Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Fan 08-01-04, 12:13 PM	I have a player who can sometimes be a bit bossy. She's used to DMing and while she's a fine DM, it can be a real pain sometimes DMing for her. Though most things are minor annoyances at worst, currently I have a major problem: I was running an Eberron game over the summer semester. I'm relatively new at this and I find that I am the most comfortable within a set framework, IE: Modules. The problem is most modules assume a party of the standard 3-5. Over the summer I only had two players, so I alleviated this problem by giving them a major NPC as a third party member, basically a DMPC. I didn't like this arrangement very much since I couldn't give the character the investment he deserved AND run the game, plus the character outshined all the others in combat (I didn't bend any rules, I just have a knack for making powerful characters). However, it was the best arrangement possible at the time, so I began setting up his betrayal. At the end of the summer semester I had him betray the party and vanish, setting them up to bring in some new PCs when the fall semester starts. Now, I'm sure I've made a few mistakes up there, and I acknowledge them. My dependance on modules, running a DMPC, etc, but that's neither here nor there. I'm not perfect, so I thought it best to get it all out in the open to begin with. My real problem, though, is that this player won't let anyone else in the group. She's playing a multiclass wizard/cleric*, and says that a sorcerer or druid would steal her thunder. She doesn't want a barbarian because "they're too barbaric," she doesn't want a ranger because "3.5 nerfed the hell out of them," she doesn't want a bard because "they're weak," she doesn't want a monk because "we need a meat shield," and any psionics are out of the question because "they're hideously broken," so essentially she is only willing to accept a straight-up Fighter or possibly a Paladin. The other day she also told me that she refuses to game with half the other people I know and anyone I wish to introduce to the game has to meet her approval. I know I'm not perfect as a DM, I know I've made some mistakes, but does this seem at all unreasonable to you? How should I deal with this situation? *The multiclass is the result of having a two-person party and her complaints that a rogue and a mage wouldn't be enough. I suggested playing a wizard/cleric, moving into Mystic Theurge. Apparently this was tantamount to forcing it upon her against her will since, in her own words, "Most gms if they suggest something will kill your character if you don't play it."
Tusz 08-01-04, 12:48 PM	So, she's trying to tell you who you can and can't game with, restrict the classes the people she approves can play, and blame you for her character. Is booting her an option, or is this a "close friend" scenario? If that isn't feasible, you could offer to let her make a new character on what she would enjoy. Also make sure to explain to her that she doesn't own the gaming group, can't tell others what to play, and isn't the deciding factor for which players join.
NinjaHedge 08-01-04, 01:16 PM	why does it matter if her demands are "unreasonable" or not? I think you'd have an easier time playing without her, so play without her. Let's take a look at the pros and cons of dropping her Pros: Double the availability of players. Said players could play whatever class they want. You don't have to put up with an annoying player. Cons: You lose one player.
SevenSerpents 08-01-04, 01:19 PM	so you have other people to play with? then do it. no player would be allowed to tell ME what classes the new players would be allowed to play with. that's simply none of her business. if she feels uncomfortable with this, she's free to leave. and who are the people she DMs? wouldn't they like to play with her if she does not like your players? does she know your players? and why the hell do you think her demands have anything to do with your dm-errors?
LostDM 08-01-04, 01:35 PM	First of all she sounds like a terrible DM. The first thing I aways tell my players is "Play whatever class you want, you can always get hirelings to fill 'holes' in your party, or even better seek out adventures where the party can succede. It's much more important that your satisfied with what your playing." Wait, I just read your footnote, she is a terrible DM and only think other terrible DMs exist. I would drop her out of your gameing group purely because she might be a bad influence on you or the other players.
Rab-Ka-La 08-01-04, 02:00 PM	The times I have run accross bossy players, I bring in sereral new players and let them put the bossy player in their place. Armed with the info from the DM on what they can and can't do, most players will figure it out themselves. If she doesn't find a way to work with the new players in a group, she will leave or they will get rid of her. Problem solved. If that is not an option, see below. The obvious question; Is she hot? A female player is allowed 1 unreasonable demand per point of hotness beyond 4 on a scale 1-10. The score can then be modified 1-4 points deppending on her skill as a player and willingness for solo adventures. :eek:
Arcuna 08-01-04, 02:16 PM	Originally posted by Rab-Ka-La The obvious question; Is she hot? A female player is allowed 1 unreasonable demand per point of hotness beyond 4 on a scale 1-10. The score can then be modified 1-4 points deppending on her skill as a player and willingness for solo adventures. :eek: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Seriously though, explain to her that as the DM, you decide what your players can and can't do. For instance: Your players CAN be whatever class they like. Your players CAN'T control the actions or choices of other players or their characters. (of course that was just an example, and obviously you might choose to restrict some races or classes, as long as it's for a good reason) If she cannot understand that she, as a player, does not call the shots, then chances are that she would not benefit your gaming experience. (But, in the event that you need to boot her, show her this thread first and see if she understands what she's doing wrong) :w:
bitnine 08-01-04, 02:45 PM	Well, here's the method that I'd attempt to take. Explain to her (calmly) that you are going to let new people into the game. And that she isn't going to have veto power over their classes or their participation. Her option is to either remain with the game or leave. I'm usually fairly low-key in talking to players, unlike some people (at least claim to be) on the boards, so I'd do it less as an ultimatum and more of a, "Listen, it certainly is your choice whether you want to remain in the game or not, but I'm afraid that you don't get to..." sort of thing.
Astanphaeus 08-01-04, 04:05 PM	Originally posted by The_Fan My real problem, though, is that this player won't let anyone else in the group. She doesn't have that power, unless you're giving it to her. Important point, that. She's playing a multiclass wizard/cleric*, and says that a sorcerer or druid would steal her thunder. Perhaps she should look at characters as something more than a combination of classes. She doesn't want a barbarian because "they're too barbaric," That's out of bounds. She's not the DM. It isn't her place to dictate conceptual limitations. That's the purview of the DM. she doesn't want a ranger because "3.5 nerfed the hell out of them," Besides being a laughable assessment, that's also out of bounds. Restricting a class due to balance issues is a DM's decision, not a player's. She should know that. she doesn't want a bard because "they're weak," See: ranger she doesn't want a monk because "we need a meat shield," Other players should not be limited to playing only what she thinks her character needs, in terms of combat tactics and viability. That's just silly. and any psionics are out of the question because "they're hideously broken," Again, that's an assessment for the DM to make, not a player. The other day she also told me that she refuses to game with half the other people I know Then you have to decide who you'd rather play with. and anyone I wish to introduce to the game has to meet her approval. Uhm. No. She is not the DM. She seems to be having a hard time embracing this fact. Players have to meet your approval, not hers. I wonder how she'd react to a player making such declarations and ultimatums at her table? Not kindly, is my suspicion. Now, speaking as a DM, I consider it to be good policy to have a group vote on letting someone new in (and I include myself in that group: I get a vote too). However, that's a courtesy. I'm not obligated to do that, I just consider it an appropriate thing to do. I would take a dim view of one person trying to dictate player admittance to me, and that's what it seems like she's doing. but does this seem at all unreasonable to you? Yes. Very. How should I deal with this situation? Be a DM. State that you have taken her input into consideration, and you have decided to allow the following race/class options: . If she doesn't like it, tough. Maybe she should not try to be a player. As for admittance, I would recommend (not surprisingly) to put it to a vote. ;) There's 3 of you, so this shouldn't be an issue. Again, if she has a problem with it, she can bow out. I will add a condition to this, though. Despite her being overbearing/controlling about it, she might have legitimate gripes with some of the hopefuls. Make sure you're hearing what she's saying, not just how she's saying it. There might be some genuine, hardcore personality clashes that you'd rather not deal with, and she [I]was there first. Carefully consider anyone before promoting them to the vote stage of the process. Apparently this was tantamount to forcing it upon her against her will since, in her own words, "Most gms if they suggest something will kill your character if you don't play it." Bull. This is a dubious rationalization. Sounds to me like it's an excuse she's using to validate her decision to follow a suggestion she (allegedly) didn't like, without voicing her misgivings/problems with it at the time (something that she should've done). In short, she's trying to dodge responsibility, and I find her claim highly suspect. Given the personality you've illustrated, it's hard to believe she'd genuinely have an issue with expressing her disapproval about anything, whether she was concerned about DM reprisal or not. She seems to have no compunctions about doing it now. However, even if she did keep quiet about something, and played a character she wouldn't normally have chosen, it doesn't now become everybody else's obligation to do the same. That was her choice, and hers alone. No one else has to abide by it. No one else has to be restricted because she, months ago, didn't express misgivings about something and chose to restrict herself. That's unreasonable and unfair to expect. Moreover, whereas it may indeed be her experience that, "most gms, if they suggest something, will kill your character if you don't play it," it is not justification for assuming that's how every DM will behave. Sorry. She said (according to you): "most", not "all" GMs. Therefore, by her own admission, some GMs would not have behaved that way. She didn't bother to determine which type of DM you were. Well, now she has to deal with the consequences of that inaction. That isn't your problem, and it certainly isn't the problem of other potential players. ~ A.
Fixxxer 08-01-04, 06:22 PM	Originally posted by The_Fan She's playing a multiclass wizard/cleric*, and says that a sorcerer or druid would steal her thunder. She doesn't want a barbarian because "they're too barbaric," she doesn't want a ranger because "3.5 nerfed the hell out of them," she doesn't want a bard because "they're weak," she doesn't want a monk because "we need a meat shield," and any psionics are out of the question because "they're hideously broken," so essentially she is only willing to accept a straight-up Fighter or possibly a Paladin. So what you're basically saying is that she's only interested in classes that will achieve the most powerful result with the least amount of effort? Seems to me that we can already see where the problem begins. The other day she also told me that she refuses to game with half the other people I know and anyone I wish to introduce to the game has to meet her approval. Wow. So she's basically trying to control your game. I believe that the proper response to this situation would be something along the lines of "Hey, :censored: you! This is my game and I'll invite whoever I damn well please. If you don't like that, the door is that way." I know I'm not perfect as a DM, I know I've made some mistakes, but does this seem at all unreasonable to you? Unreasonable? She's trying to run your game as though she were in charge. That sounds a long way beyond unreasonable. How should I deal with this situation? With a firm hand. Don't be needlessly cruel, but make sure it's apparent that this is your game, not hers. *The multiclass is the result of having a two-person party and her complaints that a rogue and a mage wouldn't be enough. I suggested playing a wizard/cleric, moving into Mystic Theurge. Apparently this was tantamount to forcing it upon her against her will since, in her own words, "Most gms if they suggest something will kill your character if you don't play it." And the proper response to this situation is "Look, just because you would kill of a PC just because the player doesn't do something you asked, that doesn't mean that I'm as pathetically power-hungry. Don't put the downsides of your PC choice off on me just because I happened to suggest the course you eventually chose."
bitnine 08-01-04, 07:25 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Don't be needlessly cruel, but make sure it's apparent that this is your game, not hers.Heh. That, of course, relies on the Fixxer definition for "needlessly cruel", right? ;)
Remnant 08-01-04, 08:32 PM	If she's worried about being outshone by a single class sorcerer.. well... I mean.... that's like making a character that could be outshone by a single class sorcerer. You are playing Eberron however... if you are insistent on not making waves, you could try and sneak something like a warforged juggernaught or a weretouched master past her.
green_yawgmoth 08-02-04, 01:16 AM	Boot her, one way or another. if you can't kick her out, give her a swift boot in the rear and say "this is MY game, and whoever wants to play can play. If you have a problem with this, go find another DM." If she's that afraid of someone outshining her because she's multiclassed, maybe offer her to trade in her wizard or cleric levels for cleric or wizard levels. http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
pres_man 08-02-04, 02:43 AM	Actually if you are playing at her place and with her stuff, then she can dicate who and what is played. ;) Just make sure that you don't "need" her and you should be able to ignore any "suggestion" she makes. Don't be rude, just say something like, "Nah, I don't feel comfortable restricting the stuff like that. I'm sure it will all be fine." :D And just keep up with statements like that no matter what she says. Once she sees that you aren't going to bend over and take it, she'll either quit or stop pestering you about it.
MrkGrismer 08-02-04, 11:53 AM	Until she puts a ring on your finger, her demands here are a bit out of line.
Fixxxer 08-02-04, 12:01 PM	Originally posted by bitnine Heh. That, of course, relies on the Fixxer definition for "needlessly cruel", right? ;) Well...yeah. Everyone should conform to my way of doing things.
Kronk LaSworda 08-02-04, 05:56 PM	Originally posted by NinjaHedge why does it matter if her demands are "unreasonable" or not? I think you'd have an easier time playing without her, so play without her. Let's take a look at the pros and cons of dropping her Pros: Double the availability of players. Said players could play whatever class they want. You don't have to put up with an annoying player. Cons: You lose one player. Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Explain to her that you want to play with more people. Explain to her that she isn't running the show. Explain to her the directions to your front door. Good luck, man.
Cyricist 08-02-04, 06:18 PM	Hmmm.. this girl sounds like my first girlfriend.. She thought she'd get extra credit and immortal characters for being with me. At first it worked (oh great bliss of ignorance and naiveity).. Then I broke up with her three months before we'd get married.. one of the reasons being her constant need to worm into every game I set up and then powerplaying along as I described above.. :sad: The others here already mentioned most of what I would do: Talk to her about being unreasonable.. if that don't work, boot her behind right out the door. As said by many others: your game, not hers. :cool:
Steelgryphon 08-02-04, 06:20 PM	tell her to either make some sacrifices or to get the **** put
The_Fan 08-02-04, 10:43 PM	Oookay, a lot of people seem to assume that the only reason I'd let someone get away with this was if she was my girlfriend or I was in some way sexually interested in her. Neither is the case, I'm just a complete spineless wuss.
bitnine 08-02-04, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by The_Fan Neither is the case, I'm just a complete spineless wuss. Well... either you stand up to her in some fashion or you don't. Getting suggestions by the boatload won't help all that much if you don't follow any of them. Really, it's your choice to live with it or not.
Arcuna 08-02-04, 10:53 PM	And, if you don't wanna tell her yourself, then you can show her this thread...thats kinda like not telling her :P
Fixxxer 08-03-04, 01:44 AM	Originally posted by The_Fan Neither is the case, I'm just a complete spineless wuss. And yet you're here asking for help with the situation. Regardless of the fact that a few people seem to have assumed you were involved with this person, most of the advice has been pretty good. Ask her to stop trying to worm her way into the big chair. Give her the chance to do so. If she doesn't, kick her to the curb and laugh at her while homosexual midgets slap her around with live octopi and disbarred attorneys with a beef against pro-bono work use dead monkeys to smear hot glue all over her face and hair. That'll learn her! That'll learn her real good like!
satyrgrrrrl 08-03-04, 02:01 AM	I got all scared when I started reading this thread, because I'm a girl, I GM, and I just started playing in an Eberron campaign... I know I can get over-involved in the GMing side of the game (I try to help, really!!), but I'm nowhere near this girl! *Breathes sigh of relief* Basically, stand up to her. Tell her that it's your game, not hers, and you'll run it however you like. DMPCs aren't terrible, as long as they aren't treated differently than the other PCs. If she's making demands like that on your game, it's inexusable. I don't give a crap about whether or not she's your S.O., because even if she was, she shouldn't be pulling this. I GM for my fiancee and I play in his game, and neither of us would treat the other like that! The group has to (mostly) agree on players, because it's a group activity, and there's no way I'd let one player (even if he can shut off the love) determine what other players can/can't play! Here's what I suggest: Invite multiple people to play in the game, preferably people she doesn't like. If she makes a scene, let her, and say that if she doesn't like it, then she can leave. I don't think she'd be any fun to play with, nor do I think she'd be a fun GM to play under! If you're playing at her house, find another place to play. I kept a guy who was a complete jerk in my group because we played at his house... but I soon realized that he wasn't worth the aggrivation (man, I can't spell!) and started running out of my apartment. Or, you could drop her like a bad habit. Just call her and say "It's not working out. I'm not the GM for you." Good luck and I hope you make a better group! :angel:
Fuzzus 08-03-04, 05:49 PM	Well, I hear your problem, and it's obvious that she's trying to force you to include PCs that compensate for her character's weaknesses, and she didn't want to play that character in the first place. Out-of-game troubles -- namely, the introduction of new players -- aside (and here I recommend that you take the advice of the helpful and right-minded people who have already replied to your post), try and work out a compromise. You can work this to the benefit of the entire group, and the story. So she doesn't want to be a mystic theurge, fine. Talk to her one-on-one and set something up with her so that her character dies, heroically and self-sacrificingly (or at least according to her alignment). I find that you can compromise with problem players by making them the star, even for just a moment. You feed her ego, she gets to roll up a new character (given her touchiness, you might want to be especially careful about any guiding comments about what the party needs), and your new players get to play whatever they want, since now she can customize her character to maximize upon their strengths. Of course, this assumes that she cares about roleplaying and storyline. If she's only concerned about power levels and bonuses -- which she might be, given your description -- this tactic might be less than effective. Still, it's worth a shot, and it can make for a nice compromise. Heck, if she does her part really well, maybe you could even give her a little bonus EXP when she rerolls. :rolleyes: But I back the others who've replied completely: you're the DM. If you cave all the time, you're going to seriously sacrifice your story. That might not matter so much in a module, but if you're thinking of moving on to homebrews -- the direction I sense you moving in after you get some confidence running the modules -- it'll break your heart to see them stomping all over your grand storyline (trust me, I know). Best to learn to deal with it now, when the stakes are relatively low. Whatever option(s) you choose, good luck, and remember that YOU are the DM!
Phrennzy 08-03-04, 07:59 PM	I agree 100% with bitnine. My brother did not want me to bring anyone new to the game. I told him that I knew one other guy who was cool and would be coming. End of discussion. The guy came over. My brother got over whatever his deal was, and now we happily game together. Even though my best friend's PCs die every other week. :rolleyes: * If she's not putting out, she has no control on who comes to the gaming table (unless its in her house). Sounds like a control freak. Tell her to Shut the :censored: up, sit the :censored: down, and play the :censored:ing game, or get the :censored: out. :censored: can be replaced with heck. But "hecking" doesn't make much sense.
Fixxxer 08-03-04, 11:44 PM	Originally posted by Phrennzy * If she's not putting out, she has no control on who comes to the gaming table (unless its in her house). Sounds like a control freak. Tell her to Shut the :censored: up, sit the :censored: down, and play the :censored:ing game, or get the :censored: out. I have to wholeheartedly disagree with this. It's not that I disagree with with you that she has no say in the matter, it's that I disagree with the idea that if she's giving your sex, you should bend and allow her to have a say. That's really no different from giving a PC 3000XP because the player brought you a drink from the kitchen. In the end, it's still bribing the DM, which is bad juju. If it's her house, on the other hand, she should have the final say on who does and does not come over. That's not to say that she ultimately gets to veto who you do and do not play your game with...it's just that you may have to play it somewhere else.
satyrgrrrrl 08-03-04, 11:50 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer I have to wholeheartedly disagree with this. It's not that I disagree with with you that she has no say in the matter, it's that I disagree with the idea that if she's giving your sex, you should bend and allow her to have a say. That's really no different from giving a PC 3000XP because the player brought you a drink from the kitchen. In the end, it's still bribing the DM, which is bad juju. If it's her house, on the other hand, she should have the final say on who does and does not come over. That's not to say that she ultimately gets to veto who you do and do not play your game with...it's just that you may have to play it somewhere else. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. I had said pretty much the same in my other post, but I thought I'd quote you for emphasis. :D :angel:
green_yawgmoth 08-03-04, 11:54 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer I have to wholeheartedly disagree with this. It's not that I disagree with with you that she has no say in the matter, it's that I disagree with the idea that if she's giving your sex, you should bend and allow her to have a say. That's really no different from giving a PC 3000XP because the player brought you a drink from the kitchen. In the end, it's still bribing the DM, which is bad juju. But unfortunately, the stereotypical gamer, nay, the stereotypical male, can be bribed to do nearly anything if he might get laid from an attractive female. http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Fixxxer 08-04-04, 11:14 PM	Originally posted by green_yawgmoth But unfortunately, the stereotypical gamer, nay, the stereotypical male, can be bribed to do nearly anything if he might get laid from an attractive female. Or even a non-attractive female. I'm very glad that I'm not the average male gamer. Ah, now to get back to roleplaying Valaryia, the lesbian half-elf with the nymphomaniac feat. Oh, why can't I live in the same world as her? I sleep next to her character sheet sometimes...
ajmastrean 08-05-04, 12:36 PM	If you make the desicion to get rid of her, or if she decides to go on her own, have fun with the last game session... bring in an important druid/cleric who has a bard squire and a guardian monk. have these pc's played by people hand picked to annoy the girl. that's all I have right now.
Theocracity 08-05-04, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Or even a non-attractive female. I'm very glad that I'm not the average male gamer. Ah, now to get back to roleplaying Valaryia, the lesbian half-elf with the nymphomaniac feat. Oh, why can't I live in the same world as her? I sleep next to her character sheet sometimes... :uh-huh: :D
gleep 08-05-04, 03:48 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer If she doesn't, kick her to the curb and laugh at her while homosexual midgets slap her around with live octopi and disbarred attorneys with a beef against pro-bono work use dead monkeys to smear hot glue all over her face and hair. Well, at least we now have an example of what Fixxxer doesn't consider needlessly cruel. So if you do anything worse than that, watch out! :D --gleep
FriendoftheDork 08-05-04, 04:07 PM	ok, seems like everyone's suggestion needs some spine to carry out. Since you described yourself as a spinless wuss... you'll need a spinless suggestion: Use the other player. Unless he's a spineless wuss too (in which case, you're doomed), he could be persuaded to allow other players in the game. Especially if it's decided in character. Just make sure the new PC is very important to the other PC in some way. If the both of you wants another played in the game, it should be fairly easy to call it a democratic decision. and chances are, she will accept it. It's all about pulling peoples' strings. You don't need a spine for that. Of course, it's probably a good idea to growq a spine after all, and give her an ultimatum: either she stops working against you, or you kick her out.
green_yawgmoth 08-05-04, 08:22 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Or even a non-attractive female. I'm very glad that I'm not the average male gamer. Ah, now to get back to roleplaying Valaryia, the lesbian half-elf with the nymphomaniac feat. Oh, why can't I live in the same world as her? I sleep next to her character sheet sometimes... Hahahaa, well played. http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Count Arioch the 28th 08-06-04, 09:14 AM	The sheer fact that she thinks that the ranger got nerfed in 3.5 means that she's not too bright, and perhaps you can distract her with some sort of shiney object while you push her out the car door in the woods.
Tilo 08-07-04, 06:24 AM	If you don't want a confrontation and she keeps being a drag, get that other player you've got and start a new game. Then, once you think that one is going to last, ditch the old one, and with it, her. Another thing - it may be the DM's game, but the players have a bit of a say in it, too. There's people I will not play with (she sounds like one), and no "This is my game and I say who plays!" is going to dissuade me. The DM can't play his game alone, and it's pretty dumb to **** players off with outtime things. As for what you've described - do you really want to keep playing with her?