Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Questing GM 07-23-04, 05:34 AM	My group needs help ~! We have an inexperienced DM and he rolepays combat so badly to the point that we could sleep on the table (although we try hard to avoid that). The combat is at such a slow pace to the fact that roleplaying parts are much more quicker. Maybe the DMs is confused with all the modifiers he has to add up in one attack, or his description of combat manuevers are old and repeatatitve. We need help to make combat more interesting or exciting or else we could sleep on the table throughout combat and only hope he could pace it up for the roleplaying bits.... Any suggestions to pump it up for combat ? Anyone ???? :angel:
Nightchill 07-23-04, 05:40 AM	He's likely as tired as you are. Why don't the players chime in with ideas and describe what their character's doing (instead of the DM having to do it for every player)?
Jenny With The Lantern 07-23-04, 06:58 AM	How much preparation does he do? If he needs to add up all the modifiers etc it sounds as if he's not prepared enough.. Did you talk to him about this? Maybe as a group you can work out a faster way of combat?
Brumbleroot 07-23-04, 11:35 AM	What exactly does the DM do before each attack, could you give us an step by step explanation of your dm's aproach to the combat sequence? Then we could figure out the problem and (hopefully) help you.
Brknlf 07-23-04, 11:54 AM	his description of combat manuevers are old and repeatatitve Buy the DM a theasaurus, add post it notes to the words they use repeatatively. Maybe highlight every adverb to help him add more flavor to the action he is describing. Or like someone else pointed out, instead of putting combat description solely on him, why don't the players offer some combat descriptions to help him along. They can't say what their attack and damage looks like per say, but they can describe how they make their attack as they try to hit and damage their opponents.
Myranthor 07-23-04, 12:07 PM	A variant rule, found in Unearthed Arcana, suggest that all rolls are made by the players. Essentially, instead of the mosnters rollind a d20 and adding modifiers to touch a PC, the mosnter has a fix attack of 11+attack bonus. To dodge the blow, the PC must roll 1d20 +AC modifier (AC-10). The same thing applies with spell resistance, and saving throws. This way, the players roll all the rolls (except the secret ones). This will keep you more busy, more awake, and would also take some responsability out of your DM's hands by spreading it to the players. However, it would be easier for you to understand all the modifiers, because they will be your characters' (ie. always the same), while the DM's usually changes as the PC's enemies change. Good luck, and give us news of the progress.
Esswer 07-23-04, 03:29 PM	I am not very experienced, but I don't let my players know that. If I can't recall the modifier, or don't have them at hand on the DM screen, I make them up, or make the players find it themselves to show me :) A very good rule of thumb is the +/- 2 modifier. Usually I start counting initiative from 20 and downwards, but when I reach about 15-12 I start counting upwards again! without me noticing and the players get a lot of fun out of it everytime! I don't know why! :)
Autosponge 07-23-04, 03:31 PM	There's no point in describing combat since 3.0. You have minis. Everyone can see them. Just call the action, roll the dice, and announce the results. That should help speed things up greatly. D&D combat isn't a cut scene, it isn't cinematic. It's fast, brutal, and often deadly. The pace should reflect that. The DM needs to get animated and excited and keep things moving (have him drink a couple Mountain Dews before a combat).
PenderGrass 07-23-04, 03:51 PM	As long as someone wakes you up for your initiative I don't see what the hassle is..... My recommended solution is to take some No-Doze and wait for the experience to speed up things, or offer more help with keeping track of things. There was a dragon mag recently that had a 'descriptive combat language' that you could use - or he could use - or whatever.
Arrowhen 07-23-04, 08:08 PM	There's no point in describing combat since 3.0. You have minis. Everyone can see them. Just call the action, roll the dice, and announce the results. That should help speed things up greatly. Yeah, and there's no point in describing things between combat either. It's all just filler between dice rolls. That's why in my campaign we just frantically roll dice for ten minutes to see who wins. Then everyone goes home. Not only do we save a ton of money on supplements, but we've all found that having no imagination whatsoever has made us all more efficient in the workplace.
Autosponge 07-23-04, 10:30 PM	Originally posted by Arrowhen Yeah, and there's no point in describing things between combat either. It's all just filler between dice rolls. That's why in my campaign we just frantically roll dice for ten minutes to see who wins. Then everyone goes home. Not only do we save a ton of money on supplements, but we've all found that having no imagination whatsoever has made us all more efficient in the workplace. Nice sarcasm. However, you missed the entire point of my post--so good job there. D&D is an RPG, not a dice rolling game (nor roll playing game as so many people feel clever enough to use). Therefore, I don't spend any more time than absolutely neccessary on combat. We get the idea, move on to the story or other more interesting actions a character can take. If you really like combat so much, just pick up a copy of the most recent computer game fad and play that. Blow things up in living 3D as much as you want. If you come to my table, I'll show you some serious disdain for combat that you won't believe. As for your efficiency in the work place, I can only imagine. Good luck with that whole unemployment thing.
Board_Rider 07-24-04, 12:04 AM	Man do I smell something burning..? Anyway I gotta agree with AutoSponge on this one. Nowadays alot of gamers like to just "Hack n Slash" and I don't like combat a whole lot either...especially at higher levels. Some things that may help you and your buddies Questing GM is to imagine what you are going to do when it's your turn to keep your mind going. Additionally if you do have minis, or even just dice, to mark your characters placement as ASponge said that can help too. If your group doesn't "cheat" as ONE of my gaming groups don't (err..I least I think they don't) then just roll when it's not your turn and when the DM asks for your action, if your not doing anything spectacular, ask if a such and such number hits and give the pre-rolled damage. Combat is so passe' don't you think? Me too. Or play as they did in the 70's......rail a line..crank the Pink Floyd and LARP through the neighborhood. Neighbors can make great "enemies" and cops and be "guards". 100 extra XP to those who can avoid arrest.
UMCorian 07-24-04, 12:50 AM	Nice sarcasm. However, you missed the entire point of my post--so good job there. D&D is an RPG, not a dice rolling game (nor roll playing game as so many people feel clever enough to use). Therefore, I don't spend any more time than absolutely neccessary on combat. We get the idea, move on to the story or other more interesting actions a character can take. If you really like combat so much, just pick up a copy of the most recent computer game fad and play that. Blow things up in living 3D as much as you want. If you come to my table, I'll show you some serious disdain for combat that you won't believe. I have to disagree huge here. It annoys me to no end when people speak with such disdain to those who actually LIKE a good battle in D&D. People like this guy assume that just because someone likes battles, they are a 'roll' player and have no business playing D&D and should instead pick up a new Duke Nukem Game. That's like me looking right back at him with disdain and saying: "What, you don't like action? Hate battles? Can't stand a bit of excitement in your game? Then you have no business playing D&D. Tell ya what, go into your mother's closet and pick out the most raunchy dress you can find. Put away those dice you hate so much because now it's time to play General Hospital the ROLE-Playing Game. Your part will be the love affair of your fat friend with the cheetos sticking out of his teeth. You've just cheated on him with a 60 year old man. Time to ROLE play! Game on!" Sounds fun, huh? Nice, no-combat, high-suspense/drama game with PLENTY of role-play opportunities. I'm not saying I don't like role-playing... I'm saying that I like a balance. My favorite campaigns have had spectacular role-playing scenes as well as well described and glamourous battles. I'll tell ya one thing - I couldn't read a Fantasy novel without at least SOME action in it. Why should a D&D game be any different?
Questing GM 07-24-04, 01:17 AM	Thanks for the input guys...i hope it's gonna help out with our session tonight :D Well, as for the players, they are the hackin' and slashing type and usually are the ones that try to brush off the roleplaying scenes with quick threats and thinking that every NPC from friendly to indifferent are meant to be pushed around. ;) , altough they truly despised the video games from D&D(Baldur's Gate on the PS2) and loved the Baldur's Gate PC series. but when it comes to combat, my fellow players are mad about the modifiers and super munchkined them for extreme efficiency. it drives my DM crazy i know, but i guess its because of that he doesn't really get motivated to run it properly anymore. although he did wiped out the party once when he 'forgot' to tell us there a was a troll ! okay, for a clearer picture of the situation, here how it goes. DM : Alright, deploy your minis at this area. (Players place their minis in formation) DM : Initiatives (Players starts rollin') DM : Who goes first ? (Player keep track of initiative counts and asks the DM for initiative of his minions, Player 1, halfling tinker goes first) Player 1 : Finally after 2 hours of talk talk, we have some fun ! My halfing tinker fires his shortgun. (don't ask where that came from ! my DM allows tonnes of supplements to be used, and this came up from somewhere...:uh-huh: ) (Rolls to hit...gets a 12) Player : I got a 15... (DM stares at his laptop for AC...for a FEW seconds..) DM : You missed (Player 2 wizard, next) Player 2 : If i cast my *area effect spell* here. Would they have any reflex bonuses ? DM : Yeah, probably. Player 2 : How much ? DM : For the terrain, i say a +2. Player 2 : Hmmm....but i though it was sonic damage so i wouldn't be affected by terrain would it ? DM : but obstacles block sound .... (science talk for a minute or two WITH seconds of momentary pauses AND re-adjusting the area effect template at certain areas to identify the maximum hits he could get out of his spell) (DM next) DM : the ogre raises his axe to complete an overhead on (Player 3's character) (rolls on his laptop dice roller) DM : AC ? Player 3 : errm.....21. DM : OH-KAY ! it bounces crashes unto your armor but your shock protection from the clash prevents you from taking damage. (Player 3, barbarian/ fighter next) Player 3 : He makes a counter attack at the ogre with his great sword and yells his battlecry to the war god at the same time. (Rolls dice and gets a 17) Player 3 : I get a 32, take 15 damage. DM : 15 damage, alright who's next ? Me : ZZZZZZzzzzz....... :cloud9: Keep in mind that Player 1 and 2 are the munchkins. and player 3 is trying to role play his character pretty well, although a corny line or 2 slips out... Anyone getting what i'm trying to say ? :angel:
Xenocide 07-24-04, 03:52 AM	When I DM we don't describe combat much, that part of the game is about tactics. It's "I attack such and such" or "I cast fireball centered here". To my group, that part of the game is a tactical wargame. It's better than a computer game due mostly to variety. The questions such as: Is this all the enemy? Is the guy in the back some kind of spellcaster? He wouldn't put us up against that.......would he? Combat isn't the center of my games, most of the game is planning the next move and speculation as to what sick and twisted ideas I've come up with this week. Does the DM get the system? You mention he spends a lot of time looking stuff up on his computer. It sounds to me like he relies on it too much and would probably be better off with some index cards or a few sheets of paper. The science talk is boring. I pretty much just follow spell descriptions as written in the interest of expediency and sanity.
Lxarth 07-24-04, 10:30 AM	Usually I start counting initiative from 20 and downwards, but when I reach about 15-12 I start counting upwards again! without me noticing and the players get a lot of fun out of it everytime! I don't know why! I find this to be a very bad idea...for one: it slows combat down alot, combat goes alot faster when you write down your PC's names and there Init roles, then just tell whomever is next to go. Also, i have recently started using one Init roll for the whole combat (that speads things up a little too). There's no point in describing combat since 3.0. You have minis. Everyone can see them. Just call the action, roll the dice, and announce the results. That should help speed things up greatly. WTF?! I have been playing since Keep on the Boarderlands, and when i started all i had was a d6 (for everything!)...and i still used mini's (or at least something to show where i was. 3.0 didnt start the mini trend, its been here already Yeah, and there's no point in describing things between combat either. It's all just filler between dice rolls. That's why in my campaign we just frantically roll dice for ten minutes to see who wins. Then everyone goes home. Thats just classic...great line...i can see the game night now: DM: Okay guys, this episode of Sienfeld is really good, so on the commercial everyone roll and d20, who ever gets higher wins! I have to disagree huge here. It annoys me to no end when people speak with such disdain to those who actually LIKE a good battle in D&D. People like this guy assume that just because someone likes battles, they are a 'roll' player and have no business playing D&D and should instead pick up a new Duke Nukem Game. I agree, a good combat can make a night...just as any session filled only with roleplaying...I actually know several people who play EQ bt refuse to play D&D, they say its cause they can 'see' whats going on...i think its cause we are all Geeks. Or play as they did in the 70's......rail a line..crank the Pink Floyd and LARP through the neighborhood. Neighbors can make great "enemies" and cops and be "guards". 100 extra XP to those who can avoid arrest. Holy S:censored:T! thats so funny!
bpramone 07-24-04, 11:18 AM	I won't rant, just offer up something that may be useful. It seems like the biggest problem is the pace of combat. I have a spreadsheet that "rolls all the dice" before I get to the session. I then use those sheets to improve the pace of combat, 1 sheet for each type of opponent which I keep in a binder. Not only do I have some for each "planned encounter" but I also have some generic monsters that I can whip out at any time for when my players go off on a tangent (which they always do). This little thing (30 minutes of prep time before the game) speeds up combat about 4x. That's right, a combat that used to take about an hour is done in 15 minutes. We use the minis to determine where everyone is in relation to everyone else, but we still get to add some flavor to the combat. If anyone wants the spreadsheet, let me know. It is in Excel format. The second thing we do is remember that combat is fast paced, so there is not really alot of time to come up with a strategy in the middle of battle (a round is only 6 seconds). At the beginning of combat we write the initiative order on a big white board (an idea I got from this forum, thanks guys). Everyone must keep track of when their own turn is. If the player is not paying attention or doesn't have their action ready, they have until I count to 5 (which I do by raising my hand so they can see it and counting down on my fingers) to come up with something or they lose thier initiative. Players not within 10 feet are not allowed to talk to each other (unless the combat hasn't actually started yet), as the noise of combat would drown out alot, and even at that, the bad guys within the area can also hear. Spellcasters intrinsically know how far they can cast a spell, but they just have to eyeball the area of effect on the map. No more of, "If I place the fireball here will it hit those 7 guys? Yes? Hmmm, it will also hit my party member... How about if I move it a fraction of an inch to the left? It get 6 guys but leaves my party member out of it? OK, I'll do it there." Instead, the spellcaster finds a spot where he thinks is good and then I measure the radius. I have not heard one complaint from my players and 5 out of 6 of them told me they like it better than any system they've played in. With this system, we get to 3-4 combats a night with lots of time for role-playing. I think it creats a great balance between the two. Just my thoughts.... bpramone
Phrennzy 07-24-04, 01:29 PM	DM : Who goes first ? Here is one place where you can speed things up. Have the DM get out a notepad. Everyone roles their initiatives. He marks down the initiatives in descending order, including the monsters, with the names of those involved. Now he has a list, and HE tells people when they go: Example: 20 Halfing Tinker (Use PC name here instead) 15 Wizard (Use PC name here instead) 12 Ogre 11 Barbarian (Use PC name here instead) Once the Barbarian acts (assuming he is the last one on the list) the Tinker goes again. This is all announced by the DM. This will give him a semblance of control, and speed things up. I like a little detial to the combat, a little flavor text is a good thing. Another help: The DM should have a "cheat" card for the group of PCs. A single page with the name, AC, Hit Points, Ability scores and Skills that He will roll for them (Spot, Listen, Disable, etc). This will keep him from asking what their AC is. Here's Another: Player 2 : If i cast my *area effect spell* here. Would they have any reflex bonuses ? DM : Yeah, probably. Player 2 : How much ? DM : For the terrain, i say a +2. Player 2 : Hmmm....but i though it was sonic damage so i wouldn't be affected by terrain would it ? Player asks a question, DM answers, don't argue. Accept the mod and be done. When YOU are DM, you can rule that terrain doesn't affect the spell. Or argue after the game. Let's play! And finally (DM stares at his laptop for AC...for a FEW seconds..) It sounds like he has organizational problems. Maybe having the creatures stats listed: AC, HP, and Atk/Dmg to speed things up. Offer to help him try out different organization methods by running mock combats with him. Also, do you ever DM? If you do and your game runs faster and more smoothly, offer help. If you have never DMed, keep in mind that you have no idea how hard it is until you do it. DMing is hard work. Offer up the tips here and see if you can help him.
Dragonspirit 07-24-04, 02:25 PM	One thing to do is to make up a table of various actions that occur. Maybe a table for hit location, and maybe a table for description. You could even have slight modifications to combat (free unarmed attacks, +1 to damage if the attack hits a vulnerable area, etc).
KingTut 07-24-04, 09:57 PM	sounds to me like he is doing somthing other than combat on his computer
Drasche 07-24-04, 11:14 PM	:rofl: Funny, but sooo mean. . . . Originally posted by Phrennzy The DM should have a "cheat" card for the group of PCs. A single page with the name, AC, Hit Points, Ability scores and Skills that He will roll for them (Spot, Listen, Disable, etc). Actually, I've done this. We just haven't played in some time, so I haven't had the chance to use it yet. When I get the money I want to buy a laptop and put the PCs into a database card file. Hopefully I can find the documents for monsters as well and download it.
Nom 07-25-04, 11:35 PM	Originally posted by Phrennzy {snip - initiative list} Alternatively, have a player keep this record. That's what we do. In 3.5, the numbers don't matter much after you've set the list up; only order is important. Originally posted by Lxarth Also, i have recently started using one Init roll for the whole combat (that speads things up a little too).Uh, one roll per char per combat? That's standard 3.0/3.5 rules. You don't roll each "round". In 3.5, there basically is no round, just a continuous loop. The only times in 3.5 where you need to consider a "round" as a separate timing entity are when there is a time-based restriction or if people join the fight after it has started (in which case their initiative rolls are compared to the original ones to see where they fit). I agree with Phrennzy, though. You're DM seems to be spending too much time (and allowing the players to spend too much time) on details in combat. Players shouldn't be allowed to have time to futz about during combat. Of course, the DM should give the monsters a similar disadvantage unless they're well prepared and trained (which implies Lawful or at least Neutral alignment - don't expect a high degree of coordination from Chaotics once battle is joined).
Questing GM 07-26-04, 01:17 PM	Our DM put us in a dungeon in our last session and he had the idea of us rollin' initiative for travelling in the dungeon. So we generally moved our speed for each 'round' until my stumbled upon some undead. The sad part is that my DM was ACTUALLY using a DM's helper all this while...(after a little sneak peek). :eek: However, combat was real slow with narrow corridors and mass hordes. one player actually counted that it was an average of 15 minutes before it was his turn again ! :mymy: i've DMed before and GMed (for d20 Modern) and i know heck the stacks of paper work i have to do without a laptop. but with a prepared stats and a DM software to keep track of everything, how hard could it be to take less than a minute to resolve a round ??? :banghead: in the end he took 6 hours and we were only at the second level of the dungeon. oh, we were terribly tired to the point we requested for a 'save point', and would continue from there on...there was still hordes comin' at us...:zzz: is there something really wrong with us ?!?!?!?! its startin' to kill me ! :looloo: :angel:
Llathos 07-26-04, 01:31 PM	I've seen worse, believe it or not. I literally joined up to visit in a friend's campaign (longtime friends) and they took no less than 6 hours to resolve a single combat. Everybody was analyzing every movement, looking up every spell, arguing over everything, etc etc. It was painstaking. I literally would wait 45 minutes for my turn to just MOVE as the battles were often on huge representations of land (each square on the battle mat is 30 ft, etc). Irritating. As DM, I work hard to try to keep that from happening....for that exact reason.
LordofIllusions 07-26-04, 02:31 PM	Originally posted by Questing GM My group needs help ~! We have an inexperienced DM and he rolepays combat so badly to the point that we could sleep on the table (although we try hard to avoid that). The combat is at such a slow pace to the fact that roleplaying parts are much more quicker. Maybe the DMs is confused with all the modifiers he has to add up in one attack, or his description of combat manuevers are old and repeatatitve. We need help to make combat more interesting or exciting or else we could sleep on the table throughout combat and only hope he could pace it up for the roleplaying bits.... Any suggestions to pump it up for combat ? Anyone ???? :angel: Have him use the skirmish rules from The Miniatures Handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/965820000[/url). The combat will move along at a much faster rate. ~~~
Arrowhen 07-26-04, 08:03 PM	Nice sarcasm. However, you missed the entire point of my post--so good job there. D&D is an RPG, not a dice rolling game (nor roll playing game as so many people feel clever enough to use). Therefore, I don't spend any more time than absolutely neccessary on combat. We get the idea, move on to the story or other more interesting actions a character can take. If you really like combat so much, just pick up a copy of the most recent computer game fad and play that. Blow things up in living 3D as much as you want. If you come to my table, I'll show you some serious disdain for combat that you won't believe. Are you *sure* I missed your point? It seems to me that *you* are not entirely sure what your point really is. Is the post I quoted above meant to clarify your previous post? Because the two posts seem to make two different points. In your more recent post you indicate your "disdain for combat" and express the opinion that role-playing and story are more important and more interesting than combat. This is a valid point, but it's not the point you made in your original post. Your original post says that combat "...isn't a cut scene, it isn't cinematic. It's fast, brutal, and often deadly." This doesn't sound like "disdain" for combat at all. It sounds like a disdain for *describing* combat. In the same post you then go on to say "The DM needs to get animated and excited and keep things moving..." Getting "animated and excited" certainly doesn't sound like "disdain" to me. That would be like saying I have a serious disdain for Britney Spears, but animatedly and excitedly singing along to "Oops I Did It Again' every time it comes on the radio. As far as the role-playing/combat thing goes, I just don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive. Of *course* D&D is a "role-playing game" but it's more than that, it's a *fantasy* role-playing game. The fantasy genre is steeped in violence. It's got brave warriors wielding sharp swords, wizards wielding fireballs and lightning bolts, dragons with razor sharp teeth and fiery breaths. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that those types of characters might eventually try to use those swords, spells, and teeth to hurt each other. If I am playing the role of a fighter who has spent a significant portion of his life training to swing his sword with deadly efficiency, then I'm being shortchanged if this important part of my character's life is reduced to a few quick rolls of the dice. In fact, it might be argued that the quick, dry "roll the dice, push the mini, and get on with it" style actually *detracts* from role-playing by forcing the players to stop thinking about playing their characters andto instead focus entirely on game mechanics. As for your efficiency in the work place, I can only imagine. Good luck with that whole unemployment thing. Making fun of people's opinions is a good thing; it ensures that only the strongest survive. However, reacting to a challenge to your opinion with an unprovoked personal attack is just childish.