Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Discordant_Derision 09-21-06, 06:50 PM	Well, my most experienced player got the book of nine swords before we started my new campaign, and wanted to play a Warblade. Not being a stingy DM, I looked it over, read some of the maneuvers, and thought everything was all fine and dandy. And then we get to playing... There are three players total, the Warblade, a first time player Druid, and a first time player Fighter/Barbarian. Everybody is currently 3rd level. Now, when he was showing me the class, he said it was a slightly nerfed fighter with some maneuvers. Since he had the book and I didn't I felt fine with it. Now, however, at second level he could roll 1d10+2d6+6 through a stance and a maneuver, and the only roll he has to make other than the attack roll is a Concentration roll to beat the targets AC. He maxed out Concentration so he's got upwards of +10 by second level. Well, needless to say, nothing that won't slaughter the other two has a chance against him. So, I figured I'd wise up and throw a spellcaster at them, one that has Charm Person. He only had a +1 Will, so I felt I had a good chance of making the encounter truly challenging. He then pulls out another maneuver that let's him make a concentration check instead of a Will save. He only needed a 4 to pass. After that, he killed the caster, and proceeded to wreak havoc upon the caster's lackeys. He's also been using the Duel of Wills intimidate usage EVERY turn of combat, and he's got a feat that lets him, again, use concentration instead of the appropriate skill. And then, on top of all that, he can just make a single attack action and get all his maneuvers back. Now, I know it was my mistake to allow him to use a class that I hadn't thoroughly perused, but if anyone can give me suggestions to counter act his character's disproportionate power and make things challenging without worrying about killing the other two?
Grod_The_Giant 09-21-06, 07:06 PM	well, not having any of the books, i'll have to go with generic OOC advice. Now, this is assuming the 'experienced' player is not a optimization freak, you should just talk to him about how he's unbalancing the game, and maybe he should 'tone down' the character. Also, you should ask to borrow the book and read over the class and feats carefully to make sure you understand it and he's ot making any mistakes.
OGS-Remix 09-21-06, 07:17 PM	Now, when he was showing me the class, he said it was a slightly nerfed fighter with some maneuvers. If that is what he used to described the Warblade, then he was lying to you. Any of the three base classes in ToB are much much stronger then a fighter of equivalent level. Manuvers are like magic for fighting classes, which means they are inherently stronger then non-magical classes. I agree with Grod and would suggest borrowing the book from him so you can read up more on the system before you go any further. If you can't get the book yourself, at least read up a couple builds on the Optimization boards and set him up with a rival. He can't be the only person in the world who mastered the Sublime way, so there are sure to be others who can fight him on his level. And of course the rival has cohorts as well leading to an interesting encounter for all.
lears_fool 09-21-06, 07:59 PM	I got the impression that the ToB approach was to do what the PHBII failed to do. .make the melee combatant closer to an even par with the casters. The three classes are actually very different, with the warblade being the popular 'uber' class with the crusader being a bit more knight-like and the swordsage being more rogueish. First, I'd make sure you have a good handle on his maneuvers! A level 3 warblade only has 5 maneuvers known, can only have 3 readied, and only has one level 1 stance. I'm guessing he's using the Punishing Stance (gain +1d6 damage, -2 to AC) and probably used the sapphire nightmare blade for +1d6 with a con check and moment of perfect mind to use a concentration check instead of a will save. . but that's two of his three maneuvers leaving only one remaining before he spends a round regaining them. That's nice, but there are ways a fighter barbarian can be just as dangerous and druids (especially with a good companion) aren't exactly hopeless on the battlefield. I'm guessing perhaps only part of the problem is that a warblade is a bit better than a fighter, and part of it is that the other two players are inexperienced and largely unoptomized while he's going gonzo with his new toy. I'm going to say go with the other poster who said take him aside and chat with him. It's no fun for everyone else if one player's totally dominating every fight. And in the meantime perhaps train the others and tweak them up a bit (give the barbie reach weapon and spiked armor and show your druid a couple of tricks) and put them against things that lessen his advantages and play to the others. And have your baddies fight intelligently. A couple of archers in the trees or a ways away would logically go after the guy who just took out a fighter in one shot. . let the wizards stay away and let the barbarian take advantage of his greater speed. . toss in something with reach, and so on.
Miratos 09-21-06, 08:14 PM	I would recommend borrowing the book as well and looking through it and making sure you have an understanding of the class, disciplines, feats and stances and make sure they are used correctly. The Nine Sword classes are on the upper curve of the power scale when you compare them to the core classes and better compare to casters since thats the parallel to the disciplines. Calling it a nerfed fighter is definitely inaccurate. In shorter fights, the warblade definitely has an edge but lacks the longer term staying power of the fighter due, especially with his limited maneuvers. But optimized, they both do comparable damage from what I've experienced in playing with them. Also consider the experience of your players in regards to this. A more experienced player can make something seem more powerful then it is. You might work with helping them (or getting him to help) optimize their characters some as well. Finally, realize the warblade has no range skills except for thrown weapons. Intelligent enemies will likely realize he has to reach them and use distance techniques (up in trees, across the river, through trapped underbrush) to slow him down and foil him. ToB classes fit best in high fantasy, high magic worlds, so if yours is not a standard one like that, things will be heavily slanted towards these classes. I'd also allow the fighter to swap out weapon specialization like the warblade can...imo that is an injustice the fighter shouldn't have to take. Finally, give him a nemesis...perhaps someone who trained with him who hated him because he got all the girls...or something.
Lawen 09-21-06, 08:27 PM	Well, the warblade is more powerful than the fighter, but it's not hard to be more powerful than a vanilla fighter. :P Seriously though, I assume the Barbarian took the levels of fighter to get the extra feats right? If that's true, he should be able to at least keep up with the warblade. If he can't yet, just wait until his BAB gets high enough to be effective with power attack. Things will also level out quickly once the druid gets wildshape and starts ganking everything. Warblade is good, but they aren't the end all be all of everything. Just make sure to read through all the stances he has and understand what they can do. If he's using the stance I think he's using, then he should also get a -2 to his AC. Make sure that gets factored in. :D
chava 09-21-06, 09:02 PM	A) ask them which manuevers he knows (at third level the should be 5) B) Make sure you know which three he has prepared (the warblade can refresh his manuevers as a swift action on his action, but without the hour+ of meditative weapon kata, it has to be the same three manuevers.) C) hate to say it, but double check feats (if he's human he should have 3, else standard 2) D) Duel of Wills: 1- only usable once per combat (and must occur before initiative so in combats that are started by sneaky rouge this is useless), period.; he should choose a single target opposed initimidate checks: outcome one) target chooses not to participate and your player gets a +2 against that target for the first round of combat only outcome two) he wins and gets +2 against that target and target has a -2 against him [*if this happens smart npc avoids the warblade and picks on other party members and leaves his minions to deal with the scary melee fighter] outcome three) they tie, no bonuses and no penalties to either side outcome four) target wins, as outcome two only reversed Okay, so even if he has maxed on his concentration, throw him up against team-tag sorcerers who make their living strong-arming villages (thus variant that switches class skill from bluff to initimidate) -> high charisma + max ranks in Intimidate should help with the Duel of Wills -> Give the warblade initiative, but keep your sorcerers spaced so he can't smack all of them at once -> Have the sorcerer's work as a team (hold initiative to act simutaneously) to each throw a mind-affecting spell at the warblade (since he can't refresh his manuevers once he burns them Have the sorcerer's minions deal with the other two. HOWEVER, this is just to smack him around once in a while, bc throwing him continually into situations where the areas he has specialized in are worthless is just mean. 2nd borrowing the book and understanding how his manevers work. Most only work if he does certain actions. (For example most of my warblade's maneuvers are based on making a melee attack and needing to roll a Jump DC, but I specialized in Tiger Claw not Diamond Mind (which is my guess from the description of the effects of his maneuvers)) The warblade is a wicked melee fighter but no more so than a properly optimized barbarian (or scarely a properly optimized psion in the hands of a player who knows the books better than me because he normally dms)
ressurrector 09-21-06, 09:14 PM	Some things I'm doing to challenge the new Crusader and Warblade in my group: Enemies with ToB classes Multiple enemies (if he's swarmed, that -2 AC will hurt, and massive damage isn't needed vs a kobold) Intelligent enemies (ones with bows, ones that use ambush tactics, ones that use Disarm, Grapple, or Trip) Enemies that can take a beating: oozes, some undead, etc... (incorporeal undead are a great challenge for melee types who have magical [but not ghost touch] weapons) Good combinations of enemies: like 4 fighters, a swordsage or two, and a high level warblade/crusader/caster leading them. Be sure to get a good mix of meat shields, and damage dealers. Ideally throw in some archers with precise shot.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-21-06, 09:21 PM	Also, I don't recall a Diamond mind maneuver that replaced an attack roll (I would've been all over one of those). The maneuver in question makes the target flat-footed. Also, duel of wills can only be used once per encounter. Other than that, read up on the rules. Sounds like the player lied to you, that alone's an issue. In combat, try a foe who the warblade can't get up close and personal with. A ray-using wizard, maybe. The fighter/barbarian has a slightly better chance thanks to his increased speed.
FnordBear 09-21-06, 10:54 PM	Well as someone playing a mid level TOB character currently I can say with assurance he is definately doing something wrong. First, as has been pointed out the duel of wills is usable once per encounter and only before initiative. Secondly, yes he can do a rightous smack, but if he is doing what I think he will need to make a -full attack- to do it, thus if he moves sorry. Now some ways to combat him without being cheap. All the TOB classes have 2 things in common: 1) They are melee monsters, a properly made archer/crosbowman/gunslinger/whatever of equal level will be a difficult oponent at best. 2) TOB characters do not fare well against groups of attackers unless specifically built to do so. Swarms = uh oh. Now on to combating him. 1) A Swarm of kobold archers at level 3 should absolutely eat this guy alive. 2) Unless you have specificaly designed your character to fight unarmed or are a multiclass monk, you are nigh useless without a weapon. Characters that can disarm or sunder will also be his bane. 3) Ray of Enfeeblement. It is a level 1 spell with no save. 4) Grease, also a level 1 spell. Also truely, get a copy or borrow a copy of the book. There are feats that allow fighters and other classes to learn and use manuvers as well. Imagine the look on his face when he finds that barbarian that just raged and charged him is using a punishing stance and a a Desert Wind strike. Always remember, this is your game. No matter how uber a character the player makes you can make one that is better. In an arms race of players vs. DMs, the DM always wins.
Miratos 09-21-06, 11:11 PM	Well, the warblade is more powerful than the fighter, but it's not hard to be more powerful than a vanilla fighter. :P Sorry, not in some of the builds I've seen where they were both spec'ed out on other forums. They're pretty well matched. It entirely depends on what sources you can pull from regarding feats and such. A fighter limited to only core is seriously underpowered compared to any of the classes in the ToB...
Lokathor 09-21-06, 11:56 PM	B) Make sure you know which three he has prepared (the warblade can refresh his manuevers as a swift action on his action, but without the hour+ of meditative weapon kata, it has to be the same three manuevers.) No, it takes 5 minutes to change your readied maneuvers. Secondly, yes he can do a rightous smack, but if he is doing what I think he will need to make a -full attack- to do it, thus if he moves sorry. 1d10+2d6+6 == Bastard Sword (2-hand, Str18) + Punishing Stance + Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Full Attack isn't needed at all. My own warblade uses this exact setup. Also truely, get a copy or borrow a copy of the book. There are feats that allow fighters and other classes to learn and use manuvers as well. Imagine the look on his face when he finds that barbarian that just raged and charged him is using a punishing stance and a a Desert Wind strike. Not very worried I'd assume. The barbarian would have to use 3 feats to get such things (all the feats a level 3 human barbarian gets). At that point the barbarian could use either steely strike or steel wind and he'd become an otherwise normal barbarian with punishing stance on. Rage will run out even, the warblade could play things defensively for a bit and the guy would become fatigued. Or he could power attack for 2 since the barbarian has punishing stance on (the barbarian can't power attack though, because he used all his feats already). EDIT (to seerow): Ah, yes, read 2 when it should have been 6. Potentially a 18 and 1-handed with blade mediation and a +1 sword, but not likely. Also, power attack is a definate possibility, since sapphire nightmare allows a touch attack.
Seerow 09-21-06, 11:58 PM	1d10+2d6+2 == Bastard Sword (1-hand, Str14) + Punishing Stance + Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Full Attack isn't needed at all. My own warblade uses this exact setup. So for the +6 he got an 18 strength and is going two handed? What kind of stat generation system are you using OP? If he pulled an 18 strength without being a Half-Orc, he's going to be hurting in other areas.
Moon-Lancer 09-22-06, 12:20 AM	some people roll, and that can get a 18 along with other good stats if ones lucky. im glad to see he is useing warblade wrong, becuse this means its not bad of a balanced class.
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-22-06, 12:22 AM	In shorter fights, the warblade definitely has an edge but lacks the longer term staying power of the fighter due, especially with his limited maneuvers. So the trick would be to throw a greater number of weaker monsters at him?
Ashok_Lal 09-22-06, 12:32 AM	Tob???
Discordant_Derision 09-22-06, 01:14 AM	We roll for stats. I know, not as balanced and all that, but it's a bit more fun. He does have an 18 Str, and a decent Con, while everything else is decent but not insane. His rolling three dice on nearly every hit and Duel of Willing everybody that comes along is what was bothering me. But as I now know that Duel of Wills is once per encounter, and some ideas on how to challenge him, I think it'll go a bit smoother.
Lokathor 09-22-06, 03:34 AM	Just be glad that he hasn't decided to use Mountain Hammer on every door he comes across. Between the fact that I'm the party "locksmith" with a warhammer I keep spare and the fact that I kept missing in actual combat, my "kill count" for doors has currently exceeded my kill count of all other creature types combined (across levels 1-3).
Discordant_Derision 09-22-06, 03:49 AM	We're playing a Forgotten Realms campaign, and he's a Damaran hunting for a sect of Vaasan troops that destroyed his temple. I was thinking of having three of the Vaasans ambush the party. One NPC is made for Sundering and delivering massive damage. The other is a good archer. The third is the brains and uses disarm and Combat Expertise to make life difficult. Should make things interesting, plus the despair of having his bastard sword destroyed. :evillaugh
Mikal 09-24-06, 10:45 AM	We're playing a Forgotten Realms campaign, and he's a Damaran hunting for a sect of Vaasan troops that destroyed his temple. I was thinking of having three of the Vaasans ambush the party. One NPC is made for Sundering and delivering massive damage. The other is a good archer. The third is the brains and uses disarm and Combat Expertise to make life difficult. Should make things interesting, plus the despair of having his bastard sword destroyed. :evillaugh Just remember leaving him without his sword is a good way to get him killed... of course if he's smart he'd withdraw as soon as it went crack, so we'll just have to see if he's smart.
tsuyoshikentsu 09-24-06, 03:08 PM	Actually, I think he could use Unarmed Strikes with DB maneuvers, so he wouldn't be TOTALLY helpless. Still, tohugh, it sounds like both you and he need to have a better understanding of the rules involved, as suggested above. Pick up the book and go over it with him.
ressurrector 09-24-06, 03:35 PM	You are allowed to use any weapon you want with any maneuvers you want. The disciplines preferred weapons only apply for some feats and abilities (like shadow hand, that desert wind feat, and the Swordsages Discipline Focus [weapon focus])
Mikal 09-24-06, 07:26 PM	You may be allowed to... but without IUS or the like you're gonna get AoO's and junk when using them
Mandarbgrim 09-24-06, 07:34 PM	But clubs are free & easily came by.
DarkThoughts24 09-24-06, 10:30 PM	the flaw is people on here are so used to using point buys to do balance comparisons they forget large portions of traditional RP tables still use dice based generation... tob=tome of battle: book of 9 swords the swrmfighting isn't a help vs a warblade, the full round action refills all their techniques and hits one of the kobolds. the key is something with a good strong hit and attack bonus. think bugbears, or regular bears. or wolves. wolves will exploit the early stances ac weakenings with harsh attacks the fighter/barb will shine more in that (or the druid does wild empathy, either way the warblade owes somebody in that moment)
tsuyoshikentsu 09-25-06, 12:25 AM	the swrmfighting isn't a help vs a warblade, the full round action refills all their techniques and hits one of the kobolds. the key is something with a good strong hit and attack bonus. think bugbears, or regular bears. or wolves. wolves will exploit the early stances ac weakenings with harsh attacks the fighter/barb will shine more in that (or the druid does wild empathy, either way the warblade owes somebody in that moment)This is utterly wrong. A warblade will do more than enough to one-hit these things, and with a d12 HD can take a hit or two. However, four kobolds with crossbows will make it cry.
Norsesmithy 09-25-06, 01:12 AM	Especially if said Kobolds have concelement and cover and are 3 move actions of difficult terrain away.
xanadu 09-25-06, 01:34 AM	I'll reiterate what others have said - get the book. Also be sure this guy announces what manuevers he has ready. A warblade has precious few and often has to make a real choice whther or not to ready that concentration counter for a save as that is one less strike available to him. Be sure he is refreshing his manuevers correctly; he cannot strike every round. That said I think another key ingredient to your problem here is you have new players. A raging barbarian with extra feats should not be outshined by a warblade. Though druids are nowhere's near CoDzillia status at those levels, the animal companion is stong, summoned (augmented) hippogryffs own low level combats, and spells like entangle win fights before they begin.
TheDarkLord 09-25-06, 01:36 AM	Tell the Druid character to get on these boards and search for druid builds. If the person listens and does so, let the Warblade have his fun for now because when the uber Druid starts rollin' he will definatly take a back seat :D.
X-Codes 09-25-06, 02:39 AM	For the Duel of Wills, just give your melee mobs Intimidate ranks. He can only use it at the start of the battle against one enemy. Whatever he hits with Sapphire Nightmare Blade will probably die, so just use multiple enemies to significantly reduce the impact of the attack. This also helps because the stance he uses for another d6 gives him a -2 AC. This also brings the Barbarian back into the game because he probably has the Cleave feat. For spells, use Grease in addition to an occasional damage spell. This emphasizes his poor AC if he hasn't had the foresight to put 5 ranks into Balance (he just might have). His reflex saves *are* good, but theres also a small chance he'll fall prone and be in real trouble. Otherwise, use teamwork, and maybe a few items from Tome of Battle against him. For example, have him encounter an evasive, lightly armored human with only a single weapon accompanied by a couple greusome half-orcs. The Human is, in fact, a Swordsage with a number of Setting Sun manuvers. For example, the Warblade could charge the Swordsage who initiates the Counter Charge manuver to ruin his attack, and then move around him and initiate the Devastating Throw manuver to send the Warblade flying towards the two half-orcs and falling prone. The ordinary half-orc warriors then take a couple chunks out of him with their weapons thanks to him being an easy target. This will probably cause the other two to want to get in on the act, and theres nothing wrong with that! The Druid picking up the Martial Study (Foehammer) feat at level 6 takes care of one of his weaknesses, overcoming Damage Reduction. He can then pick up Martial Stance (Martial Spirit) and while wildshaped into a form with a lot of natural attacks he can do some decent healing while on the offensive. The Barbarian could easily pick up a level of Warblade a little into his career and gain the Disarming Strike and Wall of Blades manuvers. Combined with the ease of regaining his manuvers, he'll be a exceptional foe against any opponent, especially those who use manufactured weapons.
Pyke_Moonshadow 09-25-06, 10:27 AM	If you are truly having a problem with it then I think you are within your right to ask him to play something else until you have had a chance to fully review the material.
wonlee76 09-25-06, 10:46 AM	I guess I'll parrot what everyone else has said. #1: Borrow ToB so you can learn the rules. Seriously, if you don't know the rules, you shouldn't allow it in your game as a DM. Its not like you're allowing a feat/spell/prestige class into your game after a glance. ToB has a whole new set of rules in it, similar to Psionics and Incarnum. #2: Here are the basics you need to know about ToB PCs. They can use a maneuver once per encounter. Not once per round, once per encounter. It takes some time to regain maneuvers (maybe 10 minutes, maybe a round depending on feat selection). Some maneuvers have "casting times" of sorts so some of them can't be used as part of a full attack (while some maneuvers are swift actions so you could full attack after using the maneuver). #3: After becoming familiar with the rules in ToB, you're in a better spot to design challenging encounters for the whole group. Multiple weaker enemies are better then 1 tough enemy since ToB maneuvers are once/encounter type abilities. Range attacks with terrain/high ground will hamper the Warblade's abilities. Flying enemies is also another option. Or an encounter with a combination of all three. Some low CR flyers, archers and a few melee types to go after the PCs.
Michaelot 09-29-06, 07:42 PM	To the OP. General Weaknesses of the classes: 1. They must spend 5 mins (undisturbed) to prepare their maneuvers...if they don't say they have done it then they don't get their maneuvers. 2. They must choose their maneuvers ahead of time, much like a Wizard, prepares his spells. They can only swap maneuvers after meditating, undisturbed, for 5 mins at some time (Crusader has an exception to choosing maneuvers ahead of time). Unlike a wizard they cannot leave blank slots (to prepare later), they must pick all of them at once. 3. Initiation of the Maneuver (This has some big drawbacks): Some things take a Full round to initiate so they would not get to use the maneuver until the next round, after the full round has been done in preparing the action…ie charge…they spend the standard to get the full round action ready and then next round they go. • In order to initiate a maneuver or stance they must be able to move. If they are denied the ability to move they are helpless as far as their abilities. • They must declare they are going to use a maneuver BEFORE they hit their opponent or do the maneuver. (They cannot hit them and then say I am going to use xyz maneuver...I see most people doing this when they begin to play any of these classes.) Generally most maneuvers require a successful hit…if they do not hit then it brings up the next point… • They must be able to finish the initiation requirement(s) or it is considered expended even if they did not get to use it. Page 39 (Some maneuvers are incorporated into a standard action.) • Readied tactics against maneuvers....ie...the enemy says, "The moment he moves towards so and so I will run over there and trip them." This may prevent a maneuver from happening, due to stopping the initiation of the maneuver. This is one of the best things you can do to combat a Warblade • AO’s “You do not provoke [ao’s] when you initiate a maneuver or stance unless its description explicitly says otherwise. Some maneuvers allow you to move, charge, and take other actions that could provoke attacks of opportunity. Unless the maneuver description specifically says that such action do not provoke [ao’s], they do. For example, if you use a maneuver to charge a foe, and during that charge you move in a way that provokes [ao’s], you provoke them as normal unless the maneuver description explicitly says otherwise.” Page 39 (italics and bold for emphasis.) 4. Stances are Stances • They must remain in the stance to get the benefits. (Generally speaking this means if they move they do not get the benefit of it anymore; some stances allow them to move with additional speed, most however state if they move more than 5 feet away the stance ends. So a stance that gives bonuses to AC or attacks must be maintained in the square they took them in or they can only move 5 feet to keep it most of the time. I have seen many get into a stance and somehow it continued with them as they were chasing an opponent. Also, usually the bonuses from a stance apply to one opponent and that opponent only and negatives against others, likewise they also give other opponents bonuses against the warblade thus giving them a better opportunity for attacks against the person in the stance. This tactic is very useful when going up against a warblade.) • If they are rendered helpless, pushed away 5 feet, or knocked prone the stance ends. 5. Swift and Immediate Actions Defined: This is one of the rules I see broken all the time when people begin to play the class. Immediate action and swift actions can be performed anytime during the round. They are like free actions, BUT they take a little bit longer, so only one or the other may be performed in a round, but not both. Example. A Warblade uses a maneuver that uses a swift action and then states they want to get into a stance for the return attack. This is not possible. They already used their one swift or immediate action in that round. However, if they were in a stance maintained from a previous round, which gives a bonus to attacks, they could make their attacks and then after could switch into a new stance for defensive purposes, provided they did not use a manuever during their attack. 6. Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance: A bonus and a curse • Despite what some people have said when you read the book you will see it specifically mention (in its own words), Maneuvers/Stances are not magical even though their effects appear to be. It comes from their Ki like a monks attack does. As such they do not bypass damage reduction, unless specifically stated in the maneuver/stance. With this throw monsters against the warblade that are affected only by magical means, this will ruin any warblades day. Ie “Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic...” They would have no effect on the vampire until points of damage was counted off from the attack. The plus side to this is since maneuvers are supernatural or extraordinary abilities, they are not magical and will work in an anti-magic field etc and will affect creatures who have spell resistance to the full effect. 7. Maneuvers and Saving Throws: Another HUGE thing players neglect to do. Many maneuvers offer the opponent a saving throws which if overcome means they suffer no effect from the maneuver or take or a partial effect. The maneuver is expended no matter what outcome. 8. Class Saving Throws: • Crusader – Has the lowest progression of Reflex and Will saves. • Swordsage – Has the lowest progression of Fortitude saves. • Warblade – Has the lowest progression of Reflex and Will saves. Hopefully this helps. I have seen a lot of people play the classes from this book and they play them totally wrong.
Michaelot 09-29-06, 07:52 PM	Originally Posted by wonlee76 #2: Here are the basics you need to know about ToB PCs. They can use a maneuver once per encounter. Not once per round, once per encounter. It takes some time to regain maneuvers (maybe 10 minutes, maybe a round depending on feat selection). Some maneuvers have "casting times" of sorts so some of them can't be used as part of a full attack (while some maneuvers are swift actions so you could full attack after using the maneuver). That is not correct. They can use as many maneuvers as they have readied in an encounter and stances are unlimited in an encounter. The provissions I mentioned previously determine how they can use those stances and maneuvers in those encounters. Another suggestion. They really have a poor selection of class skills. In my last campaign our Warblade almost drowned because they spend so much on concentration that they don't have the skill points to put into swim, climb etc. Throw obstacles that will make the warblade have to balance out his skills points and if he fails...oh well, he should have made a more well-rounded character instead of an uber damager machine. One Last thing. Your player probably does not realize he is playing the class wrong. In my opinion the book is not as organized as it could have been. A lot of the clarifications are in hidden in the pages found inbetween the paragraphs where you would not expect them. They could have totally organized the book better. Anyway, cut him a little slack instead of accusing him that he is lying or purposely tried to decieve you.
Heahengel 09-29-06, 07:55 PM	• They must remain in the stance to get the benefits. (Generally speaking this means if they move they do not get the benefit of it anymore; some stances allow them to move with additional speed, most however state if they move more than 5 feet away the stance ends. So a stance that gives bonuses to AC or attacks must be maintained in the square they took them in or they can only move 5 feet to keep it most of the time. I have seen many get into a stance and somehow it continued with them as they were chasing an opponent. Also, usually the bonuses from a stance apply to one opponent and that opponent only and negatives against others, likewise they also give other opponents bonuses against the warblade thus giving them a better opportunity for attacks against the person in the stance. This tactic is very useful when going up against a warblade.) What stances say that? Maybe there are one or two, but almost all of the stances stay on until you deactivate it, or switch to a new one. Some may not be useful unless you are moving, or something, but that is specific to the stance. Here is what the book says about stances on Pg38: A stance remains in effect indefinitely . . . . You enjoy the benefit your stance confers until you change to another stance . . . . You can enjoy its benefit while exploring or traveling. Also for a Warblade maneuvers aren't really a 1/encounter type of thing. All it takes is a swift and a standard action to renew them. Edit: Oops, that was someone elses mistake, not yours and you corrected it while I was writing. Just incase it is important, you can always use a move action to perform a swift action, if you have already used a swift/immediate action that round. Edit2: I'm not sure that Supernatural abilities work in AMFields. Also a lot of the supernatural abilities would pierce DR. I have no idea if they would on the strength of being supernatural alone, but energy damage like fire damage always pierces DR.
Michaelot 09-29-06, 09:58 PM	Originally posted by Heahengel What stances say that? Maybe there are one or two, but almost all of the stances stay on until you deactivate it, or switch to a new one. Some may not be useful unless you are moving, or something, but that is specific to the stance. Here is what the book says about stances on Pg38: Do you have the book? You will not find it under the area you are referring to. You have to look at the actual stance. Looking through the book a large portion of them say in the stance description (usually towards the end of their description), something to the effect of "If you are moved 5 ft or knocked prone while in this stance, the effects end." (ie. you were bull rushed, tripped, etc.) You can however take your 5 ft step willingly and keep the stance. Edit2: I'm not sure that Supernatural abilities work in AMFields. Also a lot of the supernatural abilities would pierce DR. I have no idea if they would on the strength of being supernatural alone, but energy damage like fire damage always pierces DR.This also is specifically mentioned in The Book of Nine Swords. I do not have the page number, but if you look at spell resistance in the table of contents, it will be mentioned in that area how they will function in anti-magic areas. It is somewhere in that area. Thus I express my point again on how the book is poorly organized. You have to go to 3-4 places just to get the grasp of how something actually works. Don't get me wrong, it has some cool things, but I still think it could have been formatted better.
ressurrector 09-29-06, 10:33 PM	Some corrections to the following. 1. They must spend 5 mins (undisturbed) to prepare their maneuvers...if they don't say they have done it then they don't get their maneuvers. It states that if an Adpet has not been in combat, or a similar activity, their maneuvers are concidered to be recovered after 1 minute. The 5 minute is only for re-choosing, or the initial preparation at the beginning of the day. Additionally each adept class has some method to recover maneuvers in a shorter period of time. 2. They must choose their maneuvers ahead of time, much like a Wizard, prepares his spells. They can only swap maneuvers after meditating, undisturbed, for 5 mins at some time (Crusader has an exception to choosing maneuvers ahead of time). Unlike a wizard they cannot leave blank slots (to prepare later), they must pick all of them at once.The crusader follows the rules just like every other class, the difference is that a subset of the "readied" maneuvers is actually available for use at any time. A Crusader can only randomly be granted a maneuver that was both prepared and witheld. 3. Initiation of the Maneuver (This has some big drawbacks): Some things take a Full round to initiate so they would not get to use the maneuver until the next round, after the full round has been done in preparing the action…ie charge…they spend the standard to get the full round action ready and then next round they go. This is just plain wrong, a full round initiation means that the action to USE the strike is a full round, at the end of the round the maneuvers is used, and any effects (rolls, attacks, etc...) are done on the turn in which you initiated. For full round it just means all you get is a maneuver+ a 5' step • In order to initiate a maneuver or stance they must be able to move. If they are denied the ability to move they are helpless as far as their abilities. • They must declare they are going to use a maneuver BEFORE they hit their opponent or do the maneuver. (They cannot hit them and then say I am going to use xyz maneuver...I see most people doing this when they begin to play any of these classes.) Generally most maneuvers require a successful hit…if they do not hit then it brings up the next point… • They must be able to finish the initiation requirement(s) or it is considered expended even if they did not get to use it. Page 39 (Some maneuvers are incorporated into a standard action.) Correct. • Readied tactics against maneuvers....ie...the enemy says, "The moment he moves towards so and so I will run over there and trip them." This may prevent a maneuver from happening, due to stopping the initiation of the maneuver. This is one of the best things you can do to combat a Warblade Correct, however tripping a character would not stop a maneuver unless the maneuver requires the user to be standing. The number of maneuvers that can be stopped by readying against is very small. • AO’s “You do not provoke [ao’s] when you initiate a maneuver or stance unless its description explicitly says otherwise. Some maneuvers allow you to move, charge, and take other actions that could provoke attacks of opportunity. Unless the maneuver description specifically says that such action do not provoke [ao’s], they do. For example, if you use a maneuver to charge a foe, and during that charge you move in a way that provokes [ao’s], you provoke them as normal unless the maneuver description explicitly says otherwise.” Page 39 (italics and bold for emphasis.) Correct. 4. Stances are Stances • They must remain in the stance to get the benefits. (Generally speaking this means if they move they do not get the benefit of it anymore; some stances allow them to move with additional speed, most however state if they move more than 5 feet away the stance ends. So a stance that gives bonuses to AC or attacks must be maintained in the square they took them in or they can only move 5 feet to keep it most of the time. I have seen many get into a stance and somehow it continued with them as they were chasing an opponent. Also, usually the bonuses from a stance apply to one opponent and that opponent only and negatives against others, likewise they also give other opponents bonuses against the warblade thus giving them a better opportunity for attacks against the person in the stance. This tactic is very useful when going up against a warblade.) • If they are rendered helpless, pushed away 5 feet, or knocked prone the stance ends. Stone Dragon is the only discipline containing stances that require you to not move to maintain the stance. Of the other stances only one other I am aware of has a requirement, and that's to have a single hand free. 5. Swift and Immediate Actions Defined: This is one of the rules I see broken all the time when people begin to play the class. Immediate action and swift actions can be performed anytime during the round. They are like free actions, BUT they take a little bit longer, so only one or the other may be performed in a round, but not both. Example. A Warblade uses a maneuver that uses a swift action and then states they want to get into a stance for the return attack. This is not possible. They already used their one swift or immediate action in that round. However, if they were in a stance maintained from a previous round, which gives a bonus to attacks, they could make their attacks and then after could switch into a new stance for defensive purposes, provided they did not use a manuever during their attack. 6. Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance: A bonus and a curse • Despite what some people have said when you read the book you will see it specifically mention (in its own words), Maneuvers/Stances are not magical even though their effects appear to be. It comes from their Ki like a monks attack does. As such they do not bypass damage reduction, unless specifically stated in the maneuver/stance. With this throw monsters against the warblade that are affected only by magical means, this will ruin any warblades day. Ie “Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic...” They would have no effect on the vampire until points of damage was counted off from the attack. The plus side to this is since maneuvers are supernatural or extraordinary abilities, they are not magical and will work in an anti-magic field etc and will affect creatures who have spell resistance to the full effect. The weapon used in a maneuver can overcome damage reduction as per normal rules. Example: A Warblade uses Lightning Throw with a silvered +1 greatsword, all damage done by this maneuver is treated as both magical and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. 7. Maneuvers and Saving Throws: Another HUGE thing players neglect to do. Many maneuvers offer the opponent a saving throws which if overcome means they suffer no effect from the maneuver or take or a partial effect. The maneuver is expended no matter what outcome. 8. Class Saving Throws: • Crusader – Has the lowest progression of Reflex and Will saves. • Swordsage – Has the lowest progression of Fortitude saves. • Warblade – Has the lowest progression of Reflex and Will saves. Hopefully this helps. I have seen a lot of people play the classes from this book and they play them totally wrong. Essentially correct here. The formula for the saving throws appears to be: 10+Maneuver level+disciplines primary stat. Desert Wind saving throws are based off Wisdom for example. Might want to read through the book a little more carefully, and be careful about making blanket statements.
Heahengel 09-29-06, 11:40 PM	You are right about the stances, I hadn't seen that before. But it isn't the majority of them. This also is specifically mentioned in The Book of Nine Swords. I do not have the page number, but if you look at spell resistance in the table of contents, it will be mentioned in that area how they will function in anti-magic areas. It is somewhere in that area. Pg. 40 specifically says that the supernatural maneuvers obey all the normal rules for supernatural abilities. (Directly under where is says that maneuvers normally work fine in AMFs). Minor nitpicks. In general, good post.
Michaelot 09-30-06, 12:10 AM	Sorry 1 and 2 should have been combined to keep the same context so it would be more clarified that this for choosing the maneuvers that could be readied during the day and the 5 mins is for changing the readied maneuvers known for that day. (Apparently I need to be more organized just like the book :D ) Yes, I know how the crusader works and the differences, I probably made it more confusing by how I worded it. I just did not care to go into the details as the person is asking about the Warblade in particular. It was just something to bring up so the OP can read that they have a little difference...in that they have a little "Random factor" in the maneuvers readied before and encounter. Originaly Posted by ressurrector This is just plain wrong, a full round initiation means that the action to USE the strike is a full round, at the end of the round the maneuvers is used, and any effects (rolls, attacks, etc...) are done on the turn in which you initiated. We both are right here. Yours is assuming that they have made no actions during that round and mine is that they are going to spend movement just to get in range, If the opponent is sufficient distance, as I am sure the wizard was (spoken of earlier in the post) or else the wizard was a moron. Under these conditions it would mean they are not able to use a full round action until next round.Originaly Posted by ressurrector ...however tripping a character would not stop a maneuver unless the maneuver requires the user to be standing. The number of maneuvers that can be stopped by readying against is very small. I am not sure what you logic is here. They declare they are going to use a maneuver against so and so. NPC (who is not so and so) readied the action to trip them the moment they went against anyone. Most of the offensive Maneuvers require that, "A successful attack be made against the target." If the person falls to the ground due to a trip, how can they make the attack against the intended target? (And here is the key "against the intended target") Plain and simple they cannot, they will be flat on their face and will lose the maneuver they began to initiate. Maneuvers are prepared against a single target, they are not something that is transferred in mid-action to someone else who gets in their way. This goes against the whole point of the book and there are examples in the book that speak of this, additionally the Warblade suffer AC penalities or attacks penalties against others they are not using the stance against. Contrary to popular belief stances generally only grant a bonus to one opponent. Thus others can take advantage of the Warblades Myopic focus...giving them bonuses against him. Stone Dragon is the only discipline containing stances that require you to not move to maintain the stance. Of the other stances only one other I am aware of has a requirement, and that's to have a single hand free.It is not just the Stone Discipline, there are others. When I get a chance to look at the book again, since I don't have it with me now, I will post a list of stances that have this movement limitation, other than a 5 ft step willingly taken. Just logically speaking though, when I think about what the word "Stance" means and the nature of the class being a trained Martial Class. A stance is a posture (or position) held. You have to be able to move to get into it (which is a requirement for all stances). This makes sense, but at the same time if you move too much, how can you maintain it? Heahengel I just saw your post. Sorry I was wrong about "a large portion of them" that gives a false impression, so to clarify there are stances that end when the character is pushed outside 5 ft or knocked prone, etc. Thanks for pointing out the confusion.
Heahengel 09-30-06, 12:21 AM	NP. Rereading my first post I sounded more confrontational than I meant to be.
Godzilla 09-30-06, 12:24 AM	If he's understanding, you could explain that he's making the game a bit unbalanced and too easy, and ask him to re-make a character. You could also have him put his character on hold while the other two go up in a level or two, and then let him back in, making it more of a challenge.
Michaelot 09-30-06, 12:28 AM	No worries, I didn't take it that way. I try not to put emotion in people's post, unless I see just plain obvious stuff, which unfortunately some resort to on these boards.
Heahengel 09-30-06, 12:42 AM	Actually responding to the original post now, I think your problem is that the encounter that happened played on each of his maneuver's strengths. That probably made him feel really great about his character. I'm not going to swear that the ToB system is balanced. I don't have enough experience with it yet. But the abilities that he has aren't absurd. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is nice, but it requires him to put points into a skill thats useless to him otherwise (except for other Diamond Mind Abilities). Also, it is highly comparable to a rogue feinting in combat, with improved feint - a skill check to make the opponent flat footed, and then do extra damage. Also, if you fail the concentration check, then you get -2 to hit, and no benefits (also the rogue gets better saling damage with sneak attack). As for the stance, -2 to AC for +1d6 damage is not an amazing tradeoff. Barbarian Rage is a lot better. But really, check the rules. If you think this is overpowered, you are going to be in for some fun if you don't. Soon he will be making concentration checks for damage. It does seem a bit disingenuous to say that it is a powered down fighter. The only thing the fighter has better is a feat every two levels instead of every five (and better feat selection). Talk to him about your concern, read the rules, and wait a few more encounters before rejecting the character. By the way, another thing about most of the strikes, that I'm not sure has been mentioned yet, is that the standard action strikes preclude a full attack action (you can't just replace a normal attack with a strike, they are a discrete standard action). That will make a difference in a few levels.
Moon-Lancer 09-30-06, 02:22 AM	the swrmfighting isn't a help vs a warblade, the full round action refills all their techniques and hits one of the kobolds. no no... think about what you just said. Swarms... bingo
sunsilverdragon 09-30-06, 02:41 AM	1d10+2d6+6 (average about 18.5 damage) isn't that broken, considering it requires a stance and TWO rolls. I mean, you could pretty easily achieve 2d6 (greatsword) + 9 (1.5x +6 Str mod: 18 [half-orc's] base +4 barbarian rage) + 2 (Power Attack with 2H weapon) (average about 18 damage) at 1st level, which is about the same. When you really think about it, and crank out the numbers, it's not that overly unbalanced.
MysteryGilgamesh 09-30-06, 12:26 PM	Most of the offensive Maneuvers require that, "A successful attack be made against the target." If the person falls to the ground due to a trip, how can they make the attack against the intended target? (And here is the key "against the intended target") Plain and simple they cannot, they will be flat on their face and will lose the maneuver they began to initiate. Maneuvers are prepared against a single target, they are not something that is transferred in mid-action to someone else who gets in their way. Just logically speaking though, when I think about what the word "Stance" means and the nature of the class being a trained Martial Class. A stance is a posture (or position) held. You have to be able to move to get into it (which is a requirement for all stances). This makes sense, but at the same time if you move too much, how can you maintain it? 1: You can still attack from prone w/-4 penalty to hit. Tripping knocks you prone. Therefore, tripping does jack vs. using a manuver besides the -4 to hit. 2: Logic has no place in D&D rules, more often than not. Your "logic", in this case, is wrong. Only Stone Dragon has some Stances which end when you make a movement larger than 5ft. Everything else is always on unless you change out of the stance, or go unconcious. Nor do you need to be able to move to maintain or get into a stance.
wonlee76 09-30-06, 01:34 PM	That is not correct. They can use as many maneuvers as they have readied in an encounter and stances are unlimited in an encounter. The provissions I mentioned previously determine how they can use those stances and maneuvers in those encounters. Well, when I said "a maneuver" I meant whatever maneuvers they had prepared before the fight. I guess it is a bit ambiguous but it was intended to mean if you have 10 maneuvers ready, once you use one of those maneuvers in a fight, its gone for the rest of the fight. You can't ready several slots with the same exact maneuver so you could repeat the combo that might be causing a DM problems. That's why I recommended encounters involving several enemies since a 1 trick combo will have less of an effect in the fight compared to 1 bad guy vs. the group.
Roxlimn 09-30-06, 02:01 PM	Only Stone Dragon stances usually stipulate that they end when you are moved or move more than 5' in a round. Dance of the Spider and Balance on the Sky both require a free hand. Balance on the Sky and Rising Phoenix both end when you end up more than 5 or 10 feet from a supporting surface. Immortal Fortitude ends after you make 3 Fortitude saves. That's about it. Punishing Stance has no movement restrictions. Low AC matters at low levels. Warblades usually have no useful distance attacks other than thrown weapons. Duel of Wills is only used once per encounter. Maneuvers have to be readied to be used, you can only ready them once, and require a round not using a maneuver or changing a stance in order to recover.
fatal error 09-30-06, 02:36 PM	To the OP. • Readied tactics against maneuvers....ie...the enemy says, "The moment he moves towards so and so I will run over there and trip them." This may prevent a maneuver from happening, due to stopping the initiation of the maneuver. This is one of the best things you can do to combat a Warblade No, this doesn't work. There are two ways I can see interpreting what you are saying: A) You knock him prone once he is next to his target, in which case he can still make an attack, but at -4. B) You knock him prone while he is moving to his target, but that was his move action, and he doesn't have to declare his standard action along with his move action. So unless his maneuver was a charge, he can still decide to change what he had planned to do with his standard action, because he hasn't taken it yet. Finally, you can only move 5ft and perform a readied action other than movement. So no, "run over to him and trip him." 4. Stances are Stances • They must remain in the stance to get the benefits. (Generally speaking this means if they move they do not get the benefit of it anymore; some stances allow them to move with additional speed, most however state if they move more than 5 feet away the stance ends. So a stance that gives bonuses to AC or attacks must be maintained in the square they took them in or they can only move 5 feet to keep it most of the time. I have seen many get into a stance and somehow it continued with them as they were chasing an opponent. Also, usually the bonuses from a stance apply to one opponent and that opponent only and negatives against others, likewise they also give other opponents bonuses against the warblade thus giving them a better opportunity for attacks against the person in the stance. This tactic is very useful when going up against a warblade.) • If they are rendered helpless, pushed away 5 feet, or knocked prone the stance ends. As the last several posts have said, this is hardly true for the majority of stances, and is in no way universal to stances. 6. Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance: A bonus and a curse • Despite what some people have said when you read the book you will see it specifically mention (in its own words), Maneuvers/Stances are not magical even though their effects appear to be. It comes from their Ki like a monks attack does. As such they do not bypass damage reduction, unless specifically stated in the maneuver/stance. With this throw monsters against the warblade that are affected only by magical means, this will ruin any warblades day. Ie “Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic...” They would have no effect on the vampire until points of damage was counted off from the attack. The plus side to this is since maneuvers are supernatural or extraordinary abilities, they are not magical and will work in an anti-magic field etc and will affect creatures who have spell resistance to the full effect. Well, this 'solution' happens to also lock down the barbarian who depends on physical damage too. So, not sure how this will help. 7. Maneuvers and Saving Throws: Another HUGE thing players neglect to do. Many maneuvers offer the opponent a saving throws which if overcome means they suffer no effect from the maneuver or take or a partial effect. The maneuver is expended no matter what outcome. The majority of maneuvers, and certainly most of the Warblade's maneuver, actually do not have saving throws. Some of them do, like the immobilizing strikes from stone dragon, but not all that many overall. So, you know, 50/50 isn't bad.
Mandarbgrim 10-02-06, 10:23 AM	I had a conversation with a player that also DM's about it last night <He made a warblade as his backup character.>. They seem particurly powerful from lvls 1-5, but their main strength seems to be against single enemies <As noted.>. A balancing consideration in the future is after 6th lvl it usually won't be able to fully use its iterative attacks effectively. The current situation for yourself is that the player's AC, Movement/manuever, or saves have to be hurting if not most of them. Unless ability scores are too high <Which has nothing to do with the balance of the class.> then he has to be making sacrifices in some area that a comparable Barbarian or Fighter wouldn't be presenting such weaknesses in.
Psifon 10-02-06, 12:40 PM	Another thing to consider is that many of his maneuvers are standard actions. This means that he will have to choose between making a single attack with extra goodness or doing his full iterative routine. Strictly enforcing this rule will keep the character in line. This is not a significant limit at low levels, when he has no iteritive routine, but it will become more and more of a limit as he levels. I have a player running a new warblade character in my campaign. I plan to make 3x5 cards with the maneuvers on them and give them to the player. This way, he has to pick his "hand" of cards at the start of the adventure, and he must physically "play" a maneuver card each time he does his thing. This will not only keep him honest, but it will also keep everything clear. To change his cards out, he has to declare that he is taking 5 minutes to do so. After the 5 minutes are up (wich takes time off the duration of all the other players spells, etc.), then he can switch out his cards. This keeps things simple, keeps the player honest, and uses peer-pressure to keep him from playing "fast and loose" with his maneuver options.
fatal error 10-02-06, 01:18 PM	Another thing to consider is that many of his maneuvers are standard actions. This means that he will have to choose between making a single attack with extra goodness or doing his full iterative routine. Strictly enforcing this rule will keep the character in line. This is not a significant limit at low levels, when he has no iteritive routine, but it will become more and more of a limit as he levels. I have a player running a new warblade character in my campaign. I plan to make 3x5 cards with the maneuvers on them and give them to the player. This way, he has to pick his "hand" of cards at the start of the adventure, and he must physically "play" a maneuver card each time he does his thing. This will not only keep him honest, but it will also keep everything clear. To change his cards out, he has to declare that he is taking 5 minutes to do so. After the 5 minutes are up (wich takes time off the duration of all the other players spells, etc.), then he can switch out his cards. This keeps things simple, keeps the player honest, and uses peer-pressure to keep him from playing "fast and loose" with his maneuver options. This is almost required to handle the crusader easily. I made cards in Word and used M:tG pictures for them, then stuck them in a deck protector with a magic card to give them so toughness.
shivafang 10-09-06, 01:07 AM	Make sure you know which three he has prepared (the warblade can refresh his manuevers as a swift action on his action, but without the hour+ of meditative weapon kata, it has to be the same three manuevers.) Not quite correct. A warblade can refresh his maneuvers as a swift action, but must spend his next turn doing nothing but a single attack. IOW, he can't move or use a manewuver, but he can make a single attack. If he does this he cannot re-use a maneuver he's already used this combat. Maneuvers automatically refresh at the start of a new combat.
Napoleon_the_Clown 10-09-06, 01:55 AM	Two words: Ego whip. It does cha damage. Zero cha=helpless. It's a psionic power.