Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Messer 01-03-07, 07:41 PM	Holy-Moley! I just picked these book up last week, and well, I'm fit-and-fiending to stop my current adventure, and pick up a new one using these two books in conjunction with the PHB! I'm fully impressed with how well these two books work together, how well they add options to the 'fighter' classes, and most importantly, how cool they are! What a great job wizards did with this one. (these two) The question better be asked. "have any of you done this? Did you encounter any problems? Are people having difficulty with the new books? How well does it fit in established games? Is confusion easily abaited? Was your pumpkin harvest profitable? Hows your new tooth-weasel? oh, I just can't wait to get them passed around with my gaming group, and see if they are also down for, down with, whatever, it!
Penchant_Conjurer 01-03-07, 08:29 PM	I love the ideas in the Incarnum book, but nobody in my group wants to jump on board. It's all very balanced. The system of D&D is designed so that if you want to get more powerful, you have to specialize in one area. Incarnum characters are not quite specialized in anything except versatility so in that case they are a little underpowered. All my players and co-DM's like power builds and specialized characters.
Messer 01-03-07, 08:42 PM	Thats really too bad. The idea of Incarnum to me is pretty sweet. I guess they are statistics manipulators, but, well, it all works super in my mind. I'm afraid that people in my game will feel the same way. (too much versatility, not enough power) ....
Board_Rider 01-03-07, 09:11 PM	There was an "Incarnum by the numbers" thread in the CO boards that truly showed both the versatility and power that Incarnum brings to the table. I like Incarnum and the Book of Nine Swords. I think an Incarnate/Warblade would make a great secondary tank. I played a Ranger/Incarnate that was perhaps the most flexible PC that I have gamed. I am glad you like the purchases and was not turned off by the fluff of Incarnum.
Messer 01-03-07, 09:14 PM	Ooooh, I'm gonna go Thread searching!
ressurrector 01-03-07, 09:21 PM	Experiences with Tome of Battle: Ban White Raven Tactics (it can get really silly when giving other players extra full turns) Warblades may seem like they're hard to hit and hard to kill (from wall of blades, and the Concentration check counters) but it seems worse than it is. Throwing things at them one after another will reduce their ability to respond. Crusader recovery mechanics are complicated, make sure everyone is aware of how the DM is ruling they work before play begins (thre are multiple interpretations) If you institute Tome of Battle make sure that NPCs and enemies get some benefit as well. (I just replace the Warrior class with Fighter, and Fighter class with Warblade for NPCs and enemies) Be prepared for high single-hit damage potential. (increase the HP of enemies if you want them to last multiple rounds)
Messer 01-03-07, 09:24 PM	Wow! thanks!
razorboy 01-03-07, 09:33 PM	I had a similar idea for a game (maybe a one-shot or a very short campaign) but I'm yet to convince my players of its viability. To me it seems that both books balance out one of the biggest complaints about D&D: that melee types are underpowered and casters are overpowered. Anyways, I'll go look for that thread on the OC board as well. Thanks for the tip.
Kaleroan 01-03-07, 09:56 PM	I also picked up Book of 9 Swords recently as well as MoI a few months beforehand. And I'm suitably impressed by how they can work stand alone or integrated. So far I haven't had any players try out Incarnum other than consider some of the feats (then again we are mid-campaign). Tome of Battle is wonderful in that allows alot more variety and can put a whole new spin on usually standard battles. Things I've noticed, are they mesh very well with mutliclassing and are very versatile. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574633 Incarnate by numbers http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775 Tome of Battle Q&A The pumpkin harvest went well, unfortunately my parasol has become infested with ferrets.
Judging Eagle 01-03-07, 10:50 PM	I don't know about the Bo9S, there's only one base class that players will play on a regular basis (warblade), and even then, the class is lackluster compared to other possible characters. The crusader has an odd mechanic that makes them actually a worse tank, since they have an unreliable method of obtaining their stances.. maneuvers etc.. Which is an other point of contention, they keep using all the terms interchangably and can't keep them straight. Swordsage is... hokay, except they take a full-round to 'refresh'. As for the Warblade. Look, for the lvl 20 character Dungeoun Delve, the Warblade 15/Master of the 9 5 was one of the melee PC characters for a reason/ it's a powerful and effective character, for melees. The problem is this though, once you get past lvl 6, all of those classes start to fall behind to a caster. They're all one-trick ponies, which makes me cry, b/c I think fighters should be more well rounded (ie. more skill points, better skill options at the very least; actually effective class features as well as class features that would be taken at lvl 20 would really be a start for a non-caster class).
ressurrector 01-04-07, 12:25 AM	I don't know about the Bo9S, there's only one base class that players will play on a regular basis (warblade), and even then, the class is lackluster compared to other possible characters.I've found quite the opposite, both in actual gameplay and character creation ideas. The crusader has an odd mechanic that makes them actually a worse tank, since they have an unreliable method of obtaining their stances.. maneuvers etc.. Which is an other point of contention, they keep using all the terms interchangably and can't keep them straight.Actually, the Crusaders have superior tank ability compared to any other base class I've seen. Delayed damage pool is quite nice when used correctly (like with stone power), and the fact that they don't ever have to spend actions refreshing lets them bust out maneuvers continuously. Swordsage is... hokay, except they take a full-round to 'refresh'.The idea of the swordsage is not a primary fighter or tank. With Adaptive Style feat to refresh and reset all maneuvers in one full-round, they have the most versatility. 6 available schools, more readied and known maneuvers. As for the Warblade. Look, for the lvl 20 character Dungeoun Delve, the Warblade 15/Master of the 9 5 was one of the melee PC characters for a reason/ it's a powerful and effective character, for melees.Warblades can't qualify for Master of the Nine without serious feat investment, as Mot9 requires 6 schools, and Warblades only have access to 4. The problem is this though, once you get past lvl 6, all of those classes start to fall behind to a caster. They're all one-trick ponies, which makes me cry, b/c I think fighters should be more well rounded (ie. more skill points, better skill options at the very least; actually effective class features as well as class features that would be taken at lvl 20 would really be a start for a non-caster class).All of the Tome of Battle base classes have more skills per level than the fighter, or any of the primary casters. With Adaptive Style and a good spread of maneuvers they are definitely not one trick ponies, unless you say that hitting someone with a melee weapon is a "one trick". I'd also contend that the additional class features given to all three base classes are quite useful. They also all gain more advanced special abilities at higher levels, up untill 20. Crusader 20 is just about the only way to play a Crusader, outside of a Ruby Knight Vindicator or Jade Phoenix Mage gish. [/rant] Sorry, it just annoys me when people trash the book after cursory glances.
Xaktsaroth 01-04-07, 01:04 AM	Incarnum is the sex and Book of 9 is quite awesome itself. Made a very powerful build combining the two, but I can't seem to find it. I search around for it. Throw an incarnum user at your players, then have them lust for the power of incarnum!
Sphyre 01-04-07, 01:11 AM	One thing I just noticed by virtue of this thread. I'm not so fond of Incarnum, but I'm thinking that an Evil Incarnate/ToB class gestalt could really tear things up in melee with that bonus to damage. If you institute Tome of Battle make sure that NPCs and enemies get some benefit as well. (I just replace the Warrior class with Fighter, and Fighter class with Warblade for NPCs and enemies) Yeah. In my campaign, I have some NPC warblades as a few of the "scrub" guards for the largest city on the plane. This is a good suggestion. Be prepared for high single-hit damage potential. (increase the HP of enemies if you want them to last multiple rounds) This is largely one of the problems where Melee hurt late game - the fact that their power (the extra attacks from high BAB) required a fullround action. You first had to spend a turn to get into position. While spell casting stayed at one standard action casting time. The ability to add some oomph back into standard action attacks really helps melee out. You don't need to adjust so much to the Bo9S, as opposed to understanding that now melee does not neccesarily have to suck and watch spell casters in the spot light all the time compared to them. Now everyone pulls their own weight, as opposed to only half the party.
Messer 01-04-07, 05:18 AM	Sweet, I'm currently attempting to convince the other guy here in town who DM's to try to get some 'team work' done on making things cool with this Book of 9 and Incarnum thing. I figure that if everyone is down then something should happen.... I figure it.... ohh.... incarnum, book of 9, how I yearn for thee~!
Messer 01-04-07, 05:23 AM	The pumpkin harvest went well, unfortunately my parasol has become infested with ferrets. Oh No!!! Good luck with that infestation, I'll see if I can't get some adventurers over there ASAP, or, perhaps the Parasol Police!
DracoPhoenix 01-04-07, 08:34 AM	I agree Incarnum is both fun and undervalued by some. (the thread btw is Incarnate by the numbers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574633)) I currently have a soulknife / illumine soul / lawful incarnate (staggered build order) in the works. By L12 I hope to have 3 / 5 / 4 respectively. Basically bound lightining gauntlets, incarnate avatar and crystal helm stacking with dual* undead bane, positive aligned, 3d8 mind strike & keen short swords. (I also have psi-weapon & plan on taking psi-meditation & bonus essentia) (* As a campaign reward @ L5, my DM granted each character ~1 feat. I asked to get the shape mind blade ability ahead of schedule and he said yes (I met the char level req and wont get it if I make SK L5)) I also have a rogue / totemist with shape meld(theif gloves) which is proving fun. I find Incarnum classes to be a either dip or full progression as levels 5-14 don't really offer a huge amount when multiclassing.
NoldorForce 01-04-07, 09:03 AM	I'd made a fairly nasty Evil Incarnate character (gestalted with, of all things, chameleon) for an arena. Definitely inspired by Incarnate by the Numbers. Look here (http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=10202&gn=DnD+3.5+(Gestalt):+Endless+War&threadnum=403&date=1166935916) for the details (she only got one fight to show off her abilities). All of those damage modifiers can add up to large results. Plus, being able to be incorporeal without casting any spells is just awesome.
crowclub 01-04-07, 12:56 PM	Unlike a new Feat, or Class even, from a Splat book, these two books require a lot of reading and work to incorporate into an on-going campaign. It's the same story with Psionics. I got the Psionics books but nobody else was interested. I did buy Incarnum but quickly sold it on when I realized the same would be true. I think a lot of the ideas are new and interesting but some people are too narrow minded to give them a chance, which is a shame.
Solik 01-04-07, 01:07 PM	Tome of Battle is fantastic. I absolutely love it. I haven't given Incarnum a chance yet. I was interested in truenamers, as I love the concept, but the level of powergaming required to make them useful at high levels is sort of frustrating.
blinks 01-04-07, 01:10 PM	"have any of you done this? Did you encounter any problems? On the book of nine: I'm a fan. The swordsage class is a compelling fighter/monk, exactly what I've been wanting in a class.
chitzk0i 01-04-07, 02:37 PM	The crusader has an odd mechanic that makes them actually a worse tank, since they have an unreliable method of obtaining their stances.. maneuvers etc.. Which is an other point of contention, they keep using all the terms interchangably and can't keep them straight. Crusaders only use the 'granted maneuvers' mechanic with their standard maneuvers, not stances. A stance is considered a maneuver only for prerequisites, nothing else.
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 01-04-07, 02:49 PM	Playing a Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade in my current campaign and it's working out swimmingly. What ToB adds to the game for fighter types is the possibility of versatility without being weakened. Now fighter types have access to teleport effects, healing and all manner of different status type effects with most of it being extraordinary rather than supernatural or spell-like. I'm not so familiar with Incarnum, but the Tome of Battle will change the scope of fighter type characters by enabling them to stay viable to much later levels. As for integration, it could be easily integrated but we were beginning a new campaign when I got the book, so that was sort of a mute point. I did toss in an NPC with some of the sublime way stuff and that worked out ok. Confusion wasn't too big a deal because I had poured through the book before playing my current character. We run a fairly open game with the DM trusting me to help him understand the system and me not taking advantage of his lack of understanding. YMMV.
DracoPhoenix 01-04-07, 03:05 PM	As to the questions raised, I'd like to add the below comments: How likely are the PCs to pointedly raise the question of where Incarnum came from? Are they going to conveniently assume it was always there and the fact it was never mentioned was because it was unimportant? Or are they going to be lil runts and ask very pointed questions on how it suddenly popped into existance with no cause etc? Make a hint sheet Make a note of key points on incarnum use (max essentia / char level, max melds etc). In the campaign I'm in with an Incarnate soulknife, I'd occasionally fumble on the rules and I at one point forgot the maximum essentia limit(luckily it didn't have a huge impact on the results). It wasn't intentional, but as I was the only one familiar with the Incarnum rules, it did mean that it would have gone unnoticed. The basics are easy enough, and I don't recall many stupid exceptions, so once you have those down, any mistakes can just be noted, swept under the carpet and continue with the correct rules without much problem (ymmv :)). It's not all or nothing There's nothing stopping you from introducing Incarnum a bit at a time - the PCs are the first to use it. Not as in introducing Incarnum to the campaign, but in terms of who actually has active Incarnum use (or just the Incarnate class). Then, once you're all happy with how it works, maybe the next undead they come across has Incarnum abilities. Then they start to find incarnum items etc. Read the section on meld shaping Make sure you fully understand the principles of Incarnum, how it operates, functional limits etc. There's a section (3, 4? in the book) that covers how melds work. The DM probably needs to pay most attention to this, followed by classes and used melds. Read the section on meld shaping I really mean it, all too often Psionics fell foul of the DM saying "OMG broken!" because s/he didn't read something properly (how augments work is a good example) and went off on a rant, banning all of psionics as a result. Familiarise yourself with the melds Not necessarily memorise each one. Just a general feel for the types and effects - totemist tend towards skill melds, most melds have +2 to skill or +1d6 dmg as its base & essentia effects. You occasionally have one you might panic on, (blink shirt perhaps), but it might not be as game breaking as you think. The book has a summary meld list for each class that would help this. Item Binding You don't have to worry too much about this at the start if you dont want too. It's not a big problem as most of the effects are inline with 1 essentia points worth of effect. +2 to a skill, +1 to a save / dmg etc.
invaladuser 01-04-07, 05:01 PM	huge fan of both books. Havent gotten a chance to use book of 9 though. I put in incarnum ever chance i get. Skarns rock. Good when you make them monks.
Messer 01-04-07, 06:38 PM	Sweet, Getting ideas already! These books are turning out to be cooler and cooler as I give them the constant 5 minute peruse. (I read in the Bathroom.... don't worry, I wash my hands) And thank you for all advice, I'm coming up with the how and why to introduce it to the game.... oooOOOHhhh... maybe I'm just a chunk-head, but what ymmv?
NoldorForce 01-04-07, 07:20 PM	Your Mileage May Vary