Post/Author/DateTime	Post
weepingminotaur 06-01-07, 01:48 PM	Hey all, There are a whole lot of dead feats in the Player's Handbook that none of my players has ever taken, mostly consisting of feats that give a +2 bonus to two related skills (Deceitful, Investigator, etc.). So last night I got to thinking about modifying those feats to make them more worthwhile. Here are a few different types of altered feats I came up with: Example 1: Alertness You get a +2 bonus on Listen checks and Spot checks. Additionally, you get a +1 bonus on Will saves to disbelieve illusions and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves to avoid enemy spells. Example 2: Acrobatic You get a +2 bonus on Jump checks and Tumble checks. Additionally, you gain the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick, even if you do not meet the prerequisites, and this skill trick does not count toward your normal skill-trick limit. Example 3: Investigator You get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks and Search checks. Additionally, the time you spend on Gather Information checks is halved. You also gain the Listen to This skill trick, even if you do not meet the prerequisites, and this skill trick does not count toward your normal skill-trick limit. Example 4: Self-Sufficient You get a +2 bonus on all Heal checks and Survival checks. Once per day, when you treat a character for poison or disease, you may add 10 to your Heal check. Once per day, when you attempt to keep from getting lost or predict the weather 24 hours in advance, you may add 10 to your Survival check. What do you think? Has anyone had success doing their own modifications to these feats, and if so, what was your approach? I welcome any input here.
Dorquemada 06-01-07, 02:27 PM	I think that this is a terrific idea. Those feats, as written, are only ever useful if the only book you're using is the Player's Handbook. These would be especially welcome to characters with class bonus feats that can only be drawn from that type of feat. Now, I dare you to think up a way to make Toughness useful in the long-term.
Acarg51 06-01-07, 02:40 PM	Perhaps: Toughness Benefit: You gain +3 hit points. In addition, whenever you are dying and roll a d% to become stable, increase your chance of becoming stable by 10%. Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
weepingminotaur 06-01-07, 02:43 PM	I Now, I dare you to think up a way to make Toughness useful in the long-term. Hmm. :) How about this: Toughness You gain +3 hit points. Additionally, you gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves to resist poison or disease. Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
Onikani 06-01-07, 02:43 PM	Now, I dare you to think up a way to make Toughness useful in the long-term. Really Improved Toughness You gain an additional 2hp per level (or hit dice) of your character. Now it's almost useful... :D
Sunic_Flames 06-01-07, 02:47 PM	I think that this is a terrific idea. Those feats, as written, are only ever useful if the only book you're using is the Player's Handbook. These would be especially welcome to characters with class bonus feats that can only be drawn from that type of feat. Now, I dare you to think up a way to make Toughness useful in the long-term. 3 + HD HP, as in 4 at level 1, 5 at 2... :P Also, you could just make them half feats, in other words at any point where you can freely choose a feat you can either pick one good one (and I think at least most know what those are) or 2 subpar ones for that slot. Throw the skill focuses into this group as well. Also consider: Dodge = +1 dodge AC, period. As in not vs only 1 opponent. You still must select a single target for anything else involving a dodge target, for example uses of the Elusive Target tactical feat. In addition if you can take Mobility and already have Dodge you have it, without actually using a feat slot for this. Consider it a bonus feat or a part of Dodge, whichever you prefer. Basically a level 1 human with Dodge also has mobility and one other feat, same for a level 1 fighter, or a level 3 anything else. Level 1 human fighters have 2 others, but say... a level 1 elf wizard with Dodge does not get Mobility even though he could have 2 feats, because 1 must be Scribe Scroll and therefore cannot possibly be Mobility. All craft feats are now a single feat, unimaginatively named Craft Items. The individual types still maintain their caster level prerequisites, therefore a level 1 can still only scribe scrolls, a level 2 can also brew potions, and so forth. The various TWF and TWD feats are now a single feat for each. BAB requirements and such still apply, so you need 6 for a second offhand attack, 11 for a third... you get the idea. Single martial weapon profiencies can be obtained by practicing with the weapon for 1 week and then rolling a DC 10 Intelligence check, success indicates you can now use it properly. Exotic weapons can be done the same way but the DC is 12. If you fail this check you can try again. Special: Fighters and fighters alone need half this time. A fighter and a fighter alone who has Weapon Focus in a weapon also gains the benefit of Weapon Specialization at 4th level, Greater Weapon Focus at 8th level, and Greater Weapon Specialization at 12th level. These do not require feat slot uses, they are automatic upgrades. Only fighter levels count for this purpose. That's all of em off the top of my head. All of these I employ in any games I run, and some people I know adopt at least most of them into theirs as well.
weepingminotaur 06-01-07, 02:50 PM	I was also thinking of boosting Weapon Focus by adding that a character with Weapon Focus in a specific weapon can sheathe that weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity. A tad underpowered, I know, but it would at least provide a potentially useful ability to offset the utter weakness of WF in the first place.
Nor'Morgwae 06-01-07, 02:53 PM	This might be better in the Skills and Feats section of the boards: http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19 Well, the main draw of the +2/+2 feats is just to max out a skill, so they will usually get taken alongside Skill focus for a whopping +5 to a single skill. I had actually never though about making them useful for something else. Right off the bat I would ask whether you are more intent on keeping the theme of the skill or the mechanics off the skill (i.e. do we want to keep the +2's or Self Sufficient, investigator and the like). I would opt to keep the flavor and toss the +2 skills. They can be replaced by a catch all skill. Skill Aptitude (General) You have a special talent for a wider range of skills.Prerequisite: 1 rank in chosen skills Benefit: Choose 2 skills in which you have at least 1 rank. You gain a +2 bonus when using those skills. Special: You can take this feat multiple times, it effects do not stack. Each time you select this feat you may select 2 additional skills. Then, we rework the feats to match their flavor a little more, here's a first draft of Self Sufficient: Self Sufficient(General) You are accustomed to taking care of yourself and can survive well enough on your own. Benefit: You gain the following alternate uses of the Heal skill. Attend Self: You may give yourself long term care, as described in Heal skill. You may not give anyone else long term care when caring for yourself in this manner. Patch Yourself: If you are reduced below 0 HP and begin dying, instead of rolling to stabilize, you may make a DC 25 Heal check for yourself. Success means you become stable. You also gain the following uses of the Survival skill. You own bootstraps: Once per day, whenever you fail your check to avoid a natural hazard, like quicksand, before making a saving throw or ability check against he hazard you may make a Survival check against the hazards DC +10. If you succeed you may avoid the hazard, although a bit closer than is comfortable.
Nor'Morgwae 06-01-07, 03:05 PM	Now, I dare you to think up a way to make Toughness useful in the long-term. I would just steal the DR talents from the Tough Hero in d20 modern and tweak it: Toughness (General) You're hardier than your fellows and can take more punishment. Benefit: You gain DR 1/- Special: You may take this feat up to 3 times, it's effects stack. This DR does not stack with DR gained from items, spells or any DR that can be overcome (such as 5/magic or 10/cold iron). The DR is low enough that it will only make a big difference against hordes of small foes but 3 damage off of every hit isn't going to slow down big creatures. It only adds some survivablity, which is what Toughness is supposed to do.
Sunic_Flames 06-01-07, 03:08 PM	I would just steal the DR talents from the Tough Hero in d20 modern and tweak it: Toughness (General) You're hardier than your fellows and can take more punishment. Benefit: You gain DR 1/- Special: You may take this feat up to 3 times, it's effects stack. This DR does not stack with DR gained from items, spells or any DR that can be overcome (such as 5/magic or 10/cold iron). The DR is low enough that it will only make a big difference against hordes of small foes but 3 damage off of every hit isn't going to slow down big creatures. It only adds some survivablity, which is what Toughness is supposed to do. 3 feats or Adamantine Full Plate... Hmmm...
fatal error 06-01-07, 03:18 PM	If using Complete Scoundrel, you could have each of those feats give an extra skill trick for one of the two skills. Right? (I don't own Complete Scoundrel myself)
Noon 06-01-07, 03:19 PM	To the original poster - basicly no one picks those feats because the results are entirely predictable - you get a bonus. That's it. It doesn't involve any futher choices - it's like making a choice to stop making choices. While feats like cleave still involve alot of manouvering choices. On toughness, just give it a buy out cost "At third level or beyond, the character can spend X amount of experience to drop toughness and choose another feat to replace it"
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 06-01-07, 03:41 PM	Problem with that though is toughness gets used as an 'entrance fee' feat to get into certain prcs, typicaly the ones that need it least.
trapspringer 06-01-07, 03:48 PM	I used to use that argument a lot. I am now, however, quite convinced that it doesn't even matter. Those classes are all old enough that the power curve has left them in the dust. It was at one point an issue. I don't think it is any longer. +2/+2 feats, on the other hand, shouldn't be boosted too much because they have synergy with skill focus and anything else that boosts skills. It's kinda' like, you know how an eighteen is better than two fourteens? Same thing. By the time a person would take a +2/+2 feat right now, it'd be like that little bump from a seventeen to an eighteen. It's already always the best choice under a few circumstances. I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying you should consider the implications of a min-maxed diplomat-dude. Now consider something similar being possible with other skills, too. A man who can solve all his problems by jumping, for example. Epic Craft (underwater basket weaving) at level two. The end is nigh!
danielinthewolvesden 06-01-07, 03:51 PM	Make them +2, +2, +2 feats, like the background feats in Faerun. In other words, three skills.
Enderlaand 06-01-07, 04:37 PM	Rather than modify these feats, why not create new, better feats that use these "skill" feats as prerequisites. I just thought of this on the fly so I don't have any examples, but maybe some other people can think of some.
risner 06-01-07, 04:41 PM	\What do you think? Has anyone had success doing their own modifications to these feats, and if so, what was your approach? I welcome any input here. Don't modify them, add new ones with different names that are better. If you modify them, you create balance problems. They are designed to be weak, so if you make purposefully weak feats stronger, then you need to deny all PrC and all other feats that depend on those feats from being taken.
Noon 06-01-07, 04:44 PM	Problem with that though is toughness gets used as an 'entrance fee' feat to get into certain prcs, typicaly the ones that need it least. But it's not an entrance fee - if you require toughness for the prcs, then if you remove it latter to fail to qualify for the prcs. You can't just get in and then remove it yet still keep the prcs.
tricky_bob 06-01-07, 04:47 PM	I'd make Skill Focus +5 and the +2/+2's into +3/+3 instead. The only time I've concidered both for the same skill is when making a Rogue with Use Magic Device where every point counts as early as possible.
Nor'Morgwae 06-01-07, 05:19 PM	3 feats or Adamantine Full Plate... Hmmm... And you can replace a +2/+2 feats with an item for 1600 gp or get +4 to the one skill you wanted the feat for anyway for the same price. 8k gp sword out damages weapon focus and specialization. Magic is better than feats. What's your point? Do you think the feats should stack with the armor? back on topic: You could also just give each of the feats 1 reroll for one of the 2 skills on them (so investigator could reroll either 1 gather information or 1 search check per day). That would up their power without changing them too much.
Sunic_Flames 06-01-07, 05:32 PM	And you can replace a +2/+2 feats with an item for 1600 gp or get +4 to the one skill you wanted the feat for anyway for the same price. 8k gp sword out damages weapon focus and specialization. Magic is better than feats. What's your point? Do you think the feats should stack with the armor? back on topic: You could also just give each of the feats 1 reroll for one of the 2 skills on them (so investigator could reroll either 1 gather information or 1 search check per day). That would up their power without changing them too much. Skill boosting feats are crap for precisely the reason you stated. Though if you made it two items it'd be 400 gp each for 800 gp total. Focus and specialization aren't so good, but they at least stack with the aforementioned sword. My point is that DR x/- from basically being a tough bastard should stack with any other DR x/- that is innate to you such as say... from being a barbarian as well as the highest item or otherwise non inherent bonus as normal. Making the guy who took your toughness 3 times, is wearing adamantine medium armor, and is a high level barbarian have DR 10/- for example. Which at level 19 for the cost of 3 feats is hardly game breaking. Oh and feats are generally lackluster and uninteresting, making only a little difference overall. But some are better than others, and some actually let you do interesting things instead of just adding a 1 or 2 to a roll, but for the most part feats as written are on par with cantrips. Either way they have to be used for something, but it still doesn't make much sense, considering something you only get 7 of under normal circumstances at most should be good. Read this as: More multipurpose/tactical/creative but useful type feats.
zzo38 06-01-07, 05:41 PM	Somebody once said that somebody might actually take the +2/+2 feats if they were Minor feats (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=846702). Minor feats are an interesting idea - somebody might actually take those +2/+2 feats this way.
Edymnion 06-01-07, 05:50 PM	Honestly, not all feats are meant for the players. Especially at lower levels, these feats are very nice to give NPCs. For example, Toughness is +3 hp, sucks for a PC who will get loads of hitpoints over the levels. Give that to an NPC Sorcerer, and you likely just doubled his hitpoints. Dirty Fighting, +1d4 damage if thats the only attack you make. Big whoop, its useless the instant you get a second attack. Give it to a lvl 1 Fighter and suddenly you've got a grun that hits like a fighter, but deals damage like a sneak attacking rogue. Same with these feats. They're excellent feats to give an NPC.
Nor'Morgwae 06-01-07, 06:06 PM	Sunic_Flames: I see what you mean. I usually thorw the stacking limit on there more as a 'just in case' than because it is actually necessary. So I could drop that from the feat. Do you think think it needs the 3 time cap or should the cap be raised/removed? Without the cap a human who took nothing else could have a DR of 5/- at level 10 and 8/- at 18 if he took no other feats. A Human fighter level 20 could have DR 19/- if he took no other feats. That's a lot but they wouldn't be doing sod else and a caster is still going to fry them with energy damage. Okay, I really don't want to derail weepingminoraur's thread so if I have any more questions I'll just start a new one in Skills and Feats.
ArchonJohn 06-01-07, 06:19 PM	Improved Toughness is already a sexy feat - rarely is a character made which does not include it. (It's like a free +2 con!) I do believe that if feats were made that used the +2/+2 feats as prerequisites it would solve the entire problem. Is good plan.
allenchan 06-01-07, 06:24 PM	Improved Toughness is already a sexy feat - rarely is a character made which does not include it. (It's like a free +2 con!) I do believe that if feats were made that used the +2/+2 feats as prerequisites it would solve the entire problem. Is good plan. Uhm, in your games, maybe. I rarely see it taken (except for quickly made npcs), its certainly not popular on the CO boards.
Deep Blue 9000 06-01-07, 06:36 PM	You should check out what the new star wars edition is doing to the skill feats. As I recall skill focus is now +5.
Nor'Morgwae 06-01-07, 07:17 PM	You should check out what the new star wars edition is doing to the skill feats. As I recall skill focus is now +5. That's true, but skills work rather differently in Saga edition. All skills increase as you level and you have a selection of trained skills that have a +5 bonus. I like the way they streamined it but retrofitting it into D&D would take some work, especially with the condensed skill list in Saga. Not that I don't intend to do just that, it's just that I don't think it's quite what weepingminotaur is looking for.
Meikle_641 06-01-07, 08:02 PM	Personally, I'd do it like so: All +2/+2 feats (Acrobatic, Stealthy, Alertness, etc) now act as the following ATHLETIC [GENERAL] Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Climb checks and Swim checks. Climb and Swim ranks cost 1 skill point, even if these skills are cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same (And optionally) Special: For every 5 ranks of [Insert Skill] or [Insert Skill] you gain an additional +1 bonus to that skill. The first part of my way lets it work much like Guerilla Warrior and Guerilla Scout from "Heroes of Battle". Seems to me it'd make the worth taking for folks like Fighter (Hello Spot and Listen!).
danielinthewolvesden 06-01-07, 08:16 PM	Uhm, in your games, maybe. I rarely see it taken (except for quickly made npcs), its certainly not popular on the CO boards. Extremely common around here. CO boards do not reflect reality at all. They mostly focus on just one thing- AC, damage output, etc. And Toughness is not so bad if you really play from 1st level. For many a rogue or wiz, that extra 3 points is the only thing that allows them a chance of getting to 2nd level in the first place. True, if you are building a 20th level PC from scratch, you would never take it- unless it is a Pre-req.
Bob Loblaw 06-01-07, 08:22 PM	If I were to boost the Skill Affinity feats, I would add the line: "These skills are class skills for you for all classes you take." This would make them a great way to modify your character in ways that you want without having to make too many changes to the classes or having to multiclass just to have Survival on your skill list. As for Toughness, I would change it so that roll one die larger for each of your hit dice regardless of class, just like you were using a larger weapon. This would benefit all classes and make for some interesting choices. And you can only choose Toughness once. So basically: 1d4 -> 1d6 (An increase of 71%) 1d6 ->1d8 (An increase of 78%) 1d8 -> 2d6 (An increase of 64%) 1d10 -> 2d8 (An increase of 61%) 1d12 -> 3d6 (An increase of 62%) Improved Toughness would have to be changed, maybe simply allowing it to be taken multiple times would be enough.
weepingminotaur 06-02-07, 01:52 AM	Don't modify them, add new ones with different names that are better. If you modify them, you create balance problems. They are designed to be weak, so if you make purposefully weak feats stronger, then you need to deny all PrC and all other feats that depend on those feats from being taken. PrCs don't concern me that much. Most of them don't interest my players, and frankly, I would rather improve on core game mechanics even if it's at the expense of fringe prestige classes that players are unlikely to choose. I don't want to make these feats overpowered. I just want them to be viable options for my players, feats they'd at least consider taking, instead of filler feats for NPCs.
Splendide 06-02-07, 02:30 AM	My recommendation is to remove those feats and replace them with a generic feat. Dual Focus: Gain a +2 bonus to any two skills of your choice. I've got a character that I'd love to get a +2 Concentration and +2 Perform feat for. Its just that the couplings are only vaguely good for mainstream characters - for offbeat ones, custom feats like this would be nice. Heck, you could even make it that you can get a +1 to a save instead of one of those +2s to a skill.
alzoron 06-02-07, 03:16 AM	In our games we allow improved toughness to qualify for anything that requires toughness. As for all the other +2 feats they may be rather useless, but they still look like gold compared to toughness in a game that gets past level 2. Damage just scales a whole lot faster than save DCs
Hambot 06-02-07, 05:05 AM	In my game I make toughness give +3 hit points and "whenever you roll your HD as you gain a level, you may reroll that number and take the new result". It's worked really well. Have one tough wizard PC in the party - when those 1's and 2's end up 3's and 4's I don't have to worry so much about randomly killing him with a house cat.
risner 06-02-07, 11:35 AM	PrCs don't concern me that much. Most of them don't interest my players, and frankly, I would rather improve on core game mechanics even if it's at the expense of fringe prestige classes that players are unlikely to choose. I don't want to make these feats overpowered. I just want them to be viable options for my players, feats they'd at least consider taking, instead of filler feats for NPCs. Rock on, I am all for your goal. I just suggested you do so by making new feats with different names so you don't fall into any pit traps (which PrC is but one trap) and regret it later. If you won't want to take this simple advise which by definition doesn't harm your ability to improve on the old bad feats, then I can't make you. ;-)
weepingminotaur 06-02-07, 01:51 PM	Rock on, I am all for your goal. I just suggested you do so by making new feats with different names so you don't fall into any pit traps (which PrC is but one trap) and regret it later. If you won't want to take this simple advise which by definition doesn't harm your ability to improve on the old bad feats, then I can't make you. ;-) No, I definitely see your point of view, don't get me wrong! :) However, can you provide other unbalancing scenarios apart from PrCs? I haven't thought that far ahead on this issue, so I'd definitely appreciate whatever insight you can give.
Xaer 06-02-07, 06:09 PM	I liked 3.0 toughness much better(+1 HP per levelup). With my first game, I enjoyed annoying my DM by putting my 16 into CON, taking toughness, and getting a frog familiar(in 3.0, gives +2 CON). 1d4+5 was enough to get me up around the HP of our fighter, and enough to assure that even a fighter hacking me in my face wasn't enough to kill me. I know the feat was a bit overpowered for a no-prerequisites feat, but I think just +3 is pretty weak.
Frodo34x 06-02-07, 06:42 PM	In NWN, which uses the 3.0 toughness rules, toughness is pretty much a must have for most PvP characters. +40 HP (or even +28, or +10, depending on your server of choice) for a single feat is a bargain. I'd change toughness to work the 3.0 way.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-02-07, 07:39 PM	I liked 3.0 toughness much better(+1 HP per levelup). Toughness did not work that way in 3.0. It gave +3 hp. That's all it did.
Edymnion 06-02-07, 07:42 PM	I liked 3.0 toughness much better(+1 HP per levelup). In NWN, which uses the 3.0 toughness rulesWhere are you guys getting this? I'm looking in my 3.0 PHB right now, Toughness is +3 hitpoints. If memory serves, it was NWN that changed it to +1/lvl, and it proved popular enough that it got added to the pen and paper rules as Improved Toughness. At no point, 3.0 or otherwise, did plain toughness give +1/lvl hitpoints.