Breaking necks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking necks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Geraldo_Krunck
03-01-06, 04:07 PM Ok DMs i want to go up behind someone and break their neck while in combat or possibly out of combat. My DM wont let me and he says because he does not know what kind a checks i have to roll.

So my question to you is what kind a checks do i have to roll?
Zarron
03-01-06, 04:12 PM Sounds to me like you're attempting to kill your target in one blow.

Assuming your character has this sort of knowledge, it would probably be best represented by sneaking combined with a (hopefully) surprise attack roll.
Lincoln Hills
03-01-06, 04:12 PM The 3rd Edition combat mechanic is not set up to support any form of called shots or instant death attacks (outside coup-de-grace situations and certain prestige class abilities.) This was a deliberate choice. It is possible to create a combat system in which a foe taken by surprise can be killed instantly... but when such rules are used, sooner or later they result in a player's character being killed by surprise, with no chance of defending himself. That's not much fun: which is why 3rd Edition doesn't include rules for it.

Your only real option is to attempt to catch your enemy flat-footed and maximize your damage in whatever way is possible (two-handed weapon, Power Attack, etc.) If they're still alive... well, hey, at least you shaved off some hit points before combat began.
Zetakya
03-01-06, 04:14 PM Breaking someones neck would probably be a flavour text variation on a coup de grace, so you'd have to fulfil the requirements for that, IMO.
SoulLord
03-01-06, 04:15 PM If your dm allows it

just do a Coup De Grace the damage you deal would be the save dc vs death from the victim
DanjaNinja
03-01-06, 04:20 PM By the RAW, there is no check that allows you to instantly kill someone in the middle of combat. The only thing that really comes close to what you're talking about is the Rogue's Sneak Attack and the Assassin's Death Attack.
DarthMarasmus
03-01-06, 04:20 PM I've done that sort of thing before, but I was playing a 30th level ranger/rogue when I did it. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but I'm not your DM. The way I look at it, if it were to happen to one of my players, it's not like they can't be resurrected or reincarnated (and I'd make it up to them somehow along those lines).

In all, I can't really give you any good advice, ask your DM what he requires for you to do this. I like Zetakya's thoughts on it, though, so if they're in a position where a coup de grace would work, then go for it.
raven darqhart
03-01-06, 04:26 PM 1- Move Silently Check to sneak up behind them
2- Grapple Check to grab them(they would be flat footed)
3- Strength Check to break the neck(Any non-monk/ninja character should take a -2 penalty for lack of knowledge of such techniques)
Millennium
03-01-06, 04:53 PM This isn't really covered by the D&D rules, but I'd argue it as basically being the same as performing a coup de grace with an unarmed strike (treating the unarmed strike as doing lethal damage for this purpose).

First you'd have to catch the opponent flat-footed. The easiest way to do this is probably by just sneaking up on him, but if you have other means available those will work too. After that, use a full-round action to perform the coup de grace: automatic hit, automatic critical hit, and even if the opponent survives the damage he has to make a Fort save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or he dies anyway. The coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity, though your target can't take an AoO since he's flat-footed. Bystanders might be ablt to take an AoO against you, though, and if they succeed then the break fails.

Within the abstract combat system of D&D, this provides for a fairly realistic way of doing things. You've got to sneak up on the opponent and prepare carefully for the break. The break isn't guaranteed to succeed, but even if it fails it's going to hurt like hell.
olshanski_home
03-01-06, 04:58 PM There are too many errors in this thread to count.

How to break a neck:
If you have the ability to deal lethal damage with your unarmed strike, simply deal enough damage to kill the opponent and for flavor text have the DM say "You break his neck".
This ideally works with something like a 5th level monk vs a 1st level warrior or 2nd level commoner.

Otherwise, if you coup-de-grace someone, you can have the DM supply flavor text that "you break his neck".

If you have sneak attack damage, it is much easier to kill with the unarmed strike or the coup-de-grace.

You cannot coup-de-grace someone unless they are helpless. Flat footed is not helpless. Suprised is not helpless. Grappled is not helpless.
Purkake
03-01-06, 05:20 PM People should underestand that hit points were created for the very purpuse of avoiding one-hit kills. So DnD is avoiding such random deaths in combat to increase the "fantasy" factor in the game.

So by RAW it isn't supported as you would like it. The best you can do is, as mentioned before, use it as the fluff text for kills.

Also note that yes, it will unbalance the game if you allow it as the people here are suggesting.
Agognon
03-01-06, 05:34 PM It will unbalance the game in favor of the DM. After he allows you to do it, it will only be a matter of time before he starts doing it to you and your party. Allowing this will mean more PC deaths.
Zarron
03-01-06, 05:38 PM I should have been more clear with what I said. Basically, sneak up, do the attack, and hope it kills in one hit, then tell the DM how you did said damage (within reason).
allenchan
03-01-06, 05:38 PM Sure, you can do it. But obviously only to people with 1 level, anything mroe then that and the abstract HP system would make it so they were experienced enough/good enough to prevent you from outright killing them.
mvincent
03-01-06, 06:18 PM People should underestand that hit points were created for the very purpuse of avoiding one-hit kills.To be fair, one-hit kills are still fairly common in D&D, with hit-points. D&D is abstract, so if you are dealing with a low-level scrub (or someone that has already taken a lot of damage) that you can kill in one round, you can describe the action as anything you like.

However, if you're dealing with something of higher level, you're not going to finish them off at "break neck" speeds (as it should be). You could still grapple and pin the target during the first round, preventing him from speaking or escaping. Subsequent grapple damage could finish him off... describe it as you see fit.
Raum_ul_Amon
03-01-06, 06:22 PM HA HA HA HA HA HA

*looks around to see if anybody is taking this seriously*

eh?

oh .. sorry .. My Bad
DarknessEternal
03-01-06, 06:27 PM Assuming you're not just a forum troll, the game has a well established system for doing this:

Hit Points and Sneak Attack.

If you kill someone with your Sneak Attack, describe it however the hell you want. If you don't kill him, he's not dead and you didn't break anything, except maybe a sweat.

There's no need for an elaborate called shot/complex attack system in D&D, it already has those generically built in.
Purkake
03-01-06, 06:38 PM Well maybe the first and second level...

Also compare the hp system to the wound/vitality system. In the Star Wars RPG everyone knows that one hit might kill you, no matter if it is some streetpunk or an assassin. In DnD there are often situations where the barbarian will just say "I have enough hp to survive even the maximum falling damage so I'll just jump the cliff".
Arcaneloremist
03-01-06, 06:45 PM I would have a rule that makes opponents that are surprised make a Save or die like the coup-de-grace. Just let PCs only do this, You never see in a Movie the hero get his neck broken. Just treat it as a coup-de-grace attack but with Unarmed damage or Dagger damage (only small weapons like the Dagger can be used besides hands).
Snargash MoonClaw
03-01-06, 06:49 PM plenty of material for this (and similar silent kills attacks) in the following thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=572810
Vestigial_Thumb
03-01-06, 06:50 PM I'm gonna try my best to be helpful:

1. Sneak up on target (move silently)
2. Grapple
3. Strength check vs. Fortitude Save. You gain the target's size modifier to your Strength check and the target gains your size modifier to its Save (after all, it's hard to break the neck of something way bigger than you are). It should be impossible to break the neck of a creature two sizes larger than you (it's got something to do with hands), but who hasn't dreamed of wrestling down a dragon?
cypherx
03-01-06, 06:57 PM use power attack if you have it, sneak attack also represents it.

somewhere there should be rules on an all out attack of some sort, where you sacrifice armor class and attack for damage, but i don't know where.

these would all represent that.
mvincent
03-01-06, 07:04 PM Well maybe the first and second level...Actually, I've been finding that at any level most well-made characters can easily kill someone of equal level in one-round, even if using just the core rules and no prestige classes.
danzig138
03-01-06, 07:05 PM Deal 50+ points and hope he fails his massive damage save. Otherwise, I'd say go with a mid-high level Rogue/Monk mix for the unarmed sneak attack.

Or convince the DM to allow CsG in situations other than helpless, like "completely unaware and surprised".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Geraldo_Krunck 03-01-06, 04:07 PM	Ok DMs i want to go up behind someone and break their neck while in combat or possibly out of combat. My DM wont let me and he says because he does not know what kind a checks i have to roll. So my question to you is what kind a checks do i have to roll?
Zarron 03-01-06, 04:12 PM	Sounds to me like you're attempting to kill your target in one blow. Assuming your character has this sort of knowledge, it would probably be best represented by sneaking combined with a (hopefully) surprise attack roll.
Lincoln Hills 03-01-06, 04:12 PM	The 3rd Edition combat mechanic is not set up to support any form of called shots or instant death attacks (outside coup-de-grace situations and certain prestige class abilities.) This was a deliberate choice. It is possible to create a combat system in which a foe taken by surprise can be killed instantly... but when such rules are used, sooner or later they result in a player's character being killed by surprise, with no chance of defending himself. That's not much fun: which is why 3rd Edition doesn't include rules for it. Your only real option is to attempt to catch your enemy flat-footed and maximize your damage in whatever way is possible (two-handed weapon, Power Attack, etc.) If they're still alive... well, hey, at least you shaved off some hit points before combat began.
Zetakya 03-01-06, 04:14 PM	Breaking someones neck would probably be a flavour text variation on a coup de grace, so you'd have to fulfil the requirements for that, IMO.
SoulLord 03-01-06, 04:15 PM	If your dm allows it just do a Coup De Grace the damage you deal would be the save dc vs death from the victim
DanjaNinja 03-01-06, 04:20 PM	By the RAW, there is no check that allows you to instantly kill someone in the middle of combat. The only thing that really comes close to what you're talking about is the Rogue's Sneak Attack and the Assassin's Death Attack.
DarthMarasmus 03-01-06, 04:20 PM	I've done that sort of thing before, but I was playing a 30th level ranger/rogue when I did it. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but I'm not your DM. The way I look at it, if it were to happen to one of my players, it's not like they can't be resurrected or reincarnated (and I'd make it up to them somehow along those lines). In all, I can't really give you any good advice, ask your DM what he requires for you to do this. I like Zetakya's thoughts on it, though, so if they're in a position where a coup de grace would work, then go for it.
raven darqhart 03-01-06, 04:26 PM	1- Move Silently Check to sneak up behind them 2- Grapple Check to grab them(they would be flat footed) 3- Strength Check to break the neck(Any non-monk/ninja character should take a -2 penalty for lack of knowledge of such techniques)
Millennium 03-01-06, 04:53 PM	This isn't really covered by the D&D rules, but I'd argue it as basically being the same as performing a coup de grace with an unarmed strike (treating the unarmed strike as doing lethal damage for this purpose). First you'd have to catch the opponent flat-footed. The easiest way to do this is probably by just sneaking up on him, but if you have other means available those will work too. After that, use a full-round action to perform the coup de grace: automatic hit, automatic critical hit, and even if the opponent survives the damage he has to make a Fort save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or he dies anyway. The coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity, though your target can't take an AoO since he's flat-footed. Bystanders might be ablt to take an AoO against you, though, and if they succeed then the break fails. Within the abstract combat system of D&D, this provides for a fairly realistic way of doing things. You've got to sneak up on the opponent and prepare carefully for the break. The break isn't guaranteed to succeed, but even if it fails it's going to hurt like hell.
olshanski_home 03-01-06, 04:58 PM	There are too many errors in this thread to count. How to break a neck: If you have the ability to deal lethal damage with your unarmed strike, simply deal enough damage to kill the opponent and for flavor text have the DM say "You break his neck". This ideally works with something like a 5th level monk vs a 1st level warrior or 2nd level commoner. Otherwise, if you coup-de-grace someone, you can have the DM supply flavor text that "you break his neck". If you have sneak attack damage, it is much easier to kill with the unarmed strike or the coup-de-grace. You cannot coup-de-grace someone unless they are helpless. Flat footed is not helpless. Suprised is not helpless. Grappled is not helpless.
Purkake 03-01-06, 05:20 PM	People should underestand that hit points were created for the very purpuse of avoiding one-hit kills. So DnD is avoiding such random deaths in combat to increase the "fantasy" factor in the game. So by RAW it isn't supported as you would like it. The best you can do is, as mentioned before, use it as the fluff text for kills. Also note that yes, it will unbalance the game if you allow it as the people here are suggesting.
Agognon 03-01-06, 05:34 PM	It will unbalance the game in favor of the DM. After he allows you to do it, it will only be a matter of time before he starts doing it to you and your party. Allowing this will mean more PC deaths.
Zarron 03-01-06, 05:38 PM	I should have been more clear with what I said. Basically, sneak up, do the attack, and hope it kills in one hit, then tell the DM how you did said damage (within reason).
allenchan 03-01-06, 05:38 PM	Sure, you can do it. But obviously only to people with 1 level, anything mroe then that and the abstract HP system would make it so they were experienced enough/good enough to prevent you from outright killing them.
mvincent 03-01-06, 06:18 PM	People should underestand that hit points were created for the very purpuse of avoiding one-hit kills.To be fair, one-hit kills are still fairly common in D&D, with hit-points. D&D is abstract, so if you are dealing with a low-level scrub (or someone that has already taken a lot of damage) that you can kill in one round, you can describe the action as anything you like. However, if you're dealing with something of higher level, you're not going to finish them off at "break neck" speeds (as it should be). You could still grapple and pin the target during the first round, preventing him from speaking or escaping. Subsequent grapple damage could finish him off... describe it as you see fit.
Raum_ul_Amon 03-01-06, 06:22 PM	HA HA HA HA HA HA looks around to see if anybody is taking this seriously eh? oh .. sorry .. My Bad
DarknessEternal 03-01-06, 06:27 PM	Assuming you're not just a forum troll, the game has a well established system for doing this: Hit Points and Sneak Attack. If you kill someone with your Sneak Attack, describe it however the hell you want. If you don't kill him, he's not dead and you didn't break anything, except maybe a sweat. There's no need for an elaborate called shot/complex attack system in D&D, it already has those generically built in.
Purkake 03-01-06, 06:38 PM	Well maybe the first and second level... Also compare the hp system to the wound/vitality system. In the Star Wars RPG everyone knows that one hit might kill you, no matter if it is some streetpunk or an assassin. In DnD there are often situations where the barbarian will just say "I have enough hp to survive even the maximum falling damage so I'll just jump the cliff".
Arcaneloremist 03-01-06, 06:45 PM	I would have a rule that makes opponents that are surprised make a Save or die like the coup-de-grace. Just let PCs only do this, You never see in a Movie the hero get his neck broken. Just treat it as a coup-de-grace attack but with Unarmed damage or Dagger damage (only small weapons like the Dagger can be used besides hands).
Snargash MoonClaw 03-01-06, 06:49 PM	plenty of material for this (and similar silent kills attacks) in the following thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=572810
Vestigial_Thumb 03-01-06, 06:50 PM	I'm gonna try my best to be helpful: 1. Sneak up on target (move silently) 2. Grapple 3. Strength check vs. Fortitude Save. You gain the target's size modifier to your Strength check and the target gains your size modifier to its Save (after all, it's hard to break the neck of something way bigger than you are). It should be impossible to break the neck of a creature two sizes larger than you (it's got something to do with hands), but who hasn't dreamed of wrestling down a dragon?
cypherx 03-01-06, 06:57 PM	use power attack if you have it, sneak attack also represents it. somewhere there should be rules on an all out attack of some sort, where you sacrifice armor class and attack for damage, but i don't know where. these would all represent that.
mvincent 03-01-06, 07:04 PM	Well maybe the first and second level...Actually, I've been finding that at any level most well-made characters can easily kill someone of equal level in one-round, even if using just the core rules and no prestige classes.
danzig138 03-01-06, 07:05 PM	Deal 50+ points and hope he fails his massive damage save. Otherwise, I'd say go with a mid-high level Rogue/Monk mix for the unarmed sneak attack. Or convince the DM to allow CsG in situations other than helpless, like "completely unaware and surprised".