Breaking their will [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking their will [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edwind
03-18-06, 08:52 PM My PC has come up with the idea of kidnapping women and turning them into slaves, but he can't get his hands on some kind of item to gain them under his control so he asked if he could "break their will" and generally remove their freewill and basically she just does whatever he says. Any ideas or systems anybody have that would help me in this situation?

I'll post my idea when I have more time, but I would like to see if there is any systems already out there first.

Thanks
Edwind
Chybi
03-18-06, 09:11 PM I'm not sure, but isn't there a torture system in the Book of Vile Darkness?

I don't have it anywhere near me, but I vaguely remember something along those lines.
cvazi
03-18-06, 09:13 PM Dominate Person? (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)
dungeonmasterblog
03-18-06, 09:14 PM Sounds a little twisted.

Dungeon Master
http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
Lina_Inverse
03-18-06, 09:38 PM Hes lawful right?

IF yes theres stuff on this in the book of exalted deeds/book of vile darkness. Generally its alot of intimidate/diplomacy checks, lots of them.

Or you can just use dominate person and be done with it.
Mist of Shadows
03-18-06, 09:45 PM I suggest finding new people to play with.

There is the thral of red wizards class :)

There are a few spells to do it.

There is the tried and true killing one of the people messilly and in front of the rest to scare them and cause he sounds like a jerk.

Honestly have the local paladin come in and kill them.
I suggest having them capture the local archmage's daughters and then watching as they die.

This sounds to me like you shouldn't be running this type of game. I know I would kill the characters if they started that crap. That being said the book of vile darkness has the things you want.
HalasterAteMyHamster
03-18-06, 09:47 PM BoVD has two items for this purpose - the Master Ring and the Slave Ring. Suffice it to say, the wearer of the MR mess up a wearer of a SR.
Edwind
03-19-06, 01:50 AM I know he could just use dominate person but he doesn't have access to that spell..Or any spell like that for that matter. He's a NE Rogue, but the things he's been up to we both agree he's shifting to CE and will eventually end up there in a session or two

Its an Evil game, thats why there acting like this (probably should have said that before)

I kinda want a system that doesnt cost uber gold to do. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of iunno, wisdom/intelligence checks whenever he puts her through something which I'd rather not say due to cencorship but it involves a room of Half Orcs.

I don't want to just kill them because that would ruin the point of the game.

Again, is there any kind of system or rules someone has seen or come up with themselves?
Vennettai
03-19-06, 04:05 AM people can be subjected to only so much trauma before they break. id say just make will checks for the stuff hes doing. after a few fails the girl will become completly crazy. or nearing it. just remember if you does happen to pass them that she might want to get back at the dude by just tagging along like he wants then killing him in his sleep when she gets a chance.

theres a rogue in my group who happened to take a little girl from here family and kill her dad and burn down her house. i being another pc. gave her a weapon and sad kill him. she attemped to swing at him. he then proceeded to tell her all about timing. and that she should learn when to take her swings. needless to say the dm is most likely going to end up killing him in a few sessions. i do plan on giving her a poison and just simply saying timing.

stuff like this should have a reprocussion. especially if they think they can just arbitrarilly go around and take slaves.
Shavit
03-19-06, 05:47 AM I'm not sure, but isn't there a torture system in the Book of Vile Darkness?

There is.
I think due to his lack of magical abilities torture is the most probable way he can break and domainate people, but I for one won't let my players torture anything.
Not even in evil campaigns.
LCD2YOU
03-19-06, 07:50 AM There is.
I think due to his lack of magical abilities torture is the most probable way he can break and domainate people, but I for one won't let my players torture anything.
Not even in evil campaigns.AndSounds a little twistedIs where I chalk this discussion up. What are the reasons to play such a sick and twisted game?

Now I have villians who do such things but PCs? Even PCs who have fallen under madness/insanity or have been broken themselves have done things like this, but not under normal characters for the players. To each their own but this is starting to get scary.
Witch
03-19-06, 07:57 AM As long as your players are mature and not mixing it up with reality, torturing won't cause any problems.
babelon
03-19-06, 08:13 AM If you look at the history of slavery, the only thing that was really needed was a few thugs and the will to carry out some physical abuse. After beating resistant slaves, most will fall in line. Any that don't are simply killed. They are slaves after all and viewed merely as things. Your PC can simply get more slaves.

And if your PC really wants slaves why go to the trouble of breaking them, just purchase them. That is what most slave owners did.
dungeonmasterblog
03-19-06, 10:12 AM This might be a discussion for anothe thread, but what's the point to all of this. Is it really D&D? I'm with LCD2YOU. I'd never allow something like this in my campaign, nor would I want players who would consider it.

Dungeon Master
http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
Witch
03-19-06, 10:14 AM It is D&D.
The guy is just roleplaying a sicko.
That does not mean he himself really is.
LCD2YOU
03-19-06, 10:20 AM True, but there are somethings that are just creepy. This is one of them.

Far be it from me to try to stop anything about what concenting and properly informed adults do in the privacy of their own home. Still, I think this is more a matter for the mature boards at the very least.
Zodd1888
03-19-06, 02:35 PM LCD you are being a bias DM, all DM's should remain neutral for the good of the party so as to allow them true free will. Just because one of them is becoming a psycho doesn't mean they all will. Plus I'm pretty sure the universe and party system balances themselves out. In most campaigns I play in whenever someone goes loonie tunes they generally get killed by the party themselves due to either greed (evil characters) or morales (good characters).

And the best torture system I can think of is the insanity point system that is in unearthed arcana or BoVD. I can't remember which.

Seriously people, Man Hunt is way worse then pretend torture when you roll for breaking someones toes...
FriendoftheDork
03-19-06, 02:51 PM There is no system that I know of that describes what the player wants, except perhaps some of a torture system I came along where by repeatedly failing will checks against torture and refusing to bend you could come to a point where your will is totally lost.

However, this is extremely brutal and time consuming, and probably not what the player wants.

In this case I'd roleplay the victims resistant at first, especially if these actions are illegal, but if the society accepts this behavior then she might lose all hope and not even think of running away. Despair alone can break a person and keep them in slavery.

(Disclaimer: If you're faint of heart or have experience with RL slavery you might want to stop reading).

As for the actual method involved: Kidnap the woman in question and either make threat against their loved ones or kidnap them as well. If the victim refuses to obey you can use physical abuse to force them to obey right away, and tell her that if she runs away or talks to the authorities they will kill her loved ones - children are the most effective, but even parents and siblings will do.

The combination of physical abuse and threats will break almost any person in the end, and this method is used in RL in our own societies.

Personally I think playing this out won't be fun.. unless the PCs are the ones trying to stop it. But if the players are mature and serious about it, it could work though.
Edwind
03-19-06, 08:02 PM Thanks for all this input, of course some of you seem that I should just kill him and be done with it, but I don't want to resort to that. If it gets a bit out of hand then yes I will put a stop to it but he's thought this through rather seriously. Todays game his character woke up and went to check on the women. After watching her for a few minutes getting herself out of the bindings she began to scream for help but a quick Bluff stopped that attempt.

Then he began thinking on how to bring her under his will. From what he's told me torture has come across his mind more then once and he actually considered doing it right then and there but it seems the Player does have a darkside and plays his Rogue quite well to that extent. He plans on taking some ranks into Craft (Alchemy) and is planning on forcing her to take drugs and eventually become addicted. He's looked in the BoVD and found one thats easy to make, but she can't just go and buy it whereever she goes, I think hes going with Dreammist. It was a good idea and pretty creative on his part. Eventually he plans on doing this to a number of women and eventually is going to start up a brothel, either kidnapping them from their beds or going to the local pub and bringing them home to the same fate.

Any ideas where this could go afterwards thats not so...negative as the ones your thinking of right now?
Innomado
03-19-06, 11:33 PM You might want to check out the Mature Topics board. The people there are sure to have ideas or references that can help you out.

Some of them have surely been in games where a character (theirs or someone elses) did the same thing your player wants his to do.
Edwind
03-21-06, 12:30 AM Alright so theres THAT Idea, now one would just have to wonder where I could find this and figuring out how one could get into them after hearing some people have had problems doing so

Edwind
Lina_Inverse
03-21-06, 12:59 AM I know he could just use dominate person but he doesn't have access to that spell..Or any spell like that for that matter. He's a NE Rogue, but the things he's been up to we both agree he's shifting to CE and will eventually end up there in a session or two

Edwind, your not getting the whole law/chaos axis are you?

Takeing anothers freewill is NOT an evil act.
It is a LAWFUL act.

Lawful good is just as happy to use dominate person as lawful evil.
Chaotic Evil thinks dominate is a horrible nasty fate to befalls someone as much as Chaotic good. He wouldnt save someone obviously, but he does believe in freewill. Chaotic Evils kill people who dont do what they say, not twist there minds.
Edwind
03-21-06, 01:10 AM he doesn't plan on using any spell like that. Like I've said he doesnt have access to anything like that and would prefer not to use magic cause it could go wrong or be dispelled. He wants nonmagical control over them which is something he's been doin to that poor women since he wisked her away after killing her husband, brother, and children that night a few days ago.

Edit: I get what your trying to say though, It makes sence but I'm pretty sure he wont be going LE anytime soon, actions like this every once and a while wont change him due to the other things he does every game or so. I believe his kill count on children is...6 or 7?
Witch
03-21-06, 08:01 AM Takeing anothers freewill is NOT an evil act.
It is a LAWFUL act.

Yeah, in D&D it might be, weird system :)

But I do tend to think of CE people as people who will do anything, -anything- to get what they want. So they will still use Dominate Person, if they need to.
zlatko
03-21-06, 08:49 AM Handle animal? :devil:
Vennettai
03-21-06, 10:59 AM dude this charecter sounds great to me. you shouldnt punish him for doing something he thought up that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. cause it happens every day. i think some people need to realize that this is on the cute and fluffy side of sadistic.

in a present campaign a freind of mine killed a guy burned down his house and stole his child. when she asked weres here dad. he said i killed him. and im burning down your house. now being the inventive dm that my friend is he is going to let the girl be raised by the guy and hopefully kill him.

just be inventive and quit thinking everything is cookies and cream.
Nobody_
03-21-06, 11:20 AM Why do you need rules for this?

He would never know if her will was broken, and chances are, that no matter hat he did, there would never be a quick solution to such a thing. If he wants a slave, he has to treat it like a slave, and that means not trusting her farther than he can throw her.

Look at real life. It takes many, many years of horrific abuse and attempts at running away befoere a person is truly broken.

However, if you really want a rules check here, consider this. It takes a 50 on a diplomacy check to make someone go from hostile to friendly, but that is not the same as breaking them to your will. So I would say that he has to role a 50 on his intimidate check, and a 50 on a diplomacy check, both at the same time, in order to get this individual to do ANYTHING. Anything less, and the girl would make escape attempts at varying intervals.

-Nobody
FriendoftheDork
03-21-06, 02:48 PM Edwind, your not getting the whole law/chaos axis are you?

Takeing anothers freewill is NOT an evil act.
It is a LAWFUL act.

Lawful good is just as happy to use dominate person as lawful evil.
Chaotic Evil thinks dominate is a horrible nasty fate to befalls someone as much as Chaotic good. He wouldnt save someone obviously, but he does believe in freewill. Chaotic Evils kill people who dont do what they say, not twist there minds.

? This has no basis in D&D alignments. I have no idea where you get this from. CE evil characters value only one freedom - their own. They don't mind enslaving others.

Hurting and OPPRESSING others is an evil act. Not lawful. A LG character would be hard pressed to justify dominating another, just as he would be hard pressed killing them or forcing them to do something they don't want to at "gunpoint".

I can see dominating an evil orc to stop hurting innocents is a good use of the spell, something LG characters could approve of. Of course even chaotic good characters could do that.

Some characters though, regardless of alignment simply loathe mind-affecting spells for some reason, and would rather kill someone or be killed himself than be dominated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edwind 03-18-06, 08:52 PM	My PC has come up with the idea of kidnapping women and turning them into slaves, but he can't get his hands on some kind of item to gain them under his control so he asked if he could "break their will" and generally remove their freewill and basically she just does whatever he says. Any ideas or systems anybody have that would help me in this situation? I'll post my idea when I have more time, but I would like to see if there is any systems already out there first. Thanks Edwind
Chybi 03-18-06, 09:11 PM	I'm not sure, but isn't there a torture system in the Book of Vile Darkness? I don't have it anywhere near me, but I vaguely remember something along those lines.
cvazi 03-18-06, 09:13 PM	Dominate Person? (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)
dungeonmasterblog 03-18-06, 09:14 PM	Sounds a little twisted. Dungeon Master http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
Lina_Inverse 03-18-06, 09:38 PM	Hes lawful right? IF yes theres stuff on this in the book of exalted deeds/book of vile darkness. Generally its alot of intimidate/diplomacy checks, lots of them. Or you can just use dominate person and be done with it.
Mist of Shadows 03-18-06, 09:45 PM	I suggest finding new people to play with. There is the thral of red wizards class :) There are a few spells to do it. There is the tried and true killing one of the people messilly and in front of the rest to scare them and cause he sounds like a jerk. Honestly have the local paladin come in and kill them. I suggest having them capture the local archmage's daughters and then watching as they die. This sounds to me like you shouldn't be running this type of game. I know I would kill the characters if they started that crap. That being said the book of vile darkness has the things you want.
HalasterAteMyHamster 03-18-06, 09:47 PM	BoVD has two items for this purpose - the Master Ring and the Slave Ring. Suffice it to say, the wearer of the MR mess up a wearer of a SR.
Edwind 03-19-06, 01:50 AM	I know he could just use dominate person but he doesn't have access to that spell..Or any spell like that for that matter. He's a NE Rogue, but the things he's been up to we both agree he's shifting to CE and will eventually end up there in a session or two Its an Evil game, thats why there acting like this (probably should have said that before) I kinda want a system that doesnt cost uber gold to do. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of iunno, wisdom/intelligence checks whenever he puts her through something which I'd rather not say due to cencorship but it involves a room of Half Orcs. I don't want to just kill them because that would ruin the point of the game. Again, is there any kind of system or rules someone has seen or come up with themselves?
Vennettai 03-19-06, 04:05 AM	people can be subjected to only so much trauma before they break. id say just make will checks for the stuff hes doing. after a few fails the girl will become completly crazy. or nearing it. just remember if you does happen to pass them that she might want to get back at the dude by just tagging along like he wants then killing him in his sleep when she gets a chance. theres a rogue in my group who happened to take a little girl from here family and kill her dad and burn down her house. i being another pc. gave her a weapon and sad kill him. she attemped to swing at him. he then proceeded to tell her all about timing. and that she should learn when to take her swings. needless to say the dm is most likely going to end up killing him in a few sessions. i do plan on giving her a poison and just simply saying timing. stuff like this should have a reprocussion. especially if they think they can just arbitrarilly go around and take slaves.
Shavit 03-19-06, 05:47 AM	I'm not sure, but isn't there a torture system in the Book of Vile Darkness? There is. I think due to his lack of magical abilities torture is the most probable way he can break and domainate people, but I for one won't let my players torture anything. Not even in evil campaigns.
LCD2YOU 03-19-06, 07:50 AM	There is. I think due to his lack of magical abilities torture is the most probable way he can break and domainate people, but I for one won't let my players torture anything. Not even in evil campaigns.AndSounds a little twistedIs where I chalk this discussion up. What are the reasons to play such a sick and twisted game? Now I have villians who do such things but PCs? Even PCs who have fallen under madness/insanity or have been broken themselves have done things like this, but not under normal characters for the players. To each their own but this is starting to get scary.
Witch 03-19-06, 07:57 AM	As long as your players are mature and not mixing it up with reality, torturing won't cause any problems.
babelon 03-19-06, 08:13 AM	If you look at the history of slavery, the only thing that was really needed was a few thugs and the will to carry out some physical abuse. After beating resistant slaves, most will fall in line. Any that don't are simply killed. They are slaves after all and viewed merely as things. Your PC can simply get more slaves. And if your PC really wants slaves why go to the trouble of breaking them, just purchase them. That is what most slave owners did.
dungeonmasterblog 03-19-06, 10:12 AM	This might be a discussion for anothe thread, but what's the point to all of this. Is it really D&D? I'm with LCD2YOU. I'd never allow something like this in my campaign, nor would I want players who would consider it. Dungeon Master http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
Witch 03-19-06, 10:14 AM	It is D&D. The guy is just roleplaying a sicko. That does not mean he himself really is.
LCD2YOU 03-19-06, 10:20 AM	True, but there are somethings that are just creepy. This is one of them. Far be it from me to try to stop anything about what concenting and properly informed adults do in the privacy of their own home. Still, I think this is more a matter for the mature boards at the very least.
Zodd1888 03-19-06, 02:35 PM	LCD you are being a bias DM, all DM's should remain neutral for the good of the party so as to allow them true free will. Just because one of them is becoming a psycho doesn't mean they all will. Plus I'm pretty sure the universe and party system balances themselves out. In most campaigns I play in whenever someone goes loonie tunes they generally get killed by the party themselves due to either greed (evil characters) or morales (good characters). And the best torture system I can think of is the insanity point system that is in unearthed arcana or BoVD. I can't remember which. Seriously people, Man Hunt is way worse then pretend torture when you roll for breaking someones toes...
FriendoftheDork 03-19-06, 02:51 PM	There is no system that I know of that describes what the player wants, except perhaps some of a torture system I came along where by repeatedly failing will checks against torture and refusing to bend you could come to a point where your will is totally lost. However, this is extremely brutal and time consuming, and probably not what the player wants. In this case I'd roleplay the victims resistant at first, especially if these actions are illegal, but if the society accepts this behavior then she might lose all hope and not even think of running away. Despair alone can break a person and keep them in slavery. (Disclaimer: If you're faint of heart or have experience with RL slavery you might want to stop reading). As for the actual method involved: Kidnap the woman in question and either make threat against their loved ones or kidnap them as well. If the victim refuses to obey you can use physical abuse to force them to obey right away, and tell her that if she runs away or talks to the authorities they will kill her loved ones - children are the most effective, but even parents and siblings will do. The combination of physical abuse and threats will break almost any person in the end, and this method is used in RL in our own societies. Personally I think playing this out won't be fun.. unless the PCs are the ones trying to stop it. But if the players are mature and serious about it, it could work though.
Edwind 03-19-06, 08:02 PM	Thanks for all this input, of course some of you seem that I should just kill him and be done with it, but I don't want to resort to that. If it gets a bit out of hand then yes I will put a stop to it but he's thought this through rather seriously. Todays game his character woke up and went to check on the women. After watching her for a few minutes getting herself out of the bindings she began to scream for help but a quick Bluff stopped that attempt. Then he began thinking on how to bring her under his will. From what he's told me torture has come across his mind more then once and he actually considered doing it right then and there but it seems the Player does have a darkside and plays his Rogue quite well to that extent. He plans on taking some ranks into Craft (Alchemy) and is planning on forcing her to take drugs and eventually become addicted. He's looked in the BoVD and found one thats easy to make, but she can't just go and buy it whereever she goes, I think hes going with Dreammist. It was a good idea and pretty creative on his part. Eventually he plans on doing this to a number of women and eventually is going to start up a brothel, either kidnapping them from their beds or going to the local pub and bringing them home to the same fate. Any ideas where this could go afterwards thats not so...negative as the ones your thinking of right now?
Innomado 03-19-06, 11:33 PM	You might want to check out the Mature Topics board. The people there are sure to have ideas or references that can help you out. Some of them have surely been in games where a character (theirs or someone elses) did the same thing your player wants his to do.
Edwind 03-21-06, 12:30 AM	Alright so theres THAT Idea, now one would just have to wonder where I could find this and figuring out how one could get into them after hearing some people have had problems doing so Edwind
Lina_Inverse 03-21-06, 12:59 AM	I know he could just use dominate person but he doesn't have access to that spell..Or any spell like that for that matter. He's a NE Rogue, but the things he's been up to we both agree he's shifting to CE and will eventually end up there in a session or two Edwind, your not getting the whole law/chaos axis are you? Takeing anothers freewill is NOT an evil act. It is a LAWFUL act. Lawful good is just as happy to use dominate person as lawful evil. Chaotic Evil thinks dominate is a horrible nasty fate to befalls someone as much as Chaotic good. He wouldnt save someone obviously, but he does believe in freewill. Chaotic Evils kill people who dont do what they say, not twist there minds.
Edwind 03-21-06, 01:10 AM	he doesn't plan on using any spell like that. Like I've said he doesnt have access to anything like that and would prefer not to use magic cause it could go wrong or be dispelled. He wants nonmagical control over them which is something he's been doin to that poor women since he wisked her away after killing her husband, brother, and children that night a few days ago. Edit: I get what your trying to say though, It makes sence but I'm pretty sure he wont be going LE anytime soon, actions like this every once and a while wont change him due to the other things he does every game or so. I believe his kill count on children is...6 or 7?
Witch 03-21-06, 08:01 AM	Takeing anothers freewill is NOT an evil act. It is a LAWFUL act. Yeah, in D&D it might be, weird system :) But I do tend to think of CE people as people who will do anything, -anything- to get what they want. So they will still use Dominate Person, if they need to.
zlatko 03-21-06, 08:49 AM	Handle animal? :devil:
Vennettai 03-21-06, 10:59 AM	dude this charecter sounds great to me. you shouldnt punish him for doing something he thought up that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. cause it happens every day. i think some people need to realize that this is on the cute and fluffy side of sadistic. in a present campaign a freind of mine killed a guy burned down his house and stole his child. when she asked weres here dad. he said i killed him. and im burning down your house. now being the inventive dm that my friend is he is going to let the girl be raised by the guy and hopefully kill him. just be inventive and quit thinking everything is cookies and cream.
Nobody_ 03-21-06, 11:20 AM	Why do you need rules for this? He would never know if her will was broken, and chances are, that no matter hat he did, there would never be a quick solution to such a thing. If he wants a slave, he has to treat it like a slave, and that means not trusting her farther than he can throw her. Look at real life. It takes many, many years of horrific abuse and attempts at running away befoere a person is truly broken. However, if you really want a rules check here, consider this. It takes a 50 on a diplomacy check to make someone go from hostile to friendly, but that is not the same as breaking them to your will. So I would say that he has to role a 50 on his intimidate check, and a 50 on a diplomacy check, both at the same time, in order to get this individual to do ANYTHING. Anything less, and the girl would make escape attempts at varying intervals. -Nobody
FriendoftheDork 03-21-06, 02:48 PM	Edwind, your not getting the whole law/chaos axis are you? Takeing anothers freewill is NOT an evil act. It is a LAWFUL act. Lawful good is just as happy to use dominate person as lawful evil. Chaotic Evil thinks dominate is a horrible nasty fate to befalls someone as much as Chaotic good. He wouldnt save someone obviously, but he does believe in freewill. Chaotic Evils kill people who dont do what they say, not twist there minds. ? This has no basis in D&D alignments. I have no idea where you get this from. CE evil characters value only one freedom - their own. They don't mind enslaving others. Hurting and OPPRESSING others is an evil act. Not lawful. A LG character would be hard pressed to justify dominating another, just as he would be hard pressed killing them or forcing them to do something they don't want to at "gunpoint". I can see dominating an evil orc to stop hurting innocents is a good use of the spell, something LG characters could approve of. Of course even chaotic good characters could do that. Some characters though, regardless of alignment simply loathe mind-affecting spells for some reason, and would rather kill someone or be killed himself than be dominated.