Post/Author/DateTime	Post
brx 11-04-06, 02:00 PM	hey, im having trouble with the new book of nine swords- two of my players already have it, and i started using it extensively for my campaign before i realized the repercussions of it- thanks to certain high damage dealing maneuvers, i have a player dealing 10d6 damage at a time to npc's, effectively slaying an extremely well prepped out npc in two rounds- it wasn't just this instance, either, as he also destroyed an orc warlord, and a verdant prince. I haven't been able to provide a challenging combat for the pcs yet, and i don't want to ban the book because the pcs and me have already used so much- but the party's frontline warrior deals more damage than the warmage in the party. I've been thinking of implemneting some sort of maneuver resistance, but I'm not quite sure how that would work. I would be extremely grateful for suggestions.
Nitan 11-04-06, 02:04 PM	What level are your PCs?
High Octane 11-04-06, 02:09 PM	Book of Nine swords was the answer to everyone whining and complaining about fighters.
brx 11-04-06, 02:14 PM	4 are 12, 1 is at 11
konad 11-04-06, 02:15 PM	encounters that dont require hack-n-slash, possibly even produces reprecussions for using that method. the answer is not what is wrong with the books. check out these articles, i found them really informative http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a
fatal error 11-04-06, 02:24 PM	4 are 12, 1 is at 11 Shouldn't the warmage be throwing out 10d6 fireballs to AREAS? Sure, save for half, but he's got rays and orbs too, I just don't remember their exact damages.
Kazeofwinds 11-04-06, 02:33 PM	At 12th level is doing 3 rays of 4d6, fireballs and lightning boltes are 10d6 AoE effects, and regular wizards are buffing their save DCs and spamming phantasmal killer. And they're doing all of this from the (relative) safety of a range, as opposed to the font lines where the Manuver users are. Also, one big enemy ecnounters tend to be trounced rather easily by most groups of their ECL due to the X to 1 ratio of actions, try using more slightly smaller enemies, or just tossing some henchmen into the encounter. I have a 7th level ranger that can do 100+ damage in one round to favored enemies, and he's only got one noncore feat that matters, Improved favored enemy. Then again, his damage is maybe 40 to anything else. Bane weapons are fun.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-04-06, 02:38 PM	Yeah, seriously. This is less about the Warblades and mare about the Warmage and enemies.
Nitan 11-04-06, 02:49 PM	Basically, you either have no Mages or your Mages have an Intelligence of...12 and cannot cast 3rd level spells. If at 10th level you can't handle 10d6 damage you're doing something wrong. A normal Fireball does 10d6.
brx 11-04-06, 02:54 PM	ok thx for the advice, but i didn't start this off because the party wizard was too strong- it's the warblade that is the problem, but i'd also like to know if maneuver resistance could be logically implemented
aekilez 11-04-06, 02:56 PM	not the point really, the book of nine swords allows even the brute fighters with massive hit dice and ac to deal out just as much if not more and gives them a few way powerful bilities
Kaligrad 11-04-06, 02:59 PM	Make sure the BBEG is encountered within five minutes of his greatest leutenant.
zzyvits 11-04-06, 03:05 PM	Why not make your next BBEG a crusader or warblade. Show your players that you can deal out damage as well as they can.
brx 11-04-06, 03:29 PM	um, i know im sounding like a total noob for saying this, but whats a BBEG?
tsuyoshikentsu 11-04-06, 03:39 PM	... This may be your problem. A BBEG, literally "Big Bad Evil Guy," is the boss. He's Sauron, he's Moriarty, he's Vader in ESB and the Emperor in Return. He's the guy that your party wants to defeat most and who most wants to defeat your party. IE: he's the NPC that's about 2 CR above the party.
brx 11-04-06, 03:56 PM	ah- my bbeg is a swordsage 2, sorcerer 6, eldritch knight 7, focusing on illusion and shadow hand, so he's never really had a problem with my brute party (dragon shaman/crusader, warblade, warmage/swordsage, beguiler/swordsage, and fallen paladin crusader). In fact, the last time the warblade provoked him into a duel, he used mislead and walked off into the woods onto his broom of flying. It really tends to be more problematic with the single opponents, and i've been reluctant to give them more enemies to fight at once because they tend to zone out when it's not their turn, and combats become long and tedious. And yes, they have all multiclassed into sublime way classes, and yes, i tweaked the rules for the bbeg to enter the prestige class
The_Puppetmaster 11-04-06, 04:18 PM	Tome of battle classes are not really overpowered. People have been complaining for a long time that fighters drop off the face of the map after about level 13, so why would it suddenly be overpowered for melee classes to be able to keep up? If anything, it makes them far more fun and flavorful to play. :D
Sildatorak 11-04-06, 04:28 PM	It really tends to be more problematic with the single opponents, and i've been reluctant to give them more enemies to fight at once because they tend to zone out when it's not their turn, and combats become long and tedious. With parties above 4 you need to give them more than 1 enemy to fight at a time or that single enemy is going to go down faster than...well, they'll go down really fast. Yes, adding enemies will lengthen fights. If you keep it reasonable (2 or 3 enemies instead of 1), it shouldn't draw out too much. Multiple enemies can help with the zoning out problem a bit if the enemies are splitting attacks. Generally players pay more attention when their characters are within the reach of a foe.
Seerow 11-04-06, 04:36 PM	As others have pointed out, the Wizard can do 12d6 with a SECOND LEVEL spell at level 12. Note: He has 4 spell levels above that at this point. You asked about Maneuver Resistance. Most maneuvers require an attack roll. Think of this as Maneuver Resistance, because attack vs AC follows the same exact pattern as spell resistance. d20+BAB+bonuses vs AC compared to d20+BAB+bonuses vs SR. It's very litterally the same thing.
Honored_Clan 11-04-06, 04:39 PM	Spellcasters are great against a warblade. They have the lowest progression of will and reflex saves. There is nothing worse than a warblade turned on to his own party. Also you should be throwing more than one npc against them. If you give a warblade or a duelist (or any one on one specialist) you are bound to get your NPCs killed rather quickly. Most of the Warblades effects only really apply to one person at a time, while others would be bonuses. So gang up on him, grapple, pin and take away their abilities while another beats them up.
Kastas 11-04-06, 05:17 PM	...my brute party (dragon shaman/crusader, warblade, warmage/swordsage, beguiler/swordsage, and fallen paladin crusader)... And yes, they have all multiclassed into sublime way classes...I think this might be your problem. Your two primary casters (the warmage and the beguiler) have both multiclassed into melee classes. From a mechanical perspective, this is less than optimal. Multiclassing a primary caster has the effect of diluting its spellcasting abilities below the level of a single-classed primary spellcaster, making it weaker by comparison. The problem is likely not that your players' martial builds are too strong, but that their caster builds are too weak. In fact, a single-classed warmage or the like should be overshadowing everything else in terms of damage. There are some other reasons why your heavily martial characters might be outshining the others. For example, the beguiler and dragon shaman tend to serve better as support classes than direct damage dealers; they often contribute by making other characters (particularly those in the front lines) stronger or by helping to control the battlefield. The beguiler is also designed to deal with encounters using alternatives to combat, such as stealth or deception. If the encounters are heavily combat-based, the beguiler might not be able to use those abilities. Others have already posted some good suggestions as to how to make your encounters more challenging.
brx 11-04-06, 05:27 PM	problem is, the pcs are all the reincarnations of jade phoenix mages, and to add on realism, we decided that they would all take tome of battle classes (i made the prestige class optional, but the flavor itself has made the campaign really interesting) as for less combative encounters, the tied back mage classes don't leave me much room ex- they needed to cross a great canyon, but they couldn't cast fly or anything else, so i had to fabricate some crap about nearby hippogriff nests, which the beguiler charmed (yes, it bends the rules) so basically, the warblade is the only non-multiclassed character, and he stands out from the rest- the fact that he deals more damage than the warmage is tied to the fact that the warmage is the only one who took lvls in the jade phoenix master prestige class-so i was looking for a way to challenge the party and lengthen combative encounters thx a bunch for the advice
ressurrector 11-04-06, 06:31 PM	Well, Like everyone else said: Multiple opponants. Also, multiclassing Beguiler and Swordsage is spread a bit too thin IMHO. As far as your warmage, tell him to take arcane strike, practiced spellcaster, or start taking JPM so his spells are worth having. When you play a caster/melee it's generally best to focus on one aspect or the other, it soulds like he hasn't been focusing on the mage part, and hasn't been doing anything of note with the swordsage bit.
Senevri 11-04-06, 06:31 PM	...You do realize that with a plain fighter and a rogue, you'd be expecting to face around... 3d4 + 18d6 a round for enemy they're fighting? At _least_? In my experience, if you have one BBEG, give him 5-6 lowel level henches. Any single critter at APL is dead as soon as the party reaches it, if they can damage it. Number of actions is the most valuable resource in the game. For fun, drop a group consisting of... five, six beings around lv7 or 8. A few sneaky rogues, some brutes - and a Bard to buff them all up. Alternatively, a White Raven Adept would work, too. Tactics, tactics, tactics... Not that I'm very good at that stuff myself, either, but... many weaker is better than one stronger. tougher challenge, longer encounter _and_ less chance of a TPK on a bunch of good rolls! I mean, your party is of the level you might consider risking throwing a single Dusk Giant against them. Those things are mean, with their +52 to damage power attack. ...That's really the kind of thing you _shouldn't_ do... but, it's a fun and scary encounter, for the DM, at least. ;)
Voldar_Mecorthio 11-04-06, 07:54 PM	The Tome of Battle is only overpowered if you're in love with mages and think fighters only exist to be meat shields. My current DM does. Anyway, ToB gives fighters the same damage potentials casters have, and anyone who argues that that's bad needs to be shot in the head. (use rubber bullets though, lets be nice.) Fighters are obsolete at 13th level, can just read a book while the wizard melts the enemies at 17th level, and can chase cats and beg for scraps in epic levels. ToB uncripples fighters, but magelovers find that threatening and bad. There's real problem with that IMO, and I am in the process of warming my DM up to warblades, who send him into a primal fury, screaming "OMFG OVERPOWERED!!" (yes, he actually says O-M-F-G, not the words, the actual letters. He is the crown prince of geeks)
SokenzanMarauder 11-04-06, 08:01 PM	(yes, he actually says O-M-F-G, not the words, the actual letters. He is the crown prince of geeks) I do that too. Irritates the hell out of everyone I know. I love it. :embarrass -Gene
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-04-06, 08:04 PM	Any opponent that can't take a number of d6 damage equal to or less than the ECL of the party is not an adequate challenge. If your baddies are dropping to 10d6 at ECL 12, they are missung vial DR (in 3.5 they will always be missing vital DR), Fast Healing, or HP. Fix this.