Books at the Table [Archive] - Wizards Community

Books at the Table [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dazzer
08-03-07, 04:12 AM I just read a post downwards of this one probably, which talks about DMing without books.

It did occur to me however; Although I rarely access them during games (I art DM)

My players use them for...almost every action they take. They know how grapples work, they know how magic missile works. They still have the book open to the page for some reason. It's mostly there in consideration to the Spell Compendium to be fair though and various other books with spells.

I do however, find it annoying. Because sometimes it takes several minutes for the wizard to take his turn because "I'm casting a spell, I just need to know what it does"

DM: "What spell, I might know, so might the other players"
Player: "Oh, it's on the next page don't worry"
DM: "What spell? I want to know"
Player: "Ahh, here it is...um...the monster gets a reflex save"
DM: "Against what, I might have specific bonuses...tell me the spell name please?" *rolls*
Player: "Acid Breath, allows a reflex save for half, evocation [acid] spell"
DM: Dude, I know that spell, it deals a max of 10d6, and you are level 8, so 8d6 acid in a 30ft cone save for half, why didn't you just tell me?
Player: "I hate getting things wrong"

I've stressed that ad-lib decisions are better for the general game-play because it allows the flow to be quicker, but most of my players refuse this option, and would prefer to have books at hand and open. As a DM, I know that a 3rd level spell generally caps out at 10 dice, or a little more for single-target, but usually just a stat-effect in addition to damage.

Does anyone have any suggestions to get players to agree, or should I just accept having the books open, and several minutes often wasted on casters turns?
Kouk
08-03-07, 04:42 AM The problem seems more about player preparedness than anything specific with the books.

Basically, if you are a spellcaster there are only so many spells you are likely to cast in a given session. Part of being prepared for the game involves reviewing those spells in advance of each session so that the game is not slowed.

It may help if you ask the player to write out the gist of each spell, sort of like the brief one line descriptions in the spell lists but with a bit more detail. What I do is write down the name of the spell, the effect, how many dice I need to roll for it, what kind of attack roll (if any) and Saving Throws and my normal DC for that spell.

Name: Brief description, # dice or effect, save type and DC for that save, range, etc.

That's usually enough (for me). I usually remember most of the details, like number of targets and the type of action to cast.

If he writes it out himself it may help with remembering it.
Kinghappo
08-03-07, 04:46 AM if you go to crystalkeep.com they have a lot of good refrence files that have the basics of things (actions you can take, spell list for individual class). i usualy print out an actions sheet and attach it in a packet that has the character sheet and a couple notes pages so all my players have all they need to do what they can with as little book refrences as possible. hope this helps
Yokomohoyo
08-03-07, 06:23 AM I myself as a player use a excel sheet for my sorcerers (I dont like wizards that much since they have to "learn" their spells every day... too much of a hassle for me :P) with the Name, Level of the spell, quick discription, DC for it and the Save if any.

As a DM what I did was Make a "Spell Book" with 13 Pages (including index, front and back covers). I hand coppies of this book to all the characters that play mages and psions. So that they can wright down their spell selections and the discriptions and what not. Its a great time saver. I also hang onto the "spell book" to make a copy of it for my records.
shadzar
08-03-07, 10:29 AM for AD&D they made a set of cards for helping casters out.
http://www.kcrew.org/~shadzar/dnd/c/9356-2.jpg

whetever spells you memorized for the day you could just pull those cards out at the beginning of the game day and have them ready to "cast from".

maybe your players should do this. not only for casters, but feats etc this would probably help a lot too.

would save from flipping through many pages when trying to keep things moving. also gives casters or anyone else to prepare this stuff in their down time. say the caster is sleeping while others are doing something, or he is off somewhere while the rest of the party in active with the DM. any time the person is not currently invovled directly with what is going on.
Lormador
08-03-07, 11:53 AM Institute a timer on player actions, count down from 10 to let them announce their action and start performing it. If they don't make it, the character hesitates until after the next action is resolved.

You'll find the player knows what spell he wants to cast much more quickly if you count down. Funny how well it works!

What can be worse is summoned monsters. If the player summons something and cannot resolve its attack with the same countdown, the summoned creature could hesitate as well.

I let my players flip through the books if they wish, but when push comes to shove sometimes the spellcasters sputter and hesitate incoherently as the fighters spring into action. Within a few games, the spellcasters get the hang of it and cast quickly and efficiently.
Paladin_Hiroshi
08-03-07, 12:05 PM I have a pack of cards with the spells available to my character on. I make a smaller deck with the ones available on that day. I saves a hell of a lot of time. The cards have all the info needed, some fluff, and a cute little picture too! ;)
Forgarn
08-03-07, 12:17 PM I do a combo of the last two posts. I have created my "spell book" in the form of cards (Excel spreadsheet printed on inexpensive card stock). I have everything listed from the source book on the card (including the reference book and the page). Then I use small paper clips to show the number of time I have this spell memorized. As I cast it, I remove a paperclip. When it has no more paperclips on it, I no longer have it memorized.

The cards help in that it has all the info from the book and I can pass the card to the DM if they have questions and not have to worry about the DM trying to find it in his book or trying to pass an open book around the table.

We have also instituted a 6 second rule. Once it is your turn, you have 6 second to state your action. If you don't do it within those 6 seconds, you are considered holding action and we move on to the next person.
Lormador
08-03-07, 12:24 PM The timing rule is very effective. Imagine how frustrated the players would be if the DM couldn't adjudicate the monster and NPC actions immediately and seamlessly. The timing rule applies to the DM as well!

I bet you learned those organization habits from a DM and other players who were really on top of their game, both because they could resolve complex rule situations quickly and because they were mature enough not to argue about the details in the midst of the action.
mtbOgre
08-03-07, 12:29 PM Does anyone have any suggestions to get players to agree, or should I just accept having the books open, and several minutes often wasted on casters turns?

We try to keep the game flowing. DM goes around the table and when your initiative comes up if you don't have an action ready to go then we just keep cruising around the table. When the player eventually gets her stuff together and then she can do whatever.

DM: "Saphira it's your turn"
Saphira's Player: "Hold on I'm looking up the spell"
DM: "Ulfgar you're up"
Ulfgar stabs bad guy
DM: "Maxwell you're turn"
Maxwell misses bad guy
Saphira's Player: "Ok, I cast magic missile at the evil cleric"
DM: "Ok, roll your damage"

I've found that if you just don't wait then people stop expecting you to wait. If they lag too much then they miss the round entirely. It's called indecision. A combat round is 6 seconds, spending 3 minutes to figure out what a character is doing in 6 seconds is not reasonable.
Forgarn
08-03-07, 12:32 PM The timing rule is very effective. Imagine how frustrated the players would be if the DM couldn't adjudicate the monster and NPC actions immediately and seamlessly. The timing rule applies to the DM as well!

I bet you learned those organization habits from a DM and other players who were really on top of their game, both because they could resolve complex rule situations quickly and because they were mature enough not to argue about the details in the midst of the action.

Actually no, I came up with that on my own and now most of the players that play spell casters (both arcane and divine) use it. It is a simple Excel template.
shadzar
08-03-07, 12:37 PM We try to keep the game flowing. DM goes around the table and when your initiative comes up if you don't have an action ready to go then we just keep cruising around the table. When the player eventually gets her stuff together and then she can do whatever.

DM: "Saphira it's your turn"
Saphira's Player: "Hold on I'm looking up the spell"
DM: "Ulfgar you're up"
Ulfgar stabs bad guy
DM: "Maxwell you're turn"
Maxwell misses bad guy
Saphira's Player: "Ok, I cast magic missile at the evil cleric"
DM: "Ok, roll your damage"

I've found that if you just don't wait then people stop expecting you to wait. If they lag too much then they miss the round entirely. It's called indecision. A combat round is 6 seconds, spending 3 minutes to figure out what a character is doing in 6 seconds is not reasonable.

so you automatically force a hold action onto an unready player?

seems a feasible of doing things in some instances.

seems the player should know their spells better maybe putting page numebrs beside the to be able to find them quicker would help if they dont use some sort of quick reference cards.

i know i would get frustrated enough if i was slowing down and being forced to go to the end of the line that i would start getting things better organized to be ready when my turn comes up when playing a character.
rkr1970
08-03-07, 12:46 PM If I have a player who habitually, and only if it's habitual, stops the action to reference a book during their own turn, I will begin not allowing them their place in the initiative cycle. They are "holding action" until they are ready to perform their chosen action. I had one player miss 5 rounds this way. Everyone else had long since figured out how to check the books on other people's turns. If the player keeps looking up the same rule, even after this, I ask them to either write it down and keep it with their character sheet or to no longer use the rule, be it a spell, feat, or even a skill (Yes, I actually made one player go an entire session without the jump skill. He made sure to write it down for the next game).

I don't like the idea of a timed turn. It's too easy for someone to be all ready with exactly the right spell, only to have the results of the turn before his change the situation enough to warrant a whole new strategy. If a normally-well-prepared player needs to take a few minutes on such an occasion, I will be happy to call a smoke break while he rifles through the rules to find what he needs. As for rules flash cards, they can work, but honestly, those already under-prepared players will still tend to have a problem with them. I made some for one player and he kept misplacing the one he wanted just as he was about to cast a spell. He wasn't with our group much longer...
Forgarn
08-03-07, 03:09 PM It wasn't rules it was the spells. It saves having to rifle through 7 different books.

If the floundering/strategy-change is a once and a while thing I agree. However, I was finding myself taking too much time each and every turn that I was doing something different (that same spell all the time becomes engrained in the brain after the 3rd time), as were other players. The timed turn makes sure that you and your players are paying attention to the action going on before them. And I for one and not above saying "hold action" to see how things turn out and then act.
mtbOgre
08-03-07, 03:35 PM so you automatically force a hold action onto an unready player?
Pretty much yes. We don't actually time people but if they hesitate too long or get all indecisive then it's reasonable to assume their character is likewise indecisive.

Spell cards or printouts or whatever it takes. It's unfair of people who play casters to slow down the table because they don't prepare.
seems a feasible of doing things in some instances.

seems the player should know their spells better maybe putting page numebrs beside the to be able to find them quicker would help if they dont use some sort of quick reference cards.

i know i would get frustrated enough if i was slowing down and being forced to go to the end of the line that i would start getting things better organized to be ready when my turn comes up when playing a character.
Well they certainly get the point in a hurry. We had people who were actually getting up from the table for snacks or whatever during combat "Give me a holler when my turn comes up". Those we don't even hold, if you ain't at the table you miss a turn.
shadzar
08-03-07, 03:52 PM Spell cards or printouts or whatever it takes. It's unfair of people who play casters to slow down the table because they don't prepare.

all the more a reason why they should do things in order to get better organized BEFORE the game.

they know which spells they use most often. they can make themselves an easier way of accessing that information than fumbling through the books when it comes time to need the spell. theoretically they should know the spells they use most often without needing to look them up so often.

and anyone looking up Magic Missile and its effects should be taken out back very quietly and beaten with a wet noodle.
MSW
08-03-07, 04:09 PM I agree with the others, when you call the players initiative and ask "What do you do?" if there isn't an immediate answer, just declare that they hold their action and move on to the next character's initiative.

Even with players that know D&D really well, a lot of time passes between one player's turn and his next opportunity to act. By the time the DM gets to you and asks "Why do you do?" you should know and be ready. It doesn't matter if it's swinging a sword or casting a spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dazzer 08-03-07, 04:12 AM	I just read a post downwards of this one probably, which talks about DMing without books. It did occur to me however; Although I rarely access them during games (I art DM) My players use them for...almost every action they take. They know how grapples work, they know how magic missile works. They still have the book open to the page for some reason. It's mostly there in consideration to the Spell Compendium to be fair though and various other books with spells. I do however, find it annoying. Because sometimes it takes several minutes for the wizard to take his turn because "I'm casting a spell, I just need to know what it does" DM: "What spell, I might know, so might the other players" Player: "Oh, it's on the next page don't worry" DM: "What spell? I want to know" Player: "Ahh, here it is...um...the monster gets a reflex save" DM: "Against what, I might have specific bonuses...tell me the spell name please?" rolls Player: "Acid Breath, allows a reflex save for half, evocation [acid] spell" DM: Dude, I know that spell, it deals a max of 10d6, and you are level 8, so 8d6 acid in a 30ft cone save for half, why didn't you just tell me? Player: "I hate getting things wrong" I've stressed that ad-lib decisions are better for the general game-play because it allows the flow to be quicker, but most of my players refuse this option, and would prefer to have books at hand and open. As a DM, I know that a 3rd level spell generally caps out at 10 dice, or a little more for single-target, but usually just a stat-effect in addition to damage. Does anyone have any suggestions to get players to agree, or should I just accept having the books open, and several minutes often wasted on casters turns?
Kouk 08-03-07, 04:42 AM	The problem seems more about player preparedness than anything specific with the books. Basically, if you are a spellcaster there are only so many spells you are likely to cast in a given session. Part of being prepared for the game involves reviewing those spells in advance of each session so that the game is not slowed. It may help if you ask the player to write out the gist of each spell, sort of like the brief one line descriptions in the spell lists but with a bit more detail. What I do is write down the name of the spell, the effect, how many dice I need to roll for it, what kind of attack roll (if any) and Saving Throws and my normal DC for that spell. Name: Brief description, # dice or effect, save type and DC for that save, range, etc. That's usually enough (for me). I usually remember most of the details, like number of targets and the type of action to cast. If he writes it out himself it may help with remembering it.
Kinghappo 08-03-07, 04:46 AM	if you go to crystalkeep.com they have a lot of good refrence files that have the basics of things (actions you can take, spell list for individual class). i usualy print out an actions sheet and attach it in a packet that has the character sheet and a couple notes pages so all my players have all they need to do what they can with as little book refrences as possible. hope this helps
Yokomohoyo 08-03-07, 06:23 AM	I myself as a player use a excel sheet for my sorcerers (I dont like wizards that much since they have to "learn" their spells every day... too much of a hassle for me :P) with the Name, Level of the spell, quick discription, DC for it and the Save if any. As a DM what I did was Make a "Spell Book" with 13 Pages (including index, front and back covers). I hand coppies of this book to all the characters that play mages and psions. So that they can wright down their spell selections and the discriptions and what not. Its a great time saver. I also hang onto the "spell book" to make a copy of it for my records.
shadzar 08-03-07, 10:29 AM	for AD&D they made a set of cards for helping casters out. http://www.kcrew.org/~shadzar/dnd/c/9356-2.jpg whetever spells you memorized for the day you could just pull those cards out at the beginning of the game day and have them ready to "cast from". maybe your players should do this. not only for casters, but feats etc this would probably help a lot too. would save from flipping through many pages when trying to keep things moving. also gives casters or anyone else to prepare this stuff in their down time. say the caster is sleeping while others are doing something, or he is off somewhere while the rest of the party in active with the DM. any time the person is not currently invovled directly with what is going on.
Lormador 08-03-07, 11:53 AM	Institute a timer on player actions, count down from 10 to let them announce their action and start performing it. If they don't make it, the character hesitates until after the next action is resolved. You'll find the player knows what spell he wants to cast much more quickly if you count down. Funny how well it works! What can be worse is summoned monsters. If the player summons something and cannot resolve its attack with the same countdown, the summoned creature could hesitate as well. I let my players flip through the books if they wish, but when push comes to shove sometimes the spellcasters sputter and hesitate incoherently as the fighters spring into action. Within a few games, the spellcasters get the hang of it and cast quickly and efficiently.
Paladin_Hiroshi 08-03-07, 12:05 PM	I have a pack of cards with the spells available to my character on. I make a smaller deck with the ones available on that day. I saves a hell of a lot of time. The cards have all the info needed, some fluff, and a cute little picture too! ;)
Forgarn 08-03-07, 12:17 PM	I do a combo of the last two posts. I have created my "spell book" in the form of cards (Excel spreadsheet printed on inexpensive card stock). I have everything listed from the source book on the card (including the reference book and the page). Then I use small paper clips to show the number of time I have this spell memorized. As I cast it, I remove a paperclip. When it has no more paperclips on it, I no longer have it memorized. The cards help in that it has all the info from the book and I can pass the card to the DM if they have questions and not have to worry about the DM trying to find it in his book or trying to pass an open book around the table. We have also instituted a 6 second rule. Once it is your turn, you have 6 second to state your action. If you don't do it within those 6 seconds, you are considered holding action and we move on to the next person.
Lormador 08-03-07, 12:24 PM	The timing rule is very effective. Imagine how frustrated the players would be if the DM couldn't adjudicate the monster and NPC actions immediately and seamlessly. The timing rule applies to the DM as well! I bet you learned those organization habits from a DM and other players who were really on top of their game, both because they could resolve complex rule situations quickly and because they were mature enough not to argue about the details in the midst of the action.
mtbOgre 08-03-07, 12:29 PM	Does anyone have any suggestions to get players to agree, or should I just accept having the books open, and several minutes often wasted on casters turns? We try to keep the game flowing. DM goes around the table and when your initiative comes up if you don't have an action ready to go then we just keep cruising around the table. When the player eventually gets her stuff together and then she can do whatever. DM: "Saphira it's your turn" Saphira's Player: "Hold on I'm looking up the spell" DM: "Ulfgar you're up" Ulfgar stabs bad guy DM: "Maxwell you're turn" Maxwell misses bad guy Saphira's Player: "Ok, I cast magic missile at the evil cleric" DM: "Ok, roll your damage" I've found that if you just don't wait then people stop expecting you to wait. If they lag too much then they miss the round entirely. It's called indecision. A combat round is 6 seconds, spending 3 minutes to figure out what a character is doing in 6 seconds is not reasonable.
Forgarn 08-03-07, 12:32 PM	The timing rule is very effective. Imagine how frustrated the players would be if the DM couldn't adjudicate the monster and NPC actions immediately and seamlessly. The timing rule applies to the DM as well! I bet you learned those organization habits from a DM and other players who were really on top of their game, both because they could resolve complex rule situations quickly and because they were mature enough not to argue about the details in the midst of the action. Actually no, I came up with that on my own and now most of the players that play spell casters (both arcane and divine) use it. It is a simple Excel template.
shadzar 08-03-07, 12:37 PM	We try to keep the game flowing. DM goes around the table and when your initiative comes up if you don't have an action ready to go then we just keep cruising around the table. When the player eventually gets her stuff together and then she can do whatever. DM: "Saphira it's your turn" Saphira's Player: "Hold on I'm looking up the spell" DM: "Ulfgar you're up" Ulfgar stabs bad guy DM: "Maxwell you're turn" Maxwell misses bad guy Saphira's Player: "Ok, I cast magic missile at the evil cleric" DM: "Ok, roll your damage" I've found that if you just don't wait then people stop expecting you to wait. If they lag too much then they miss the round entirely. It's called indecision. A combat round is 6 seconds, spending 3 minutes to figure out what a character is doing in 6 seconds is not reasonable. so you automatically force a hold action onto an unready player? seems a feasible of doing things in some instances. seems the player should know their spells better maybe putting page numebrs beside the to be able to find them quicker would help if they dont use some sort of quick reference cards. i know i would get frustrated enough if i was slowing down and being forced to go to the end of the line that i would start getting things better organized to be ready when my turn comes up when playing a character.
rkr1970 08-03-07, 12:46 PM	If I have a player who habitually, and only if it's habitual, stops the action to reference a book during their own turn, I will begin not allowing them their place in the initiative cycle. They are "holding action" until they are ready to perform their chosen action. I had one player miss 5 rounds this way. Everyone else had long since figured out how to check the books on other people's turns. If the player keeps looking up the same rule, even after this, I ask them to either write it down and keep it with their character sheet or to no longer use the rule, be it a spell, feat, or even a skill (Yes, I actually made one player go an entire session without the jump skill. He made sure to write it down for the next game). I don't like the idea of a timed turn. It's too easy for someone to be all ready with exactly the right spell, only to have the results of the turn before his change the situation enough to warrant a whole new strategy. If a normally-well-prepared player needs to take a few minutes on such an occasion, I will be happy to call a smoke break while he rifles through the rules to find what he needs. As for rules flash cards, they can work, but honestly, those already under-prepared players will still tend to have a problem with them. I made some for one player and he kept misplacing the one he wanted just as he was about to cast a spell. He wasn't with our group much longer...
Forgarn 08-03-07, 03:09 PM	It wasn't rules it was the spells. It saves having to rifle through 7 different books. If the floundering/strategy-change is a once and a while thing I agree. However, I was finding myself taking too much time each and every turn that I was doing something different (that same spell all the time becomes engrained in the brain after the 3rd time), as were other players. The timed turn makes sure that you and your players are paying attention to the action going on before them. And I for one and not above saying "hold action" to see how things turn out and then act.
mtbOgre 08-03-07, 03:35 PM	so you automatically force a hold action onto an unready player? Pretty much yes. We don't actually time people but if they hesitate too long or get all indecisive then it's reasonable to assume their character is likewise indecisive. Spell cards or printouts or whatever it takes. It's unfair of people who play casters to slow down the table because they don't prepare. seems a feasible of doing things in some instances. seems the player should know their spells better maybe putting page numebrs beside the to be able to find them quicker would help if they dont use some sort of quick reference cards. i know i would get frustrated enough if i was slowing down and being forced to go to the end of the line that i would start getting things better organized to be ready when my turn comes up when playing a character. Well they certainly get the point in a hurry. We had people who were actually getting up from the table for snacks or whatever during combat "Give me a holler when my turn comes up". Those we don't even hold, if you ain't at the table you miss a turn.
shadzar 08-03-07, 03:52 PM	Spell cards or printouts or whatever it takes. It's unfair of people who play casters to slow down the table because they don't prepare. all the more a reason why they should do things in order to get better organized BEFORE the game. they know which spells they use most often. they can make themselves an easier way of accessing that information than fumbling through the books when it comes time to need the spell. theoretically they should know the spells they use most often without needing to look them up so often. and anyone looking up Magic Missile and its effects should be taken out back very quietly and beaten with a wet noodle.
MSW 08-03-07, 04:09 PM	I agree with the others, when you call the players initiative and ask "What do you do?" if there isn't an immediate answer, just declare that they hold their action and move on to the next character's initiative. Even with players that know D&D really well, a lot of time passes between one player's turn and his next opportunity to act. By the time the DM gets to you and asks "Why do you do?" you should know and be ready. It doesn't matter if it's swinging a sword or casting a spell.