Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pegasos989 08-05-07, 02:35 AM	Well, this is not very urgent question as I am not currently DMing a game in which it would be likely to come up soon. It might come up in some game though and I am somewhat curious... How should a DM handle a situation in which players (okay, player characters) want to break into some jewelry/magic item/other similar shop to earn some extra? If they get only amount equal to the loot they would have gotten from the CRs of the guards, traps, etc. anyways, they haven't actually had any benefit from the break in. If they get a lot of more wealth, they will break the guidelines by a level or two. At that point, the balancing act would propably be to give less loot untill guidelines apply again but then they wouldn't have gotten any financial benefit from the break in... Only thing I can think of as a solution would be to get them slightly ahead of WBL guidelines but while they stay near, they would be hunted by the local authorities enough to balance it out (as they would need to buy items protecting from scrying, etc.) but even that feels a bit lame...
Guardian Phoenix 08-05-07, 02:39 AM	Yes, make it the adventure. If they complain that after all this planning to get loot, they're still about where they would be according to WBL, remind them that if they had sat around doing nothing, they wouldn't have had the money at all.
Audious 08-05-07, 02:41 AM	I say just make it a reality that they could be caught in the process, and thrown in jail for quite some time. Or otherwise unable to return to that town and possibly surrounding towns. Think of the reasons you don't steal in real life.
Kouk 08-05-07, 02:51 AM	Why should robbing a store prove vastly more lucrative than raiding a dragon hoard? Same as whatever they would normally be able to get for the challenges they overcome. Rather than items and such, it may be in gems and art objects and jewelry, which will "sell" for full price rather than half though (if they can find a fence). This actually results in more cash than if they looted a sword they couldn't use and sold it for half value.
Pegasos989 08-05-07, 03:44 AM	Why should robbing a store prove vastly more lucrative than raiding a dragon hoard? Good point. I actually thought "If they do something specifically to gain wealth, it propably should do that well" but then again, most of the things they would do would anyways earn them much... Same as whatever they would normally be able to get for the challenges they overcome. Rather than items and such, it may be in gems and art objects and jewelry, which will "sell" for full price rather than half though (if they can find a fence). This actually results in more cash than if they looted a sword they couldn't use and sold it for half value. Good idea, thanks.
Me, Myself, & 101 others 08-05-07, 03:46 AM	Generally speaking, there will very seldom be anything resembling a 'magic item shop.' While players can generally buy something magical, subject to DM approval, the chance that they got it by walking into 'magic-mart' are pretty much nil. Magic items would be sold by their creators, such as powerful temples, high level wizards, and the like. Or they'd be in the hands of private citizens who have decided to part with them (family heirlooms, retired adventurers, ect). If the PC's go to rob the magic store, they're gonna spend a lot of time wandering town aimlessly looking for a shop that doesn't exist. As for gem/jewelry merchants, they would only have actual shops in fairly large cities. Cities generally mean town guards and patrols, who could possibly catch the PC's in the act. A gem merchant is going to make enough money that they could also afford some basic magical protection (alarm spells and the like come cheap) and possibly even a guard or two overnight. There's a pretty good chance that they also belong to guild, and a guild as rich and powerful as a gem conglomerate would have it's own enforcement branch, and might use them to patrol the districts where their members' shops are located. To rob something like a gem merchant's shop, they would have to avoid detection by up to three different groups of people on the look out for stuff like that, one of whom might actually be on the premises. They would have to disable/bypass whatever mundane and magical locks and traps the merchant felt sufficient to protect his livelihood. Then avoid detection again on the way back out. It should not be easy. Then, once the crime is discovered, there are suddenly several parties interested in finding the PC or PC's responsible. There's the merchan himself, of course, plus his guild (which, again, likely has large resources). Also included are the watch/town guard, and the local thieves' guild(s), who will be upset that someone is poaching on their territory and preying on a business that probably paid them protection money. Some of these groups have the resources available to use detection and scrying spells or items, and also trackers and similar mundane methods (perhaps bloodhounds, did they think to cover their scent?). If they're dumb enough to try and sell their loot in-town, they're found out. It's just automatic. They go to a fence, the fence reports to the thieves' guild, who probably tells the other groups (the law and/or merchants) to broker favor and goodwill. They go to another merchant and that merchant reports to his guild, who will also contact the authorities. If they go to another city, there's still a chance they'll have trouble depending on the distance and the relationship the local groups have with the groups in the town of origin. It's entirely possible that some or all of it turns out to be too "hot" to move, especially for large valuable or conspicuous pieces. If they're caught, they could be attacked, forced to pay resitution, fines, be imprisoned, and/or other punishments. If they're found out and manage to escape justice, it could easily ruin their reputation, possibly in a large area. Their will be bounties, rewards, wanted posters, all that. In short, it's generally more trouble than it's worth. Now, all that not withstanding, I've no problem with the characters being above the wealth-by-level chart. The chart is meant as a guideline, that's all. If they're above it, just adjust the encounters appropriately and there's no problem. I have absolutely no problem with the party making extra money, as long as they're not ruining the fun of the the other players and they're being smart about it. A player saying, "I go rob the gem shop," generally isn't being smart, though. They're usually being dumb and juvenile, and unless the entire party is composed of sneaky thief-types they're probably ruining the other player's fun because they gotta sit and watch while one player tries to knock over some merchant's shop.
Thubby 08-05-07, 04:20 AM	if it is a magic shop, its going to have one crazy high level wizard in it who made at least some of them. think what he would do to make sure you DONT get in.
Vaelan 08-05-07, 04:24 AM	Encounters before and while breaking into the store: more wealth than indicated due to the store. Encounters as a consequence of breaking into the store: less wealth than indicated due to the fact that the PCs are too strong to take on without ridiculous amounts of consumable resources that are used before the PCs even know the people are there.
Pegasos989 08-05-07, 04:49 AM	if it is a magic shop, its going to have one crazy high level wizard in it who made at least some of them. think what he would do to make sure you DONT get in. Nah. Well, I don't agree with that necessarily, mostly because the shop you buy milk from doesn't necessarily have a farmer with a cow in the backroom. But anyways, I didn't mean a magic item shop selling all kinds of high level magical items, +5 longbows on the shelves next to helms of brilliance. I don't think these would exist. Just because of unlikeliness of someone coming to buy a helm of brilliance tomorrow it would not be a profitable business. However, there are some magic items that you can always trust to have market. Practically all common potions (cures, invisibility, etc.) could certainly be sold in decent enough amounts to actually be profitable in big cities. Atleast in a shop that sells other stuff too, such as expensive material components (identify components cost 100gp and there will always be someone buying them), scrolls, etc.
Drausktanchache 08-05-07, 09:19 PM	I'll put in my opinion: Ultimately the WBL table is a mere guideline of what they should roughly have. I personally would love it if the PCs spent time, studying the land, researching times, festivals, busy days, empty days, etc, and making a plan. They should be rewarded if it succeeds, and if it fails, then they are screwed. Still every D&D campaign seems to revolve around the PC's Reputation and fame of a good sort. There are outlaws, and their are thieves, if the party wanted to play this and make more money than what normally would be allowed I will reward them. If they worked for it, they deserve it. I mean I wouldn't roll over and let them do it easily, they would have to plan carefully...even make sure they knew the times the patrols changed. Its no cakewalk for either party (DM or PCs) but In my opinion if done properly it could result in a very interesting and attractive storyline.
Suavo 08-05-07, 09:47 PM	It depends on how much you want to deal with this situation in the future. If the party succeeds then they are likely to do it agian. Or if you prove to them that it isn't as lucritive or perhaps more trouble than its worth then they will be less likely to try it agian. Take for example the magic shop of Chukk Yukk Tukk who sells bogus magic items. Or say they pull it off and get out with a great haul well then there is a few problems. Now that you have these items how will you get them out of town, what if what they steal is large and cumbersome. If they stay in town how do you cash this stuff in where do you trade it at. Now the city guard knows there is a thief on the loose and will conduct an investigation. What level are they are they high or low if thier low develop some magic security devices that will surprise them nestuls(sp) mystic aura or the aura that creates a false magic field. Some animated objects, or traps that trigger if they are taken too far from the shop unless a command word is spoken. If they are higher level throw some moral delemmas in thier path. Give the shop keeper a family and have one of his or her children witness the act unless the party is truly evil they won't kill or kidnap the child. Or amongst the money put a letter from a debt collector stating he is comming to collect in a few days and have thier haul add up to just short of what he owes. It is all up to you and how much you want to deal with this in the future.
Necrosis 08-05-07, 09:54 PM	could be a great hook if the shop is already paying protection money to another crime organisation. Feel like a mafia war anyone :).
Thubby 08-06-07, 12:45 AM	Nah. Well, I don't agree with that necessarily, mostly because the shop you buy milk from doesn't necessarily have a farmer with a cow in the backroom. But anyways, I didn't mean a magic item shop selling all kinds of high level magical items, +5 longbows on the shelves next to helms of brilliance. I don't think these would exist. Just because of unlikeliness of someone coming to buy a helm of brilliance tomorrow it would not be a profitable business. However, there are some magic items that you can always trust to have market. Practically all common potions (cures, invisibility, etc.) could certainly be sold in decent enough amounts to actually be profitable in big cities. Atleast in a shop that sells other stuff too, such as expensive material components (identify components cost 100gp and there will always be someone buying them), scrolls, etc. thing is, i highly doubt they are the first to try, and the guy has lasted this long, fending off god knows who. one gets stronger from that. (and it would be stunning to find the guy selling milk wasn't a farmer) not to mention to run such a shop would require a lot of money to start, this guy would have access to some of the best defenses ever (using his own stock if necessary). and a VERY good reason to have them. whatever level you decide to make him, he would likely have several times the wbl worth of equipment.
Amon_WinterfallIV 08-06-07, 03:30 AM	WBL is a good guideline to keep the game working. Its much more of a "benchmark" than a "rule". The PCs should be somewhat close to the WBL, or else you need to adjust their CR--an Overgeared Party needs harder challenges, and an impoverished party needs weaker ones. About the shops: Any Magro-Mart is going to be selling items far more expensive than other shops. Even low-powered Magic Items (Like +1 weapons and Armor, 2nd level potions, etc) are worth a sizeable fortune compared to the people of their day. This kind of shop is going to be protected far better than a restaurant or a grocery store--protected like a bank, jewelry store or security company's HQ. If this Magro-Mart is selling +5 weapons, its loaded with resources, and its going to pull out all the stops against any thieves. It'll plane shift them to Hell or send Iron Golems or something vicious.