Book of Nine Swords dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book of Nine Swords dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
milkjug
09-14-06, 01:43 AM We just started a new session of D&D and I allowed everyone to enter as a 4th level character. One of the players decided to be a Sword Sage from the Book of Nine Swords (which I will just refer to as BONS.) I think it may have been a mistake because neither of us had fully read and understood the character, but the Sword Sage seems a little to powerful for me. Now I understand that they don’t have the feats that fighters do, but I think that their maneuvers and stances are slightly overpowered… This is why.

Lets say that during a battle the Sword Sage uses all of his maneuvers. Yes, the maneuvers are powerful, but that doesn’t bother me. Bring it on! What bothers me is that after the battle he can meditate for 5 minutes and regain all his maneuvers and reuse them later in the day. To me that seems overpowered. That is the equivalent of the sorcerer using all his spells after a fight, going and sitting down for 5 minutes and then BAM, all his spells are back. I don’t see the balance. Plus there is a feat that is available to them at later levels that lets them take a standard action and they instantly regain all their maneuvers without meditating.

I think it would be more balanced is if their maneuvers were like a sorcerer’s spells. Once you’ve used them, you have to wait until tomorrow to get’em back. I have a wizard in my group and I know he would like to keep re-using his spells.

What does everyone else think? I don’t even have a copy of BONS, I went to the book store today but they were out so I couldn’t study it. Does anyone else have any opinions? And I don’t know how the stances work either. I’ll just have to get my hands on the book.
Salla
09-14-06, 01:44 AM It's not like the sorcerer instantly recovering his spells, because the maneuvers aren't in the same class as spells.
milkjug
09-14-06, 01:53 AM It's not like the sorcerer instantly recovering his spells, because the maneuvers aren't in the same class as spells.

I get that they're not the same class as spells, but they are "spell like." So do you think that it is fine to let them regain all their manuevers several times over? (just wondering) Because those manuevers are pretty devistating. Remember, I am all about the power of the character, but using it multiple times a day seems a little too much.
Salla
09-14-06, 01:57 AM I get that they're not the same class as spells, but they are "spell like." So do you think that it is fine to let them regain all their manuevers several times over? (just wondering) Because those manuevers are pretty devistating. Remember, I am all about the power of the character, but using it multiple times a day seems a little too much.

Let me clarify ... sorry, I used a poor choice of words.

Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as spells.
KurenaiYami
09-14-06, 01:58 AM I believe you misread it. The maneuvers are readied at the beginning of EVERY ENCOUNTER. He does not even need to meditate for five minutes.

Edit: Oh, yeah. He can also spend a full-round action DURING combat to recover all expended maneuvers from that encounter. So essentially he can use them an infinite number of times within the same encounter.
KurenaiYami
09-14-06, 01:58 AM Let me clarify ... sorry, I used a poor choice of words.

Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as spells.
Seconded.

EDIT:
What does everyone else think? I don’t even have a copy of BONS, I went to the book store today but they were out so I couldn’t study it. Does anyone else have any opinions? And I don’t know how the stances work either. I’ll just have to get my hands on the book.

The things you can do with the maneuvers really aren't that earth-shattering. The higher in level you get, the more you start to realize how harmless it is. The main downside is when you use a strike, you give up your multiple attacks for that round, so damage isn't going to be an issue.

I like the Tome of Battle, really. It just adds flavor and gives fighters a bit of spice they were lacking before.

DOUBLE EDIT:

Another thing worth mentioning is that the Swordsage is the most focused on maneuvers. He isn't as martially focused as the other two base classes, with his d8 hit die and Monk-level BAB progression.
Lawen
09-14-06, 02:04 AM I would advise you to get the book as soon as possible. If the maneuvers seem more powerful than a fighter of the equivilent level, that's on purpose. The main purpose of The Book of Nine Swords was to make melee classes more versitale and powerful. Regular fighter sucks when compared to literally every other class. It's just a fact. Trust me on that one.

On the issue of gaining maneuvers back, I know it seems like they will be overpowering, but try it out. Play with them in a few combats, and I think you'll find that they are balanced. It has already been pointed out, but I'll say it again, maneuvers arn't anywhere near as powerful as spells as the equivilent level.

Get the book. It rocks. It is what melee classes have been so badly in need of for a long time.
Dolomite
09-14-06, 02:08 AM A lot of Manuvers are good but are burned up so fast that you need to be able to get them back after every encounter. They may be kinda like spells but in reality they are weaker in application for certain situations, and they are balanced so that they really dont overwhelm the game.

I would say you and the player should hold off on the book till you both read it over and understand what the book entails. It is a more complicated system that looks overpowering but it has checks and balances in it.
milkjug
09-14-06, 02:14 AM "By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall the Book of Nine Swords be allowed." This has been an eye opener. Already, I have learned things I didn't know. I'll take the advice and just play it out. Thanks for the comments...
Wizards_White_Knight
09-14-06, 02:48 AM I love the swordsage. I was instantly attracted to him when I bought the book. The warblade looked decent, and I was very unimpressed with the Crusader.

However, consider the co-relation between a sorcer and a swordsage. Sure, a sowrdsage hs his manuvers, and he can run around the battlefielf and dish out large amount of damage to a guy...

The sorcerer can stand in one spot and dish out a large amount of damage to a lot of guys. The sorcerer's save DC's are all dependant on Charisma, and thats his only score that he needs to keep high. The sword sage has to split his scores across 4 stats, 5 if you want to count strength (I think his insightful strike ability with wisdom negates the need for a high strength) to survive the melee aspect, where as the sorcerer can hide behind the front liners and not have to worry about a high con.

And also, you compare the swordsage to a fighter of the same level. I think you need to look at the rogue more than the fighter. The swordsage's techniques available let him play out more the rogue niche than the frontline fighter. Considering the rogues sneak attack dice, the swordsage is kinda on par with damage output.

And to whoever said he can take a full round action in battle to ready all his manuevers, thats the Warblade. The Swordsage can only select one to rememorize. And the Adaptive Style feat lets him change his readied manuvers as a full round action. it doesnt "rememorize" the already used ones.

I feel the swordsage is well balanced...as is the Warblade. But to correct my initial thoughts, the Crusader is probaboy the strongest class out of the three, and borders on broken.

When I picked up my copy of Nine Swords, I also grabbed the colossal red dragon mini. Thinking it would be cool to have our groups first ever epic battle, I made a gestalt Knight/Crusader (I tend to enjoy making gestalt characters with names that mesh well) level 24 and just had a trial run, one on one with the dragon.

The techniques available to the Crusader are insane strong. Namely, White Raven. It's 9th level strike allowed me to score a 1st round 1 hit KO due to massive damage. ((Mind you, it was a critical hit)). If he had teammates with him, the added effect of his 9th level strike would have probably been enough to reduce him to 1/3 of his HP. And with the rotating manuvers readied the crusader has, he can use his strikes a lot more often...

Long story short...embrace the swordsage. Be proud of the swordsage. Fear the Crusader.

WWK
milkjug
09-14-06, 02:56 AM [QUOTE=
And to whoever said he can take a full round action in battle to ready all his manuevers, thats the Warblade. The Swordsage can only select one to rememorize. And the Adaptive Style feat lets him change his readied manuvers as a full round action. it doesnt "rememorize" the already used ones.

WWK[/QUOTE]

Good stuff for my player to know. I definately need to read this book and understand it.
Wizards_White_Knight
09-14-06, 03:05 AM Yeah...but having said that, you can still youse the adaptive style feat to get access to manuvers you have already used.

Think of his "Manuevers readied" as available spell slots.

Assume he has 7. He uses 4 of them, all his memorized shadow hand manuvers. With his last 3, they are desert wind strikes, that all deal fire damage. Let's assume you are fighting a fire immune monster, so he wants his shadow hand strike that deals cold damge. He can use the full round action to change all 7 slots, changing the manuvers memorized. But 4 of those slots are still unable to be used. He still has 3 readied, but they can be any that he knows.

So in essence, he can still gain access to particular manuvers if he needs them, but not the full range of 7.

WWK
Lawen
09-14-06, 03:28 AM Ah actually, I'll have to disagree with this assessment. If you would direct your attention to the Character Optimization boards, they have a thread where the have compiled all the responses from Customer Service with regards to the Book of Nine Swords.

Check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9806768&postcount=1) and then look under the feats section for Adaptive Style.

The consistant reply from Custserv is that Adaptive style does in fact give you all your maneuvers back. It may seem good, but the Sword sage has the weakest recovery mechanic of all three base classes. This feat basically puts them on par with the rest of the classes, and even if it is a little better than the other ones, a Sword Sage relies on his maneuvers to a much greater degree than any other class, so it balances out.

I know the Char Optimization board sometimes gets a bad rap over here, but they know their stuff.
KmartKommando
09-14-06, 03:35 AM Actually, refreshing them with Adaptive Style readies the spent maneuvers again.

It's too late for me to spend the time searching for the Tome of Battle FAQ link, but it's around here somewhere.
Lawen
09-14-06, 03:39 AM Ha, beat you to it :P
ressurrector
09-14-06, 06:00 AM Oh, just FYI, the Warblade can regain his as a Swift action, followed by a standard action attack, or a standard action to do nothing.

This means that even with adaptive style, Swordsages have the weakest recovery mechanic.

Also, it's good to note that while some of the maneuvers/boosts have very nice benefits (DR 5/adamantine, 1d6 +1/initiator level) these last for only a single round, so power-wise a simple bull's streingth is far beyond them.

Personally I like the book very much as well, and immediately allowed it into my campaign the session after I bought it.
scout989
09-14-06, 08:21 AM @WWK:

Actually, a warblade fets access to White Raven maneuvers as well, so the example given here doesn't really help a lot. The only discipline that Crusaders alone get is Devoted Spirit. Now, DS is a very useful discipline, but it also tends to be more situational than some of the others, due to alignment restrictions on when stuff works. A warblade who used the 9th-level Iron Heart maneuver and scored a crit would have done far more damage than either a warblade or a crusader using White Raven anything. So, I think that the martial adept classes are balanced.
Midnight_v
09-14-06, 08:43 AM Oh, just FYI, the Warblade can regain his as a Swift action, followed by a standard action attack, or a standard action to do nothing.

This means that even with adaptive style, Swordsages have the weakest recovery mechanic.

Also, it's good to note that while some of the maneuvers/boosts have very nice benefits (DR 5/adamantine, 1d6 +1/initiator level) these last for only a single round, so power-wise a simple bull's streingth is far beyond them.

Personally I like the book very much as well, and immediately allowed it into my campaign the session after I bought it.

Actually they can take a full attack in the same round they regain their manuevers not just a standard attack. It was the ask wizards questions of the from page 9-13-06 (i.e. yesterday.) or the day before...
ressurrector
09-14-06, 05:41 PM Actually they can take a full attack in the same round they regain their manuevers not just a standard attack. It was the ask wizards questions of the from page 9-13-06 (i.e. yesterday.) or the day before...
Seriously? Can you link it?

Edit: I looked through the Ask Wizards questions/answers, it wasn't in there.
I would appreciate a link, if you can find it again.
Miratos
09-14-06, 06:29 PM This is the information you want regarding the Warblade and his attack after his maneuver recovery:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9938769&postcount=303

Bear in mind, as good as it may be to refresh your maneuvers after you use them as a swift action -- boosts and counters also use swift actions and defense is an important tactical decision in many combats, so using it and then not being able to use a counter could end up meaning you get skewered :)
Wizards_White_Knight
09-14-06, 06:36 PM @ Scout,

Your point is valid as to warblades access to White Raven, and I didnt make myself too clear in my previous post.

I really dont like the warblade at all. His class abilites promote MAD, and are all very situational, as opposed to the Swashbuckler for example. Compared to the Crusader whose class abilites function very much like DR, and bonuses to Attk and Dmg for one round.

I also feel that Devoted Spirit is a lot more powerful than Iron Heart, simply as a matter of personal preference, I admit. Devoted Spirit grants a lot more play options than Iron Heart, which basically is "Hit more, Hit harder".

Of course, these are all my personal opinions, and I guess I was wrong with my assessment of the Adaptive Style Feat.

WWK
chava
09-14-06, 07:40 PM And to whoever said he can take a full round action in battle to ready all his manuevers, thats the Warblade. The Swordsage can only select one to rememorize. And the Adaptive Style feat lets him change his readied manuvers as a full round action. it doesnt "rememorize" the already used ones.

Actually the Warblade can ready (however many he can HAVE readied) as a swift action, provided that he either do nothing in that round or makes a standard melee attack action.

I feel the swordsage is well balanced...as is the Warblade. But to correct my initial thoughts, the Crusader is probaboy the strongest class out of the three, and borders on broken.

I agree about the swordsage and warblade, don't think that crusader is broken.
DMK69
10-04-06, 01:57 PM But to correct my initial thoughts, the Crusader is probably the strongest class out of the three, and borders on broken.

I'm kind of the opinion that it might be bordering on or is broken also. I started my characters off at 3rd level.

First off....The Crusader, in combat, can use his Maneuvers over and over and over in a single encounter. So, he starts with 2 cards out of 5 (that he has memorized) and then he gets a new card, out of the 3 that are set aside, every round whether he uses the other cards or not. Lets say he does NOT use them for a few rounds and he now has all 5 cards. From what I understand...this is what happens after he has all 5 cards (please correct me if I read wrong).... He uses one of the cards on his 4th round. It goes to back into the 'set aside' stack. His next round, he gets that card right back. But can only use it the next round. So, he can basically use....lets say FOEHAMMER every other round after he has all 5 cards in his hand. Now imagine he has two of these kind of cards! FOEHAMMER & MOUNTAIN HAMMER!

Let's examine this FOEHAMMER strike for a moment. It has no prerequisites besides the fact that you need to be 3rd or 4th level and a Crusader in this case. If the character hits, he does additional 2d6 damage on top of his regular damage. And I just hope he does not roll a crit...that would be his regular damage x3 (Warhammer) plus 2d6. Oh, and my favorite part of this maneuver....it bypasses DR. This is the part that really makes me feel that it is broken. How do you bypass DR from hitting them harder????

So....what I feel is a little powerful about the Crusader...
1. Can continually use these maneuvers over and over again in a single combat.
2. Extra damage of 2d6 at 3rd and 4th level seems a bit extreme on top of a fighter’s regular damage. Especially when they have Str of 18. And lets hope the regular damage isn't a crit! (Warhammer X3)
3. Oh, and bypasses any DR.

This 3rd level Crusader basically took out a CR4 in a couple of rounds by himself because he had two maneuvers (FOEHAMMER & MOUNTAIN HAMMER) that did an additional 2d6 damage on top of his regular damage that both bypass DR & Mountain Hammer bypasses hardness as well.

Did I get all the above right? Does that seem a bit powerful if not broken? :eek:

Guess I'll have to bump the CRs up for them!! :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
milkjug 09-14-06, 01:43 AM	We just started a new session of D&D and I allowed everyone to enter as a 4th level character. One of the players decided to be a Sword Sage from the Book of Nine Swords (which I will just refer to as BONS.) I think it may have been a mistake because neither of us had fully read and understood the character, but the Sword Sage seems a little to powerful for me. Now I understand that they don’t have the feats that fighters do, but I think that their maneuvers and stances are slightly overpowered… This is why. Lets say that during a battle the Sword Sage uses all of his maneuvers. Yes, the maneuvers are powerful, but that doesn’t bother me. Bring it on! What bothers me is that after the battle he can meditate for 5 minutes and regain all his maneuvers and reuse them later in the day. To me that seems overpowered. That is the equivalent of the sorcerer using all his spells after a fight, going and sitting down for 5 minutes and then BAM, all his spells are back. I don’t see the balance. Plus there is a feat that is available to them at later levels that lets them take a standard action and they instantly regain all their maneuvers without meditating. I think it would be more balanced is if their maneuvers were like a sorcerer’s spells. Once you’ve used them, you have to wait until tomorrow to get’em back. I have a wizard in my group and I know he would like to keep re-using his spells. What does everyone else think? I don’t even have a copy of BONS, I went to the book store today but they were out so I couldn’t study it. Does anyone else have any opinions? And I don’t know how the stances work either. I’ll just have to get my hands on the book.
Salla 09-14-06, 01:44 AM	It's not like the sorcerer instantly recovering his spells, because the maneuvers aren't in the same class as spells.
milkjug 09-14-06, 01:53 AM	It's not like the sorcerer instantly recovering his spells, because the maneuvers aren't in the same class as spells. I get that they're not the same class as spells, but they are "spell like." So do you think that it is fine to let them regain all their manuevers several times over? (just wondering) Because those manuevers are pretty devistating. Remember, I am all about the power of the character, but using it multiple times a day seems a little too much.
Salla 09-14-06, 01:57 AM	I get that they're not the same class as spells, but they are "spell like." So do you think that it is fine to let them regain all their manuevers several times over? (just wondering) Because those manuevers are pretty devistating. Remember, I am all about the power of the character, but using it multiple times a day seems a little too much. Let me clarify ... sorry, I used a poor choice of words. Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as spells.
KurenaiYami 09-14-06, 01:58 AM	I believe you misread it. The maneuvers are readied at the beginning of EVERY ENCOUNTER. He does not even need to meditate for five minutes. Edit: Oh, yeah. He can also spend a full-round action DURING combat to recover all expended maneuvers from that encounter. So essentially he can use them an infinite number of times within the same encounter.
KurenaiYami 09-14-06, 01:58 AM	Let me clarify ... sorry, I used a poor choice of words. Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as spells. Seconded. EDIT: What does everyone else think? I don’t even have a copy of BONS, I went to the book store today but they were out so I couldn’t study it. Does anyone else have any opinions? And I don’t know how the stances work either. I’ll just have to get my hands on the book. The things you can do with the maneuvers really aren't that earth-shattering. The higher in level you get, the more you start to realize how harmless it is. The main downside is when you use a strike, you give up your multiple attacks for that round, so damage isn't going to be an issue. I like the Tome of Battle, really. It just adds flavor and gives fighters a bit of spice they were lacking before. DOUBLE EDIT: Another thing worth mentioning is that the Swordsage is the most focused on maneuvers. He isn't as martially focused as the other two base classes, with his d8 hit die and Monk-level BAB progression.
Lawen 09-14-06, 02:04 AM	I would advise you to get the book as soon as possible. If the maneuvers seem more powerful than a fighter of the equivilent level, that's on purpose. The main purpose of The Book of Nine Swords was to make melee classes more versitale and powerful. Regular fighter sucks when compared to literally every other class. It's just a fact. Trust me on that one. On the issue of gaining maneuvers back, I know it seems like they will be overpowering, but try it out. Play with them in a few combats, and I think you'll find that they are balanced. It has already been pointed out, but I'll say it again, maneuvers arn't anywhere near as powerful as spells as the equivilent level. Get the book. It rocks. It is what melee classes have been so badly in need of for a long time.
Dolomite 09-14-06, 02:08 AM	A lot of Manuvers are good but are burned up so fast that you need to be able to get them back after every encounter. They may be kinda like spells but in reality they are weaker in application for certain situations, and they are balanced so that they really dont overwhelm the game. I would say you and the player should hold off on the book till you both read it over and understand what the book entails. It is a more complicated system that looks overpowering but it has checks and balances in it.
milkjug 09-14-06, 02:14 AM	"By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall the Book of Nine Swords be allowed." This has been an eye opener. Already, I have learned things I didn't know. I'll take the advice and just play it out. Thanks for the comments...
Wizards_White_Knight 09-14-06, 02:48 AM	I love the swordsage. I was instantly attracted to him when I bought the book. The warblade looked decent, and I was very unimpressed with the Crusader. However, consider the co-relation between a sorcer and a swordsage. Sure, a sowrdsage hs his manuvers, and he can run around the battlefielf and dish out large amount of damage to a guy... The sorcerer can stand in one spot and dish out a large amount of damage to a lot of guys. The sorcerer's save DC's are all dependant on Charisma, and thats his only score that he needs to keep high. The sword sage has to split his scores across 4 stats, 5 if you want to count strength (I think his insightful strike ability with wisdom negates the need for a high strength) to survive the melee aspect, where as the sorcerer can hide behind the front liners and not have to worry about a high con. And also, you compare the swordsage to a fighter of the same level. I think you need to look at the rogue more than the fighter. The swordsage's techniques available let him play out more the rogue niche than the frontline fighter. Considering the rogues sneak attack dice, the swordsage is kinda on par with damage output. And to whoever said he can take a full round action in battle to ready all his manuevers, thats the Warblade. The Swordsage can only select one to rememorize. And the Adaptive Style feat lets him change his readied manuvers as a full round action. it doesnt "rememorize" the already used ones. I feel the swordsage is well balanced...as is the Warblade. But to correct my initial thoughts, the Crusader is probaboy the strongest class out of the three, and borders on broken. When I picked up my copy of Nine Swords, I also grabbed the colossal red dragon mini. Thinking it would be cool to have our groups first ever epic battle, I made a gestalt Knight/Crusader (I tend to enjoy making gestalt characters with names that mesh well) level 24 and just had a trial run, one on one with the dragon. The techniques available to the Crusader are insane strong. Namely, White Raven. It's 9th level strike allowed me to score a 1st round 1 hit KO due to massive damage. ((Mind you, it was a critical hit)). If he had teammates with him, the added effect of his 9th level strike would have probably been enough to reduce him to 1/3 of his HP. And with the rotating manuvers readied the crusader has, he can use his strikes a lot more often... Long story short...embrace the swordsage. Be proud of the swordsage. Fear the Crusader. WWK
milkjug 09-14-06, 02:56 AM	[QUOTE= And to whoever said he can take a full round action in battle to ready all his manuevers, thats the Warblade. The Swordsage can only select one to rememorize. And the Adaptive Style feat lets him change his readied manuvers as a full round action. it doesnt "rememorize" the already used ones. WWK[/QUOTE] Good stuff for my player to know. I definately need to read this book and understand it.
Wizards_White_Knight 09-14-06, 03:05 AM	Yeah...but having said that, you can still youse the adaptive style feat to get access to manuvers you have already used. Think of his "Manuevers readied" as available spell slots. Assume he has 7. He uses 4 of them, all his memorized shadow hand manuvers. With his last 3, they are desert wind strikes, that all deal fire damage. Let's assume you are fighting a fire immune monster, so he wants his shadow hand strike that deals cold damge. He can use the full round action to change all 7 slots, changing the manuvers memorized. But 4 of those slots are still unable to be used. He still has 3 readied, but they can be any that he knows. So in essence, he can still gain access to particular manuvers if he needs them, but not the full range of 7. WWK
Lawen 09-14-06, 03:28 AM	Ah actually, I'll have to disagree with this assessment. If you would direct your attention to the Character Optimization boards, they have a thread where the have compiled all the responses from Customer Service with regards to the Book of Nine Swords. Check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9806768&postcount=1) and then look under the feats section for Adaptive Style. The consistant reply from Custserv is that Adaptive style does in fact give you all your maneuvers back. It may seem good, but the Sword sage has the weakest recovery mechanic of all three base classes. This feat basically puts them on par with the rest of the classes, and even if it is a little better than the other ones, a Sword Sage relies on his maneuvers to a much greater degree than any other class, so it balances out. I know the Char Optimization board sometimes gets a bad rap over here, but they know their stuff.
KmartKommando 09-14-06, 03:35 AM	Actually, refreshing them with Adaptive Style readies the spent maneuvers again. It's too late for me to spend the time searching for the Tome of Battle FAQ link, but it's around here somewhere.
Lawen 09-14-06, 03:39 AM	Ha, beat you to it :P
ressurrector 09-14-06, 06:00 AM	Oh, just FYI, the Warblade can regain his as a Swift action, followed by a standard action attack, or a standard action to do nothing. This means that even with adaptive style, Swordsages have the weakest recovery mechanic. Also, it's good to note that while some of the maneuvers/boosts have very nice benefits (DR 5/adamantine, 1d6 +1/initiator level) these last for only a single round, so power-wise a simple bull's streingth is far beyond them. Personally I like the book very much as well, and immediately allowed it into my campaign the session after I bought it.
scout989 09-14-06, 08:21 AM	@WWK: Actually, a warblade fets access to White Raven maneuvers as well, so the example given here doesn't really help a lot. The only discipline that Crusaders alone get is Devoted Spirit. Now, DS is a very useful discipline, but it also tends to be more situational than some of the others, due to alignment restrictions on when stuff works. A warblade who used the 9th-level Iron Heart maneuver and scored a crit would have done far more damage than either a warblade or a crusader using White Raven anything. So, I think that the martial adept classes are balanced.
Midnight_v 09-14-06, 08:43 AM	Oh, just FYI, the Warblade can regain his as a Swift action, followed by a standard action attack, or a standard action to do nothing. This means that even with adaptive style, Swordsages have the weakest recovery mechanic. Also, it's good to note that while some of the maneuvers/boosts have very nice benefits (DR 5/adamantine, 1d6 +1/initiator level) these last for only a single round, so power-wise a simple bull's streingth is far beyond them. Personally I like the book very much as well, and immediately allowed it into my campaign the session after I bought it. Actually they can take a full attack in the same round they regain their manuevers not just a standard attack. It was the ask wizards questions of the from page 9-13-06 (i.e. yesterday.) or the day before...
ressurrector 09-14-06, 05:41 PM	Actually they can take a full attack in the same round they regain their manuevers not just a standard attack. It was the ask wizards questions of the from page 9-13-06 (i.e. yesterday.) or the day before... Seriously? Can you link it? Edit: I looked through the Ask Wizards questions/answers, it wasn't in there. I would appreciate a link, if you can find it again.
Miratos 09-14-06, 06:29 PM	This is the information you want regarding the Warblade and his attack after his maneuver recovery: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9938769&postcount=303 Bear in mind, as good as it may be to refresh your maneuvers after you use them as a swift action -- boosts and counters also use swift actions and defense is an important tactical decision in many combats, so using it and then not being able to use a counter could end up meaning you get skewered :)
Wizards_White_Knight 09-14-06, 06:36 PM	@ Scout, Your point is valid as to warblades access to White Raven, and I didnt make myself too clear in my previous post. I really dont like the warblade at all. His class abilites promote MAD, and are all very situational, as opposed to the Swashbuckler for example. Compared to the Crusader whose class abilites function very much like DR, and bonuses to Attk and Dmg for one round. I also feel that Devoted Spirit is a lot more powerful than Iron Heart, simply as a matter of personal preference, I admit. Devoted Spirit grants a lot more play options than Iron Heart, which basically is "Hit more, Hit harder". Of course, these are all my personal opinions, and I guess I was wrong with my assessment of the Adaptive Style Feat. WWK
chava 09-14-06, 07:40 PM	And to whoever said he can take a full round action in battle to ready all his manuevers, thats the Warblade. The Swordsage can only select one to rememorize. And the Adaptive Style feat lets him change his readied manuvers as a full round action. it doesnt "rememorize" the already used ones. Actually the Warblade can ready (however many he can HAVE readied) as a swift action, provided that he either do nothing in that round or makes a standard melee attack action. I feel the swordsage is well balanced...as is the Warblade. But to correct my initial thoughts, the Crusader is probaboy the strongest class out of the three, and borders on broken. I agree about the swordsage and warblade, don't think that crusader is broken.
DMK69 10-04-06, 01:57 PM	But to correct my initial thoughts, the Crusader is probably the strongest class out of the three, and borders on broken. I'm kind of the opinion that it might be bordering on or is broken also. I started my characters off at 3rd level. First off....The Crusader, in combat, can use his Maneuvers over and over and over in a single encounter. So, he starts with 2 cards out of 5 (that he has memorized) and then he gets a new card, out of the 3 that are set aside, every round whether he uses the other cards or not. Lets say he does NOT use them for a few rounds and he now has all 5 cards. From what I understand...this is what happens after he has all 5 cards (please correct me if I read wrong).... He uses one of the cards on his 4th round. It goes to back into the 'set aside' stack. His next round, he gets that card right back. But can only use it the next round. So, he can basically use....lets say FOEHAMMER every other round after he has all 5 cards in his hand. Now imagine he has two of these kind of cards! FOEHAMMER & MOUNTAIN HAMMER! Let's examine this FOEHAMMER strike for a moment. It has no prerequisites besides the fact that you need to be 3rd or 4th level and a Crusader in this case. If the character hits, he does additional 2d6 damage on top of his regular damage. And I just hope he does not roll a crit...that would be his regular damage x3 (Warhammer) plus 2d6. Oh, and my favorite part of this maneuver....it bypasses DR. This is the part that really makes me feel that it is broken. How do you bypass DR from hitting them harder???? So....what I feel is a little powerful about the Crusader... 1. Can continually use these maneuvers over and over again in a single combat. 2. Extra damage of 2d6 at 3rd and 4th level seems a bit extreme on top of a fighter’s regular damage. Especially when they have Str of 18. And lets hope the regular damage isn't a crit! (Warhammer X3) 3. Oh, and bypasses any DR. This 3rd level Crusader basically took out a CR4 in a couple of rounds by himself because he had two maneuvers (FOEHAMMER & MOUNTAIN HAMMER) that did an additional 2d6 damage on top of his regular damage that both bypass DR & Mountain Hammer bypasses hardness as well. Did I get all the above right? Does that seem a bit powerful if not broken? :eek: Guess I'll have to bump the CRs up for them!! :D