Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PantherFern 08-26-07, 08:06 PM	Hi everybody. I've been scouring this forum for a couple of days now and feel that I can benefit greatly from your combined expertise here. Here's my situation. I have fairly limited playing experience; a couple of very short campaigns many years ago (in the THAC0 days) and this most recent game which I've been playing in for the last few months or so. The players are myself, wife and 3 kids, our friend and her 2 kids, 2 other of our mutual friends and was being DM'ed by friend 1's boyfriend. Problem 1: people in general have been unhappy with the game as it goes along. There are a lot of people, the DM complained constantly about the group size yet is the one who invited all of us; myself and friends 2 & 3 are the only ones with any game experience at all and none of us are very well-experienced - the DM is very experienced long-term player. Eh, regardless, I suppose the exact problems aren't pertinent, but suffice to say that there were a number of them. Problem 2: Friend 1 and the DM have parted ways. Added to the fact that he was unhappy with running the game and the players were growing increasingly dissatisfied, he's no longer the DM. So now, I am taking over as DM. :eek: I holding a meeting with everybody to figure out if we're going to continue on with the current campaign or start up something new. A quick poll has suggested that my wife and friend 1 would like to start fresh, the kids all want to keep going, friends 2 & 3 seem indifferent. We''l figure all this out after we've met together and discussed the pros and cons of each. Problem 3: I don't know how to DM. I've barely got the hang of playing. I'm good with world-creating, storylining, and general roleplaying, but the actual rules confuse the hell outta me. We all have lvl 8-9 characters with all sorts of bonuses that none of us understand, a bunch of skill points that none of us have ever been allowed to use, feats which have never been explained or used, and within the last couple sessions, a pile of magical weapons/armor which have been half-explained to us. Everybody had to start somewhere so, um, how do I put this? . . how do I learn to DM? What kind of resources are there to help me get a grip on the actual rules of the game? The players will be 5 kids and 4 adults. I have the 3.0 DMG, PHB, and MM. I have read them all but remain confused on many of the very basics of how the game operates. I'll provide some examples: 1. My character is a rogue with two weapons. Sometimes I am allowed to hit with both, sometimes not; sometimes I get sneak attack bonuses of several d6, sometimes not - I never know why or when any of these conditions apply. How do I find this out? 2. My son's character is a wizard. Friend 1's is a sorceress. Neither of them know how to utilize spell lists, what they can or can't use, or what any of the spells do. Essentially, through the 4-5 months on playing and 8-9 levels, they have barely participated in combat because, simply, they don't know what to do. The [former] DM never really explained it to them, and even after poring over the books, I can't figure it out either. 3. My daughters are both monks. There has got to be more to this class than punching people for 1d8 by level 8 hasn't there? [Former] DM said "oh they get all kinds of cool abilities" but never said what they were. Our barbarian in full magical plate rages and charges and does 40-50 pts of damage/round while the girls are completely unarmored doing 1d8 . . . what's wrong with this? How do I (or they) find out what their characters are supposed to be able to do? Anyway, I've gone on long enough (too long?) already, though I'm sure I could keep going for pages. Any help for a fledgling DM with inexperienced players would be most appreciated. I'm off to read the DMG & PHB for the umpteenth time hoping something will sink in. I'll check back later. Thanks in advance.
Gargs454 08-26-07, 08:41 PM	"Our barbarian in full magical plate rages and charges and does 40-50 pts of damage/round" There's a problem right off the bat, Barb's can't wear full plate generally speaking. As for advice in general, the first thing you need to do is read through the PHB. All of it. Probably 3 or 4 times. To give you an idea, I've been playing 3.0/3.5 since it was released in 2000 or so, DMing most of the time, and I still read it. After you've read through it once or twice, read through with each specific character in mind. i.e. Look at the character sheets for the monk and read through the monk class description as well as all of their feats, etc. (hint, monks do take some time to ramp up). Next, read the DMG. All of it. Probably 3 or 4 times. (See PHB above). Reading the core books will give you the most bang for your buck at this point. Finally, grab the Monster Manual and at the very least, read the glossary section that describes all of the abilities, some of those might apply to some of your characters, not sure obviously as I have not seen your characters. After you've done that, try to sit down with each player and work through their character sheet, explaining everything to them. The magic gear could potentially be a problem if the DM pulled it from non core books. Personally, if I were you, I would probably try to break the game up into two different games with 4 people in each, but I understand that is not always an easy thing to do. Additionally, I would recommend starting back at square one since there will be a lot fewer abilities to worry about and you can more easily learn them together that way. Then, when a character gets a new ability, its only one new thing for them to learn. Most importantly, remember Rule 0 in D&D -- The DM is always right. This doesn't mean that you should be a jerk, but rather, if a situation comes up in a game, just make a decision on the fly if you can't find the answer right away. Then you can always look it up later or come here and have somebody answer it for you. Hope that helps you some. Feel free to ask more specific questions, but it sounds as though you really need to take a long read through the core books first. Most of the answers to the questions you just asked are in there, and it might be best to go that route first. Good luck and welcome back to the game!
PantherFern 08-26-07, 08:59 PM	After you've done that, try to sit down with each player and work through their character sheet, explaining everything to them. The magic gear could potentially be a problem if the DM pulled it from non core books. This is something that was never really done with any of us. And even as a fellow player I have tried doing this for my wife and kids but could never quite grasp how to explain any of it. The numbers on their sheets (given by [former] DM) don't match up with what they should be according to PHB and he never really explained why they were what they were. ie. My rogue gets a +10 to initiative rolls but I don't know why. Personally, if I were you, I would probably try to break the game up into two different games with 4 people in each, but I understand that is not always an easy thing to do. This idea was brought up before by [former] DM and nobody wanted to go in for it. We're all friends and playing is as much about all getting together as it is the game itself. Splitting it up runs completely counter to the whole point of it. Additionally, I would recommend starting back at square one since there will be a lot fewer abilities to worry about and you can more easily learn them together that way. Then, when a character gets a new ability, its only one new thing for them to learn. I, myself, would like to go this route. The kids, however, are invested in the game already underway. I don't want to force the players into a game that's against what they want. We've already had enough of that so far. Most importantly, remember Rule 0 in D&D -- The DM is always right. This doesn't mean that you should be a jerk, but rather, if a situation comes up in a game, just make a decision on the fly if you can't find the answer right away. Then you can always look it up later or come here and have somebody answer it for you. Don't be a jerk. Got it. Hope that helps you some. Feel free to ask more specific questions, but it sounds as though you really need to take a long read through the core books first. Most of the answers to the questions you just asked are in there, and it might be best to go that route first.Oh I'm sure I'll be back with a bazillion questions. Thanks. Good luck and welcome back to the game!Thanks.
Divokej 08-26-07, 09:01 PM	Bust them all back to first level. Do it, do it now. Your life will be much simpler. Only use core. Do it, do it now. Your life will be much simpler. Read DnD for Dummies. Do it eventually, no rush. I'm not insulting you, I read it and it really hammered in the rules. Your rogue can hit with two weapons when he has a full action. You get a full action every time it is your turn. A turn comprises a full action which is broken down into a standard action, a move action and however many free actions you want. So you can move (move action) and attack once (standard action). You can sit still and make a full attack (a full attack is a full action, in your case (a level eight rogue with two weapons) you get three attacks (two with your main weapon and one with your off-hand weapon)). You can take a five foot step (a free action) and make a full attack (a full action). Your rogue gets sneak attack damage whenever your target is flatfooted, you are flanking your target or your target can't apply his Dex to his AC for some reason. If you are using a ranged weapon as long as one of these conditions apply and you are within 30 feet you get sneak attack damage. A wizard knows many spells but in order to cast them that day he needs to prepare a select number of the spells he knows (generally in the morning). A sorceror knows a limited number of spells but as long as he can cast a spell of that level he can cast it. There's a better discription in the PHB. It's in the magic section and in the class descriptions. Read them. Read the trip rules and convince your monks to do them. Or grapple, for some reason people think the grapple rules are confusing but they aren't bad at all in my opinion. Anything else? (Oh, and have I mentioned you should start at first level? You should, you realy should.) Edit: If you have the large amount of time required for this start them at first on a new character sheet adn figure out all their modifiers. Then level them up to level eight so everybody knows what they have and why they have it. Feats, skills and equipment might change. That's okay.
MogliGrimTooth 08-26-07, 09:05 PM	Pantherfern... with a name ending in fern your not new zealand based are you? MGT.
Kouk 08-26-07, 09:11 PM	I would also suggest Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies. I haven't read it myself, but if you are having problems with the Core rulebooks, a different way of explaining things may go a long way. The problem is, you may have to see if a 3.0 version of D&D for Dummies exists, I only know of the 3.5 one. If you are reading it all through in one sitting, stop doing that. You should read the sections carefully, and make sure each part sinks in a fair amount before going on to the next. Start with chapter 1 of the PHB and go from there. The DMG assumes you have a good grasp of the PHB, so don't skip ahead to the next books unless you are going to look for something specific. You don't have to read sections that are not immediately useful to your campaign, for instance if there are no Rangers you can skip the Ranger class description for now. You don't have to memorize any of the books, not many people ever do. But you should have a strong sense of how the mechanics work with each other, and an idea of where to find specific information when you need to look things up (the correct chapters, and the correct headings for the information). The kids probably don't understand that they aren't using their characters as it is now anyway. If nobody understands what is on the character sheet then it doesn't really matter what is on the character sheet. You can tell them that you are starting a new game with new characters so you can learn the rules, and that afterwards you will go back to the other characters and continue on (and maybe you never will, I don't think they can be salvaged). It seems like your characters were just assigned by the previous DM and he never explained it to you. Have everyone make new characters at level 1 or 2, so they are involved in the entire experience of making the character. Most of us on the forums are most familiar with version 3.5 of the rules but we have had experience with 3.0 (and before that in many cases). There are significant differences with classes and spells between the versions, but it is about 90% the same rules. Have the kids tried reading the books? They might pick up a fair amount of it (though many words might be beyond them still, and they are prone to misunderstandings). There is also the D&D Basic Game, a boxed set that sort of introduces the basics in a prefabricated little adventure. It is pretty bad, but it might be helpful as a learning tool. It also comes with some miniatures and dice, which pretty much makes it worth the cost even without the attempt at rules. There are several errors though, and I would recommend against trying to learn anything from the Basic Game because many rules are simplified and glossed over to the point where it is like you are learning a different game.
PantherFern 08-27-07, 03:17 AM	Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply. First, no, I'm not from New Zealand. Divokej: I am going to try and nudge the group toward a complete restart because I feel it will be easier for all (or at least most) concerned. The kids don't understand how to play their characters properly as it is (although they are all firmly attached to them) and I will probably have a harder time picking up a campaign that I know only surface descriptions about than starting one of my own (or purchased) design. Another factor is that friend 2's character is a 1/2 celestial 1/2 tiefling Eldritch Knight/rogue/warlock . . . I don't even know where to start looking up what any of that is or how it works. At the same time though, if a democratic decision shows that most would rather continue on, would it be a terribly prudent first move as New DM to tell them "No, I don't care, we're starting over?" What is considered "core?" The only books I have are 3.0 DMG, PHB, & MM. I can't afford much but if another book or two would be greatly helpful, which would they be? DnD for Dummies is on the list. Got it. Your explanation of my rogue's abilities is more concise and helpful than our entire campaign has been. That's all it boils down to?!? As for the wizard and sorceress . . . I guess I'll just have to read their chapters 4 or 40 times to figure out what, exactly, they're supposed to be doing besides standing there waiting for our barbarian and my rogue to beat people to death (which is how 75% of the battles have gone thusfar.) The same apparently applies to our monks who have, almost inexplicably missed nearly every attack in the campaign, and when they do hit manage a few points of damage or none at all (because their weapons aren't silver and nearly everything has been a were-something.) Kouk: DnD for Dummies. Duly noted. I had already started reading the DMG and remain utterly bewildered at how any of it is helpful. I shall therefore take your advice and start in on the PHB again. Our characters were not assigned by the DM perse; we all decided what race/class/etc we wanted to be and rolled stats, and chose skills and feats and all of that. The problem is that, with none of us really knowing what we're doing, it wasn't much help. Friends 2 & 3 didn't join until a few sessions ago, and these are the two who have actually played before. Let me see if I can provide some examples for insight. - I created a rogue with high cha and dex and int and low con and str. I got a ton of skill points (40 or so I think) to start and decided that rather than a typical thief character, I wanted to be more of a diplomatic con-man type. I put most of my points into bluff, diplomacy, disguise, and things of this nature. In the months of playing, I've only once, briefly, had the opportunity to put any of these to use (we were set upon by bandits and I managed to scare them into running off rather than fighting) and the DM was less than happy about this because they supposedly had stuff we were supposed to get. In fact, there have really been no NPC's in the game at all except our "boss" whose word we are not allowed to question. So essentially, the silver-tongued trickster I set out to make was forced into the role of dual-weapon-wielding damage dealer with less HP than our wizard. - Almost every session, we level up so none of our numbers are ever the same in 2 meetings. So either before or after each session (depending on time) the DM would say "okay, you get a +1 to hit with this weapon, +1 to initiative, +whatever to this save, and I'd roll for HP and lose some because of low CON. Basically, I now have +10 to initiative, +8 to hit with shortsword, +7 to hit with dagger, and seem to occasionally get to roll a whole pile of d6's to attack . . . but I don't know why any of that is that case. - For my character, and the position he's taken, I guess it doesn't really matter why because I just run up and stab people continually until somebody dies. For some of the other characters, it is a far greater problem though. The wizard was able to do precisely nothing for about 5 levels until he got a staff-of-something-or-other that allowed him to cast spells. He has skills and feats but doesn't know what to do with them, pathetic AC and HP, and no idea what spells to pick or what most of them do. The sorceress is in a similar situation but manages to cast color spray at every opportunity and uses a healing wand to keep us all alive. The kids have read the book somewhat, but, it is one book for 9 people, and it's a 3.0 while we were apparently playing under 3.5 rules. :rolleyes: I was thinking of making up cheat-sheet type index cards for everybody that had their AC, attacks, and combat-related skills & feats so that maybe combat would go a bit smoother and they'd have a sort of quick reference for What To Do during combat. I have no clue how to handle the spellcasters though because there are just so many spells, and descriptions of spells, and conditions on spells.
jeremykincaid 08-27-07, 03:54 AM	starting over at level one I believe really is a must. It is hard enough to pick up someone elses campiegn for an experienced DM. Don't be a jerk about it, but explain to your party that tthis really is necissary for all of you to really get ahold of the game. By core books, that is exactly what they mean, PHB, DMG, and MM. Although if at all possible, id suggest trying to get ahold of the 3.5 version of all these books. If money is a problem, try Half Priced Books, they usually have a good supply. But 3.5 is much better explained, and alot simpler. Another suggestion Id have to make, is drop by the local gaming store and see if you can find someone who can go over everything in the book item by item. Trying to figure alot of these rules can be hard and frustrating without help, and these forums only go so far. the only thing i can say other than that is that your old DM was a really bad DM if yall got to lvl 8 and didnt know what you were doing. And the only way to get good yourself is gain some insight(as detailed above) and practicing! Good Luck, and once again, if you have any more questions, ask away!
pres_man 08-27-07, 04:21 AM	Explain to the group that as a new DM, you are going to require that the group 1) start over at level 1 and 2) stick with only the standard races (no half fiendish-half celestial whatevers, you want to be a half-something be a half-elf or half-orc). If they don't want to do that, explain that you will not be able to competently DM and it just wouldn't be worth it to you. As for their current characters, perhaps explain that they have been recruited by some powerful being, and so they find others to take over for them. Thus you tie their new characters to their old ones and that might help for the kids. I like 3.5 better than 3rd but there isn't a huge difference (I still use many 3rd edition texts). What with the game going to 4th edition next year, it may or may not be good for you. This may mean you could get old books on the cheap or it may mean you might decide to upgrade and switch to all new books. You'll have to decide (my group has pretty much decide to wait for 5th edition). But if there is a chance that you might upgrade I wouldn't make a big deal about buying more books instead, Welcome to the Digital Age! Here is a link to a 3rd edition SRD (system resource document, open material for the game). You print off the relevant material, cut and paste cheat sheets, etc. http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html Leveling usually occurs after 13 1/3 encounters, depending on how many you have per session and how long sessions are, will tell you how often you should level. Notice, not all encounters are combat, social situations (using social skills), puzzles, obstacle courses (using climbing, etc) could all be encounters. Now I don't worry about xp a whole lot myself, basically my group levels about every 3-4 sessions (we game once a week for 4 hours), I just give them a rough estimate instead of exactly calculating. It may be that if you game less often you might want to level after few sessions, but I wouldn't go less than every other session unless you are typically playing 16 hour sessions. Basics about rounds and actions: Each round you can either make a full round action or a series of lesser actions. If you choose the series of lesser actions you can make 1 standard action (attack, cast a spell, etc) and 1 move equivalent action (move, open a door, draw a weapon, mount a horse, etc) and some free actions (speak a short statement, 5' step if you don't move otherwise, etc) [if you go to 3.5 you can do 1 swift action per round]. standard action > move action > [swift action >] free action You can replace a standard action with move action (do 2 move equivalent actions in a round) but you can't do it the other way around (can't do 2 standard actions). I would tell everyone that you all are going to spend a session or 1/2 a session just building new characters. Then have you and your family build your characters ahead of time, so you get to know how to do it, why you pick certain things, etc. Then ask your family to help the others.
PantherFern 08-27-07, 04:31 AM	Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply. First, no, I'm not from New Zealand. Divokej: I am going to try and nudge the group toward a complete restart because I feel it will be easier for all (or at least most) concerned. The kids don't understand how to play their characters properly as it is (although they are all firmly attached to them) and I will probably have a harder time picking up a campaign that I know only surface descriptions about than starting one of my own (or purchased) design. Another factor is that friend 2's character is a 1/2 celestial 1/2 tiefling Eldritch Knight/rogue/warlock . . . I don't even know where to start looking up what any of that is or how it works. At the same time though, if a democratic decision shows that most would rather continue on, would it be a terribly prudent first move as New DM to tell them "No, I don't care, we're starting over?" What is considered "core?" The only books I have are 3.0 DMG, PHB, & MM. I can't afford much but if another book or two would be greatly helpful, which would they be? DnD for Dummies is on the list. Got it. Your explanation of my rogue's abilities is more concise and helpful than our entire campaign has been. That's all it boils down to?!? As for the wizard and sorceress . . . I guess I'll just have to read their chapters 4 or 40 times to figure out what, exactly, they're supposed to be doing besides standing there waiting for our barbarian and my rogue to beat people to death (which is how 75% of the battles have gone thusfar.) The same apparently applies to our monks who have, almost inexplicably missed nearly every attack in the campaign, and when they do hit manage a few points of damage or none at all (because their weapons aren't silver and nearly everything has been a were-something.) Kouk: DnD for Dummies. Duly noted. I had already started reading the DMG and remain utterly bewildered at how any of it is helpful. I shall therefore take your advice and start in on the PHB again. Our characters were not assigned by the DM perse; we all decided what race/class/etc we wanted to be and rolled stats, and chose skills and feats and all of that. The problem is that, with none of us really knowing what we're doing, it wasn't much help. Friends 2 & 3 didn't join until a few sessions ago, and these are the two who have actually played before. Let me see if I can provide some examples for insight. - I created a rogue with high cha and dex and int and low con and str. I got a ton of skill points (40 or so I think) to start and decided that rather than a typical thief character, I wanted to be more of a diplomatic con-man type. I put most of my points into bluff, diplomacy, disguise, and things of this nature. In the months of playing, I've only once, briefly, had the opportunity to put any of these to use (we were set upon by bandits and I managed to scare them into running off rather than fighting) and the DM was less than happy about this because they supposedly had stuff we were supposed to get. In fact, there have really been no NPC's in the game at all except our "boss" whose word we are not allowed to question. So essentially, the silver-tongued trickster I set out to make was forced into the role of dual-weapon-wielding damage dealer with less HP than our wizard. - Almost every session, we level up so none of our numbers are ever the same in 2 meetings. So either before or after each session (depending on time) the DM would say "okay, you get a +1 to hit with this weapon, +1 to initiative, +whatever to this save, and I'd roll for HP and lose some because of low CON. Basically, I now have +10 to initiative, +8 to hit with shortsword, +7 to hit with dagger, and seem to occasionally get to roll a whole pile of d6's to attack . . . but I don't know why any of that is that case. - For my character, and the position he's taken, I guess it doesn't really matter why because I just run up and stab people continually until somebody dies. For some of the other characters, it is a far greater problem though. The wizard was able to do precisely nothing for about 5 levels until he got a staff-of-something-or-other that allowed him to cast spells. He has skills and feats but doesn't know what to do with them, pathetic AC and HP, and no idea what spells to pick or what most of them do. The sorceress is in a similar situation but manages to cast color spray at every opportunity and uses a healing wand to keep us all alive. The kids have read the book somewhat, but, it is one book for 9 people, and it's a 3.0 while we were apparently playing under 3.5 rules. :rolleyes: I was thinking of making up cheat-sheet type index cards for everybody that had their AC, attacks, and combat-related skills & feats so that maybe combat would go a bit smoother and they'd have a sort of quick reference for What To Do during combat. I have no clue how to handle the spellcasters though because there are just so many spells, and descriptions of spells, and conditions on spells.
Lukasa 08-27-07, 04:35 AM	I holding a meeting with everybody to figure out if we're going to continue on with the current campaign or start up something new. A quick poll has suggested that my wife and friend 1 would like to start fresh, the kids all want to keep going, friends 2 & 3 seem indifferent. We''l figure all this out after we've met together and discussed the pros and cons of each. Other posters have all said it, but I feel it necessary to reiterate: start again. You don't understand their character sheets, they don't understand their character sheets, so you can't trust any of that information there. Worse, you can't alter it! Problem 3: I don't know how to DM. I've barely got the hang of playing. I'm good with world-creating, storylining, and general roleplaying, but the actual rules confuse the hell outta me. We all have lvl 8-9 characters with all sorts of bonuses that none of us understand, a bunch of skill points that none of us have ever been allowed to use, feats which have never been explained or used, and within the last couple sessions, a pile of magical weapons/armor which have been half-explained to us. Noone starts out knowing 'how to DM'. I think most people on this board will happily admit that when they first DMed they had no clue what they were doing. It's the rules that are going to be problematic here. Start with the PHB. Since you were playing a rogue, start there. (I'm assuming you understand attributes - you may want to read the section about races as well, although that has the potential to confuse.) Just read the section. It is imperative you understand the circumstances for sneak attack. The problem with these books is that the rules intermingle. The Rogue section refers to 'Flat footed'. But flat-footed isn't explained until the combat section. So, every time you come up against a term you don't understand, turn to the index and reference it. Occasionally you'll have to look in the DMG to truly understand it. Do this for each class in turn, possibly multiple times. You don't need to know their abilities from memory, but simply understand what each one means. Then, move on to the next section, do the same. Everybody had to start somewhere so, um, how do I put this? . . how do I learn to DM? What kind of resources are there to help me get a grip on the actual rules of the game? The players will be 5 kids and 4 adults. A 9-strong party has the potential to be a blessing and a curse. On the plus side, even though they are inexperienced, you'll be hard-pressed to kill them all off. However, it requires a lot more management on your part. I'm, frankly, hardly surprised that your previous DM had a hard time. I run a party of 5 players, and it's very easy for me to leave one out by accident. So with 10 people, lots of people must have failed to enjoy themselves. You've already ruled out splitting the group, which is fine. But perhaps a co-DM is something worth considering. Someone to work out what everyone is doing while you run the combat, things like that. Bear in mind that if you do that, you and the co-DM MUST co-operate creatively. Otherwise there'll be huge arguements. I have the 3.0 DMG, PHB, and MM. I have read them all but remain confused on many of the very basics of how the game operates. I'll provide some examples: 1. My character is a rogue with two weapons. Sometimes I am allowed to hit with both, sometimes not; sometimes I get sneak attack bonuses of several d6, sometimes not - I never know why or when any of these conditions apply. How do I find this out? As I mentioned before, these books are indexed (not amazingly well, but they ARE indexed). Find the relevant terms in the PHB (in this case, "Two Weapon Fighting" and "Sneak Attack". Turn to the page, read and understand. If it helps, do what I do when reading texts for Uni: read them a line at a time, take notes on what you've learned. 2. My son's character is a wizard. Friend 1's is a sorceress. Neither of them know how to utilize spell lists, what they can or can't use, or what any of the spells do. Essentially, through the 4-5 months on playing and 8-9 levels, they have barely participated in combat because, simply, they don't know what to do. The [former] DM never really explained it to them, and even after poring over the books, I can't figure it out either. Sadly, spell lists are complicated. In this case, I suggest you read the classes, and the 'Magic' chapter. Read a few of the spell descriptions as well. Then, give the PHB to the relevant players, let them read it. Help them with whatever they don't understand. 3. My daughters are both monks. There has got to be more to this class than punching people for 1d8 by level 8 hasn't there? [Former] DM said "oh they get all kinds of cool abilities" but never said what they were. Our barbarian in full magical plate rages and charges and does 40-50 pts of damage/round while the girls are completely unarmored doing 1d8 . . . what's wrong with this? How do I (or they) find out what their characters are supposed to be able to do? There is a lot more to this class than that. I have to say, your DM is frustrating me already - he seems to have made your characters for you. I would suggest, if possible, that you avoid having people playing Monks as first characters, because they are complicated. When I converted to 3.5 (from 2nd), one of my players chose to be a monk. Only now (6 months later) can I trust him to understand and utilise his class abilities, despite having several sit-down-and-explain sessions with him. This next set of advice is vital. Don't do what your DM did. Ensure transparency. Don't write your players character sheets for them. Sit down with each player in turn and work through it with them, but do not touch a pencil or their character sheet. If your players know what they can do, and when they can do it, it's much less work for you. This is going to be a hard time for you, but as so many people here are aware, DMing is a supremely rewarding experience. Hopefully you won't be put off by the difficulties you've encountered by being thrown into the deep end. Best of luck.
Lotusblossom 08-27-07, 04:41 AM	I second the motion to read the PHB 2 or 3 times, esp. Chapters 3, 8, & 10. Also, Go to your FLGS and buy 1 module for level 1 party, such as Scourge of the Howling Horde. Make sure it was published within the last year, as these have 2-page encounters with all the necessary special rules RiGHT ON THOSE TWO PAGES (diplomacy, grapple, turn undead or whatever). These assume you've been a player and now you're a first-time DM. Afterward, you should be good to go.
Ryzak 08-27-07, 04:58 AM	Here's some things Iwould do. 1) Explain to the kids that are attached to their "powerful" mages, that since they can't do anything with them, they're not that powerful. If they start at 1st level and learn how to do all of their stuff, they will actually be more powerful than before!! 2) If I'm not mistaken there is also a Dunegon Mastering for Dummies. So get both if you can! 3) Take a small group, maybe your kids, and just run through a combat. very slowly, so everyone learns the rules. when the kids are creating characters go through with them step by step to make sure they are doing everything right (ie no plate armor for Barbarians!) 4) I would start with a published Module. The Standing Stone published by Wizards is a good start, or any of the Goodman Game Modules are great. This way, everything is made for you, the most you will have to do is to tweak everything to your party's size. 5) If during a combat, you and noone else is 100% sure what to do next..>STOP!!!..Grab the PHB and DMG and search through it until you understand what to do. Those two books actually have decent indexes in the back. If you still are not sure, try D&D Wiki....it's a great site that can answer a lot of questons as well. Just don't be afraid of stopping the game to make sure you and everyone else knows how a rule functions With some of those tips in mind, it will take time, but in a month or two you will start to be surprised at how much you've learned. When creating character sheets, find ones that spell out exactly what each box is for. Good Luck!!!
Nom 08-27-07, 08:48 AM	I know you don't want to do this, but life will be much simpler if you break it into two games: one for the kids, and one for the adults. With 5 kids, you don't need the other adults to play PCs, but they can help out if needed. The game runs best with 4-5 players; any more than that and it's just too hard. The DM has too many people to pay attention to, the players get too little "screen time" each, and any sort of tactical encounter takes forever to resolve. And that's for experienced DMs and players, let alone newbies.
Gargs454 08-27-07, 08:50 AM	Perhaps a good way to explain the situation to your kids would be to say that you need to start over at level one so that you (the DM) can get a better grasp on the rules and on the campaign as a whole. Then tell them that their characters are not going away, and that as you get several sessions under your belt, you will likely be willing to bring those original characters back into the game. This way, they know that their characters are not going away, and you are telling them that its something you need to do for your own sake. Might help a little. As others have already stated, I would suggest not allowing anything that is not in the 3 core books (PHB, DMG, MM). Your two friends should understand your reasoning since you are still learning yourself. I'm not sure how your Rogue is losing HP at each level since the minimum gain is +1 HP, even if you have a Con of 1. Finally (for now anyway) one of the key elements to being a good DM is knowing the abilities/skills of your players. You've indirectly hit on one of the many problems of your old DM. If you have a player with a character that is set up to be a "silver-tongued" rogue, give them opportunities to shine every now and then. At the same time, if a player has invested feats and skills into making items, let them. Never focus solely on just one player (for obvious reasons) but if you know how your players have structured their characters, you know how to let them make the most out of their characters. Finally, I would suggest that you simply forget anything the old DM told you since it seems abundantly clear that he was in all likelihood playing his own version of D&D. As a prime example, even a Wizard that has an INT of only 11 (extremely low for a wizard) is able to cast several spells at level 1. There is no requirement that they have a staff. A Sorceress likewise will also be able to cast a number of spells at level 1 (more than the wizard in fact, but will have fewer spells to choose from). I second the motion about reading through the classes one at a time with a player and their sheet with you. This also has the added benefit of allowing you to skip any classes that are not being used by the party since for the moment, it won't be relevant.
Heros_Backpack 08-27-07, 08:59 AM	Start at level 1, keep it simple to start with. Take enough time to get used to the abilities your character has at this level before going up a level and getting new abilities. Also, don't worry about power levels - concentrate on having fun with a few things you can use really well instead of lots that you aren't sure about. (Any advice here is based on the 3.5 edition and may not be completely accurate) For spell casters, make sure that their mental stats are high enough to cast their spells. A wizard needs Int, a cleric needs Wis, and a sorcerer needs Cha. They need a stat of 10 to cast 0th level spells, 11 to cast 1st level, 12 to cast 2nd level and so on. Some simple and useful spells your wizard and sorcerer could use: 0th level Acid Splash - make a ranged touch attack to do 1d3 points of acid damage. Ranged Touch Attack: Roll 1d20 and add your BAB (Basic Attack Bonus which can be found in the first column of the chart for your class), your Dex Modifier and your Size Modifier. Compare the result to the enemy's Touch AC (Normally 10 + Dex Mod + Size Modifier + any Deflection bonus) and see if it hits. Detect Magic - find all magic items, areas and functioning spells within 60 feet. 1st level Mage Armor - +4 boost to AC that lasts for 1 hour/level of caster. Magic Missile - point and zap any creature for 1d4+1 points of damage.
Shuuya 08-27-07, 08:59 AM	I'm gonna go with the general consensus here. 1) Carefully read and re-read every section of the PHB and DMG. Take plenty of breaks and read one chapter at a time. 2) Look over the monster manual and get an idea of how certain enemies you might be using behave and their skills. 3) Put the current campaign on hold and run two groups (kids and adults) of 4/5 and have a rogue-healer-fighter-caster sort of party so they can handle alot. I suggest running the Sunless Citadel module which was the first D&D 3.0 adventure and it was pretty much made to be easy for DMs and players and slowly dealt with the rules to introduce new DMs and players because the 3.0 rules were new when it was published. Then when you're finally comfortable with the rules, classes and everything you should go back to the current campaign, look over the character sheets make any changes or check everything on them and then continue. 8th level characters are tough for a first time DM to keep checks on because they have too many abilities and options available (the cleric's spell list for example is pretty huge at mid-levels compared to what he can do at first.) Good luck with all your DMing in future! EDIT: It may be worthwhile to split the group up just for the adventure to "test the waters" and get you used to DMing but you could always merge them again once you're more comfortable with DMing and ready to come up with interesting EL appropriate encounters.
Gargs454 08-27-07, 09:52 AM	I'm gonna go with the general consensus here. 1) Carefully read and re-read every section of the PHB and DMG. Take plenty of breaks and read one chapter at a time. 2) Look over the monster manual and get an idea of how certain enemies you might be using behave and their skills. 3) Put the current campaign on hold and run two groups (kids and adults) of 4/5 and have a rogue-healer-fighter-caster sort of party so they can handle alot. I suggest running the Sunless Citadel module which was the first D&D 3.0 adventure and it was pretty much made to be easy for DMs and players and slowly dealt with the rules to introduce new DMs and players because the 3.0 rules were new when it was published. Then when you're finally comfortable with the rules, classes and everything you should go back to the current campaign, look over the character sheets make any changes or check everything on them and then continue. 8th level characters are tough for a first time DM to keep checks on because they have too many abilities and options available (the cleric's spell list for example is pretty huge at mid-levels compared to what he can do at first.) Good luck with all your DMing in future! EDIT: It may be worthwhile to split the group up just for the adventure to "test the waters" and get you used to DMing but you could always merge them again once you're more comfortable with DMing and ready to come up with interesting EL appropriate encounters. I absolutely agree with the advice of using a published adventure for at least a little while. You have enough things going on at the moment than to have to worry about writing an adventure too. One way that you can possibly save some time at the outset would be to read only those sections of MM that pertain the monsters that are in the published adventure. This is something you should always do before an adventure anyway, but you don't need to get bogged down with all the abilities of the Tarrasque when you won't be fighting it, etc.
eue 08-27-07, 11:20 AM	When I started DMing, I had never played the game before. It seems like you are in the same situation. You were not playing the game so far. It seems like you were just rolling dice for whatever your (really, really bad) DM asked of you. I know you've probably tired of reading all this but, here it goes: Know the game. Read the PHB, understand the PHB, re-read the PHB, consolidate what you have learned from the PHB. Then read the DMG, understand the DMG, re-read the DMG, consolidate what you have learned from the DMG. Take it slow. Don't rush the "understand the <book>" steps. You can download a searchable version of the SRD here (http://www.andargor.com/files/srd35-andargor-HTML-v1.3.zip), so you can lookup things that come up later in the game. I would suggest you to get revised (3.5ed) books if you can afford them. Start small. Meet with your players and help them create their brand new level 1 characters. Re-read the sections pertaining their characters' abilities. Follow the steps in the PHB, don't rush anything. Don't make your players' characters yourself. Have them do it themselves. Your task is to give advice and guidance, not to do it for them. Have each of your players read and understand his character's abilities and options. Then I would suggest some kind of a "practice session". Just throw some monsters at your PCs (make sure to look at the MM previously) and run a few combats. Slowly. One step at a time. Make sure everyone understands everything that's happening. If a situation arises when you're not sure what should happen, go back to the books or the SRD. Once everyone understands what are all (most of them, at least) those numbers in their character sheets, you can start playing the game. Start with something simple. Don't try to write your own adventure straight away. Start with some premade stuff at first. Read the whole adventure and look up any rules question that might arise from it. Take notes if you think they are needed (just think they are needed all the time, because they are!). Then re-read the adventure so you become aware of how everything should play out. Since your group is HUGE, you'd better adjust the adventure's difficulty. Increase the number of monsters per encounter, or grant some of them a few ability boosts or extra hps (yes, this is cheating, but that's what we DMs do, isn't it?:rolleyes:). If you don't do this, you run the risk of your players kicking everything with just a few scratches. Don't exagerate, however, you don't want to start your DMing career with a TPK (total party kill), do you? If, during the game, if find out you exagerated (too late!:eek:), take a few hps from the monsters (don't let the PCs know, ok?;)), or mentally remove the bonuses you gave them... Now, to the game! Put all the knowledge you've gathered so far to fruition. If a rules issue comes up, avoid the books. Unless you know exactly where to find your answer, come up with some fair ruling that makes sense, and take note of it. Later, once the session is over (or during a break) check out the actual ruling in the books. Never stop the game to wade through the books searching for a freakin' rule:mad:! Warn your players that the ruling is valid only for the session and you will find the official ruling later. Not the correct ruling, the official ruling. The correct ruling is always the one the DM deems correct, either official or not. Don't worry about mistakes. But fix them nonetheless. My first campaign was quite full of mistakes. But it went by ok and it was fun. That's what the game is all about: fun. I learned a lot from the mistakes I made. Most of what I have learned so far was from my mistakes... So, good luck and have FUN!
PantherFern 08-27-07, 03:13 PM	Lukasa: I believe you brought this up about starting with the very basics. I'm looking at the Rouge section (@ d20srd.org) It says for a lvl 8, the base attack bonus is +6/+1. What is that for? Is that +6 to hit or to damage? and what's the +1? It just says: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Soooo . . . how do I know when an opponent is "unable to defend himself" or is "denied a dexterity bonus to AC?" I do understand how flanking works so that's one thing down.
Xankal 08-27-07, 04:11 PM	The +6/+1 is your base attack bonus heretofore refered to as the BAB. This is only added to your "to hit" and not to damage. Damage is modified by your strength and magical bonuses. +6/+1 means that you get two attacks in a full attack round plus, since you have two weapon fighting, you get a third attack. The first two attacks will be with your main weapon and off hand weapon at the +6 BAB then a third attack with your main weapon at +1 BAB. You would be able to make another attack at +1 BAB with your off hand weapon if you took the feat Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Read the rules for TWF and you will find that using two weapons actually gives you some negatives on your "to hit". Flat-footed or denied their dex bonus usually happens when you attack first. If you suprise them it's automatic, if it's not a suprise but you rolled a better initiative than the enemy then they are flat-footed until their attack. After that there are a couple of ways to render a target flat-footed again, things like grapple, entanglement, etc. will let you do the extra d6's of damage. Just use your good judgement, if the opponent can't move freely, they are probably denied their Dex bonus.
Gargs454 08-27-07, 04:34 PM	To add on to what Xankal said: Certain conditions will also deny a character their Dex bonus i.e. Stunned, sleeping, unconscious, etc. Additionally, you get to apply your Sneak attack damage if you are flanking the opponent. Flanking is discussed in the Combat chapter, but essentially it means that you and an ally are adjacent to the enemy but on opposite sides of each other. i.e. if you have people A, B, and C engaged in a combat where C is the enemy and A and B are allies, A and B would be flanking if on opposite sides of C. EX: ACB. In this case, A and B are flanking. Ex2: A BC In this case they are not flanking because although both are adjacent, they are not on polar opposites if you were to consider the 8 adjacent squares to C. (Hope this makes sense, but its hard to explain on Message board). If you are still confused look at the combat chapter as it has good explanations and diagrams. The Combat section also details what you can do in a single round, and explains how long certain actions take. As stated before, you can only Full attack (i.e. attack more than once) in a round with your rogue if you use a full round action to do so. That means that you would not be able to move more than 5 feet, could not quaff a potion, etc. If you run up to an enemy at the start of the round, you would only get one attack. etc. It certainly sounds like it would be a good idea as others have said to start off by just grabbing some miniatures and handing character sheets to your wife and kids and doing practice combats using monsters from the MM. To allay any worries, tell them that this is just practice (for fun) so that you can all get a good grasp of the rules. This might even be a decent way to let the kids keep their original characters while starting over back at level one. Just use level one characters (let the kids create them if they want) and practice. Don't worry about story or adventures or anything, just work on combat (its the most confusing aspect of the game anyway). Then when you have those level one characters figured out, up them to level 2 or 3 or to whenever they get a new ability and do the same thing. Essentially, you can slowly work it back up to level 8 just figuring out the combat aspect. I still think its better to simply start over, but I also agree that it might be best not to disappoint the kids too much so that you don't lose them as players. One other piece of advice, if you go to Paizo.com they have a Combat Pad which is great for running combats as it will help you keep track of when everyone's turn is. With 8 players, it would be quite easy to skip somebody in a round, or have them go out of turn.