Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 05-18-05, 05:12 AM	We'll I figured I would seek the consel of the wise DMs here once more. Ok I have a wu jen and a paladin. Wu Jen insists on eating everything she kills (flavor thing for wu jen spells or something), even humanoids... Paladin has a big problem with this. Instead of doing the right thing, Paladin immeditaly begins bashing the life force out of the wu jen. Rest of the party isn't too happy, so restrains the Paladin. Paladin continues doing obviously unlawful/nongood acts and gets powers taken away. Paladin then kills self in spur of the moment decision that he doesn't want to play a paladin. -Wu Jen actually sat down, and started calculating an enemies HP once (out of character of course.) And I told him, I would ban him if he continued. -Both metagame to extremely obnoxious amounts, and continue even when told. -Neither roleplay, at all. Even when I told them this was a heavy roleplaying group. -Paladin always rolls checks even when not asked, or when a check is not relevant. And continually complains when such a check can't be made (no, your knowledge religion check can't reveal any relevant information about this badger.) Next session, I will have 10-11 players, I can spare a few. Should I boot them? On a possibly related note to booting out players, how can warm up to killing my players? I'm new, and still kind of afraid honestly. The rules lawyer always makes me nervous, and even insisted that bodaks had to study their oppoents for their death gaze attack (later disproven, but he basically made me not use their ability for that battle.)
MarkB 05-18-05, 05:34 AM	Next session, I will have 10-11 players, I can spare a few. Should I boot them? If you're the only DM, 10-11 is a massive group to handle even if they're all excellent players. If some of them aren't pulling their weight and are spoiling things for the rest of the group, boot them out. On a possibly related note to booting out players, how can warm up to killing my players? Killing players is rarely worthwhile, to be honest, no matter how tempted you are. Most people are surprisingly squeamish about playing with corpses next to them at the table, and sooner or later someone will get the police involved.
FriendoftheDork 05-18-05, 05:34 AM	Evict the players. Tell them that you have totally different playing styles and that they'd be happier in a different game. About the rules lawyer, you must make him stop. Tell everyone that this is your game and your rules. You'll be as fair as you can, but sometimes you might make a ruling that is not 100% RAW (rules as written). If they have problems with how you interpret the rules, then make them discuss it AFTER or BEFORE the game. If you give in to the rules lawyer, he will continue every time he sees an advantage for himself or if he thinks there is a minor fault on your part. This will halt the game and waste time over debating rules, making DM and players alike bored or angry. I'm sort of a rules lawyer myself, so I know how easy it can be to object at the DM if the DM allows it. That said there is nothing wrong to listen to him from time to time (if he debates it outside the game), especially if you're inexperienced with 3.5. And I also allow the players to point out minor faults and things I forget during play, as long as that's all there is to it. "Shouldn't I get cover bonus from the rock I'm standing behind?" is ok, as long as they don't push it if you say NO.
VerinBlod 05-18-05, 05:40 AM	Wow 10-11 players that's much. :eek: Maybe splitting up this group of players into two groups is what could help you. And if you don't want to boot the two problem players you could give each group one. If you're really feeling they should leave you should at least have a good little talk with them and explain them why you don't want to have them anymore. Always best to tell them upstraight. As to killing players, it happens and you shouldn't be afraid for it. It's still a game and things like that happen. If you give your party challenging encounters it's bound to happen that some characters die. But than again in my experience it's more player stupidity that kills than my DM'ing style :D And tell the ruleslawyer to shut up during play. For your own convenience read the rules concerning special attacks and abilities from monsters if you plan on useing a specific monster. This way you are prepared and can end any argument quick. Hope this helps and good luck!
snowlynx 05-18-05, 08:42 AM	Too many players already. These two are going to cause you problems in a big group, as they'll be hard to keep under control. I'd say, split the group up into two groups, but if not, don't let these problem players in. If you want to discourage the HP calculation, start rolling for HP or use advanced creatures; furthermore, make creatures look a little different then in the monster manual, and don't tell the player what they are unless they suceed on the appropriate check. (You can also limit their use of the monster manual during combat.) This being descriptive about what they are fighting might go a long way in terms of encouraging roleplaying, if the players take to it well.
CzarGarrett 05-18-05, 09:18 AM	Indeed. At that many players, a pair of players who do not conform properly being removed will not hinder the playing.
Phrennzy 05-18-05, 09:58 AM	The rules lawyer always makes me nervous, and even insisted that bodaks had to study their oppoents for their death gaze attack (later disproven, but he basically made me not use their ability for that battle.) Honestly, this turned my stomach more than the bad playing. Don't let a rules lawyer tell you how to run your game. Don't let an argument grind the game to a halt. Any rules problems can be addressed after the game. 10-11 players? Time to cull the wheat from the chaff. Get rid of the ones you don't want - get that group down to a manageable size. My god, that's 2 or three groups right there.
Draco Strang 05-18-05, 10:07 AM	I'll just basically second everyone prior to me. Boot your crap players, and give the rules lawyer a good thwock on the head. Who's game is it, after all? Besides, with that many people you could afford to split it down the middle and run two groups.
legba11 05-18-05, 12:30 PM	Rules Lawyers are really not much of a problem. You are the DM, you make the rules. They may think they know the rules. They don't. They start arguing Bodaks need to watch The Sopranos before eating lunch? Thats nice, these are Modaks. They don't. End of discussion. I encourage players to bring up things they think I forgot or got wrong. But they cannot keep it going for too long.
Bane 05-18-05, 01:07 PM	I would boot the Wu Jen and the Paladin, and probably the rules lawyer as well if he doesn't shape up. You should never kill characters. Never. When the DM kills a character, it looks like this: DM: "God lightning strikes your character. No Spell Resistance, no saving throw." *rolls every die at the table, and multiplies them to get the damage.* If, however, the party wizard decides to melee with the Iron Golem, then that's ruled an assisted suicide in my game. You don't kill characters, but you don't save them either. If your players realize that the bad guys never seem to hit them when they're at 3 HP, they will lose all respect for your game. Let the dice fall where they may.
weasel fierce 05-18-05, 01:55 PM	If they bring themselves in a situation where they get killed, then go for it. Roleplaying, and particularly D&D, falls to pieces if the players realize that you are never going to actually kill or seriously hamper their characters.
Cadfan 05-18-05, 02:07 PM	Sounds like what you have isn't a rules lawyer, its a fake rules lawyer. You can tell when the rules they're lawyering don't actually exist. Tell the fake rules lawyer, firmly, that if he has an objection to something you're doing, he is to bring it up after the game, with references. Tell him that you will then listen to his objection, and you'll go home and read the rules book and think about it. You will NOT rule right there. If he objects, tell him you will penalize exp for interupting gameplay, and that you simply won't listen to any arguments that aren't followed with text references. Explain that the game can't have huge interuptions if it is to be any fun. That will stop him from interrupting gameplay, will make sure that his rules objections really are in the rules. Also, it will give you time to come on this board and double check, so that he can't pull a fast one on you with lots of vague text references and supposedly implied rules. As for the paladin, it was horribly bad form for him to suicide his character, and I don't know what he did to get his powers taken away, but the part about killing the cannibal, I can't really see the problem there. If I were a paladin, I'd probably choose to kill off any cannibals I met too. That sort of pc versus pc confict is something you should notice during character creation, and head off immediately. Just plain disallow overly vast alignment and personality differences within the party. How vast is overly vast? Well, if its likely to lead to bloodshed, that's a clue. There's no reason why a typical paladin would go adventuring with a cannibal. So either demand that your paladin create a moral code that would in some way allow them to adventure alongside a cannibal, or tell the wu jen he doesn't get to cannibalize people, or tell one of them to play something else.
jasper 05-18-05, 04:28 PM	Yes you have our permission to ban anyone who does not play nice. Didn't you learn this in elementary school?
Acceptableloss 05-18-05, 05:53 PM	Killing players is rarely worthwhile, to be honest, no matter how tempted you are. Most people are surprisingly squeamish about playing with corpses next to them at the table, and sooner or later someone will get the police involved. Hehehehehehehehehe. My co-workers are giving me odd looks for bursting out laughing for no apparent reason.
KoboldSlayer 05-18-05, 06:10 PM	About the rules lawyer, you must make him stop. Tell everyone that this is your game and your rules. You'll be as fair as you can, but sometimes you might make a ruling that is not 100% RAW (rules as written). If they have problems with how you interpret the rules, then make them discuss it AFTER or BEFORE the game. If you give in to the rules lawyer, he will continue every time he sees an advantage for himself or if he thinks there is a minor fault on your part. This will halt the game and waste time over debating rules, making DM and players alike bored or angry. I'm sort of a rules lawyer myself, so I know how easy it can be to object at the DM if the DM allows it. I agree. You cannot let the rules lawyer run your game into the ground. Be sure you know the rules as well as you are able to. That doesn't mean memorize every book, even if he does. But be sure you have a general idea of where to look for rules in a pinch. Aside from that, make sure he knows that it's unacceptable to disagree with you constantly. Take him aside...not during the game where you'd be singling him out...and talk to him. I tell my rules lawyers two things: First, unless it's vitally important to the situation, don't point out my flaws. Write them down and adress them after the game in discussion or (preferably) email. That way, if you make a little flub up, it doesn't slow down the game in a debate, but he can point it out to you after the game so you don't make it again. (Everyone can learn from their mistakes.) Second, if it IS important, then he should bring the objection up to you ONCE. You will make a ruling on it (with or without consulting the books) and then keep the action of the game flowing. That ruling stands for the rest of the session. Be sure to write this down yourself, just a note, and look it up later. Let your players know that if you do make a mistake like that, then the ruling will stand for that game session, along with any consequences of it, but that the new, corrected, ruling will be the one going forward. Make sure: All rulings apply equally during the game session. And if you DO find a mistake, you let everyone KNOW that you are reversing your ruling for the future...don't just spring it on them out of the blue. Things are no fun when you can't count on the laws of physics, magic, and tactics being consistent over time. One thing you never, ever want to do...even if you make a mistake with the rules at a session: Do NOT try to "rewrite" something that happened in a past game. It causes mass confusion and rarely makes anyone happy, and it nullifies any good RP that was done due to that event. Even if a character died, try to work it out with the player that maybe you have an NPC resurrect them or their deity send them back on unfinished business or something if you must make ammends. Don't just write them back into existence back in time. It'll confuse everyone, you included, later.
Flushmaster 05-18-05, 06:47 PM	Boot them. If you want to establish a warning system, get an actual boot and set it next to your chair. Anybody who does something worthy of "getting the boot" has the boot physically thrown at them, preferably at a moment they aren't looking at you. The next time they're simply told to leave and not come back. Explain this new system to your players. Don't be afraid to throw the boot if somebody really deserves it (like these anti-RPing metagaming jackasses).
Fenris Frost 05-19-05, 02:09 AM	Watch out for that Rules Lawyer if he's going to spring fake rules on you. Always have a notepad and pencil with you just because it's convenient, but also to write down whatever he brings up. In general, ignore him but make the note unless it really seems important.