Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Herr Doktor 11-22-03, 10:52 PM	In the Dragonlance campaign I will begin DMing tommorow I plan on putting the following PCs, fully rested with the knowledge of what they are about to face against an adult black dragon (CR 11): A 7th level CN Human Fighter, a 7th level LG Qualinesti Monk, a 7th level LG Silvanesti Ranger, a 1st level N Ogre Fighter (ECL 7), and a 7th level Mountain Dwarf Cleric of Kiri-Jolith. The only two without ranged weapons are the Human Fighter and the Mountain Dwarf Cleric, the rest have various magical weapons. The cleric will likely be casting a summon monster IV spell at the start of the battle, so they'll have a little help in that way. Is this battle going to be a good challenged, too tough, or downright cruel would you say?
danman 11-22-03, 11:24 PM	Unless they have spells and magic items specifically designed to counter a dragon, foreknowledge won't do them much good. It's still a tough battle. I would recommend toning it down to a young adult black dragon (CR 8). It has all of the same abilities as an adult, but the numbers are a little lower. If they are a particularly overpowered group, then just modify the dragons' tactics to give it an advantge.
Herr Doktor 11-22-03, 11:32 PM	A CR 8 would be not be all that challenging to this group (though a young adult black dragon is a CR 9) there are 5 7th level PCs involved. Dragons are overpowered though, so perhaps a CR 9 young adult would work better. I really want to work the PCs to the extreme, however, and if they can actually handle the CR 11, that's what I'd prefer they fight.
Fixxxer 11-22-03, 11:37 PM	What is the surrounding terrain going to be like? Is there any way that the dragon could use the terrain or even the weather to its advantage? If so, I would reduce it down to a young adult and mabey jack the EL up a little to reflect the dragon's terrain advantage.
Herr Doktor 11-22-03, 11:46 PM	It will be in a vast moor land, which I suppose is most definetly to the dragons advantage (though the PCs may retreat into a giant bee hive not far from their locations when the combat begins). It is currently winter in Ansalon, but thanks to the warm climate in the Nordmaar region ice and snow are not a factor. Depending on how long they're exploring the bee hive and dealing with the dragons "underlings" (red dragonarmy soldiers) the weather effects vary, though it is likely they will navigate the encounters smoothly and so face no adverse weather effects.
chris7476 11-23-03, 01:52 AM	Does the dragon know the PC's are coming? If so, the PC's should be dead meat. Even if it doesn't, it's still going to be REALLY tough. Has the dragon lived in its lair a long time? Does it have allies? Dragons will have multiple escape routes as well as traps and areas that make it difficult for intruders. I'd put my money on the dragon in this one. I also noticed that the PC's don't have an arcane caster. Very bad. The dragon should realize this and take the battle to the air. It also won't have any fear of having its magical defenses dispelled. I would also try to grapple a PC and drag him underwater. The dragon would rather try to fight the PC's one at a time. Bear in mind, dragons know ALL the nasty tricks and rarely fight a fair fight. They will also make sure they have the advantage as as terriain goes.
Yen-Lo-Wang 11-23-03, 02:03 AM	On the dragon's turf it's going to be rough. Like Chris said, dragons know all the dirty tricks and they believe in the final rule in "life or death" combat: There is no such thing as a "fair" fight.
Herr Doktor 11-23-03, 02:26 AM	It's not the dragons home turf, though it is definetly a friendly habitat for blacks. The dragon is part of the dragonarmies of Takhisis and has travelled far from it's actual lair, and it knows someone is meddling, but not any exact details about the PCs. I believe I'll be using the young adult black dragon actually, though they might not get that far in tommorows session. We'll see... Thanks for all the advice/input! p.s. Chris, my dragons are always violently unfair fighters. ;)
MinusInnocence 11-23-03, 04:17 AM	I don't think the 3.5 MM addressed this, but a common consensus among WADMTD? posters is that EL for Dragons is woefully inadequate if the PCs are unprepared for the fight. And, by unprepared, I don't mean, "Oh yeah, we know there's a dragon in the cave. Why do you think we're going this way, we want its loot!" I mean, "Ok we need to cast this and this and this spell... I've done a bit of research on any sightings of this beast in the last 300 years in this area, and I've learned X and Y about its habits and demeanor, etc" If the PCs are unprepared, the EL shoots up by about 4 or 5. This, of course, assumes it is played the way it is intended - the sum of all its ability scores, skill ranks, feats, spells and special abilities. Dragons are brutal, horrific combatants, the likes of which have inspired countless tales, songs, poems, stories, videogames, movies, novels and; yes; even roleplaying games. :) It's not called Dungoens & Kobolds, for a very good reason. I'd wager your group is going to be butchered, even if you opt for the Young Adult. That's just me, though - I wouldn't leave much room for survival. Which is probably why I try to stay away from using dragons, no one hates a TPK worse than the DM. Note: I said EL, not CR. Do NOT award the group more XP for defeating a creature they simply, through lack of effort or interest, failed to research. Besting an opponent through sheer luck does not grant you greater insight as to how the fight was won. All this being said, however, yes the Adult Black Dragon would easily slay the group, but Young Adult seems like a reasonable alternative. At least the ones it doesn't kill right away will have the opportunity to run away. Maybe.
Gavril 11-23-03, 04:37 AM	I have to agree with the majority. The adult black dragon will butcher them, paritcularly if, as you say, your dragons are violently unfair fighters (which is as it should be). Your decision to lower the age is probably a wise one. Let us know how it turns out, though. I'm curious.
chris7476 11-23-03, 11:04 AM	Chris, my dragons are always violently unfair fighters The thing is though that a smart dragon (maybe black doesn't fall into this category) will save actual melee combat as a last resort. Melee is probably the dragon's least favored method of combat. Perhaps the less intelligent dragons (white, black) will be more apt to engage in direct combat but if they are able, dragons will use traps, minions, magic, etc to wear the PC's as much as possible. For example, take an intelligent dragon that uses a lot of illusions...nasty.
Herr Doktor 11-23-03, 11:07 AM	Well, blacks are known for their cowardice in Dragonlance (at least that's what the DLCS says) so I figuered his initial tactic would be softening up PCs with his breath weapon while submerged. He won't have many spells to back him up (1st level caster) but I'll generate his hoard and see if he doesn't have any magical trinkets at his disposal.
Mr.Waesel 11-23-03, 01:26 PM	Tell me how it went...
Dryder 11-23-03, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor ...Is this battle going to be a good challenged, too tough, or downright cruel would you say? Well, I think it will be quite tough, maybe too tough. On their way to the dragon, you may let the PCs encounter a few soldiers (of the king or whatever...), who are in a bad shape, because they had encountered the dragon lately, but tell the PCs, that they THINK they have injured the dragon to some extend. Now you can, with a good reason, reduce the HP of the dragon, in case the fight works out to be too much for the group. Just tell your players, that, due to the fact, that the dragon was allready wounded, was a bit easier to fight then the players might have anticipated...
Herr Doktor 11-27-03, 03:54 PM	As per usual the PCs acted differently than I had anticipated and by doing so got themselves into a bit of a mess (two of their number are in the custody of the red dragonarmy troops). Next session the free PCs will most likely attempt to rescue their capture companions and in the process will learn some useful information about what the red dragonarmy is doing in the area. The PCs also witness a large black dragon take flight from the border of the village they are in (the young adult discussed above), which is their first warning about what to expect in the immediate future. Hopefully this Sunday they will be able to battle the beast.
Al2902 11-28-03, 06:33 AM	Don't rely on CR alone. Last session I threw a gelugon (CR 13) at a party of 6 level 12s + 1 level 12 NPC...despite the fact that it should have been a 'Challenging' encounter at best (the party level is effectively 13+ due to its size), tactics and luck conspired to make it all but a TPK (three fled). Now, let's assess the dragon's key features: Frightful presence (DC 20) SR18 AC 27 199hps. +24 to hit, potentially dealing 4d6+3d8+27 damage, for an average 55 points. Saves of +15/+11/+12. 12d4 (average 30) breath weapon, save DC 23 My tactics (if I were the dragon). Round 1: Go ballistic on the cleric. Full Attack, Power Attack +4. Unless the cleric has an AC well beyond average, he's dead. Cleave anyone nearby. Round 2: Take to the air and use breath weapon. Round 3: Cast Mage Armour Round 4: Cast Shield (AC is now 35 (!)) Round 5: If breath weapon is ready use it; otherwise, melee with ranger. Round 6 etc: Rinse, repeat. Not hugely sophisticated, but then adult blacks do only have Int 12/Wis 13, so they're not Einstein. Still, it's almost guaranteed to get a TPK: once the cleric is dead, and the AC is pumped, the dragon is almost guaranteed to win. If you're concerned, run a simulation. Run a dummy battle with the CR11 dragon...if they are killed (as they probably will be), drop it down to CR9.