Breaking bones 101 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking bones 101 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
METAWIZARD
07-08-06, 07:57 AM Situation came up in game where a PC wanted to break the neck of a Balor with his bare hands. Wise to end the encounter as quickly as possible if not a little unwise with the method. Anyways, I thought a strength check from the PC and a fort save from the Balor might resolve this. I've heard other suggestions of simply using opposed strength checks to see if the Balor could resist the attack. I'm open to suggestions from anyone wanting to add their own ideas or share some of their own house rules..I already did the "ask wizards" thing and they didn't respond, so I'm asking everyone else.

Please enlighten me....... :teach:
Shaggy_Shaggs
07-08-06, 07:59 AM That's called "Devastating Grapple".

It's a Reaping Mauler class feature. (see Complete Warrior)

He wants to be a neck snapper, let him put in the training time.
Nor'Morgwae
07-08-06, 05:41 PM It needs to be a lot harder than an opposed roll. The above poster is right that Devastating Grapple could cause such an effect (it is, technically just a death ability though, so it can represent any number of things from breaking the neck, to crushing the. Even choking or suffocation are viable descriptions for the effect).

First off neck breaking isn't as easy as it looks on TV. There is a lot of muscle and tendon and stuff there (i'm not a doctor, can you tell?). It takes a lot of force to snap it. A Balor is even harder because they have insane strength and constitution (and a neck the size of the character's waist).

I would have resolved is as an unarmed Coup de Grace (with all of the restrictions thereof; i.e. the Balor must be helpless). Unless you are a monk snapping the neck is just not gonna happen.

It's important to keep in mind that in combat, you are already trying to kill your opponent. Trying to specifically say you are doing something to kill them is redundent.
:fight!: "I'm not going to do a normal attack this round, this round I'm going to try to cut his head off!"
:nonono: "What the :censored: do you think you were trying to do last round?"
Voldar_Mecorthio
07-08-06, 09:25 PM I would say that the balor has to be grappled (painful for the grappler), then he would have to make a strength check opposed by the balor's, the balor would get a +4 bonus since he's large size, plus his enormous strength would make the task nearly impossable. If by some miracle he succedes, it would do damage as a coup de grace, maximum damage from a critical hit unarmed attack, balor must make fortitude save, DC=damage dealt or die.
Piggyfreak6
07-08-06, 09:56 PM First i would say they'd have to be in a grapple, and then after that, make an insain strength check against a fortitude save + whatever the creatures strength mod. is.
Mordayn
07-08-06, 10:18 PM He could do this in many ways, coup de grace, reaping mauler's devastating grapple or by simply dealing enough damage with an unarmed strike in a grapple would suffice, it is not about making new rules but using the existing ones in creative ways. Creating a new system just for breaking necks when there are so many ways this could be resolved in the existing rules is redundant.
DecepticonHQ
07-09-06, 01:00 AM I'd probably describe a lethal crtical hit in a grapple as a neck-breaking.

As for an intentional move, I'd say grapple with all the usual penalties, plus throw in the neck-break as a coup-de-grace, but set an extra penalty somewhere because it's a freakin' Balor.
METAWIZARD
07-10-06, 07:52 AM He wants to be a neck snapper, let him put in the training time.
While that would certainly help the PC out...I think anyone who wants to, even without special training, should be at least able to try.

It's important to keep in mind that in combat, you are already trying to kill your opponent. Trying to specifically say you are doing something to kill them is redundent.
I think this kinda falls under the "called shot" category in that you target a specific body part to acheive a specific result. This can keep a PC from getting into a HP battle to determine who prevails in a fight.

I would say that the balor has to be grappled .............. If by some miracle he succedes, it would do damage as a coup de grace, maximum damage from a critical hit unarmed attack, balor must make fortitude save, DC=damage dealt or die.
First i would say they'd have to be in a grapple, and then after that, make an insain strength check against a fortitude save + whatever the creatures strength mod. is.
.........but set an extra penalty somewhere because it's a freakin' Balor

I like these ideas. I think I'm gonna use something with a combination of these last three. Maybe a grapple check+coup de grace with the balor adding in his ST mod for good measure, and of course a little something extra in there somewhere because it's "A FREAKIN' BALOR". Thanks a lot for the input guys. I feel thoroughly enlightened.

I'd probably describe a lethal crtical hit in a grapple as a neck-breaking.
ok...this is a kind of gray area for me...can you crit with a grapple check since it's not actually an attack roll? :confused:
kelvinaw273
07-10-06, 08:08 AM Oh gods ... I see players trying it every last time now ....

Breaking a neck in a grapple can be represented as cumulative damage from grappling, perhaps in death by massive damage. A monk might be ruled to have done so in grappling, or a Reaping Mauler.

Basically, you could do it as a coup-de-grace as well, but it actually isn't that easy to do in melee .... just like the killing points that a martial artist can hit are valid, but not always struck.
EldonG
07-10-06, 09:14 AM Man...wow...snapping a Balor's neck...geez...next thing you know, they'll be trying to break down the castle gates with a well placed knee jab...
FearlessLeader
07-10-06, 09:18 AM We had a very similar problem in our group.We were fighting a human psion/Thrallherd that had recently defeated our tankful goliath druid when he was alone in the middle of the woods. Said druid had then been imprisoned in a very evil and painful way. We were fighting the psion while trying to escape. Anyways, this guy had a penchant for death effects, it wasn't pretty. He killed our Warforged Psychic Warrior with some power. The druid in a fit of understandable rage asked our DM "What do I have to do to break his neck?". The DM responded "Well, first you have to pin him." After the psion was pinned we decided this: First you grapple, then you pin, then you make opposed strength checks, then you have to make a strength check to excede the break DC of the bones, then the breakee makes a constitution check to avoid dying. But, in our case it was clearly roleplaying, not metagaming. I think it might have been a bit different in your case. If you were worried about ending the encounter quickly then it shows that your PCs probably weren't ready to be fighting a Balor, your BBEG's don't neccesarily have to be big. Make up for a lack of actual strength in pure evil.
TarlSS
07-10-06, 09:25 AM Called shots in D&D are always a terrible idea. The system and game balance simply isn't designed to support it.
DarknessEternal
07-10-06, 10:21 AM It's pretty simple; you do enough damage with an unarmed attack to kill your target. Then feel free to describe it however you like.

Everyone is trying to kill whatever they're attacking with every single attack in D&D.
METAWIZARD
07-10-06, 09:14 PM Breaking a neck in a grapple can be represented as cumulative damage from grappling,....
said PC was trying to end the encounter more quickly than that. He could have done far more damage with his hammer if he wanted to take that long.
next thing you know, they'll be trying to break down the castle gates with a well placed knee jab...
Well, yes, this particular PC has some sort of inferiority complex. He's always trying to accomplish the impossible with his characters. You may have just gave him an idea with the castle gate thing. LOL
If you were worried about ending the encounter quickly then it shows that your PCs probably weren't ready to be fighting a Balor, your BBEG's don't neccesarily have to be big. Make up for a lack of actual strength in pure evil.
The Balor's presence in the adventure was not planned. He appeared as part of a unique set of circumstances that could not have been easily foreseen. "UMD rogue with gate scroll under psionic influence". Said scroll was a randomly generated treasure.
Called shots in D&D are always a terrible idea. The system and game balance simply isn't designed to support it.
As I recall, the 3.0 version of the PHB had rules for called shots. I remember a phrase from the pages "a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye". I thought I'd peruse the 3.5 PH and try referencing the rules for called shots but cannot seem to find them anywhere. Did WoTC take that aspect out of the game entirely? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to details.
It's pretty simple; you do enough damage with an unarmed attack to kill your target. Then feel free to describe it however you like.
Theatrics are real nice and all, but the PC wanted to acheive a specific effect and quickly.
Empress_of_Death
07-10-06, 09:43 PM I did not enjoy being the one at the epicenter of the balor's death throes when the above mentioned PC decided to be cute and break the balor's neck. Had I been the DM it would not have gone down that easy. 100 hp gone and all our equipment too!
DarknessEternal
07-11-06, 03:05 AM As I recall, the 3.0 version of the PHB had rules for called shots.
You recall incorrectly.

The only called shots that existed in 3.0 are the ones that still exist in 3.5; namely, Power Attack, sneak attack, Hamstring, etc.
allenchan
07-11-06, 03:12 AM I think this kinda falls under the "called shot" category in that you target a specific body part to acheive a specific result. This can keep a PC from getting into a HP battle to determine who prevails in a fight.

Thankfully, there are no called shots in dnd, and nor should there be. Next?
Cifer
07-11-06, 01:15 PM I'd also advise against called shots. The reason is simple: Everything the PCs do, the NPCs probably can do too - and how often have they fought ogres and stuff with strength scores that are two or three times the PCs'? Why didn't they just grapple and break necks?

Generally, implementing something that increases randomness in the game (all-or-nothing) will always turn out bad for the PCs because it will hit them someday.
SeraphimDominion
07-11-06, 02:03 PM Once you establish a rule for insta-killing enemies, there's nothing stopping the PCs from simply doing it to every enemy they come across. Then it's difficult to justify why the enemies arent doing it right back, if it's so easy to just decide your enemy is dead.
Derren S.
07-11-06, 02:16 PM "I want to break his neck"....
What do you think a character is trying to do when he attacks with lethal force in a grapple? Exactly that.
So no, you should not make any special rules for breaking the Balors neck. If the PC manages to reduce the HP of the Balor to -10 while in grapple he can describe it as breaking his neck. That is all.
Grand Theft Otto
07-11-06, 02:26 PM said PC was trying to end the encounter more quickly than that. He could have done far more damage with his hammer if he wanted to take that long.

Why didnt he bash the balor's head in with the warhammer then? Or just cut off his head with his sword? You understand what we're getting at? Everyone wants to get a 1 hit kill. Its a bad idea to let them happen. If you want to institute such a rule, have it be on 2 natural 20's or something. Just because you want to attempt something doesnt mean you should have a chance to do it. A character with 2 ranks of jump might want to fly, but you shouldnt make it a DC 20 jump check to let him...

As I recall, the 3.0 version of the PHB had rules for called shots. I remember a phrase from the pages "a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye". I thought I'd peruse the 3.5 PH and try referencing the rules for called shots but cannot seem to find them anywhere. Did WoTC take that aspect out of the game entirely? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to details.

Thats on helpless characters. The balor, presumably, wasnt helpless. You cant "stab someone in the eye" otherwise wizards with quickened true strikes would rule the world. Critical hits in D&D are a bad idea in general, otherwise no one has any eyes, hands or balls left by level 3.

Theatrics are real nice and all, but the PC wanted to acheive a specific effect and quickly.

Thats what everyone wants to do every round of combat. Unfortunately, theres those pesky hit points that get in the way. Bypassing them is a bad idea.
illiterate
07-11-06, 02:26 PM The day my GM houserules in called shots is the day I put true strike in my spellbook.

:evillaugh
EldonG
07-11-06, 02:36 PM Well, now, I have a great idea...if snapping necks is apparently so easy for someone with vastly lower stats, why not just have giants as an encounter, and break every PC's neck? Should be easy, with their incredible strength and leverage advantage, and it might get any player foolish enough to attempt to derail the rules to just shut up.
orionm42
07-11-06, 02:54 PM If the PC manages to reduce the HP of the Balor to -10 while in grapple he can describe it as breaking his neck.

Hmmmm...gives me an idea.

The next time this PC gets killed by a critical blow with a natural weapon, tell the player the monster pimp slapped him and fractured his scull.

DM: As you fall to the ground, you vaguely discern the sounds of taunting laughter. The beast lords over you and proclaims..."How'd ya like THAT bee-yotch!!"
Derren S.
07-11-06, 03:01 PM Why critical hit? Any hit could represent that as long as the hit reduces him below -10.
METAWIZARD
07-11-06, 07:49 PM You recall incorrectly.

The only called shots that existed in 3.0 are the ones that still exist in 3.5; namely, Power Attack, sneak attack, Hamstring, etc
Thats on helpless characters. The balor, presumably, wasnt helpless.
Ok, I blew the dust off my 3.0 PHB and found the line I was thinking of. I have erred greviously, I must humbly admit. With this info, I think the concept of breaking the neck of any NPC or monster should be left entirely to the DM's discretion after reducing a creature's HP to -10 through grappling, and certainly not as a deliberate attempt by the PCs.
if snapping necks is apparently so easy for someone with vastly lower stats, why not just have giants as an encounter, and break every PC's neck?
well, actually, the PC was playing a Midguard Dwarf and had a strength score that rivals that of the average Balor.
he's one of those players who always seems to get AT LEAST 3 natural 18s on his stats before any racial adjustments. go figure.....then, of course add on magic bonuses from any items he has....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
METAWIZARD 07-08-06, 07:57 AM	Situation came up in game where a PC wanted to break the neck of a Balor with his bare hands. Wise to end the encounter as quickly as possible if not a little unwise with the method. Anyways, I thought a strength check from the PC and a fort save from the Balor might resolve this. I've heard other suggestions of simply using opposed strength checks to see if the Balor could resist the attack. I'm open to suggestions from anyone wanting to add their own ideas or share some of their own house rules..I already did the "ask wizards" thing and they didn't respond, so I'm asking everyone else. Please enlighten me....... :teach:
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-08-06, 07:59 AM	That's called "Devastating Grapple". It's a Reaping Mauler class feature. (see Complete Warrior) He wants to be a neck snapper, let him put in the training time.
Nor'Morgwae 07-08-06, 05:41 PM	It needs to be a lot harder than an opposed roll. The above poster is right that Devastating Grapple could cause such an effect (it is, technically just a death ability though, so it can represent any number of things from breaking the neck, to crushing the. Even choking or suffocation are viable descriptions for the effect). First off neck breaking isn't as easy as it looks on TV. There is a lot of muscle and tendon and stuff there (i'm not a doctor, can you tell?). It takes a lot of force to snap it. A Balor is even harder because they have insane strength and constitution (and a neck the size of the character's waist). I would have resolved is as an unarmed Coup de Grace (with all of the restrictions thereof; i.e. the Balor must be helpless). Unless you are a monk snapping the neck is just not gonna happen. It's important to keep in mind that in combat, you are already trying to kill your opponent. Trying to specifically say you are doing something to kill them is redundent. :fight!: "I'm not going to do a normal attack this round, this round I'm going to try to cut his head off!" :nonono: "What the :censored: do you think you were trying to do last round?"
Voldar_Mecorthio 07-08-06, 09:25 PM	I would say that the balor has to be grappled (painful for the grappler), then he would have to make a strength check opposed by the balor's, the balor would get a +4 bonus since he's large size, plus his enormous strength would make the task nearly impossable. If by some miracle he succedes, it would do damage as a coup de grace, maximum damage from a critical hit unarmed attack, balor must make fortitude save, DC=damage dealt or die.
Piggyfreak6 07-08-06, 09:56 PM	First i would say they'd have to be in a grapple, and then after that, make an insain strength check against a fortitude save + whatever the creatures strength mod. is.
Mordayn 07-08-06, 10:18 PM	He could do this in many ways, coup de grace, reaping mauler's devastating grapple or by simply dealing enough damage with an unarmed strike in a grapple would suffice, it is not about making new rules but using the existing ones in creative ways. Creating a new system just for breaking necks when there are so many ways this could be resolved in the existing rules is redundant.
DecepticonHQ 07-09-06, 01:00 AM	I'd probably describe a lethal crtical hit in a grapple as a neck-breaking. As for an intentional move, I'd say grapple with all the usual penalties, plus throw in the neck-break as a coup-de-grace, but set an extra penalty somewhere because it's a freakin' Balor.
METAWIZARD 07-10-06, 07:52 AM	He wants to be a neck snapper, let him put in the training time. While that would certainly help the PC out...I think anyone who wants to, even without special training, should be at least able to try. It's important to keep in mind that in combat, you are already trying to kill your opponent. Trying to specifically say you are doing something to kill them is redundent. I think this kinda falls under the "called shot" category in that you target a specific body part to acheive a specific result. This can keep a PC from getting into a HP battle to determine who prevails in a fight. I would say that the balor has to be grappled .............. If by some miracle he succedes, it would do damage as a coup de grace, maximum damage from a critical hit unarmed attack, balor must make fortitude save, DC=damage dealt or die. First i would say they'd have to be in a grapple, and then after that, make an insain strength check against a fortitude save + whatever the creatures strength mod. is. .........but set an extra penalty somewhere because it's a freakin' Balor I like these ideas. I think I'm gonna use something with a combination of these last three. Maybe a grapple check+coup de grace with the balor adding in his ST mod for good measure, and of course a little something extra in there somewhere because it's "A FREAKIN' BALOR". Thanks a lot for the input guys. I feel thoroughly enlightened. I'd probably describe a lethal crtical hit in a grapple as a neck-breaking. ok...this is a kind of gray area for me...can you crit with a grapple check since it's not actually an attack roll? :confused:
kelvinaw273 07-10-06, 08:08 AM	Oh gods ... I see players trying it every last time now .... Breaking a neck in a grapple can be represented as cumulative damage from grappling, perhaps in death by massive damage. A monk might be ruled to have done so in grappling, or a Reaping Mauler. Basically, you could do it as a coup-de-grace as well, but it actually isn't that easy to do in melee .... just like the killing points that a martial artist can hit are valid, but not always struck.
EldonG 07-10-06, 09:14 AM	Man...wow...snapping a Balor's neck...geez...next thing you know, they'll be trying to break down the castle gates with a well placed knee jab...
FearlessLeader 07-10-06, 09:18 AM	We had a very similar problem in our group.We were fighting a human psion/Thrallherd that had recently defeated our tankful goliath druid when he was alone in the middle of the woods. Said druid had then been imprisoned in a very evil and painful way. We were fighting the psion while trying to escape. Anyways, this guy had a penchant for death effects, it wasn't pretty. He killed our Warforged Psychic Warrior with some power. The druid in a fit of understandable rage asked our DM "What do I have to do to break his neck?". The DM responded "Well, first you have to pin him." After the psion was pinned we decided this: First you grapple, then you pin, then you make opposed strength checks, then you have to make a strength check to excede the break DC of the bones, then the breakee makes a constitution check to avoid dying. But, in our case it was clearly roleplaying, not metagaming. I think it might have been a bit different in your case. If you were worried about ending the encounter quickly then it shows that your PCs probably weren't ready to be fighting a Balor, your BBEG's don't neccesarily have to be big. Make up for a lack of actual strength in pure evil.
TarlSS 07-10-06, 09:25 AM	Called shots in D&D are always a terrible idea. The system and game balance simply isn't designed to support it.
DarknessEternal 07-10-06, 10:21 AM	It's pretty simple; you do enough damage with an unarmed attack to kill your target. Then feel free to describe it however you like. Everyone is trying to kill whatever they're attacking with every single attack in D&D.
METAWIZARD 07-10-06, 09:14 PM	Breaking a neck in a grapple can be represented as cumulative damage from grappling,.... said PC was trying to end the encounter more quickly than that. He could have done far more damage with his hammer if he wanted to take that long. next thing you know, they'll be trying to break down the castle gates with a well placed knee jab... Well, yes, this particular PC has some sort of inferiority complex. He's always trying to accomplish the impossible with his characters. You may have just gave him an idea with the castle gate thing. LOL If you were worried about ending the encounter quickly then it shows that your PCs probably weren't ready to be fighting a Balor, your BBEG's don't neccesarily have to be big. Make up for a lack of actual strength in pure evil. The Balor's presence in the adventure was not planned. He appeared as part of a unique set of circumstances that could not have been easily foreseen. "UMD rogue with gate scroll under psionic influence". Said scroll was a randomly generated treasure. Called shots in D&D are always a terrible idea. The system and game balance simply isn't designed to support it. As I recall, the 3.0 version of the PHB had rules for called shots. I remember a phrase from the pages "a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye". I thought I'd peruse the 3.5 PH and try referencing the rules for called shots but cannot seem to find them anywhere. Did WoTC take that aspect out of the game entirely? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to details. It's pretty simple; you do enough damage with an unarmed attack to kill your target. Then feel free to describe it however you like. Theatrics are real nice and all, but the PC wanted to acheive a specific effect and quickly.
Empress_of_Death 07-10-06, 09:43 PM	I did not enjoy being the one at the epicenter of the balor's death throes when the above mentioned PC decided to be cute and break the balor's neck. Had I been the DM it would not have gone down that easy. 100 hp gone and all our equipment too!
DarknessEternal 07-11-06, 03:05 AM	As I recall, the 3.0 version of the PHB had rules for called shots. You recall incorrectly. The only called shots that existed in 3.0 are the ones that still exist in 3.5; namely, Power Attack, sneak attack, Hamstring, etc.
allenchan 07-11-06, 03:12 AM	I think this kinda falls under the "called shot" category in that you target a specific body part to acheive a specific result. This can keep a PC from getting into a HP battle to determine who prevails in a fight. Thankfully, there are no called shots in dnd, and nor should there be. Next?
Cifer 07-11-06, 01:15 PM	I'd also advise against called shots. The reason is simple: Everything the PCs do, the NPCs probably can do too - and how often have they fought ogres and stuff with strength scores that are two or three times the PCs'? Why didn't they just grapple and break necks? Generally, implementing something that increases randomness in the game (all-or-nothing) will always turn out bad for the PCs because it will hit them someday.
SeraphimDominion 07-11-06, 02:03 PM	Once you establish a rule for insta-killing enemies, there's nothing stopping the PCs from simply doing it to every enemy they come across. Then it's difficult to justify why the enemies arent doing it right back, if it's so easy to just decide your enemy is dead.
Derren S. 07-11-06, 02:16 PM	"I want to break his neck".... What do you think a character is trying to do when he attacks with lethal force in a grapple? Exactly that. So no, you should not make any special rules for breaking the Balors neck. If the PC manages to reduce the HP of the Balor to -10 while in grapple he can describe it as breaking his neck. That is all.
Grand Theft Otto 07-11-06, 02:26 PM	said PC was trying to end the encounter more quickly than that. He could have done far more damage with his hammer if he wanted to take that long. Why didnt he bash the balor's head in with the warhammer then? Or just cut off his head with his sword? You understand what we're getting at? Everyone wants to get a 1 hit kill. Its a bad idea to let them happen. If you want to institute such a rule, have it be on 2 natural 20's or something. Just because you want to attempt something doesnt mean you should have a chance to do it. A character with 2 ranks of jump might want to fly, but you shouldnt make it a DC 20 jump check to let him... As I recall, the 3.0 version of the PHB had rules for called shots. I remember a phrase from the pages "a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye". I thought I'd peruse the 3.5 PH and try referencing the rules for called shots but cannot seem to find them anywhere. Did WoTC take that aspect out of the game entirely? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to details. Thats on helpless characters. The balor, presumably, wasnt helpless. You cant "stab someone in the eye" otherwise wizards with quickened true strikes would rule the world. Critical hits in D&D are a bad idea in general, otherwise no one has any eyes, hands or balls left by level 3. Theatrics are real nice and all, but the PC wanted to acheive a specific effect and quickly. Thats what everyone wants to do every round of combat. Unfortunately, theres those pesky hit points that get in the way. Bypassing them is a bad idea.
illiterate 07-11-06, 02:26 PM	The day my GM houserules in called shots is the day I put true strike in my spellbook. :evillaugh
EldonG 07-11-06, 02:36 PM	Well, now, I have a great idea...if snapping necks is apparently so easy for someone with vastly lower stats, why not just have giants as an encounter, and break every PC's neck? Should be easy, with their incredible strength and leverage advantage, and it might get any player foolish enough to attempt to derail the rules to just shut up.
orionm42 07-11-06, 02:54 PM	If the PC manages to reduce the HP of the Balor to -10 while in grapple he can describe it as breaking his neck. Hmmmm...gives me an idea. The next time this PC gets killed by a critical blow with a natural weapon, tell the player the monster pimp slapped him and fractured his scull. DM: As you fall to the ground, you vaguely discern the sounds of taunting laughter. The beast lords over you and proclaims..."How'd ya like THAT bee-yotch!!"
Derren S. 07-11-06, 03:01 PM	Why critical hit? Any hit could represent that as long as the hit reduces him below -10.
METAWIZARD 07-11-06, 07:49 PM	You recall incorrectly. The only called shots that existed in 3.0 are the ones that still exist in 3.5; namely, Power Attack, sneak attack, Hamstring, etc Thats on helpless characters. The balor, presumably, wasnt helpless. Ok, I blew the dust off my 3.0 PHB and found the line I was thinking of. I have erred greviously, I must humbly admit. With this info, I think the concept of breaking the neck of any NPC or monster should be left entirely to the DM's discretion after reducing a creature's HP to -10 through grappling, and certainly not as a deliberate attempt by the PCs. if snapping necks is apparently so easy for someone with vastly lower stats, why not just have giants as an encounter, and break every PC's neck? well, actually, the PC was playing a Midguard Dwarf and had a strength score that rivals that of the average Balor. he's one of those players who always seems to get AT LEAST 3 natural 18s on his stats before any racial adjustments. go figure.....then, of course add on magic bonuses from any items he has....