Book of Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book of Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dreaming_in_the_void
12-03-04, 11:04 PM There is a third party book of Feats. The title is just "Feats" and it has a red cover.

About half the feats in there are either far too tough, or so pathetically underpowered nobody would bother with them. Another quarter of the book deals with "infernal pact" type feats. The book was written for 3.0.

One player (occasionally a brilliant roleplayer, but more often a powergamer) thinks its unfair for me to disallow feats from a book. After all, one of the players bought it.

I told him that since I wasn't familiar with the book, and didn't have the inclination to read 150 pages of feats and make guesses as to which I'd allow and which I wouldn't for balance purposes, the answer was still no. I would prefer he stick to the 3.5 core books so I'll have some assurance of balance and have a reference both at the table or during my planning time in case a question comes up and I'm not sure how the feat would apply to a situation.

He claims it makes the game terrible and hinders his ability to create diverse and unique characters. The fact that he plays lightly armored fighters of questionable moral character every time with the same feats from the book notwithstanding (since I told him the light armor proficiency was fine) am I being heavy handed?

Would most DM's think I'm an ogre for keeping this out of game? Normally I think the DM has choice of material available, but I have to walk a thin line between actual player enjoyment (he's convince himself he's miserable without the "Complete(ly) broken feats book") and my own sanity/rules integrity.
Aucturos
12-03-04, 11:09 PM I've never heard of the book myself. Red cover, title is "Feats"? Who's it published by?

Either way, no, you're not an ogre.

If you think material is unfit for your campaign, you have the full right to deny that material.

If a player thinks you're being unfair, try to explain to them, as best you can, that you feel the feats in the book will not fit in with this campaign, and that you think that some of them may unbalanced.

If he gets heated up over this, calmly tell him that perhaps during the next campaign, after you've had more time to look over the feats, and other such things, maybe you'll allow them then, but that this reaction of his only puts you off from their use, especially now.
Aeromus
12-03-04, 11:13 PM Tell him to let you borrow the feats book.

Tell him to DM a game.

Exploit every feat you as a DM know is over powered.

Rinse and repeat until he says the magic words. "Hey wanna dm a core rules only game bro?"
Judging Eagle
12-03-04, 11:38 PM Perhaps you can review the feats that he wants in specific and find out his character build plan.

If you know what he wants and where he's taking his character you won't have to look at the whole book. In fact have him copy out the feats he wants to use out of the book (or photocopy it) and give them to you so you have a copy of your own.

Personally, I'll let a player build almost any character. So long as they can make me a copy of the rules for the specific non-core PrCs, Feats, spells and items that they want to get.

If I agree on the concept then all it takes is RPing to get into the appropriate PrC (PrCs should be RP'd into, not simply taken b/c you meet the pre-reqs).
krichaiushii
12-03-04, 11:52 PM You could always build obscene NPCs who abuse the worst of the feats in the book and throw them at the PCs; after all, what's good for the PCs is good for NPCs.

Not the best plan, but an option.

Overall, its the DM's option to allow anything beyond the core three books, and even some of that might not be allowed (double weapons, for example).

A policy you might consider is that if any player wants to use something from a book you do not own is to buy you a copy of the book, from which you will decide if something is worthwhile. Not only does this cut down on player requests, it can improve your personal gaming library. Again, not the best option.

The book itself sounds like something from Mongoose or AEG. Let's see...

No dice... maybe someone else?
funnymanmike
12-03-04, 11:57 PM core books for me. show me what you want from another book and how it suits your charater for RP purposes.

your not being tough, your being the DM
Antigone
12-04-04, 12:14 AM You're not being an ogre, but I do sympathize with your dilemma. I recently had a similar situation myself. Wrote up all my little house rules, first and and foremost of which was "You make select anything out of the following books and no others." So one of the players says, "Oh, I absolutely need this other feat out of this book I know you don't want to use, or for that matter, own. Can I have it?" So I said no, but it turned into this whole deal and I felt like a jerk. And now he's not playing with us anymore. Claims it's because of work but I don't believe him.

Oh well. I've still got four players, and I know where to get more.

And I really loathed the feat he wanted.
tec-9-7
12-04-04, 12:23 AM Don't feel like a jerk Antigone. Gaming is a delicate balance - the players need to have a good time, but so does the DM - I've got my own personal ****-list of stuff I don't allow - if that really grates a player the wrong way, oh well. If I'm going to put forth the effort to run a game, I damn well want to have a good time too. I see no problem in disallowing any 3rd party material. Next game I run, I won't allow anything from a Complete XXXXXXX even tho they are WotC published, as I don't own those books, and don't really feel like buying them.

I'll stop now before I go on a rant about whiney players who "have to have X" for their character concept...
trapspringer
12-04-04, 12:54 AM I disagree. Gaming isn't delicate. You have to actively smash and burry your players hopes and dreams.

Seriously, you should ban all non-WOTC material. These guys really do know what they are doing... despite statements to the contrary.

You will find the power level of most unofficial products is significantly higher.
tec-9-7
12-04-04, 12:58 AM Seriously, you should ban all non-WOTC material. These guys really do know what they are doing... despite statements to the contrary.

You will find the power level of most unofficial products is significantly higher.
I find 3rd party stuff all over the map in terms of worth. Personally I love Kenzer's Kalamar material and generally have no problem w/ any of it - Mongoose can be hit or miss - Necromancer is generally good - but that is a discussion for another thread.
JabberWocky
12-04-04, 01:28 AM Tell any of your players who ask about this book that the only one you'll allow is "Monkey Grabs the Peach."
Ratheus
12-04-04, 02:32 AM A simple little rule I use. If you get to use it, I get to use it (books, that is). Works both ways - fight fire with fire!

And yes, WotC only here.
PaladinSix
12-04-04, 04:47 AM I actually use some of the stuff from the book in question, and yes, it is written by Alderac Entertainment Group (AEG). Before I even showed it to my players, I went through it and crossed out perhaps 60% of the feats, including all of the Infernal ones. Then I modified many of the remaining 40% to make them more compatible and less overpowering. While I wouldn't recommend using them all as written, like most 3rd party stuff, it is useful for ideas and inspiration. In the end, just because someone wrote it down and published it doesn't mean that it is automatically allowed in my game. And 3rd party products are not the only ones that are silly and poorly thought through. Everything is written to sell, rather than to actually benefit the game. Just take a close look at Ebberon.

By the way, I reserve "Monkey Grabs the Peach" for particularly nasty NPCs.
Board_Rider
12-04-04, 11:49 AM You know Dreaming I don't think that you were in the wrong at all. I like what Aeromus wrote in getting him back by having to DM with you in his shoes kinda thing.
As a DM I think you have to be a little heavy handed at times to keep a balance in your game and let the players know who's game it is.
As a player I would hate it but if you say this guy played the same thing all of the time...he'll get over it.
This (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/) is a good place to go. Look for the FEATS tag under character creation. You can Copy and Paste these to a word document and, if you have the resources, print these feats out for your players. I keep mine on the laptop. Some FEATS are a tad off the wall but thats up to you.
Good Luck.
Dreaming_in_the_void
12-04-04, 12:23 PM Thanks all. I'm going to stick to my guns. And if he walks, occasional brilliance or no, things may be better afterwards. Antigone has the right idea, still have the other players

The turnabout rule does excite an ironic nastiness deep within, though I'm not sure I want things to become competitive between the players and the DM. In a way, if I hammer down the players with a feat I would have otherwise disallowed, he'll just complain that much more: "See, I told you we needed these feats! The ones in the PHB can't stand up." Yes, I understand they wouldn't "need" the feats if I wasn't using them (which they still wouldn't need I suppose, they can't take monster feats from the MM either, there is no real equality between Player and DM sources), but that's beside the point; such is the untrained human mind.

If he persists, I'll hand him the DMG and take Aeromus' advice.

As for monkey grabs the peach, isn't that on the last page with Elven Bloodline: Keebler?

Thanks for the link Board!
The Shaman
12-04-04, 12:36 PM I'm going to stick to my guns.
Good call.
The turnabout rule does excite an ironic nastiness deep within, though I'm not sure I want things to become competitive between the players and the DM.
Another good call.

I'm not sure why this happens, because it makes no sense to me at all: it seems that some players believe that if they totally optimize their characters with the most o'er-the-top feat, PrC, or whatever, that somehow that will hamstring the GM from creating a challenge that the player can't beat.

Given that the GM could drop a great wyrm on the adventurers' collective heads at any time, it ultimately doesn't matter what feats or classes the players choose - they still have to trust the GM to offer appropriate challenges, and the GM needs to resist the temptation to bombard the party with ten rounds of super-sized meteor swarms.

(Unless they really, really deserve it, of course.)

;)
Omeg
12-04-04, 12:42 PM I agree, myself I don't allow any non-wizards material, mainly because I don't feel like reading it all and more because I don't have the illusion that I understand game balance better then the entire wizards staff combined.

I do hold the oppinion that DnD should be played for fun however, and if one of my players wishes to create a certain effect, I might design rules or feats to fit them, as long as they agree that if they turn out to be overpwered that I remove them from the game. It's happened once or twice and have found that players usually agree with me that it overpowers them and is taking some of the fun and hardship from the game, after which we adapt it slightly to be more fun. Though this happens when people simply do a very good job at min/maxing a character in which case we have so far also always managed to work it out.

If someone wanted a particular feat from a certain source I'd always be willing to take a look at it though, but I haven't encountered it so far, there's a lot of wizards material to go by and we're not done exploiting all of that yet.

Omeg :mage:
Omeg
12-04-04, 12:45 PM **Doublepost** (sorry, I beg for forgiveness!)

I'm not sure why this happens, because it makes no sense to me at all: it seems that some players believe that if they totally optimize their characters with the most o'er-the-top feat, PrC, or whatever, that somehow that will hamstring the GM from creating a challenge that the player can't beat.

I think it's more about players wanting to outshine the rest of the party, I know that's why I game when I am one of the players, but it's much more rewarding when you pull of some great feat of power and magnificence if you do it legally then with power feats, or so I believe anyway.

Omeg :mage:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dreaming_in_the_void 12-03-04, 11:04 PM	There is a third party book of Feats. The title is just "Feats" and it has a red cover. About half the feats in there are either far too tough, or so pathetically underpowered nobody would bother with them. Another quarter of the book deals with "infernal pact" type feats. The book was written for 3.0. One player (occasionally a brilliant roleplayer, but more often a powergamer) thinks its unfair for me to disallow feats from a book. After all, one of the players bought it. I told him that since I wasn't familiar with the book, and didn't have the inclination to read 150 pages of feats and make guesses as to which I'd allow and which I wouldn't for balance purposes, the answer was still no. I would prefer he stick to the 3.5 core books so I'll have some assurance of balance and have a reference both at the table or during my planning time in case a question comes up and I'm not sure how the feat would apply to a situation. He claims it makes the game terrible and hinders his ability to create diverse and unique characters. The fact that he plays lightly armored fighters of questionable moral character every time with the same feats from the book notwithstanding (since I told him the light armor proficiency was fine) am I being heavy handed? Would most DM's think I'm an ogre for keeping this out of game? Normally I think the DM has choice of material available, but I have to walk a thin line between actual player enjoyment (he's convince himself he's miserable without the "Complete(ly) broken feats book") and my own sanity/rules integrity.
Aucturos 12-03-04, 11:09 PM	I've never heard of the book myself. Red cover, title is "Feats"? Who's it published by? Either way, no, you're not an ogre. If you think material is unfit for your campaign, you have the full right to deny that material. If a player thinks you're being unfair, try to explain to them, as best you can, that you feel the feats in the book will not fit in with this campaign, and that you think that some of them may unbalanced. If he gets heated up over this, calmly tell him that perhaps during the next campaign, after you've had more time to look over the feats, and other such things, maybe you'll allow them then, but that this reaction of his only puts you off from their use, especially now.
Aeromus 12-03-04, 11:13 PM	Tell him to let you borrow the feats book. Tell him to DM a game. Exploit every feat you as a DM know is over powered. Rinse and repeat until he says the magic words. "Hey wanna dm a core rules only game bro?"
Judging Eagle 12-03-04, 11:38 PM	Perhaps you can review the feats that he wants in specific and find out his character build plan. If you know what he wants and where he's taking his character you won't have to look at the whole book. In fact have him copy out the feats he wants to use out of the book (or photocopy it) and give them to you so you have a copy of your own. Personally, I'll let a player build almost any character. So long as they can make me a copy of the rules for the specific non-core PrCs, Feats, spells and items that they want to get. If I agree on the concept then all it takes is RPing to get into the appropriate PrC (PrCs should be RP'd into, not simply taken b/c you meet the pre-reqs).
krichaiushii 12-03-04, 11:52 PM	You could always build obscene NPCs who abuse the worst of the feats in the book and throw them at the PCs; after all, what's good for the PCs is good for NPCs. Not the best plan, but an option. Overall, its the DM's option to allow anything beyond the core three books, and even some of that might not be allowed (double weapons, for example). A policy you might consider is that if any player wants to use something from a book you do not own is to buy you a copy of the book, from which you will decide if something is worthwhile. Not only does this cut down on player requests, it can improve your personal gaming library. Again, not the best option. The book itself sounds like something from Mongoose or AEG. Let's see... No dice... maybe someone else?
funnymanmike 12-03-04, 11:57 PM	core books for me. show me what you want from another book and how it suits your charater for RP purposes. your not being tough, your being the DM
Antigone 12-04-04, 12:14 AM	You're not being an ogre, but I do sympathize with your dilemma. I recently had a similar situation myself. Wrote up all my little house rules, first and and foremost of which was "You make select anything out of the following books and no others." So one of the players says, "Oh, I absolutely need this other feat out of this book I know you don't want to use, or for that matter, own. Can I have it?" So I said no, but it turned into this whole deal and I felt like a jerk. And now he's not playing with us anymore. Claims it's because of work but I don't believe him. Oh well. I've still got four players, and I know where to get more. And I really loathed the feat he wanted.
tec-9-7 12-04-04, 12:23 AM	Don't feel like a jerk Antigone. Gaming is a delicate balance - the players need to have a good time, but so does the DM - I've got my own personal ****-list of stuff I don't allow - if that really grates a player the wrong way, oh well. If I'm going to put forth the effort to run a game, I damn well want to have a good time too. I see no problem in disallowing any 3rd party material. Next game I run, I won't allow anything from a Complete XXXXXXX even tho they are WotC published, as I don't own those books, and don't really feel like buying them. I'll stop now before I go on a rant about whiney players who "have to have X" for their character concept...
trapspringer 12-04-04, 12:54 AM	I disagree. Gaming isn't delicate. You have to actively smash and burry your players hopes and dreams. Seriously, you should ban all non-WOTC material. These guys really do know what they are doing... despite statements to the contrary. You will find the power level of most unofficial products is significantly higher.
tec-9-7 12-04-04, 12:58 AM	Seriously, you should ban all non-WOTC material. These guys really do know what they are doing... despite statements to the contrary. You will find the power level of most unofficial products is significantly higher. I find 3rd party stuff all over the map in terms of worth. Personally I love Kenzer's Kalamar material and generally have no problem w/ any of it - Mongoose can be hit or miss - Necromancer is generally good - but that is a discussion for another thread.
JabberWocky 12-04-04, 01:28 AM	Tell any of your players who ask about this book that the only one you'll allow is "Monkey Grabs the Peach."
Ratheus 12-04-04, 02:32 AM	A simple little rule I use. If you get to use it, I get to use it (books, that is). Works both ways - fight fire with fire! And yes, WotC only here.
PaladinSix 12-04-04, 04:47 AM	I actually use some of the stuff from the book in question, and yes, it is written by Alderac Entertainment Group (AEG). Before I even showed it to my players, I went through it and crossed out perhaps 60% of the feats, including all of the Infernal ones. Then I modified many of the remaining 40% to make them more compatible and less overpowering. While I wouldn't recommend using them all as written, like most 3rd party stuff, it is useful for ideas and inspiration. In the end, just because someone wrote it down and published it doesn't mean that it is automatically allowed in my game. And 3rd party products are not the only ones that are silly and poorly thought through. Everything is written to sell, rather than to actually benefit the game. Just take a close look at Ebberon. By the way, I reserve "Monkey Grabs the Peach" for particularly nasty NPCs.
Board_Rider 12-04-04, 11:49 AM	You know Dreaming I don't think that you were in the wrong at all. I like what Aeromus wrote in getting him back by having to DM with you in his shoes kinda thing. As a DM I think you have to be a little heavy handed at times to keep a balance in your game and let the players know who's game it is. As a player I would hate it but if you say this guy played the same thing all of the time...he'll get over it. This (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/) is a good place to go. Look for the FEATS tag under character creation. You can Copy and Paste these to a word document and, if you have the resources, print these feats out for your players. I keep mine on the laptop. Some FEATS are a tad off the wall but thats up to you. Good Luck.
Dreaming_in_the_void 12-04-04, 12:23 PM	Thanks all. I'm going to stick to my guns. And if he walks, occasional brilliance or no, things may be better afterwards. Antigone has the right idea, still have the other players The turnabout rule does excite an ironic nastiness deep within, though I'm not sure I want things to become competitive between the players and the DM. In a way, if I hammer down the players with a feat I would have otherwise disallowed, he'll just complain that much more: "See, I told you we needed these feats! The ones in the PHB can't stand up." Yes, I understand they wouldn't "need" the feats if I wasn't using them (which they still wouldn't need I suppose, they can't take monster feats from the MM either, there is no real equality between Player and DM sources), but that's beside the point; such is the untrained human mind. If he persists, I'll hand him the DMG and take Aeromus' advice. As for monkey grabs the peach, isn't that on the last page with Elven Bloodline: Keebler? Thanks for the link Board!
The Shaman 12-04-04, 12:36 PM	I'm going to stick to my guns. Good call. The turnabout rule does excite an ironic nastiness deep within, though I'm not sure I want things to become competitive between the players and the DM. Another good call. I'm not sure why this happens, because it makes no sense to me at all: it seems that some players believe that if they totally optimize their characters with the most o'er-the-top feat, PrC, or whatever, that somehow that will hamstring the GM from creating a challenge that the player can't beat. Given that the GM could drop a great wyrm on the adventurers' collective heads at any time, it ultimately doesn't matter what feats or classes the players choose - they still have to trust the GM to offer appropriate challenges, and the GM needs to resist the temptation to bombard the party with ten rounds of super-sized meteor swarms. (Unless they really, really deserve it, of course.) ;)
Omeg 12-04-04, 12:42 PM	I agree, myself I don't allow any non-wizards material, mainly because I don't feel like reading it all and more because I don't have the illusion that I understand game balance better then the entire wizards staff combined. I do hold the oppinion that DnD should be played for fun however, and if one of my players wishes to create a certain effect, I might design rules or feats to fit them, as long as they agree that if they turn out to be overpwered that I remove them from the game. It's happened once or twice and have found that players usually agree with me that it overpowers them and is taking some of the fun and hardship from the game, after which we adapt it slightly to be more fun. Though this happens when people simply do a very good job at min/maxing a character in which case we have so far also always managed to work it out. If someone wanted a particular feat from a certain source I'd always be willing to take a look at it though, but I haven't encountered it so far, there's a lot of wizards material to go by and we're not done exploiting all of that yet. Omeg :mage:
Omeg 12-04-04, 12:45 PM	Doublepost (sorry, I beg for forgiveness!) I'm not sure why this happens, because it makes no sense to me at all: it seems that some players believe that if they totally optimize their characters with the most o'er-the-top feat, PrC, or whatever, that somehow that will hamstring the GM from creating a challenge that the player can't beat. I think it's more about players wanting to outshine the rest of the party, I know that's why I game when I am one of the players, but it's much more rewarding when you pull of some great feat of power and magnificence if you do it legally then with power feats, or so I believe anyway. Omeg :mage: