders). Being lost in the middle of the wilderness and with the party pretty much destroyed (Bar the paladin who had to quit the campaign anyway) we just called it a game because being a Bard/Paladin of freedom, Losing his mind was pretty much the worst possible fate for him. so he wondered off into the mountains. Point of this being, it was a TPK because it ended the campaign pretty much. but yes, they were extreemly prepared for the encounter.
rimble 12-03-07, 10:24 AM	There's an excerpt from the Serpent Kingdoms on the Wizards site that has this Dark Naga Sorcerer Bone Naga stat block: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=4 How does the stat block you used compare to that? The above stat block shows CR15, and I believe yours was stronger since you were casting 7th level spells (and threw the full might of the Spell Compendium at them), so a CR16+ undead spellcaster, if you believe that page, with 11 rounds to prepare...
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 01:05 PM	Point of this being, it was a TPK because it ended the campaign pretty much. This is too bad as it would be fun to start the next group of PCs in some inn where, out of the blizzard, in walks a half-frozen, mad man... I think too many DMs see a TPK (even if it is just a technical TPK) as being the end of the momentum in a game. A lot of the time it is a perfect way to keep the game going. :dragon: *****
Phrennzy 12-03-07, 01:22 PM	On the plus side, it's not like the thing got a surprise round because it Dimension Door'd into the room, which doesn't let it do anything until it's next turn. Their mistake was in buffing in the creature's room. You buff well before you might encounter the creature. A Bone Naga as it is written is a CR 11 just fine. Assuming it doesn't pop away and buff itself, using spells that aren't core. In this case, it exceeds it's CR. The players should have ran away again, once their plan was fouled up.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 02:05 PM	The players should have ran away again, once their plan was fouled up. Or, at least their characters should have run. ;) It is sometimes difficult to convey to players when their PCs should not hang around. :dragon: *****
Sinis 12-03-07, 02:59 PM	With a Fort save of +5, it's sad that he's trivial when the party has disintegrate, but managed to roll the party that didn't have it's bases covered. Heck, a 9th level wizard could have teleported the party out. At "CR 11", or "11th level", the game can go really randomly, and this is just one of those moments where a Bone Naga that's smart enough saw something coming, buffed itself to merciless killing mode and won against an ill prepared and less than perfectly balanced party. I don't know much about the classes listed in your group's composition, but it looks like no one thought to ready counterspells, or use dispel magic, or really anything.
NordicBirch 12-03-07, 04:24 PM	Point being - They were exceedingly well prepared. But theyre biggest blunder was that they chose to begin casting Verbal component buffs in the naga chamber (being intelegent) It got to make a Save against the hide from undead spell - and suceeded - imediatly porting out and begining its buffs elsewhere (As any smart caster would!) What's the level of anticipate teleport? They knew the thing likes to teleport. Or were they planning on opening with DimAnchor after the buffs were complete?
wonlee76 12-03-07, 04:44 PM	Generally, I dislike the MM II because I think out of all the MMs, it has the most flaws when it comes down to CR and the monster's abilities. In particular, a CR 11 monster with the spellcasting ability of a level 14 sorceror (and lets not bring up the fact that there are relatively low CR monsters capable of Mage's Disjunction)? Come on... a level 14 human sorceror would have a CR of 14 (not that I think a level 14 human sorceror is 'really" a CR 14 but that's just a flaw in the CR system in my opinion), how the heck did this Naga get a discount? This should've raised a red flag as to whether this should be a CR 11 monster where the monster's innate spellcasting ability surpasses its CR by a decent margin. In this particular case, the Naga is under what its CR should be. Even if you did give it a slight discount because its undead and has crappy HP, the spellcasting more then makes up for that penalty (False Life, spells that could boost AC or spells that could cause "misses" like Blur or Displacement). My general advice is, just because the books say its CR X, doesn't mean the encounter with your players will end up being an EL X encounter. Generally, I've have reduced the xp for monsters if they're a lot easier to deal with due to PC's getting the drop on them or the monster in question has a valuable ability that has been removed due to the circumstances where the fight occurred. By the same token, monsters that get the drop on the PCs due to preparation or whatever will have their CR nudged upwards (or just a flat extra bonus to xp like 25% or something). In this particular situation seeing how the fight occurred, I would've pegged the Naga as a CR 14 with a slight boost to xp due to it getting the drop on the PCs (the whole dimension door, buff, dimension door back tactic). Unfortunately, all of your PCs are dead except for 1 so this may be a moot issue unless you continue the campaign with the one PC that survived the fight.
NordicBirch 12-03-07, 05:25 PM	Generally, I've have reduced the xp for monsters if they're a lot easier to deal with due to PC's getting the drop on them or the monster in question has a valuable ability that has been removed due to the circumstances where the fight occurred. Hmm. Just wondering, isn't getting a drop on an enemy part of overcoming a challenge? If they catch an orc sleeping by luck it's propably appropriate to lower the CR but if they scout a camp and sneak in at night is it fair to remove xp?
LFK 12-03-07, 06:48 PM	This is too bad as it would be fun to start the next group of PCs in some inn where, out of the blizzard, in walks a half-frozen, mad man... I think too many DMs see a TPK (even if it is just a technical TPK) as being the end of the momentum in a game. A lot of the time it is a perfect way to keep the game going. :dragon: ***** If ever you wonder why I come off as hostile towards your love of the TPK and DM vs. Players it's because in spite of what you think or how it plays out in your games, more often than not a TPK does kill momentum. It's hitting the reset button on the whole story. With a Fort save of +5, it's sad that he's trivial when the party has disintegrate, but managed to roll the party that didn't have it's bases covered. I'm really, really hoping that 4E stops this garbage. 3E already assumes you've got XYZ magical items and JKL spells at your disposal. Assuming "Oh, a mage can just Disintegrate it, make it CR11" is really, really a cramp on creative design.
solbergb 12-03-07, 06:54 PM	How does a creature with the spell casting ability of a 14th level sorcerer, the undead template, an SR of 23, poison and the ability to detect thoughts clock out to only be CR 11? (Fiend folio) Because the authors were stupid. There is no other explanation. CL14 sorcerer no matter what race or condition is minimum CR14. IMHO the bone naga gets enough benefits over a vanilla sorcerer that it should be CR15. Assume it is CR14-15 and you won't go wrong. If you blindly follow the Fiend Folio, expect massive character deaths in any encounter and possible TPK's, unless the party has some massive advantage (they can reliably spam silence spells before it can go, starting from round 1, say, and it doesn't have silent spell as a feat....this would defeat the CR14 human sorcerer too) Even with just vanilla spell choices and uninspired feats, a bone naga can catch the whole party in area spells that add up to > 100 points of damage. This isn't a big deal if your party is level 12....it'll hurt but probably nobody will be dead and they'll have either the abilities to get on top of the bone naga's ability to cast or the active defenses (high powered healing, wall of force, etc) to block or blunt the next round's incoming spellfire. A CR11 monster is considered appropriate for a level 9 party. Most of the party, possibly none will have the hp to survive that if they fail saves, and they won't kill it fast enough to prevent it from just doing the same thing a round later.....killing them all. Good luck with that disintegrate - you're two levels from casting it, even assuming you're still standing after the artillery barrage. By the time you can cast it, TWO bone naga are only a CR13 encounter. With wizard hitpoints you won't likely be standing if they both get their initial salvo off.
lifeblender 12-03-07, 07:21 PM	Because the authors were stupid. There is no other explanation. CL14 sorcerer no matter what race or condition is minimum CR14. IMHO the bone naga gets enough benefits over a vanilla sorcerer that it should be CR15. Nope. Psionic Mind Flayer, Psionicist (Telepath) CL9 is CR 8.
solbergb 12-03-07, 08:31 PM	Nope. Psionic Mind Flayer, Psionicist (Telepath) CL9 is CR 8. Also wrong if a Psionocist is CR9 normally. Seriously folks. Use some common sense. Barring a creature so weak that nearly anything can swat it in a single blow, full spellcasting (or psionics) sets the minimum CR = caster level. Period. No exceptions.
Sinis 12-03-07, 09:03 PM	I'm really, really hoping that 4E stops this garbage. 3E already assumes you've got XYZ magical items and JKL spells at your disposal. Assuming "Oh, a mage can just Disintegrate it, make it CR11" is really, really a cramp on creative design. I see what you're saying, but I don't think its CR was designed with disintegrate in mind. Maybe it was. I dunno, the CR system has been borked since 3.0. Houserule, IMO. Undead get a strong fort save, and add their charisma modifier. It's practically the only contingency that involves undead making fortitude saves, and frankly, I thought corpses were robust (compared to the living). There are a lot of times when the rules fail, and the players just have to houserule it in. Like that thread in the DM Rules Counselling board where lycanthrope couldn't be selected as a favoured enemy. It'd be insanely dumb if no one would hunt lycanthropes (specifically) or create lycanthrope-bane weapons because their creature type was too hard to nail down. Unless 4E offers something good and genuinely new, I'll be extremely hesitant to switch.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 09:14 PM	If ever you wonder why I come off as hostile towards your love of the TPK and DM vs. Players it's because in spite of what you think or how it plays out in your games, more often than not a TPK does kill momentum. It's hitting the reset button on the whole story. I wasn't saying I love TPKs - nor was I suggesting a DM vs. Player gaming atmosphere. In fact, I am totally against a DM vs. Player gaming atmosphere. Monsters vs. player characters? Different story. Sure a TPK may be a bit of struggle to work through, but what worthwhile goal isn't fraught with difficulties? An earned game campaign is one that is more likely to be appreciated by everyone involved - including the DM. Now, if your game absolutely cannot handle a TPK, well, I guess so long as you never throw a d20 you likely will never risk one. Remember, even a house cat, given enough luck, can TPK a group of PCs. :dragon: *****
LFK 12-03-07, 09:42 PM	Now, if your game absolutely cannot handle a TPK, well, I guess so long as you never throw a d20 you likely will never risk one. Remember, even a house cat, given enough luck, can TPK a group of PCs. It just about happened to my current character. Least fun session ever. It's my general philosophy that a significant portion of the GMs job is to keep the story going. Ideally this comes from balanced, thought out encounters. Sometimes it comes from Deus Ex Machina and fiat. I don't really have a problem with a GM saying "guys, sorry, that was way harder than it should have been. You didn't stand a chance. The book said 11 and I didn't really question it. If you want I can make some adjustments and give you a do-over." I have no problem with that because in my mind the "break in the simulation" from DM Fiat is a fair trade for getting to keep my current character instead of losing him (and the party and thus the campaign*) to something that wasn't what anyone signed up for. This isn't WoW or Shadowrun or UO or Bioshock: you don't have to eat what's given you and be grateful. No one will show up and take away your dice if you give out re-rolls or do-overs because you feel like you made a mistake or that the PCs just hit **** luck. *a TPK is by definition the end of the campaign. A new party is a new campaign even if it's in the same continuity and world.
Sinis 12-03-07, 10:36 PM	It's my general philosophy that a significant portion of the GMs job is to keep the story going. Ideally this comes from balanced, thought out encounters. Sometimes it comes from Deus Ex Machina and fiat. I don't think TPKs are absolutely and entirely out of the question. In fact, I'd like to have my DM do it at least once in a while to make sure that it isn't he doesn't have the kid gloves on, and that the PCs are really capable of failure. Nothing is worse when you are invincible because Deux Ex Machina will always save you.
Salla 12-03-07, 10:42 PM	I don't think TPKs are absolutely and entirely out of the question. In fact, I'd like to have my DM do it at least once in a while to make sure that it isn't he doesn't have the kid gloves on, and that the PCs are really capable of failure. However, when a TPK or near TPK is the only definition of 'failure', then there's something wrong with the game. Being defeated should not, inherently, include being killed, but that's a problem with the hit point system. There needs to be more of a buffer between 'unconscious' and 'dead' so you can wind up there through methods beyond raw dumb stupid luck.
Sinis 12-03-07, 11:14 PM	However, when a TPK or near TPK is the only definition of 'failure', then there's something wrong with the game. Being defeated should not, inherently, include being killed, but that's a problem with the hit point system. There needs to be more of a buffer between 'unconscious' and 'dead' so you can wind up there through methods beyond raw dumb stupid luck. Mmm, yeah. The problem is that there is such a wide variety of strengths the party can have at four people, at upper levels. In this particular party, they had no real way of dealing with powerful undead, or even powerful casters. If you consider the standard rogue, cleric, fighter, wizard party that took no prestige classes and didn't multiclass, the Bone Naga would have been completely trivial. Edit: Further, at higher level, what 20% of the party's resources is becomes foggier and foggier.
Salla 12-04-07, 12:58 AM	Mmm, yeah. The problem is that there is such a wide variety of strengths the party can have at four people, at upper levels. In this particular party, they had no real way of dealing with powerful undead, or even powerful casters. If you consider the standard rogue, cleric, fighter, wizard party that took no prestige classes and didn't multiclass, the Bone Naga would have been completely trivial. Edit: Further, at higher level, what 20% of the party's resources is becomes foggier and foggier. Well, the rogue would likely have been sitting around twiddling his thumbs, but yeah, the cleric and wizard would have demolished this thing. Okay, Bone Naga's in MM2, not FF ... good grief. AC 16, and (barring buffing) truly lousy attacks. A frontliner at 11th level should have an AC at or near 31. That's definitely its weak points right there. An 11th level fighter could easily full power attack this thing every single round and expect to hit twice for 44 points of damage just off the PA (everybody knows you only Power Attack with a two-handed weapon). Yeah ... it was just a matter of party composition plus enemy equalling toast.
Cuindless 12-04-07, 01:02 AM	It's my general philosophy that a significant portion of the GMs job is to keep the story going. Ideally this comes from balanced, thought out encounters. Sometimes it comes from Deus Ex Machina and fiat. You see, maybe it's just my 1E AD&D roots showing, but I think of a DM as more of a HEARTLESS ARBITRATOR OF THE RULES!!!
SokenzanMarauder 12-04-07, 01:29 AM	You see, maybe it's just my 1E AD&D roots showing, but I think of a DM as more of a HEARTLESS ARBITRATOR OF THE RULES!!!I wouldn't go with the word 'heartless;' I prefer 'neutral.'
Fend 12-04-07, 01:57 AM	There's an excerpt from the Serpent Kingdoms on the Wizards site that has this Dark Naga Sorcerer Bone Naga stat block: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=4 How does the stat block you used compare to that? The above stat block shows CR15, and I believe yours was stronger since you were casting 7th level spells (and threw the full might of the Spell Compendium at them), so a CR16+ undead spellcaster, if you believe that page, with 11 rounds to prepare... Well i just used the one fresh out of MM2. I just had to make my own spell list, which i admit was pretty uber, but not completely unusual. What's the level of anticipate teleport? They knew the thing likes to teleport. Or were they planning on opening with DimAnchor after the buffs were complete?... Not sure, but the spell it used was Dimension door. they talked about dimensional anchor, but even if they did set it - no one cast it before it ported out. (They teleported to an alcove near the main chamber - but still in earshot due to the echo in the ice cavern of incantations) basically, they entered the chamber to find it empty - but cause theyed done that the first time they knew it was coming back. In this particular situation seeing how the fight occurred, I would've pegged the Naga as a CR 14 with a slight boost to xp due to it getting the drop on the PCs (the whole dimension door, buff, dimension door back tactic). Unfortunately, all of your PCs are dead except for 1 so this may be a moot issue unless you continue the campaign with the one PC that survived the fight. I kind of anticipated it would be a tough fight, so with 2 weeks down time before this session i began planning the next campaign. Same world. just set up in the north with more of a frostburn theme. Everyone was begining to get into the idea (they knew they were going up against the bone naga. i wouldnt be surprised if any of them studied it out of game - Admittedly - without a spell list, its true nastyness IS utterly Random) With that in mind, the need to continue this one kind of defeated the purpose of planning the next one (which was my fallback. Should be good tho) If ever you wonder why I come off as hostile towards your love of the TPK and DM vs. Players it's because in spite of what you think or how it plays out in your games, more often than not a TPK does kill momentum. It's hitting the reset button on the whole story.. We had a player instigated TPK not to long ago that killed the major storyline. The sorcerer became obsessed with inevitably dieing and in a bid for immortality he killed the entire party then left to hunt down the cleric (who had no idea). The cleric couldnt bring himself to kill his former freind, and instead had him planeshifted to Baphomets Endless maze in the abyss (where he was promptly torn appart by a Goristo after a few weeks of played out wonderings). one of the characters who died however had his own story plot fear of punishment in hell and was trying to do good, so i ran out a hellish court case and he ended up re-entering the campaign as a hellbred. The TPK inadvertantly summed up the story and launched a new one around the Hellbred (with the cleric makeing a Cameo appearance as an NPC before being written out due to University commitments) . Ironicly, The Hellbred was the last survivor who is now insane wondering the mountains. Asmuch as id love to launch a new campaign with him being unhinged, Id much rather leave his fate a mystery. They may well encounter him again in future. who knows.
runestar 12-04-07, 02:10 AM	It is also worth noting that npc crs are notoriously inaccurate. I personally feel it is best to compare them with the closest alternative, since monster's crs are calculated from scratch, rather than subject to some 1-size-fits-all formula. For instance, you cannot possibly tell me with a straight face that a fighter20 npc is supposed to be as tough as a tarrasque in combat. It is cr13-14 at best, IMO. There are quite a few entries where monsters have spellcasting = cr+1 (such as planetar, ghaele eladrin). A psionic mindflayer is cr8. I feel that this is the best yardstick to use when determining the crs of casters. For instance, this implies that the "real" cr of a human psion9 is cr8 at most, or perhaps even just cr7 or 7.5. The death slaad has access to 8th and 9th lv SLAs, despite being just cr13. In the same vein, a sorc14 is definitely not worth a cr14. Far from it. If we use existing guidelines, this suggests that a sorc14 might be a cr11-12 at most, which seems more reasonable.:)
Cuindless 12-04-07, 03:33 AM	It is also worth noting that npc crs are notoriously inaccurate. I personally feel it is best to compare them with the closest alternative, since monster's crs are calculated from scratch, rather than subject to some 1-size-fits-all formula. For instance, you cannot possibly tell me with a straight face that a fighter20 npc is supposed to be as tough as a tarrasque in combat. It is cr13-14 at best, IMO. They aren't supposed to be equals, they're both supposed to expend 20% of a 20th level party's resources, which, if viewed that way... is obviously... well... CRAP... this means that either the Tarrasque is overpowered for it's CR (really?!?!? No way!!!) or a level 20 fighter is underpowered for it's CR (GASP!). Or CR is a guideline for awarding XP which averages out over time, rather than being a hard and fast rule which delineates similar effectiveness in combat. There are quite a few entries where monsters have spellcasting = cr+1 (such as planetar, ghaele eladrin). A psionic mindflayer is cr8. I feel that this is the best yardstick to use when determining the crs of casters. For instance, this implies that the "real" cr of a human psion9 is cr8 at most, or perhaps even just cr7 or 7.5. The death slaad has access to 8th and 9th lv SLAs, despite being just cr13. In the same vein, a sorc14 is definitely not worth a cr14. Far from it. If we use existing guidelines, this suggests that a sorc14 might be a cr11-12 at most, which seems more reasonable.:) So, based on this statement, a Bone Naga should be a CR 11 creature. After all, it has the abilities of a Sorcerer14, plus the advantages and disadvantages of being undead...
runestar 12-04-07, 03:48 AM	So, based on this statement, a Bone Naga should be a CR 11 creature. After all, it has the abilities of a Sorcerer14, plus the advantages and disadvantages of being undead... Well, that is something only proper playtesting will reveal. The OP did mention have some problems with it, so maybe a cr12 or even 13 might be more apt. Basically, my point was that claiming that a bone naga is too strong for its cr simply because a sorc14 is cr14 (and arguably weaker than a bone naga stat-wise) is fallacious, as it assumes (erroneously) that a sorc14 npc is indeed worth the challenge its cr implies.:)
NordicBirch 12-04-07, 06:35 AM	Not sure, but the spell it used was Dimension door. they talked about dimensional anchor, but even if they did set it - no one cast it before it ported out. (They teleported to an alcove near the main chamber - but still in earshot due to the echo in the ice cavern of incantations) basically, they entered the chamber to find it empty - but cause theyed done that the first time they knew it was coming back. DimAnchor is Ray so wouldn't have been quite as nice as I thought. Anticipate delays incoming teleport effects (including DDoor) for 1 round and warns plus tells the precise entrylocation, so you always have a round to prepare, 3rd level 24h duration. Greater version gives 3 rounds and is lvl6. Spell Compendium. You can ready all kinds of nastiness when you know someone is dropping in...
solbergb 12-04-07, 12:11 PM	Well, the rogue would likely have been sitting around twiddling his thumbs, but yeah, the cleric and wizard would have demolished this thing. Okay, Bone Naga's in MM2, not FF ... good grief. AC 16, and (barring buffing) truly lousy attacks. . You're kidding right. A sorcerer14 has AC = 10 + dex mod (barring buffing) and truly lousy attacks. That doesn't make it less than CR14. (there WILL be buffing, spells that last all day or several hours, and if it has any "notice PC" spells or skills it will likely also have spells that last minutes running too). There will likely be magic items too. And a contingency spell. and spells and feats carefully chosen to complement, just like any other L14 sorcerer you stat up to fight the party. "being undead" does not justify a -3 CR. The pile of immunities, d12 hit die, the % of damage, higher ability scores and the (minimal) attack abilities more or less cancel out the NPC equipment list of an elite array level 14 PC race sorcerer.
lifeblender 12-04-07, 01:13 PM	Also wrong if a Psionocist is CR9 normally. Seriously folks. Use some common sense. Barring a creature so weak that nearly anything can swat it in a single blow, full spellcasting (or psionics) sets the minimum CR = caster level. Period. No exceptions. Check the difference between what the Mind Flayer gets for gear as a CR8 encounter vs. what the human sorcerer 9 is geared with as an NPC of level 9. It's huge. 3,400 gold vs. 12,000 gold. The Mind Flayer MIGHT have a single moderate-power magic item. The NPC Sorcerer is geared to shore up all its defenses. If you would give the Mind Flayer some magic item in particular, rather than rolling randomly consider how much you could give the Sorcerer with that money (like particularly useful scrolls). The Sorcerer 9 also has 5,700 gold unspent, which could buy all sorts of things, whereas the Mind Flayer is not assumed to get to choose. This is enough to make the difference between CR8 and CR9. If you pick good gear for the Mind Flayer, i.e. allow it to choose its treasure, and you make really powerful choices, that ought to increase the CR. Also, check the CR of a Kobold Adept 4, which can cast Scorching Ray and Invisibility. It's CR 1. That sounds nasty, except it also has CR 1 gear, i.e. nothing, rather than 4th-level NPC gear. A Kobold Adept 8, which can cast Lightning Bolt, is CR 5 as you might hope, although that's an 8d6 bolt.
Salla 12-04-07, 01:29 PM	You're kidding right. No. A sorcerer14 has AC = 10 + dex mod (barring buffing) and truly lousy attacks. Plus Mithral Chain Shirt of Twilight, plus Ring of Protection, plus Mithral Buckler, plus Amulet of Natural Armor ... and probably a Cloak of Displacement on top of it. At 14th level, you don't need AC buffs. You got AC stuffs. Truly lousy attacks, I give you. That doesn't make it less than CR14. An NPCs CR includes its gear, I believe. Therefore, since this thing *has* to expend spell slots to boost its AC and other relevant abilities, I'd say it does. It's more akin to a naked 14th level sorcerer, which would lower its CR by lack of equipment. (there WILL be buffing, spells that last all day or several hours, and if it has any "notice PC" spells or skills it will likely also have spells that last minutes running too). There will likely be magic items too. And a contingency spell. and spells and feats carefully chosen to complement, just like any other L14 sorcerer you stat up to fight the party. "being undead" does not justify a -3 CR. The pile of immunities, d12 hit die, the % of damage, higher ability scores and the (minimal) attack abilities more or less cancel out the NPC equipment list of an elite array level 14 PC race sorcerer. In most games, being an undead *is* a weakness. D12 hit die is nice, but when you don't get a CON bonus to go with it, it's not any better than a d8 with a (fairly typical) 14 CON, and most parties have a cleric. I don't peg this thing higher than CR 11. It was just a bad match for the PCs in question.
Urithair 12-04-07, 02:46 PM	Fend, I kinda felt for you until you listed the pc's party composition. You even admit that you knew you were setting your party up for a TPK, why else start planning a new campaign? No matter how 'prepared' they were, they were underoptimized, this encounter wasn't appropriate, and it is your fault. You sound like a DM I used to play with who TPK'd the entire party at the exact moment the party started to come together and have a sense of unity. The players were all having fun and it felt like 'high adventure' and then WHAM, TPK (we had to make a high fort save or face MINUTES of being nauseated in a situation where escape was impossible). Suffice to say that it killed the game and no one has ever played with that DM again. It sounds like your egotism got in the way of your responsibilty to create appropriate encounters. Your posts make it clear that you used the low CR as an excuse to kill the party.
Axiomatic_vampire 12-04-07, 04:07 PM	A Bone Naga is one of the monsters that should be listed a few CRs higher in my opinion. If a DM wants to run one as a CR 11, that DM probably shouldn't optimize the spells much. Power-word blind comes to mind. How does a party of lvl11 PCs cope with that? Not even a barbarian with 20 con can avoid the effect. If a Bone Naga took finger of death, the fortitude save would be DC20. A poor fortitude save would likely be around 7-10. That makes it very likely that one or two party members would die. NOT a CR11. MMII, it's just like that. Malabranche is my favorite under CRd monster, as an aside, if you guys get tired of Bone Nagas.
solbergb 12-04-07, 04:44 PM	I don't peg this thing higher than CR 11. It was just a bad match for the PCs in question. If it was caster level 14 with pre-selected spell-like abilities (such as most demons/devils) I might agree, depending on the spells. It does not MATTER what the defense is if the offense can wipe most of the party from the board in one round of actions. Which I guarantee, a Bone Naga can do to a level 9 party. Or two to a level 11 party. God help the party if it has time to buff....lets see, just with core spells mage armor, shield, prot good blur, mirror image, see invisible, false life (probably empowered) polymorph to devourer (+15 natural armor and 28 strength) stoneskin overland flight He's also got a L2 or L3 slot free to slap on some energy resistances That's AC32, 34 vs good, DR10/adamantine (and half damage from piercing so arrows will have issues) plus miss chance stuff going to block the touch attacks with gobs of slots left over for offensive stuff and still all of his feats and with no equipment used. Noncore I can get the AC up to 40ish, again with mostly long running buffs (upgrade to greater mage armor, dragonskin. d12 hit dice is roughly the same as d4 hit dice+elite array constitution and a +4-6 constitution amulet. There's nothing to choose from there. Actually most level 14 NPC's will only have a +2 amulet....16k is a huge percentage of their overall cash and it's more likely to be spent on the charisma cloak. The higher saves of the human (due to resistance items and maybe statboost items) are countered by the many immunities of a naga (which may not be obvious, if the naga uses its spells to polymorph or Veil its appearance) You can be ANYTHING with level 14 sorcerer casting and NO equipment and you are probably STILL CR14....at worst CR13. CR11 is a total joke.
DMDaddy 12-04-07, 05:19 PM	I think this naga might be good for my group of 15th levels. It seems like a good guardian for the 2-3 beholder (in the service of a devil) they will face in their next session.
Sinis 12-04-07, 07:29 PM	Fend, I kinda felt for you until you listed the pc's party composition. You even admit that you knew you were setting your party up for a TPK, why else start planning a new campaign? No matter how 'prepared' they were, they were underoptimized, this encounter wasn't appropriate, and it is your fault. You sound like a DM I used to play with who TPK'd the entire party at the exact moment the party started to come together and have a sense of unity. The players were all having fun and it felt like 'high adventure' and then WHAM, TPK (we had to make a high fort save or face MINUTES of being nauseated in a situation where escape was impossible). Suffice to say that it killed the game and no one has ever played with that DM again. It sounds like your egotism got in the way of your responsibilty to create appropriate encounters. Your posts make it clear that you used the low CR as an excuse to kill the party. By "not optimized" did you mean "did not have the power of a default rogue, warrior, cleric, wizard party"? I'm not sure Fend *meant* to *intentionally* utterly obliterate the party. It just came down to the party not having disintegrate. All the undead are overcompensated for disintegrate and turning vulnerability. It's not a good way to balance it, but oh well.
nlentz88 12-04-07, 07:44 PM	First, let's not confuse CR with EL. The naga may be CR 11, but the encounter could have been EL 14. Second, I have no qualms with PCs or the entire party kicking the proverbial bucket every once and again. It's part of the game. However, I'm the kind of DM who may fudge a die roll in order to keep the gaming night (and months of build-up) from collapsing into a bewildered, depressed pool of dice, miniatures, and tears. Sometimes. I like to go with the feel. Anyway, back to the naga encounter. There may have been a point during the slaughter when the OP thought to himself, "Gee. This could be a TPK." At that moment, the OP has a few busy moments to ponder the ramifications and weigh them against his personal DM code. I agree with the above posters who have noted that the CR/EL system has notable flaws. The sources of these flaws are many and varied, from inadequate play-testing during design to the always fertile imaginations of the good boys and girls sitting around the gaming table. Each and every DM has been in a situation similar to the OP's. I don't know what I would do if were running the OP's naga encounter and smelled a TPK in the making. If I felt the game was new (or old) enough that the players (and I) wouldn't mind starting over, then I'd probably just let the game play itself as usual. However, if I felt that the players and I would lose much more than we would gain from a TPK, I may wing it. I might fudge a die roll or call in the cavalry. As a DM, there are countless things that can be done to save a party. So, let's all hold out hope that these kinds of CR/EL problems will be fixed in 4th Ed. Until then, all DMs must know that the CR/EL system has problems and that faulty encounters could result in needless TPKs. So either accept the increase to party danger (not necessarily a bad thing), or be prepared to wing it a bit. Just my $0.02 (worth less and less every day).
Euclid 12-04-07, 08:09 PM	It's an intelligent, undead sorcerer with the ability to read minds, so I'd say that Fend played the Naga 'correctly.' Sorcerer. Not wizard. It should have broad, multipurpose spells, not random narrow ones designed to be anti-monk.
solbergb 12-04-07, 09:06 PM	I'm not sure Fend *meant* to *intentionally* utterly obliterate the party. It just came down to the party not having disintegrate. All the undead are overcompensated for disintegrate and turning vulnerability. It's not a good way to balance it, but oh well. Good luck hitting the L14 sorcerer with disintegrate. even if you can see past the greater invis, you've got blur and mirror image for ray defense to worry about. Then on the Naga there is the SR of 23. Which you'll fail 55% of the time at level 11. At CR11, you don't have the spell anyway. You're level 9. If you are level 11, there are probably two of them. I won't even go into what things like ray deflection or project image or just playing games with illusions might do to the one disintegrate as a tactic. Even if you get through all that, it probably has the hitpoints to survive the spell. 14d12+empowered false life = ~114 hitpoints. Disintegrate at CL11 only does about 77 hitpoints. For that matter, good luck turning it with a L9 cleric. It's cleric level +5. A tweaked out turning cleric can do it (heighten turning, sacred shield etc) but that assumes the naga isn't bolstered, isn't in a desecrated area, doesn't have a feat spent on turn resistance etc. Other undead don't have a -3 CR rating because theyre "vulnerable by weak save" and "turnable". This one should not either.
solbergb 12-04-07, 09:16 PM	Sorcerer. Not wizard. It should have broad, multipurpose spells, not random narrow ones designed to be anti-monk. The ability to read minds *is* a multipurpose spell. I've seen several sorcerers with detect thoughts in my time - it isn't just about reading surface thoughts, it is about gauging intelligence levels of enemies and detecting living creatures through walls. As for anti-monk, well....a monk can't stun it and he can't trip it. Grapple defenses are something any spellcaster has to think about in D&D - dim door or teleport is a pick of nearly every 14th level sorcerer out there. (if they lack those spells, they will have some other strategy for being grappled, perhaps equipment) The only other thing a monk does is melee damage, which is another concern of any caster (flight helps, battlefield control helps). Monks are going to ignore a lot of the offense...area spells and save dependent spells will mostly be ineffective, ray spells will miss sometimes. Generally fighting a mixed party with a monk included will result in the monk being the last one standing...at which point the L14 sorcerer can focus on stuff the monk can't slime around (metamagicked magic missiles perhaps) A L12-14 monk can successfully chase the naga around and put it down. A level 9 monk isn't gonna succeed barring getting the drop on it and being backed with a silence spell. (and naga having no counter to grapple+silence)
Euclid 12-04-07, 09:33 PM	I'm more saying that the problem is what sorcerer picks both Babau Slime and Balor Nimbus? Especially one water and cold themed?
Fend575 12-05-07, 12:20 AM	I'm more saying that the problem is what sorcerer picks both Babau Slime and Balor Nimbus? Especially one water and cold themed? hrmm. well, i admit i couldnt make it all ice and stuff themed, i picked them cause they seemed abit evil and like good choices.. but im begining to feel really bad about this now.. :( I just looked at my next dungeon and im scared of doing this again.. I dont want to but Well... Ok. the next dungeon is in a swamp. Under a ruined City, thats half submerged into a swamp. Reasoning in my mind says that means the dungeon beneaths gonna be under water in some places. fair enough. .. I didnt know what to put in the area so i turned to Stormwrack for the cold Aquatic theme. And seeded the area with Boggiant, Scrags, Catoblepas, Dark Tentacles, 7 headed hydras, an 11 headed Cryohydra, a Divine Half Fiend Annis hag (only clocked up to CR 10), Grave touched Lacedon barbarians, Spell stiched Ghasts, Will-o-wisps, Kelpies, freindly nixies and Crimson Deaths. But a Catoblepas has a DC 18 Fortsave instant Death weapon. And its only CR 6????? Crimson Deaths are Nasty. Dark Tentacles are confusing to Run, I made the annis hag into a Boss (a muchly feared witch, related to Malchanet) for the Scrag tribe. I made the bog giants neutral and indifferent (so they can be talked to).. thing im more worried bout tho is the 7 headed Hydras. would they make a good stockfodder encounter? or are they way to much of a hassle. ive been Dming for a while. but im begining to feel like im overthinking things. I mean its simple enough to just not include the things that bug me. From just reading them over, i think Catoblepas and Dark Tentacles are abit broken.. but theyre nicely themed creatures for the area. and interesting to boot. i dunno anymore.
SokenzanMarauder 12-05-07, 01:19 AM	It's pretty much Monster Manual II as a whole. The CRs in that book are just borked. Look at the Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 9 and it can cast M's Disjunction, Implosion, and Disintegrate (At caster level 14) at WILL!
Cuindless 12-05-07, 01:48 AM	hrmm. well, i admit i couldnt make it all ice and stuff themed, i picked them cause they seemed abit evil and like good choices.. but im begining to feel really bad about this now.. :( I just looked at my next dungeon and im scared of doing this again.. I dont want to but Well... Ok. the next dungeon is in a swamp. Under a ruined City, thats half submerged into a swamp. Reasoning in my mind says that means the dungeon beneaths gonna be under water in some places. fair enough. .. I didnt know what to put in the area so i turned to Stormwrack for the cold Aquatic theme. And seeded the area with Boggiant, Scrags, Catoblepas, Dark Tentacles, 7 headed hydras, an 11 headed Cryohydra, a Divine Half Fiend Annis hag (only clocked up to CR 10), Grave touched Lacedon barbarians, Spell stiched Ghasts, Will-o-wisps, Kelpies, freindly nixies and Crimson Deaths. But a Catoblepas has a DC 18 Fortsave instant Death weapon. And its only CR 6????? Crimson Deaths are Nasty. Dark Tentacles are confusing to Run, I made the annis hag into a Boss (a muchly feared witch, related to Malchanet) for the Scrag tribe. I made the bog giants neutral and indifferent (so they can be talked to).. thing im more worried bout tho is the 7 headed Hydras. would they make a good stockfodder encounter? or are they way to much of a hassle. ive been Dming for a while. but im begining to feel like im overthinking things. I mean its simple enough to just not include the things that bug me. From just reading them over, i think Catoblepas and Dark Tentacles are abit broken.. but theyre nicely themed creatures for the area. and interesting to boot. i dunno anymore. I'm going to present an opinion here that is probably going to get me burned at the stake, but... well... the Earth revolves around the sun... No... wait, that was Copernicus. Seriously, you're thinking too much like an optimizer. You took a monster (bone naga) with caster levels (sorcerer 14) and outfitted it with what I consider optimized spells. I'm sure that better optimizers than I can come up with 1000 different ways you could have made your monster more deadly, but face facts... it was deadly enough. Did you ever stop to look at how the naga became a bone naga in the first place and why it would have the spells it has? Right now in my campaign the PCs are going against a Wizard7/Loremaster7. He's obsessed with knowledge. As such, he's focused on divination spells quite a bit, rather than the conjuration/transmutation spells that would make him a super-enemy. On the other hand, the PCs are what you might call "sub-optimized". The paladin put his 18 in charisma and has the feats Negotiator, Persuasive and Leadership. He's 12th level and not human, so do the math on how many feats he has. For a party tank, he's not exactly uber-leet when it comes to damage dealing. So I outfit my NPC bad guy with a similar sub-optimized build because, frankly, when you go through 14 levels with knowledge as your obsession, you don't research cloudkill and forcecage because they're really good at stopping adventurers. In the future, look at your BBEGs as real characters and imagine what you would have done at the various levels they've gone through. Heck, do that with your non-BBEGs and mooks. No one makes it to level 8, even as a figher, without making a few hard choices about feats, attribute points and magic item purchases. In the long run, I'm saying that nobody evolves in a vaccuum. Don't look at every monster as some gods-awful enemy designed specifically to hamper the PCs. Instead, view them as a homogenous creature trying to make there way in the world as good (or evil) as they can until their best laid plans were thwarted by this itinerant band of murdering hobos. No monster sets out and says, "Ah yes... I'll be facing this exact group of mercenaries so I should research the following spells and abilities to combat them. While I'm at it, I might also want to become undead, because I know that there won't be a cleric among them... mwahahahaha!!!"
runestar 12-05-07, 06:56 AM	Look at the Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 9 and it can cast M's Disjunction, Implosion, and Disintegrate (At caster level 14) at WILL! Yeah, and a single tanglefoot bag renders it completely impotent (since it has no ranks in concentration, and SLAs are subject to the dc15 check for casting while entangled despite having no somatic components - see the faq entry on casting stilled spells while entangled).;) A lop-sided battle either way. Check the difference between what the Mind Flayer gets for gear as a CR8 encounter vs. what the human sorcerer 9 is geared with as an NPC of level 9. It's huge. 3,400 gold vs. 12,000 gold. That disparity doesn't really count for a lot, bearing in mind that a mind flayer is statistically superior to the human sorc, and his extra gear only goes so far in making up for this disparity.
Fend575 12-05-07, 09:55 AM	mm. This book just gets more and more broken by the second ehy.. Adamantine horrors, Bone Nagas, Catoblepas, Probably dozens of others =/ Its just a shame cause some of the creatures in there would be so fun to use.
solbergb 12-05-07, 10:02 AM	It's pretty much Monster Manual II as a whole. The CRs in that book are just borked. Look at the Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 9 and it can cast M's Disjunction, Implosion, and Disintegrate (At caster level 14) at WILL! Yeah. Adamantine Clockwork horrors are another one that is famously stupidly CR'd. The MDJ and Implosion are totally over the top. Disintegrate is something a CR9 critter might have if it doesn't have much else, but the CL is too high and "at will" is too often. Consider advancing it 4 hit dice to CR10 and giving it quicken spell like ability. Ouch! The weaker horrors are kind of ok.
solbergb 12-05-07, 10:09 AM	In the long run, I'm saying that nobody evolves in a vaccuum. Don't look at every monster as some gods-awful enemy designed specifically to hamper the PCs. Instead, view them as a homogenous creature trying to make there way in the world as good (or evil) as they can until their best laid plans were thwarted by this itinerant band of murdering hobos. No monster sets out and says, "Ah yes... I'll be facing this exact group of mercenaries so I should research the following spells and abilities to combat them. While I'm at it, I might also want to become undead, because I know that there won't be a cleric among them... mwahahahaha!!!" And how does this not make it CR14 instead of CR11? A generic spell list on a creature with 14 hit dice, hitpoints equal to a L14 sorcerer with equipment, a number of immunities, half damage from piercing, SR23 and almost ANY rational sorcerer mix is CR14. Remember a CR11 creature fighting alone againt a party means the party is level nine. The cleric can't turn it. The wizard will fail any SR=yes spell 2/3 of the time. The rogue can't sneak attack it. The fighter might be effective if he doesn't use the weapon that does half damage, AND he can somehow get at the level 14 sorcerer (who will probably be able to fly at minimum, and have some kind of plan for what he does if grappled, no matter how he "arrived" at level 14) A CR14 creature fighting alone will be fighting a level 12 party. The cleric has a chance to turn it. The wizard can stick spells on it 2/3 of the time. The rogue still can't sneak attack it, but might be able to UMD some support scroll (and at L12 can afford to do so better than at L9). The fighter is more likely ot have equipment that will help him get at the flying artillery platform that a generic L14 sorcerer is. Which is the appropriate CR here? Optomize the spell list and feats, and you turn it from a swingy battle where the typical result is 1-2 PC deaths to a near certain TPK vs a normal 4 person iconic-power party if it is CR'd at 11. If it is CR'd at 14, optomizing the spell list and feats just makes for a more challenging battle...burning more resources perhaps or endangering one PC's life.
solbergb 12-05-07, 10:13 AM	Yeah, and a single tanglefoot bag renders it completely impotent (since it has no ranks in concentration, and SLAs are subject to the dc15 check for casting while entangled despite having no somatic components - see the faq entry on casting stilled spells while entangled).;) If that's your worry give them a minion that can do a bit of damage. Tanglefoot bags scrape off with damage. Or just have more of them. They're only CR9, and entangled can still cast a spell 30% of the time with no ranks and con = -. A single clockwoork horror at CR9 is fighting a L7 party. Four of them would be fighting a L11 party. You're also assuming you'll get surprise or init, and will be in range for a tanglefoot bag. MDJ and Implosion have a 60' range, disintegrate 240'. Tanglefoot bags have a range mod of 10'. They'll do damage all out of proportion to their CR before most parties can engage close enough to shut them down. (ONE MDJ pretty much hoses most parties even if the party wins easily).
solbergb 12-05-07, 10:17 AM	That disparity doesn't really count for a lot, bearing in mind that a mind flayer is statistically superior to the human sorc, and his extra gear only goes so far in making up for this disparity. Agreed. The extra hit dice of the mind flayer and the mind blast power alone tend to even out any gear avantage of the human sorc. not to mention the whole "I eat brains and they die" power, although granted their grapple check is generally insufficient to do on a target that isn't stunned by the mind blast.
Fend575 12-05-07, 10:37 AM	no matter how he "arrived" at level 14 :bored: all fair and good, but bone nagas get created at caster level 14... like. so how does that work in terms of organically developed spell list choices? It really actually was created - just like that. Im sure the template from serpant kingdoms differs its description, but the one in the MM2 just says what it says. just figured id point that out (considering the posts concerning my optimised spell list)
Phrennzy 12-05-07, 10:40 AM	Remember a CR11 creature fighting alone againt a party means the party is level nine. Huh? I may have missed something, but wouldn't a CR 11 creature, even alone, be an appropriate challenge for a party of level 11?
solbergb 12-05-07, 01:15 PM	Nope. A CR11 encounter is expected to drain a minimal amount of resources from a level 11 party, not to pose a serious threat. to put it into perspective.... four level 11 people make a level 11 party. Any of them cloned and put on the enemy side is a CR11 enemy. Most parties can beat up one of their party members pretty easily. A APL+2 encounter (CR13) is going to actually make the party work to win, but will not generally result in any deaths...just significant resource drain (top tier spells, more charges of clw wand, etc). A APL+4 encounter (CR15) is like facing themselves. It is a coin toss who will win. This will likely result in a character death, and may result in a TPK. It is a very big deal to take something that is actually as capable as a level 14 sorcerer and call it level 11. A CR bump of three is roughly equal to tripling the number of monsters present. (doubling is EL+2, quadruple is EL+4) Three level 11 sorcerers is equivalent of a level 14 sorcerer by the CR system. Do you not see why three bone nagas is significantly more dangerous than three level 11 sorcerers? The former have level 5 spells, the latter can empower anything the former can cast with their level 7 slots. The former have 11hd, the latter 14hd, so the latter are probably more durable. The nagas have a four L7 slots, 7 level 6 slots and 2 more level 5 slots than the sorcerers. They also have an extra feat, a L7 spell known, two L6 spells known, a L5 spell and L4 spell known that the L11 sorcerers lack. Whereas if you compare the bone naga to a level 14 sorcerer, the only difference between them is the equipment of the sorcerer (assuming d12 roughly equals d4+con bonuses on hit dice) vs the bone naga passive defenses (SR23, higher base AC to hang buffs on, half damage to a damage type, undead type instead of whatever LA+0 race the sorc is) An even more direct comparison is a ghost sorcerer. Being a ghost adds +2 to the CR. (a L14 ghost sorcerer is level 16). Clearly being undead isn't seen as a disadvantage here. +2 CR for turn resistance+4, incorporeality and some ghost tricks that may compliment the spells is probably ok compared to what a bone naga gets for being undead. But it sure isn't +5 CR for that.
Nephlite 12-05-07, 01:52 PM	Good luck hitting the L14 sorcerer with disintegrate. even if you can see past the greater invis, you've got blur and mirror image for ray defense to worry about. Then on the Naga there is the SR of 23. Which you'll fail 55% of the time at level 11. At CR11, you don't have the spell anyway. You're level 9. If you are level 11, there are probably two of them. Unless, this was a bodss fight: there is only 1 at level 11. That is how Crs work to expend around 20% of resources.
SokenzanMarauder 12-05-07, 03:43 PM	Yeah, and a single tanglefoot bag renders it completely impotent (since it has no ranks in concentration, and SLAs are subject to the dc15 check for casting while entangled despite having no somatic components - see the faq entry on casting stilled spells while entangled).;)So your solution is to fight a broken creature with a broken item? Eh, okay? Though I suppose I see you point. Still, the Adamantine Horror has an initiative check modifier of +8 (though an elf that's going for a high initiative could have a modifier of around +10 by this time before items (Dex 22 and Imp. Initiative).) which is nothing to laugh at and if it goes first, it's almost a guarantee that someone'll end up dead or gear-neutered.
Phrennzy 12-05-07, 04:40 PM	Nope. A CR11 encounter is expected to drain a minimal amount of resources from a level 11 party, not to pose a serious threat. The SRD Defines the CR: "This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty." I have read that an encounter equal to the party level should be expected to use up 20-25% of the parties resources. Of course, this does not mean that I agree about how the Bone Naga is rated. I will say that the spell selection and prep time in the example will boost the CR, or at least, the EL. Were the Bone Naga in question created as a war machine, with multiple Area Effect spells, the challenge might be smaller. While I do not have the specifics of the spell, I have the feeling that "Babau's Slime" is a bit more effective than a fireball, even if it's empowered, maximized, or otherwise enhanced.
solbergb 12-05-07, 08:25 PM	Not really. All babau slime does is simulate what the demon does...gives a bit of acid damage and weapon breakage. It makes the creature mildly more annoying to melee. Most monks I know would just suck it up...fire shield is worse. For most level 9-11 parties sucking up an empowered CL14 cone of cold is going to leave some of them unable to attack at all. 73 points of damage and half will probably fail saves. Each round they fail to kill it, it can do it again. The maximized fireballs are for when he dim doors 800' in the air and decides to bombard them....
solbergb 12-05-07, 08:36 PM	Unless, this was a bodss fight: there is only 1 at level 11. That is how Crs work to expend around 20% of resources. EL+0 encounters aren't especially dangerous to a party. EL+2 encounters are moderately dangerous. For the record, I don't consider 20% of reasources to be all that significant, especially as in a EL+0 encounter these will be mostly things like healing wands and low level spell slots that don't impact the ability of a party to fight a more challenging encounter later. (too many EL+0 can of course...eventually you run out of weak options and have to waste the good stuff on the minor encounters, if you are a typical party). EL+2 by contrast will tend to drain the "good stuff" from the party, making it less able to fight similar encounters later. They are still not expected to kill anybody though, barring a lot of bad luck. EL+3 is in the neighborhood of lethal for one guy, EL+4 risks TPK on a coin toss. Those are the basic expectations for a 4 person party. A bone naga is not generally somebody that I'd assume would be guarding the privy, so yeah, I was assuming a boss fight or an objective-battle fight. Still, the argument works fine for the bone naga as a minion type.... Would you rather fight a fully equipped level 11 sorcerer at level 11? Or would you rather fight a bone naga at level 11? Ask the same question for a level 9 party, or for a level 11 party with two of them. gaining THREE FULL CASTER LEVELS makes the naga encounter automatically much, much more dangerous. Just using basic boom as an illustration, boring old direct damage attacks. The L11 sorcerer's max damage on a single target is likely an empowered scorching ray, weighing in at a respectable 63 damage. His best area option is an empowered fireball, 52.5 damage with save of DC of 17-18. his best save/xxx spell will have a DC of 19-20. To pick a common caster-level dependent effect, evards tentacles has a grapple DC of 19. A bone naga (assuming about same cha as sorc, I have not seen statblock but my memory was its DC's were pretty high when I fought one) will have the following options. In this example, the naga spent the L12 feat that the L11 sorc doesn't have yet on maximize. empowered, maximized scorching ray (93 damage) or maximized orb (84 damage) for single target. empowered cone of cold (73 damage DC20) or maximized fireball (60 damage DC18) for area, best save/xxx spell will have DC 21-22 and his evards will have grapple checks of 22. He'll also have a bunch more spells known and will be fighting with L6 and L7 slots, freeing L4-5 slots for long duration defensive buffs (such as overland flight and stoneskin) These are not the same things. Door #2 is obviously superior to Door #1. It is in fact exactly as superior as a L14 sorcerer, which is 3 CR's higher.....
lifeblender 12-06-07, 12:40 AM	... But a Catoblepas has a DC 18 Fortsave instant Death weapon. And its only CR 6????? .... When something is powerful like that, think a minute about its effects on the surroundings. Lots of people would fail a DC 18 Fort save. That means that there are lots of victims, maybe even a few of the Trolls and such that you mentioned. If you leave these victims lying around, and the players run into them, that's a good hook for preparing for the fight. Give them a few shots at the relevant knowledge check if they try to investigate. Also, the entry states that the death ray is usually for self-defense, and they're usually neutral. They're INT 2 creatures, and probably more concerned with self-preservation than anything else. They've got a CR that matches their powers. They've got 6HD, low INT, and powerful abilities. CR6 is about right if you play them at about dog or bull styles of intelligence. The DC is correct for 10 + 1/2 HD + CON bonus, although it's still high.